UK Ground fatality, gyro crew charged?

[Hognose]

This article in the Telegraph makes little sense to me:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4964432/Two-held-after-huntsman-killed-by-gyrocopter.html


Two held after huntsman killed by gyrocopter
Two men have been arrested on suspicion of murder after a huntsman was killed by a light aircraft called a gyrocopter.


By Matthew Moore
Police are investigating whether the pilot of the gyrocopter – which is like a small, open cockpit helicopter – flew into the victim as he followed the Warwickshire Hunt yesterday afternoon.

The aircraft had been given special permission to land at Long Marston airfield in near Stratford-upon-Avon, Warwickshire, before the collision occurred.

The dead man was named by friends as Trevor Morse, a keen hunt supporter in his late 40s.


Can any of our British friends shed some light on it?

The link shows a picture of the unfortunate Mr Morse and a second picture shows a two-seat gyro sitting upright. The gyro appears to be an MT-03 which is black. Registration callsign doesn't show -- it's been painted out either on the scene or on the photo, presumably for the privacy of the owners.

This is an absolute disaster for the sport, and the tone of the Telegraph article doesn't help. The Telegraph is not a dodgy tabloid, either, but a staid and responsible paper (to the extent that there is any such thing), unless it's changed radically since last I was in Britain.

Concerns for the sport can be put aside for now. My heart goes out to the family and friends of Morse.

A murder charge seems out of line, but I don't know what evidence the police have (or how such charges work over there, these days). Criminalizing accidents is foolish, especially when the accident was simple human error, but also even when the accident was due to negligence. There are enough real criminals, people who step out intent on crime, to keep the world's police and courthouses hopping. And ultimately, I have more faith in the ability of the AAIB to get to the bottom of this than I do in the cops.

But as always after a fatal, much more and clearer information is needed before any judgment is appropriate.

regards

-=K=-

[karlbamforth]

I have no knowledge of this incident and can find nothing more on the internet at present.
But chances are it is tabloid hype, it appears that the Telegraph have almost cut and paste the story from the Stratford Herald which is the local News rag.

It is very unusual for anyone, even with a smoking gun to be arrested on the suspision of murder in such a short time frame. They are more likley "helping the police with their enquiries".

Indeed the only police statement is thet "it is too early to be sure what happened". For police to arrested someone for murder based on that they would almost certainly end up in court themselves.

Time will tell.

[Hognose]

Here are some more stories I googled up:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5877904.ece

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Copter_pair_held_for_hunt_murder&in_article_id=574485&in_page_id=34&in_a_source=

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160724/Two-men-arrested-suspicion-murder-pedestrian-following-hunt-killed-low-flying-gyrocopter.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/09/police-investigation-gyrocopter-death-hunt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/coventry_warwickshire/7933734.stm

The Times story implies that anti-hunting activists had been buzzing and harrying foxhunters from a gyroplane. This may be the missing piece of the puzzle; Mr Morse was a member of the hunt. For some years now hunting has been under tight restrictions in Britain.

The other stories suggest that the gyro was grey, not black as I thought, and that the poor guy's wife saw him struck and killed. The Daily Mail includes a file photo of Jim Logan's N28TA (!), and the Guardian has a fairly accurate capsule description of what a gyro is.

Eh. A rotten business all round.

cheers

-=K=-

[Hognose]

Thanks for the in-country comment Karl.

cheers

-=K=-

[EI-GYRO]

Fox hunting; Definition: The unedifying in pursuit of the inedible.

Sad business.

[fiveboy]

Its very sad indeed for everyone. I would bet a dollar against a donut that the victim walked up to it while everything was spinning to confront them.

[bpearson]

Fox hunting; Definition: The unedifying in pursuit of the inedible.


Or a fine British sport whose ban was brought about by blind class hatred rather than reason. We don't seem to mind dogs hunting rats do we?

Anyway, not the argument is it!

[Dave Fairbrass]

Sad news.
Looks like contact with the prop caused fatal injury.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Gyrocopter-Death-Two-People-Questioned-After-Aircraft-Hit-And-Killed-Hunt-Supporter-In-Warwickshire/Article/200903215238186?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Te aser_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15238186_Gyrocopter_Death%3A_Two_Peopl e_Questioned_After_Aircraft_Hit_And_Killed_Hunt_Su pporter_In_Warwickshire

[Tex~N~Oz]

Sad news.
Looks like contact with the prop caused fatal injury.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Gyrocopter-Death-Two-People-Questioned-After-Aircraft-Hit-And-Killed-Hunt-Supporter-In-Warwickshire/Article/200903215238186?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Te aser_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15238186_Gyrocopter_Death%3A_Two_Peopl e_Questioned_After_Aircraft_Hit_And_Killed_Hunt_Su pporter_In_Warwickshire

Hi Dave
What makes you believe it was a prop strike? After closely studying the picture of that link, I can see that the front of the pod has been covered to preserve evidence and that would more than likely be blood platter. There also appears to be a river of liquid in front of the gyro which may be the victims blood as well, and if so, it is in front and to the left of the gyro.

To me it appears the victim was stuck by the main rotor, probably to the head/neck area causing instant death and profuse bleeding.

wouldn't this be a very unusual attitude to keep the rotor when not in flight?
It does indeed look as though it may be an intentional "run down" with the rotor blade, striking the deceased on purpose.. How absolutely unfortunate and sad for everyone involved if this proves to be the case.

This just reminds me that the human life is the most valuable thing on Earth and to lose even one prematurely is sad, but to have it done purposely is even more disgusting. Once someone is gone there is no bringing them back and they will be terribly missed by their family for their lifetimes.

[barnstorm2]

To me it appears the victim was stuck by the main rotor, probably to the head/neck area causing instant death and profuse bleeding.

It does indeed look as though it may be an intentional "run down" with the rotor blade, striking the deceased on purpose.. How absolutely unfortunate and sad for everyone involved if this proves to be the case.
.

Its very sad indeed for everyone. I would bet a dollar against a donut that the victim walked up to it while everything was spinning to confront them.

My experience lead my first thought to be the same as Five's.

I think I would have a hard time chasing someone down taxing my gyro around with spun-up blades. If they laid down prone the best I could do would be to run over them. I doubt if I could sneak up on them!

However, at least a few times each flying season I have to yell at someone who is walking right at my spinning blades (typically, smiling and oblivious) wanting to tell me something.

With the scant evidence (if media info can even be called that) we have my donut money is with Five. I think the victim had a 'piece of mind' to share with the gyro pilot that spoiled his hunt and walked right into the blades.

.

[Tex~N~Oz]

I think the victim had a 'piece of mind' to share with the gyro pilot that spoiled his hunt and walked right into the blades.


I too hope this is the case and it does make more sense.. The only thing that made me think it could be intentional is that the blades would have to be pushed forward to hit someone at that position to the front of the gyro. If someone was running towards you, wouldn't you try to shift the rotor? Again they may not have seen his charge.. It's all speculation on everyone's part, but I still hope it wasn't intentional.
I just thought it odd they arrested the pilot and passenger unless they had very strong suspicions it was no accident, but this is the UK and things may be different there.

[helipaddy]

More info, including a short bit of video


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/coventry_warwickshire/7934804.stm

[greg spicola]

If it is shown that this pilot used his rights and flight privileges to harass people enjoying there rights to hunt then this guy should be monkey stomped and thrown under the jail! this will forever shine a dark light on Gyros to some people.

[Hognose]

Senior investigating officer Det Supt Graeme Pallister said:"The investigation is still at a very early stage.

"We are working to establish the circumstances of yesterday's incident and to find out how and why Mr Morse died."

I guess we can't ask for more than that.

I also doubt a deliberate run-down. I can see a copper or a groundling of any kind thinking it might be a possibility, but people aware of gyro physics and disinterested in the outcome of the case should soon set them right.

But it will be harder to figure out if the operator was reckless or negligent. British law, now that I think of it, can go pretty hard on errors. There was a UK TV documentary that I have on disc somewhere, in which a controller is held criminally responsible for a human error leading to a jetliner midair -- it's a hypothetical, not a real case. Most US jurisdictions don't throw the book at human error this way (we leave it for our civil courts and the nation's oversupply or rapacious ambulance chasers to ruin the guy's life).

The two aboard the gyro have to be extremely shaken by this, even if the law clears them. I've noticed that the psychological damage (if any) from traumatic experiences hinges a lot on the state of preparation of the person. The Veterans Administration seems to be learning that special operations guys and combat marines and whatnot are at lower risk for PTSD than people in "milder" clerical positions, exposed to the same traumatic experience -- the combat arms guys are trained and prepared for it, so they deal when it comes. Psychologists say they have had "stress inoculation." The average weekend pilot has not.

I am vaguely aware of the strong and bitter feelings in the UK between anti-hunting elements and country-sport enthusiasts and the mutual demonization that takes place -- the animal rights people think the hunt followers are brutal subhumans, and the hunt folk think the rodent rightists are anarchistic ecoterrorists. Neither gives the other credit for a shred of human decency.

From reading the UK press on this, the hunt guys have made a gracious statement about a tragic accident, but haven't gone so far as to express sympathy to the pilot and passenger. The antihunting groups, meanwhile, appear to have clammed up (lawyered up?). If they were seeking confrontation, looks like they're going to have it. Pity they had to drag a gyroplane into their activism.

If the pilot was flying a Permit to Fly aircraft for hire he's probably done being a pilot, even if the CAA doesn't ground him for buzzing. If some group was reimbursing him they're probably on the liability hook for the death of Mr Morse, even under Britain's more sensible (than the US or Canada) tort laws.

Again though, this is all speculation, and the cops have spoken: we'll have to wait for them to figure this one out, wait and see.

cheers

-=K=-

[helipaddy]

Might be interested in keeping an eye on this thread

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/365357-anti-chops-hunt-supporter-3.html

And scroll down on this:

http://www.hunting-directory.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1230198208/0

[Dave Fairbrass]

Tex

Prop strike - after studying the photo issued by sky news it looks like at least one of the prop blades is badly damaged. I guess the shrink wrap is in place to keep the weather off, that's what has been used to tie the blades to the keel as well.

Just my theory

Dave

[wnwgj]

Certainly not good news for gyros - what a shame that its capability for aerial observation has been publicised in this way. It was a v windy day yesterday in the UK. I reckon the pilot must have landed and put the stick into the wind giving a low rotor tip path on one side that caught this unfortunate person out. The wind was strong enough to tip an MT-03 over without doing this. What the hunt chap thought he was doing running around a live taxi way I'm not sure though from the reports it looks possible that the pilot had previously broken the 500ft rule even if only by virtue of being too close to structures like fences. The horses won't have liked it much either - low flying Apaches drive them mental around here.

[Gyro_Kai]

Hello,

I would think prop strike as well. If you move the stick way forward in an MT03, the rotor is pretty level. So frontal run-down with rotor is not likely.

However you must have good eyes, I cannot see a prop damage :)

Kai.

[Chris L]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/7934804.stm

The bottom blade of the prop looks damaged in the video..go full screen at about 28 seconds in.

I live close to the airfield and know it quite well. It would be very easy to drive on to the airfield and approach the gyro...its very quiet during the week and I very much doubt that the pilot expected anybody to be around.

From what I have heard, the hunt supporter had gone over to confront the pilot about him buzzing the Hunt... I guess he approached the gyro from behind and got caught by the prop....Time will tell.

What ever happened its very sad that another death is linked with gyros.

[greg spicola]

Yep definitely looks like prop strike

[bpearson]

Black props are invisible when turning. I'm going to paint the end of mine yellow! Been meaning to do it for years.

[DennisFetters]

OK, lets say the pilot was buzzing the hunting party. He was wrong to do so.

But, what fault is it of the pilots when some guy he can't see runs up to his aircraft, uninvited, and runs into the prop? Why would he be taken in for manslaughter? Or why would the thought even come up?

He may get in trouble with the CAA for poor judgment in the way he was flying, but if the incident is as described, he will walk from any manslaughter charges, as it should be.

[fiveboy]

OK, lets say the pilot was buzzing the hunting party. He was wrong to do so.

But, what fault is it of the pilots when some guy he can't see runs up to his aircraft, uninvited, and runs into the prop? Why would he be taken in for manslaughter? Or why would the thought even come up?

He may get in trouble with the CAA for poor judgment in the way he was flying, but if the incident is as described, he will walk from any manslaughter charges, as it should be.

If I yell fire in a movie house and people die in a stampede I have contributed to or committed murder.

Perhaps (in England) if you provoke someone to an action through irresponsibility and it results in their death.... you are suspected of murder as well. That would seem logical.

[EI-GYRO]

FYI

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4968610/Hunt-supporter-killed-by-gyrocopter-after-confronting-animal-rights-activists.html

[Resasi]

A very sad day all round.

I can see both sides of pro and anti hunting. Both sides have been know to be passionate about their own view of the situation and in this case both sides contributed to this ending the way it did.

When people get extreme, people get hurt and can die as a result.

[DennisFetters]

If I yell fire in a movie house and people die in a stampede I have contributed to or committed murder.

OK. You are the one yelling fire. You did so intentionally as a prank if there was no fire, so yes you are responsible.

Perhaps (in England) if you provoke someone to an action through irresponsibility and it results in their death.... you are suspected of murder as well. That would seem logical.

OK, a guy gets mad at me for driving badly, he jumps out of his car and runs across the freeway to give me a piece of his mind, and gets hit and killed by a truck. It's not my fault. It's the same thing here.

No one forced him over to an active aircraft, he approached it on his own decision. He didn't have to, but he decided to, on his own, not that it was life or death and he was trying to get away from something from hurting him. He chose to go over there and confront the pilot.... in an operating aircraft, uninvited.

I know you have an opinion, and I'm not trying to change the way you think. I'm just respectively debating with you with my take on it.

[All_In]

Like Dennis, I'd tried to imagine, how could you charge someone for murder, when he ran into you?

The only circumstances I could come up with is if the pilot actually tried to taxi into him perhaps trying to chase him away or maybe the pilot thought he was going to be beat up and solely tried to flee and ran into him?

I have no clue, but very strange....

[fiveboy]

DENNIS/JOHN

That was not an opinion it was a theory. Except that the guy ran into it and the deceased felt provoked, none of it makes any sense. I was just trying to build a logic bridge to a conclusion.

[All_In]

None of it makes any sense, is right!!!

[DennisFetters]

DENNIS/JOHN

That was not an opinion it was a theory. Except that the guy ran into it and the deceased felt provoked, none of it makes any sense. I was just trying to build a logic bridge to a conclusion.

Robert, I know. Mine is only an opinion too. In reality, you could be right as rain for what I know about this situation. Just bouncing theories around here, for the sake of a friendly debate.

[wnwgj]

There's some further info on another forum that sheds some light on what MAY have happened. It comes with a health warning from the original poster that it is third hand, but from someone who allegedly witnessed what happened:

"From a third hand source and based on an eye witness account, this is what is alledged to have occurred at Long Marston. The hunt supporter is said to have approached from the front of the aircraft after pulling up in his Land ( or Range) Rover with his wife at the fuelling bay. The pilot(s) who were confused by what was going on apparently shouted to the man to move as they were pulling away, he approached the front of the craft shouting back "you are going nowhere." Again it is said that the pilots were heard to shout to move as they were taxiing and again he apparently repeated "you're not going anywhere."

It is then believed that he approached and tripped over the rear wheels where the blade unfortunately struck his head, however he did momentarily stand up, albeit with a severe head wound before falling down backwards to the shock of all present including of course his wife."

[Tex~N~Oz]

Oh this is not good... :(
If they intentionally ran into him, whether or not he was impeding their way, it will be the chopping block for them. Not only are the pilots in huge trouble, but now so is their cause.. Killing people to save foxes will not go over well with the masses.

[karlbamforth]

Tex,

It doesn't say they ran into him.

It says he approached the aircraft and tripped over the wheel falling into the prop.

If he was attempting to prevent the aircraft leaving, he was breaking the law. If he was on an active airfield without permission he was most probably breaking the law.
One article states they were on the runway or taxiway, what the hell was he doing there ?

Lets all wait to see what really happened.

[Tex~N~Oz]

Karl,

I believe we'll find the evidence is stacked against the pilots on this one.. How does one approach from the front, trip on landing gear while running towards the pilot/passenger AND fall into the prop? He would have to run PAST them and trip on the landing gear and fall into the prop..
Most likely he was stationary and the landing gear tripped him as he attempted to hold the gyro and he fell into the prop..

IMO that's what's happened...

Yes, he was most likely in breach of the law by impeding the traffic at an airport.
However, you will not find any judge, or jury, who will feel that justifies vehicular battery leading to homocide. They knew he was there, they could have stopped and/or shut off the engine.
You will also find the pilot will be held in contempt for operating an aircraft too close to people, for unlawfully protesting a lawful event, and I'm sure they'll stack a whole heap more on it before it's all said and done..
We have one man dead, a campaign to save the fox in dire straights, two perps STILL in jail (and they have to have good reason to hold keep em)...
So now the fox hunting judge and the fox hunting prosecutor is going to send the cheap gyro flyin' fox-hunter killers to jail.. If you can't see this already you need glasses because fox hunting in the UK is a "class affair" and the broke-a$$ plebs aren't invited.
I'm thinking somone needs to break out the high heels, skirts, and astro gel because it's not looking good..
*rubbing crystal ball* "I SEE two salads being tossed and there's no lettuce involved"

Again, just MY OBJECTIVE THEORY based on my past dealings in law enforcement..
I'm not trying to be a soothsayer... Well except for the crystal ball/salad thingy.....
Otherwise I don't have a subjective opinion on this matter.

[Hognose]

One of the British newspapers linked here yesterday claimed a witness saw the decedent stand in front of the gyro on the taxiway, and then the pilot ran him down. He was not killed instantly -- he stood back up -- but they made no attempt to render assistance and let him bleed out.

But that's only one report among many and it does not ID the witness by name. IF some witness is saying that, it explains why the rozzers still have the two gyronauts in the can.

I agree with Dennis that a pilot can't be held responsible for a groundling wandering into his prop or rotor (although he'd probably feel responsible), but if it were a simple accident, I think we all agree that the cops would have let up by now. They have not. That's an indicator that they have something.

In the US the gyro pilot might be able to dodge the rap by saying he felt threatened, but in the UK there's really no right of self-defense any more. You can shoot a guy who's in the process of cutting you up with a knife and the British courts will jail... er, gaol... you. In Texas they give you the key to the city.

One more indicator, for the criminal case: the animal rights group has clammed up completely -- they have the right of course, but it's not the act of aggrieved innocents who think the public is on their side (remember that the hunt ban passed Parliament, so there's strong sentiment for it. These "hunts" today follow a scent trail laid by hunt supporters, not a live fox). It's the act of a frightened conspirator.

Which raises the question: why do the animal rights guys try so hard to disrupt the hunt, a hunt that doesn't even chase foxes any more? It seems to me their problem is less that they love animals and more that they hate the idea of other people having fun doing something they don't like. All of us who fly for any length of time have encountered groundlings like that, people who are really bothered that we enjoy something that they do not, and would take the enjoyment from us if they had the power.

Bottom line is, you've got to be profoundly sick to love animals enough to kill people. I can see why these sickos chose a gyro -- they're sick, not stupid -- but they've caused us all kinds of bad publicity.

I'd like to see some gyro guys using this "teachable moment" (as "community organizers" say) and instructing the press about gyros. I do note that most of the press stories have gotten the description of what a gyro is right. There hasn't been any of the usual "small helicopter" nonsense.

cheers

-=K=-

[Tex~N~Oz]

One of the British newspapers linked here yesterday claimed a witness saw the decedent stand in front of the gyro on the taxiway, and then the pilot ran him down. He was not killed instantly -- he stood back up -- but they made no attempt to render assistance and let him bleed out.

By my agreeing with the above statement as the most probable scenario, my popularity will no doubt be hitting an all time low.. :violin:
I honestly can understand the sentiments of the average gyronaut on this forum and the absolute disgust that everytime the gyro is in the news for any reason, it's bad, and this time its appauling. Not only to the damn things kill us one at a time, they work as a lethal weapon too..

Yesterday I was visiting a flying club, talking with a CFI today and mentioned the gyroplane..... needless to say the feedback wasn't good.. that's an understatement, the feedback was worse than that. For me it was really disheartening because eventually this will become a group of my peers and I have to overcome not only the "normal" negative press, but now this too.. It was brought up. I can already see I'll be the "outcast" that does my own thing without common mates, or I'll have to really work to bring some guys over.

In the US the gyro pilot might be able to dodge the rap by saying he felt threatened, but in the UK there's really no right of self-defense any more. You can shoot a guy who's in the process of cutting you up with a knife and the British courts will jail... er, gaol... you. In Texas they give you the key to the city.

No chance on any account.. Once it's proven you've antagonised the victim, there are no extenuating circumstances. Therefore, if you intentionally provoke someone to draw a gun on you, then you pull your own and kill him.. You've just commited murder.... even in Texas.

One more indicator, for the criminal case: the animal rights group has clammed up completely -- they have the right of course, but it's not the act of aggrieved innocents who think the public is on their side (remember that the hunt ban passed Parliament, so there's strong sentiment for it. These "hunts" today follow a scent trail laid by hunt supporters, not a live fox). It's the act of a frightened conspirator.

This just knocks me... all this time I thought they were still chasing lil foxes around the paddock.. Come to find out they are just pretending to chase lil foxes... Why would anyone care???? Who gives a rats-a$$ if they're chasing a scent bag!!!???? or even care enough to KILL SOMEONE over it!!
That is some really sick disfunctional stuff right there..

Good post mate..

[Resasi]

There are animal rights activists, and hunt saboteurs here that lose all sight of rationality and perspective in their pursuit of what of what 'they personally' think should happen.

The words fanatic and extremist springs to mind

[John Fonseca]

So this person was indulging in a "FINE BRITISH SPORT" as someone put it. I wonder what the fox would think of that? "FINE BRITISH SPORT?" Jesus Christ!!

[brett s]

So this person was indulging in a "FINE BRITISH SPORT" as someone put it. I wonder what the fox would think of that? "FINE BRITISH SPORT?" Jesus Christ!!

They don't even hunt real foxes anymore there, they follow artificial trails. Get a clue...

[greg spicola]

John read back a few posts now days fox hunting is more an exercise of Working Dogs and Working Horses.

[bpearson]

So this person was indulging in a "FINE BRITISH SPORT" as someone put it. I wonder what the fox would think of that? "FINE BRITISH SPORT?" Jesus Christ!!

Same as the millions of rats, mice, and other vermin that are exterminated every year I suppose but we don't get all emotional about them do we?

[bpearson]

They don't even hunt real foxes anymore there, they follow artificial trails. Get a clue...

Well, we are supposed to, but to be honest most hunts ignore this stupid bit of class hatred legislation.

[bpearson]

http://onlinenews.warwickshire.police.uk/appeals/2009311Manchargedfoll

[Chippydriver]

Looks like murder after all

http://onlinenews.warwickshire.police.uk/appeals/2009311Manchargedfoll

[bpearson]

Looks like murder after all

http://onlinenews.warwickshire.police.uk/appeals/2009311Manchargedfoll

I presume you mean 'charged with murder'. I cannot believe this was murder but can well believe that it was percieved as murder.

[Resasi]

If he was deliberately run down then yes it would be.

John people all over the world hunt, some for food some for sport. I do not think hunting is unique to the British. But just in passing who described it as a 'Fine British Sport' Pray do tell?

I did hunt for sport though at the same time for food. I eat what I shot and what I caught when fishing.

I now shoot clays for sport, tag and release when fishing. I do believe that animals have a right to be humanely farmed and raised, and dislike gratuitous cruelty to man or beast. However also feel extremism is not tolerable either.

[Chippydriver]

Refer to link

[bpearson]

John people all over the world hunt, some for food some for sport. I do not think hunting is unique to the British. But just in passing who described it as a 'Fine British Sport' Pray do tell?



I did. Problem being Leigh?

[Resasi]

No problem at all Brian just wondering where he got the terminology. He sounded rather sarcastic.

[bosca]

All is fair with fox hunting.The fox has no morals,have you checked your hen house lately.Dozen of chooks killed for the fun factor.Lambs eaten while the ewe is giving birth.A good fox is a dead fox.
These urban cowboys need a reality check.
Kym.

[fiveboy]

A complete aside: The term Red Herring comes from the fact that in order to get the dogs off the scent they used to drag a red herring (fish) behind a horse on a rope all around the hunt grounds. Thus when someone is led astray by a false trail it has come to called a red herring.

People who free lab rats are no different than any other zealot.
What frosts my pumpkin is that they will jump over homeless people to do so!

I have a real hard time believing that this pilot did this on purpose though.

Castigating all gyros as a result would be like holding all gun owners responsible when there is a murder.... oh wait a minute....!

Bad news all around. We can play CSI all we like but hopefully the truth will come out. As I have already stated. S A D no matter what happened.

[Resasi]

Rob although I have heard of the term I never heard of an actual Red Herring or of its use as a drag scent propagator and or hunt confuser.

But I do think you are purposely dragging one across this thread right now. :)

[Timchick]

If the eyewitness was one of the pro-hunting group of course they're going to say the gyro ran into the deceased. Given time we'll find out what really happened. I've learned to doubt the accuracy of late-breaking news accounts.

[karlbamforth]

No matter what the police say it is not murder until proven in court. Innocent until proven otherwise.

I may be wrong but I thought murder had to be premeditated, not spur of the moment. There is no way the pilot could know the vitcim would be there, approach him or attempt to stop his aircraft, indeed it is illeagal for him to attempt to stop an aircraft. Therefore no premeditation.

If the pilot failed to stop in time when he saw the man approaching is not murder. With the rotorblades stationary he would be safe to approach up to about 4 ft from the side of the cockpit. The time it would take to cover the last 1-2 feet so to be within the landingear track and prop arc is seconds.

The fact he had been following the hunt has no bearing really, if he stayed above 500ft he was perfectly entitled to do so. Everyone is assuming he was anti-hunt but so far I see no evedence of that. He may have been an enthusiast who wanted to combine his hobby of gyros and following the hunt.

As always folks, lets wait for the investigation to be completed.

[fiveboy]

Rob although I have heard of the term I never heard of an actual Red Herring or of its use as a drag scent propagator and or hunt confuser.

But I do think you are purposely dragging one across this thread right now. :)

@ RESASI: All true! Thats the actual origin. Sorry to divert.

[Tex~N~Oz]

No matter what the police say it is not murder until proven in court. Innocent until proven otherwise.

No.. That's not exactly the way it works.. If they have exigent circumstances because of overwhelming evidence then you will be held by the legal system, even if you haven't been formally charged. Therefore you are considered a murderer until you are proven innocent by the court of law.
The "innocent until proven guilty" clause only applies to the application of punishment. They can't execute you without a guilty verdict.


I may be wrong but I thought murder had to be premeditated, not spur of the moment. There is no way the pilot could know the vitcim would be there, approach him or attempt to stop his aircraft, indeed it is illeagal for him to attempt to stop an aircraft. Therefore no premeditation.

No.. Murder is murder, premeditated or not. The only difference is the severity of the crime of murder. With premeditation in some countries you become eligible for the death penalty or perhaps it means you have no chance for parole. Murder commited with a depraved mind (without premeditation) is still murder, it just means that avenues that would normally be closed to you are left open, such as the possibility of parole and less than life prison sentences. However, you will usually grow very old in prison on a second degree murder charge.


The fact he had been following the hunt has no bearing really, if he stayed above 500ft he was perfectly entitled to do so. Everyone is assuming he was anti-hunt but so far I see no evedence of that. He may have been an enthusiast who wanted to combine his hobby of gyros and following the hunt.


I believe the pilot was already known as a member of the anti-hunting group.
That doesn't matter.
You will find that in most countries it is a punishable offense to "anger a person intended" and can cop you a huge fine even if the "angering" actions aren't illegal per se. All they have to prove is that angering someone was your goal and in this case it wouldn't be hard to do.

[Resasi]

Tex are you a member of the legal profession by any chance?

Just like the layout of your point of view.

[Tex~N~Oz]

Tex are you a member of the legal profession by any chance?

Just like the layout of your point of view.

Hi Leigh..
Former assistant deputy US Marshal, and other LE positions.
I feel I've spent years sitting in a court room.

[Timchick]

It sounds like Tex has stayed in a few Holiday Inn Express hotels.

[Hognose]

This story IDs the man (the name matches the aircraft registration) and provides limited background about him. It also notes that the whole thing was caught on video:

http://www.kenilworthweeklynews.co.uk/newsl/Long-Marston-Airfield-gyrocopter-death.5067996.jp

I wouldn't be surprised if the video played some part in the police decision.

That article also says "gyrocopter, a small privately owned helicopter...." And they were doing so well on the gyro thing.

One hopes a lot of people see this story and think, "Gee, that thing looks like it's fun to fly.... Where can I learn more?"

cheers

-=K=-

[fiveboy]

One hopes a lot of people see this story and think, "Gee, that thing looks like it's fun to fly.... Where can I learn more?"

cheers

-=K=-

Mr Nose,

In the past you have impressed me with your logic, arcane as well as eclectic knowledge and ability to communicate in a balanced way.... but you have topped yourself with this.... bald faced optimism. Very good.

Yes lets hope so.

R

[Tex~N~Oz]

It sounds like Tex has stayed in a few Holiday Inn Express hotels.

That would be right Tim!! I'm wearing my "Simply Smart" bath towel right now! :lol: Damn that was funny.. Why couldn't I have spouted that one??

One hopes a lot of people see this story and think, "Gee, that thing looks like it's fun to fly.... Where can I learn more?"

Call that tabloid and give em this forums www...

I'm wondering how long they'll store that machine in evidence... It was used in the commission of a crime and now belongs to HM.. I can't imagine she'd be interested in keeping it.

[karlbamforth]

Ok guys I SURRENDER.

Most of what we know is from the tabloids which are very unreliable.

The only person who knows what his intentions were is the pilot.

The only person who knows what really happened is the pilot.

The eyewitnesses appear to be non aviation and therefore do not understand what is going on.

To me murder is a deliberate act, if the guy was knocked down and killed its manslaughter or something similar. I still see no evidence that the pilot deliberately taxied into the victim. If he chased him down and ran him over fine then its murder but all the accounts I have seen so far indicte the victim approached the aircraft even though the pilot warned him to stay clear and fell over the wheels.

[Resasi]

A)How was the gyro pilot going to warn him with the engine running, other than waving him away which the other guy would be expecting him to do anyway.
B) If he had been harrassing the hunt he could expect at the least for the approaching guy to be pretty worked up about it and possibly ready for some aggro, so he would have been keen to get out of there.

Its was a scene set for the tragedy that in fact followed. Bad for the sport bad for him and a tragedy for the dead man his wife and family.

I guess the facts will out eventually.

[Passin' Thru]

Boil off all the dross and there's a lesson in all this; LEAVE OTHER FOLKS ALONE!
Gyro pilots got no business messin' with fox hunters.
Fox hunters got no business messin' with a moving aircraft on an airport!
I'm not sure who was the biggest fool!
I'm terribly sorry for the deceased and his family, but he was way out of line!

[Russ Hobbs]

Story time. I'm a black powder hunter, I dress in camo gear the works. So opening morning-elk season, I'm tucked into a natural blind waiting, when I start hearing this terrific noise. About this time I see this guy come out of the tree line, banging a cow bell, well the fool walks right by me, not a clue. So I reach out and grab his leg and let out the deepest roar I could muster. He screams bloody murder and takes off yelling for help. I thought I'd die right there laughing so hard.

[C. Beaty]

This guy has already appeared before a magistrate and has been remanded in custody; held without bail, and been scheduled to appear before a Crown Court in a couple of weeks for the formal indictment. The prosecution must believe they have a case and so convinced the magistrate.

All over a dumb fox.

[NoWingsAttached]

Truth is stranger than fiction...this proves it.

[Tex~N~Oz]

All over a dumb fox.

No Chuck.. not even over a fox as they were using scent bags.. Using a live fox has been outlawed.

So essentially A man was antagonized and then murdered for having a sport which included using a fox scented bag, for a few dogs and men on horses to follow around.


WHY would anyone on this forum feel empathy for the gyro pilot??!! Because he was in a gyro?? So if I jump in a gyro and commit heinous crimes against my fellow man, it's ok because after all I'm a gyro pilot?? Or perhaps it's unbelievable that someone as calloused as that could fly a gyro as a hobby? MAYBE it's because Mr. Morse deserved what he got because he and his dogs chased around a scent of a fox and pretended to hunt one.... That must be it..

Mr Morse was engaged in a legal and ethical game of "chase the fox scented bag".. He was harrassed to the point of anger. Once confrontational he was murdered..

These guys are going to prison mark my word and so they should..

[karlbamforth]

Tex,

Can you show me the evidence that any of this occurred ?

So far it is just reports in a newspaper.

Yes he has been arrested and charged with murder but I have not seen any real evidence that he harressed fox hunters, if he stayed above 500ft he can legally follow them all day every day.

Apart from him being charged by the police everything else is heresay and rumour.

Quick story,
One time in the UK a guy who lived some 5 miles from our airfield repeatedly complained that we low flew over his house. He repeatedly reported us to the CAA and even sent them photos of 3 of our aircraft flying low.

The CAA turned up and told me we had been low flying and that they had proof. After lengthy discussions to find out the times and places I was able to download the GPS clearly showing that we rarely went near his house and never descended below the legal minimum. I was then asked to explain the low flying photos, a quick drive round the airfield located where all of them had been taken directly under the approach to the runways.

Just because someone reports you for low flying doesn't make it true.

We all have to wait for the report to come out. If the AAIB have been involved which I am sure they have the investigation will be complete and impartial and certainly not based on newspaper reports.

Lets not hang the guy before he is found guilty. The lives of enough ppl have been ruined in this sad episode already.

[bpearson]

All over a dumb fox.

We have spent thousands of parliamentary hours and millions of pounds of public money getting over exited about the odd fox Chuck.

Of course it's nothing to do with the welfare of the fox but a determined attack on what is percieved as the upper class hunting fraternity by the useless Labour government. Hunting rats, fishing, Halal meat etc are ignored because they don't involve 'rich' people on horseback.

Class hatred is alive and kicking in the UK.

[bpearson]

The eyewitnesses appear to be non aviation and therefore do not understand what is going on.



They wouldn't need to understand anything. Just give an accurate account of what they saw.

I read an accident report of an Air Command crash years ago where the eye witness stated the gyro took off and climed to fifty feet before the rotor was up to speed. He happened to have been a RAF test pilot!

[Resasi]

The anti animal cruelty crowd did for a short while target fishermen, pushing them into the river. Didn't last long though. Fishermen tend not to be the stiff upper lip upper class crowd, merely climbed out and dished out a quick savage hiding. Soon stopped. Besides fish tend not to be cute and cuddly so not much sympathy from the masses.

[Tex~N~Oz]

Tex,
Can you show me the evidence that any of this occurred ?


They wouldn't still have him in custody if they didn't have adequate evidence.
I could "he said, she said" all day long but without something significant, he wouldn't have spent one night in jail, but instead, he's in jail without bail.
So there must be something to the "video evidence" that the local "tabloid" said existed.
Most murderers get offered some sort of bail, albeit very high. To not have bail offered at all just screams of the brutality the courts think took place with this murder.

[bpearson]

This is the actual machine I believe.......spot the prop!

[Tex~N~Oz]

Long exposure time on the camera while taking the film will make the prop appear to disappear even if it's very visible in person.. Yup this is Bryan Griffiths mt03 and he is the one incarcerated over the event. goto www.airteamimages.com and you can see all the pictures of his "prehomocide" gyro and a few of him piloting his craft. Keyword is G-RIFS

[EI-GYRO]

When someone gets killed in the course of a disagreement/dispute, the police will usually hold the remaining party in custody under suspicion of murder or manslaughter, as they did here, while they do an initial investigation.
If a reasonable amount of evidence is uncovered, they will often lay a charge of murder,
which may or may not be reduced to manslaughter as the trial unfolds.

The terms used differ greatly on either side of the Atlantic.
Over here, murder is premeditated, manslaughter is not, as I understand it.

I cant understand why someone would go to so much trouble and cost to disrupt
a drag hunt, but then I'm not an eco-nut. Sounds like overkill to me.

While I have no interest in killing animals unnecessarily, or for sport, I often wonder do the
anti-hunting lobby actually think animals normally die peacefully in care homes
for elderly foxes, rabbits or whatever.

Extremists often aren't big on logic.

I sometimes think these pro- and anti- people deserve each other.

To paraphrase someone else' I dont care what they do as long as they dont do it in a gyro and frighten the horses.'