Center line Thrust

[joeheli]

Theres always a discouse about Center Line Thrust.
This is a very good info on this link that I got from Mike PRA Chapter 20:

CLT info (http://www.americanautogyro.com/Centerline%20Thrust/Centerline%20Thrust%20P1.htm)

[KenSandyEggo]

That's from AAI's website.

[mceagle]

From the said article -

"In the event of the loss of power in a non-centerline thrust gyroplane, the aircraft goes into an immediate nose-up attitude. The normal pilot reaction is to drop the nose of the aircraft, which can cause a "Bunting Over." This creates airflow through the top of the rotor resulting in loss of lift or as it is commonly referred to as "unloading the rotor."

There must be other design considerations that come into the equation. I have only flown one gyro that "elevated" on power chop, and even then it did not pitch nose up (possibly because it did not have a stabilizer). It had an extreme thrust line offset.
For the rest, (guestimating moderate offsets of 5" to 7"), the response was mainly torque reaction with no significient pitch reaction. CLT on the other hand does have a significient pitch reaction to power chop. This is not necessatily a bad thing, it all depends on your point of view. The pitch reaction of CLT machines proves that there are other forces in the equation that we should be taking into consideration.

[quadrirotor]

Mceagle, CoG is aimed in case of lost of the lift of the rotor, but no one speaks of the center of drag in case of lost of thrust...

[Udi]

I think you are correct, Tim. My CLT* Aircommand is reacting to sudden power chop in a way I can't explain. When I go from cruise power to full power, I have to keep forward pressure on the stick or else the gyro would slow down about 10 mph from it's cruise trim airspeed. This tells me that the net moment change about the CG with the addition of power is nose-up (i.e. the result of a low thrust line). Something else is going on when I chop power. When I chop the power quickly from cruise setting, the nose goes up slightly. :confused:

Udi

* I have not confirmed the location of the thrust line in relation to the CG.

[Doug Riley]

Udi: You mention the movement of the nose on throttle chop, but what about stick pressure, and what about airspeed?

Can you determine whether your HS is up-lifting or down-lifting?

[Udi]

Doug – I set my stock AC stab with a negative 1 degree to the engine thrust line. I have not measured the stab angle in flight. The reaction I described was with a floating stick. The nose lifted for a second and the airspeed started dropping quickly. Since I was in the pattern for landing I didn't wait to see what would happen next, I just lowered the nose for approach airspeed. I can't recall whether I have to maintain a forward or backward pressure on the stick during descent. The stick is so light that almost any position feels neutral (unless I consciously let go of the stick).

Udi

[Aussie_Paul]

... remember my tests with 3 different brands of rotor blades?

That was after I had the airframe stable, ie within an 1" or so of CLT and an effective h/stab.
I did not realise that there was so much difference between blade design and stability.

Early 2004

I thought that it was about time for a little update about the rotor tests that I have conducted during the last week.
I have flown 3 brands of 30' rotors at the same gross weight and airspeed.
These tests were carried out with Hybrid, which is very close to CLT at the testing weight.


The rotor head has a torque tube offset of 5/8". The offset was not suitable for all the blades to have a reasonable trim spring pressure but I wanted to compare the 3 sets without changing anything.

I used my adjustable stick fixed testing bar to set each set of blades at 60mph IAS.

1)Oz extruded alloy.
Needed an uncomfortable amount of trim spring pressure to trim hands off. The control stick to dash distance was 330 mm. Extremely smooth right up to 70 kts/80.6 mph. Not stick fixed stable at all.

2)Raf blades 3 years old.
Much less/almost no trim spring required, and the distance from stick to dash was 302 mm. These blades have not been tweaked and had a slight stick shake at all speeds up to 70 kts/80.6 mph. Reasonably stick fixed stable but would not meet the suggested stick fixed pitch stability standards for the LSA.

3)Oz complete composite blades. The last 3' are the VR7 airfoil with an extremely small amount of reflex added by lifting the trailing edge approx 1 mm.
A little more trim spring required than the Oz alloy, and the stick to dash distance was 325 mm. These blades are basically shake free at 60 mph but cabin shake started to appear the faster I went. Tested to 70 kts/80.6 mph. Better in stick fixed stability than the Oz alloy but not as good as the Raf.

22/4/04

4) I now have the third generation Patroney blades. These are the same as 3) but have the same airfoil all the way along. We seem to have our positive pitch stability back and are still 200 engine rpm better off than the original Patroney generation blades. These blades are the most efficient blades, with hopefully enough stability to meet the sport gyroplane stability standards, when they are accepted, that I have flown.

BUT, we have not finished yet. The rest of the testing will be conducted on Firebird to match the disc loading, blade loading, torque tube offset, trim spring pressure etc to the Firebird that we will be marketing.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

....I believe, whether rightly or wrongly, that all factors have to be addressed to achieve the ultimate result. Less than ultimate does not mean danger though.

The coupling of all the forces should be no different than that used to design fixed wing aircraft. When the engine is cut the drag, weight, lift forces that are still acting, should automatically lower the nose to maintain airspeed. The opposite with an increase in power.

I believe that Magni are the only ones that have achieved this in a kit gyroplane. I am sure that a lot of individuals have achieved the results by adapting torque tube offsets to rotor design and airframe geometry stabs etc.

Aussie Paul. :)

[mceagle]

Paul said
"should be no different than that used to design fixed wing aircraft. When the engine is cut the drag, weight, lift forces that are still acting, should automatically lower the nose to maintain airspeed. The opposite with an increase in power"

This is a point that I would disagree with (my personal opinion). My fixed wing experience is limited mainly to Victa Airtourer and 180 Cherakee. In both cases there was not a significient pitch reaction to sudden changes in power. The changes in attitude of the aircraft were more directly related to airspeed, not throttle settings. ie when the throttle was cut, firstly the airspeed decreased and only then did the nose drop to keep the airspeed constant. Similarly when the power was increased, firstly the airspeed increased, which caused the nose to rise and the aircraft to climb.
Personally I believe this to be the correct way that an aircraft should respond.

Udi, your gyro's reactions are interesting. Possibly the engine has a downward thrust component in cruise. It would be interesting to know.

[Aussie_Paul]

Tim, you are saying exactly what I said. Just a little timing variation. I am surprised that you can remember in such detail your fixed wing flying. I can't remember mine from 1970!!!! :eek:

I think that you are getting a little picky here. I believe that we are talking about the same thing, don't you?

Aussie Paul.:)

[mceagle]

Not being picky with you Paul, just about the popular belief that Gyros should pitch instantly nose up or nose down with throttle changes.
I believe that airspeed changes should effect the gyro attitude rather than throttle changes. As I said, this is only my personal belief, derived firstly from the fact that it is easier for a beginner to absorb one thing at a time, rather than cope with a sudden pitch variation coincidental with a sudden variation in power, and secondly, because I believe that most popular GA fixed wings behave the same way.

[Aussie_Paul]

... that we are on the same page. You said, "just about the popular belief that Gyros should pitch instantly nose up or nose down with throttle changes." Where did you find that info?

That is definately not my definition of how a stable easy to fly, and train in, gyro should behave. I have always believed, and posted with my stable machines, that as you add power whether it be gradual or severe that the gyro(well all stable aircraft) will increase airspeed by a couple of knots and then the nose will rise sufficiently to maintain the original trimed air speed. The gyro then climbs at the whatever rate for that particular increase in power.

The same with a reduction of power. I certainly do not believe that the attitude (nose up or down) should be the result of high or low thrust line in relation to the CoM.

Is that where I have had you a little confused with my postings?

Chuck B. posted an excellent post in another thread. I will search it out and edit later.

Here it is, Chuck B said, "I guess it would be fair to say the stick controls attitude.

If you want to either climb or to go faster, add power and manipulate the stick accordingly.

If you want to either go slower or descend, reduce power and manipulate the stick accordingly.

A properly designed machine, with the stick locked, will automatically nose up and climb with the addition of power and automatically nose down and descend with a power reduction; maintaining trim airspeed all the while.

But there are few machines that meet that standard and some stick manipulation will be necessary.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Chopper Reid]

Is the idea to make CLT complusory for all new machines ??
What happens to the "CLT " gyro when the engine stops ??

[birdy]

You **** stirrer.Thats my job.

[Chopper Reid]

Sorry .. :p

[Aussie_Paul]

Brian, a CLT gyro will do the same as any other stable aircraft when the fan stops. Makes you sweat!!!! LOL

Seriously, the nose will lower and the aispeed will be maintained with small amounts of control input, the same as any stable aircraft. Brian you have a lot of fixed wing experience, I take it you knew that though?

Brian am I welcome to call and see you if I am flying up that way? I am due for a trip in a couple of months.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Chopper Reid]

Yes Paul, I was more thinking of these "short assed tall tail things " where the tail is so very close to the motor and as such, the wind [once the motor is stopped] hasnt much space to get to the tail. Your Hybrid has at least got the tail, where I reckon it should be.
You would be more than welcome to call in Paul, only problem is that I spend too much time away from home so its best to ring first and see if the natives are home :) Think my phone number is in the ASRA magazine .

[mceagle]

Paul, my understanding is that most CLT machines pitch nose up or nose down as a primary result of increases or decreases in power, not as a result of airspeed changes. Thre Gyro pitches before the airspeed has had time to change, the moment the throttle is moved.

[PW_Plack]

Tim,

If anything, a CLT machine should behave more like what you want. A truly CLT machine would not move its nose at all with power change, unless the horizontal stab had a negative incidence. Otherwise, it takes a thrustline BELOW the CG to create the "stable" pitch reaction to power most seem to want.

I'm not sure how much pitch change I want in a power change. Assuming I'm awake and flying at a safe altitude, I think I'd be more comfortable staying close to level, and letting the altitude rise and fall a little as I pass through thermals.

[Udi]

I experimented a little more yesterday with my Air Command response to power changes.

S/L trimmed to 60 mph @ 5600 RPM

Powered up to 6000 RPM - started climbing and slowed down to ~50 MPH

Powered down to 4500 RPM (gradually) - nosed down and accelerated to 65-70 MPH

I am a little puzzled by this strong response because the thrust line is passing thru my bellybutton, not thru my butt like the Dominator. I may have to re-pitch my stab a bit, although this kind of power-pitch response is definitely good for pitch stability.

Udi

[Chopper Reid]

I'm having trouble understanding the neccesity of the CLT thingy being made "world wide complusory " . :(
This is, as I have stated before, including me, plus the other guys I know, have over 50,000 hours up without any fatals. I'm not so sure the CLT machines have this enviable status . Reading some of the posts re CLT, its been quoted that any gyro not CLT is basically an accident waiting to happen. If this is true, then the safety record specially here in Australia where we are using them as an aerial motorbike's in all types of winds and conditions should read pretty badly. This is just not the case.
Another question is, "how many hours total time have CLT gyro's accumalated "? When you can answer me with 100,000 hours without any fatals, I will be impressed.
I would be impressed as well if I was told that the CLT thingy will prove itself and spread by word of mouth rather than legislation. As has been proved many times before, If you want to fragment a group and cause people to become rebels, legislate ! An example here in Australia was CB radios where it was determined that you should need a licence to operate one of these radios. All that happened was that it made in a stroke of the pen, some 20,000 people operating illegal. A few years later, it was determined that a "licence" wasnt needed. Yipee for common sense.
I just think that with good instuction, a non CLT gyro can be flown in perfect safety. :D

[birdy]

Brian mate,the trouble on this forum is theres two distinct typs of gyronaughts.This is healthy solong as theres a mutual respect. :)
One side wants a machine they can cruise A to B,hands free at altitude with little controle inputs and generaly fly S&L.
The other half is useing it more as an arobatic bike,with alot of stick and throttle changes.
The one thing in common to both sides is safty,and coz they are distinct in the fly'n style,there are different needs in handling charactureistics to obtain safty and controlability.
The aim should be for both sides to see eachothers different needs. ;)
The majority of one side being in one country and the other side being in another isn't help'n the situation. :(
The yanks probably think of us as knowall ferel rednecks,same as we think of them as knowall arogant yanks.

Joke you blokes,just a joke. :p ;) :D

[PTKay]

"Horses for courses"

I am the A to B pilot at the moment an would rather fly
a Magni or SparrowHawk, than Birdies ferell.

But I agree Birdy, live and let live !!!

PTKay

PS.: I was supposed to do a business round trip of 500 miles
across Poland, but the weather will probably stop me anyway
from flying and I will have to drive. This is the reality of aviation...........
:mad: :( :(

PTKay

[quadrirotor]

CLT is not the magic solution to the inbeded instability of the sport gyro!!!! I better see a classic analysis of the stability of this aircraft, with wind tunnel analysis, and flight domain widening by a test pilot and a knowledgeable team of aerodynamics engineers!!!! The only definitive solution i know to solve this problem of instability is the use of an OFFSET HINGED BLADE ROTOR!!!! but the people involved in sport gyro are not willing (or knowledgeable enough...) to come so close to the helicopter...

[MikeBoyette]

Hey Andre'
Do you ever have anything positive to say? I am just wondering how many of your designs are flying? I suspect none since you allways have nice pictures of what could or should be according to you. I have yet to see a real machine you have designed,built or flown.

[quadrirotor]

Did you ask to your father before posting?

[Chopper Reid]

CLT is not the magic solution to the inbeded instability of the sport gyro!!!! I better see a classic analysis of the stability of this aircraft, with wind tunnel analysis, and flight domain widening by a test pilot and a knowledgeable team of aerodynamics engineers!!!! The only definitive solution i know to solve this problem of instability is the use of an OFFSET HINGED BLADE ROTOR!!!! but the people involved in sport gyro are not willing (or knowledgeable enough...) to come so close to the helicopter...

Interesting stuff there. Look, I'm not against stability, but the current thinking is badly flawed by the simple facts of hours flown by non CLT gyros here in Oz .I have quoted 50,000 hours and thats not a typo !! The true hours are most likely greater, without a fatality !! I'm certainly not knocking anyone who wants to fly a CLT gyro, in fact I welcome it as proof of the pudding is in the eating and the more CLT gyros there are flying, the more people will see the results first hand and only hours flown will determine CLT's future.
Stan, undoubtly Birdy is a very good pilot but I know of at least 10 other guys flying non CLT gyro's in the same conditions that Birdy flies in including myself .I dont rate myself as a great pilot and I'm sure that not all the other pilots are all great pilots.
I agree with you Birdy totally BUT, for the life of me, I cant see why we all have to conform to the CLT thingy.
I know I'm ignorant but if safety is the issue then why isnt there a push to controll the power of learners in gyros . Like here in Oz, you are limited to a 250 cc motorbike for the first year or two, then and only then, are you allowed to ride a more powerfull machine. This legislation has resulted in the fatality rate dropping considerably yet here in the gyro world, there is no limitations on power and I have a feeling that this is what gets some in trouble, specially newcomers who have a hankering for speed without understanding the sensativity of flying a gyro !!

[Udi]

...The true hours are most likely greater, without a fatality...
Except for the people who died? Or do you mean there were no fatalities in the selected group of musteres?


...I'm certainly not knocking anyone who wants to fly a CLT gyro, in fact I welcome it as proof of the pudding is in the eating and the more CLT gyros there are flying, the more people will see the results first hand and only hours flown will determine CLT's future.
The proof IS in the pudding. In the US there was not a single death, to the best of my knowledge, due to gyro stability issues in CLT gyros. Of course people will always die in any design do to stupid reasons, like running into obstacles, mechanical failures, etc. The Dominator is a clear-cut proof that CLT completely eliminates the problem of PPO. People who fly HTL machines like the old Air Commands and the RAFs still PPO.


...Stan, undoubtly Birdy is a very good pilot but I know of at least 10 other guys flying non CLT gyro's in the same conditions that Birdy flies in including myself .
You, Birdy and the rest of the musteres have learned to fly unstable gyros. You have developed instincts that take the place of the CLT and the stab. New pilots who don't possess your instincts are better off flying a stable gyro.


...I cant see why we all have to conform to the CLT thingy.
I agree. I am against any legislation that would require a gyro to be CLT. If the Ausies are going to legislate that, than you are no better than your cousins - the brits, who over-legislate everything.

Stable gyroplanes are easier and safer, especially for new pilots. The main issue is not whether a gyro is CLT or not. The issue is whether a gyro is stable or not. Some people enjoy riding a unicycle, and they may say that it is more maneuverable than a bicycle. That may be true, but I want the bicycle, thank you.

Udi

[C. Beaty]

I experimented a little more yesterday with my Air Command response to power changes.

S/L trimmed to 60 mph @ 5600 RPM

Powered up to 6000 RPM - started climbing and slowed down to ~50 MPH

Powered down to 4500 RPM (gradually) - nosed down and accelerated to 65-70 MPH


Udi

I would give you 10:1 odds, Udi, that should you do a double angle hang test on that machine, you'd find the CG is several inches above the propeller thrust line.

These machines are deceptive because the rotor is so far above the propeller centerline.

I have a similar response with my own gyro with the stick locked; snap the throttle wide open and it enters a climb with a similar decrease of airspeed. Chop throttle and it enters a glide with a similar increase of airspeed.

I have some 30# lead ingots that some day I'll bolt to the landing gear struts and explore changing the CG location to be more nearly on the prop thrust line.

A propeller thrust line below the CG isn't necessarily bad; it is a guarantee that you'll never experience tail heavy type response.

[C. Beaty]

I guess Cierva was just wasting his time and money mucking about with centerline thrust when there's no need for it.

The drawing below is from one of his patents.

[Aussie_Paul]

Nicely worded post Udi.

Aussie Paul.

[C. Beaty]

Here's another CL machine, the Pitcairn YO-61.

Of course the designers of machines like this couldn't possibly have known what they were doing; just simple aeronautical engineers not having chased cows for 50,000 hours.

[Chopper Reid]

1 Udi, I mean no fatalities in that group of mustere's.
2 Okay, good to see you have the pudding under controll.
3. Udi, we were all inexperienced when we learnt to fly a gyro.
4. Glad you too dont want the legislation bit !! :) I got the impression from an earlier post of Aussie Paul that CLT would be bought in as compulsory ,whatever it took.
Good point the Unicycle choice Udi, I too want there to be a choice.

Hey Chuck, I think Cierva was a bit of a genius actually. A single engined aircraft is CLT but how does a twin engined aircraft go for CLT?
I'm glad you aknowledged the 50,000 hours chasing cows cause I had the distinct impression you guys just didnt believe me.Your standing in my eyes has just taken a rise ! :)
Just a quick point in the CLT thing, having used a C172 and C182 for mustering and then using a gyro doing the same job, I found the gyro because of what it could do to be so very superior to the Cessnas in every way, particularly the quickness of response and being able to be "in front of the cows. " the Cessnas need lots of controll inputs and are as useless for mustering as tits on a bull !!. For us guys, the inherent dangers you speak about, havent become apparent to us as the gyro has done all and more than has been required of it. If I felt as exposed to the danger you say thats in my gyro, I would change its shape tomorrow . I have talked to other pilots, some who have flown tall tails and their comments have been that the gyro wasnt any more stable or didnt ride very much diferent to their gyro. It just wasnt as easy to chuck around as theirs.
Choices in what we fly is whats desirable.

[quadrirotor]

OK, so gyros are for scare expert pilots, not for sunday pilots!

[birdy]

Andre ,they can be for both.
It's just that one designe won't suit all applications.Simple.

[Chopper Reid]

Well said Birdy.

[quadrirotor]

That's what i wanted to be told!
thanks Birdy!.

[GyroRon]

Some of you guys are just too much.... Andre, I have never seen you do much posting other than throwing out pictures of dream machines. Do you fly and do you own a gyro or helicopter?

Chopper and Birdy, Let me break it down like this... I believe that a person will defend and argue and even make himself believe something as fact to back up that persons choice in ANYTHING. Take the Ford truck verses Chevy trucks for example. Some people would not drive anything other than a Ford even if the Chevys were free, no matter how good the Chevy is, or how much worse the Ford is, These same owners or Fans will make the best arguement the world has seen to show why Ford trucks are best. Same thing with Chevy guys, Toyota Guys etc...

The same thing happens with a persons favorite Sports team. I like the Miami Dolphins, but I am also willing to admit that Miami is not a really good team. But some Sports Fans think their team is the Worlds best and will go to any length to make sure you know it. Look at the riots and fighting over Soccer teams in Europe and South America!! these people take this to a extreme.

It is the same thing with religous believes and other issues such as the right for a Women to choose to have a Abortion. No matter which side your on Pro Choice or No choice, or whether you believe in Jesus or Budda, what YOU believe in is the only right way. The others must be wrong.

Maybe I am not giving the right examples, but I guess what I am saying is if you have been flying nothing but un stable gyros for years upon years and you get used to this, then that is what you know and that is what your comfortable with. you will defend your choice in machine and machines configuration till your blue in the face - I know I would defend Dominators if there was any reason to. And look that is perfectly normal and something we all do. We all get stubborn in our ways too, and can get pig headed about trying new things or accepting new ideas.

But this whole CLT issue is not hype and it is not overrated and it is not something that is " My gyro is better than your gyro " type of statements. It does not take a smart person to understand how having the props center of push on the center of mass and drag is the most efficent and safest way to design a pusher - or Tractor - gyroplane. Just imagine any gyro for a moment, and find it's COM and imagine inserting a rod horizontally through the machine at it's COM to lifting the whole machine off the ground and resting the rod on a pair of sawhorses. Take the blades and leave them on if you'd like, but all that matters is to just be in the machine and give it throttle. Doing a test like this - even if it is only a imagined test and ran in your mind or on a computer program - Proves why CLT is important. If you did this test with a RAF2000 even with the best aftermarket stab in the world the gyro would do a forward tumble so fast it would leave you speachless. Same thing with prety much any HTL gyro, they all would quickly do a forwards flip. In the air the gyro CAN get into the same conditons as it is in this test. Negative G's for just long enough, a strong downdraft, etc.... and a HLT gyro can and will do a forward tumble. This is NOT a recoverable event!!! YOU WILL BE DEAD!!! Sure proper training and lots of practice and you might fly a HTL gyro for decades with no problems. But the design of the machine is like a coiled snake ready to bite you and you are just keeping your distance but careful flying. But clearly there has been ALOT of people - mostly newbies - that DID get bit by that snake flying there HTL gyros. ALOT of gyro pilots gone forever needlessly all because of where the prop pushes on the COM of their gyros. This is the same reason we as a segment of flying have the bad rep, cause our machines can and have just fallen out of the sky and in all cases the pilot and passengers are alway dead.

Doesn't it seem almost retarded to agrue HTL verses CLT??? One can kill you by design ....the other can't.

Birdy and Chopper, what got me into this rant is the way you guys play down the importance of CLT and how you guys seemed convienced that CLT is too much a dog to fly to use for chasing cows. You guys are both high time and very experienced gyro pilots. you have been flying what is by all accounts a dangerous design machine and yet you do it hour upon hour, day after day. Your Comfortable in it as Stan Foster would say! but dam it guys... if you could muster cows with a Cessna or with a helicopter then I can't for the life of me figure out how a machine like a Dominator would not work for mustering cows. And I guess when you guys say this stuff, I just think to myself - and figure others are thinking the same thing - that your only defending your choice in machinery and your choices in gyro design etc...

And some might say that the only reason I am so much for CLT is cause I own and fly a Dominator. and that is a fair way to look at it. But keep in mind I CHOOSE a dominator cause I wanted what was apparently the safest design on the market. Not because of the way it looks or because of any other reason. I want to live to be a Granddad and I also want to be able to fly and relax knowing my gyro is not going to try to kill me if I don't pull the power back quick enough or do some other retarded piloting screw up.

I am all for peoples rights to choose what they want to fly. It is not like everyone should be flying Dominators. But there is clearly a difference in the level of safety between a gyro such as a RAF and a Sparrowhawk. just as there is between a older HTL aircommand and a newer CLT aircommand.

As for the issue of a CLT gyro is less manuverable... that is pure Bull****. I am not a super great gyro pilot, but I will make a public challenge to anyone who thinks that they can outfly me in their stabless HTL gyros. I will bet my lifes savings I am right on their tail doing everything they can do and doing it with the added safety of knowing my machine won't suddenly buntover if I get too carried away.

Last comments on this crazy long post.... Birdy and Chopper, I don't think anyone here cares what you guys fly from this point on. You have been given the information needed to figure this stuff out and make the best choice. If you decide to fly the stuff you've been flying then fine, I doubt anyone here will care. But as long as you are going to come on this forum and post what you post - anti CLT stuff or just simply downplaying it's importance - your going to have to deal with posts like this one. I simply believe HTL is too dangerous and CLT too safe for anyone to be confused on which way to go.

This forum has over 750 members and thousands more who just visit but have not yet signed up as members. I am thinking less than 100 or these members are out there right now flying gyros. There is a lot of the membership of this forum that is just lurking and learning. Newbies in other words. They need to know that there is a difference in machines, trustline placement IS important, and that although just about any gyro will fly, some are much safer than others.

[gyroman]

Ron,

I don't think Birdy has ever said he wasn't for center line thrust... at least I can't remember him saying he was against it and I know several times he has said he is for it. As for the type machine, I guess he feels real comfortable in it, I'm sure I would if I flew it every single day in all conditions.

It would be interesting though, to let Birdy fly a dominator for about a month til he got real used to it and then make a judgment on its ability to muster.

Or I would like to see a gyro roundup!!! Yee haw!!!

I do agree the main issue here is the impact all this talk has on new gyro pilots. This should be our main concern.

[GyroRon]

Birdy hasn't made any major ANTI CLT statements but he has downplayed it's importance by if nothing else making a case that CLT is no good for chasing cows. I am not picking on Birdy, it just seems like since Aussie Paul invited all the cow chasers from Oz over here, we hear the CLT isn't all it is cracked up to be stuff much more often nowadays. the cow chasers are a big influence on newbies. I just want the newbies to have the best chance of success in flying gyroplanes.

[Doug Riley]

Unfortunately, the hangar-flyin' stories everyone tells here aren't good, clean experimental evidence. We change two or three variables at a time, the classic way to screw up a scientific test.

Most critically, CLT and HS are two very different things. They tend to appear (or be absent) together on a given machine, however. As a result, the comments about HS often really have to do with CLT, or vice versa.

In a high-thrustline, non-CLT machine, there's a continuous nose-down torque applied to the frame as long as power is on. In such a machine, unless a HS of appropriate power and bias is fitted, this torque is opposed by the rotor thrust, applied ahead of the CG. As the rotor thrust varies, it of course pulls the nose up and down. At greater than one G, it pulls the nose up. This is an unstable pitch response, by any definition. If you happen to want to pull even MORE G's at that moment, then perhaps you view the nose-up pitching reaction as a sort of "power assist." As the frame noses up, it pulls on the trim spring, which adds to the the back pressure you are already applying. If you hold the stick tight, you add a hard link between the frame and the rotor, producing even more nose-up "assist."

You can learn to play with this reaction in both roll and pitch. It is a lagged reaction, however, so it has tremendous potential for control overshoot -- which is what starts PIO. To use it without the craft getting away from you, you must also learn the technique of the anticipatory reverse jab to stop the exaggerated frame movement. This jab comes into play once you're done with whatever high-G maneuver you wanted to do.

So much for G's greater than one. The real danger of this type of setup is in low-G conditions. The frame's unstable pitch reactions exaggerate low G just as they do high G. That's not the worst of it, though. Both your control power and the stabilizing force that holds the nose up depend on rotor thrust; no thrust, no control AND no resistance to PPO.

If musterers spend most of their time banked and are careful with the vertical float that comes when you DO roll upright after a high-G maneuver, then they are probably at less risk of PPO than someone trying to do a straight and level cross-country at high speed in turbulence.

At least, that's what the recond of RAF crashes would seem to suggest.

I suspect that all of this (rather fuzzy) debate boils down to control pressures. A CLT machine, especially one that also has a HS, will not pitch in a direction that amplifies a G maneuver. Other things being equal, this means the CLT-HS machine will have higher control pressures.

I'd suggest that, instead of intentionally flying an unstable machine, folks who want low control pressures work on rotor head design and trim spring selection. Maybe even steal a technique from the Blackhawk helo and use a flight-controlled HS. This approach seems to me to avoid chucking the baby out with the bathwater.

[quadrirotor]

Gyroron, are you able to explain what you meant?
"Some of you guys are just too much.... Andre, I have never seen you do much posting other than throwing out pictures of dream machines. Do you fly and do you own a gyro or helicopter?"

[GyroRon]

I am asking are you a pilot? I am asking do you fly a gyroplane? I am asking do you fly helicopters?

I KNOW you like to post pictures of fancy dreamy rotorcraft. :D

[Dean_Dolph]

Ron, I believe you have a valid concern about what is posted in these forums.

There is a certain inherant responsibility to make sure that the newbie recognizes what characterizes a stable gyro and what doesn't. It has taken a number of years, the Internet and the patience and stick-tu-itiveness of Chuck B., Doug and others to get us to the point where the majority of old timers now understand the dynamics.

The fact that an unstable gyro can be flown without incident by some is not a reason to abandon the effort to continue the education of the newbie and in fact is a reason to make sure we do. Pointing new people in the right direction will assure a continued improvement in the reduction of safety incidents.

[Chuck Irby]

Andre', I asked you similar questions right after you joined the forum, back when all you could do was bad mouth the gyroplane.

Why don't you come clean and let us know where you stand? Your posts have little, if any, credibility, because no one knows anything about you. Others have told me that they rarely, if ever, read your posts for this reason.

[quadrirotor]

Gyroron;
I am a pilot.
I tried some gyros, was scared by the poor efficiency and vibrations...was scared by the fact gyro pilots do not know the limits of their aircraft: lifespan of the rotor, frequency of the first order of the vibrations of the rotor, speed at which the drag of the cabin and the weight of the rotor could be a problem of stability, and so on...
Too many gyro pilots fly on beliefs...I don't like to fly with my fingers being crossed!...
Find no satisfactory gyro!...
Tried helicos, too shaky and complex for me...the satisfactory ones were out of reach!...
My intend is to fly a gyro with a hinged four blades rotor, as it gives control on the moments in every flight domain, more less shaky...
I want a VSTOL, so a good prerotator using air-cold-tip-jets, no torque; with IFAP: In Flight Added Power for efficiency...
Not a dream, reachable with the good tools...Not really more expensive, not really very complex...

I was afraid you meant that, as i have no gyro i have not the right to speak of aerodynamics!... :D

[Chuck Irby]

Andre', a few questions please: What do you pilot? What gyros did you try? What experience do you have with aerodynamics? How can you make the blanket statements that you did about gyro pilots not knowing anything about what they fly?

[quadrirotor]

Chuck, i explained my position at that time, but if you don't read my post...

[hcaliste]

As a wannabe and a lurker, I've followed this discussion rather closely. The problem I am having here is what is actually meant by HTL or non-clt. If clt is a definable entity and clt is good, then is any thing not clt bad? A stock RAF is not clt, but from what I've read neither is a magni. But if I lumped those two gyros in the same category wouldn't I be committing gyroblasphemy? If it is just a matter of thrustline offset, then how high is TOO high? An inch? Two? Ten? Are there other factors, besides a horiz. stab that come into play that can dampen pitch oscillations? And are there any flight conditions where one factor may be more critical to pitch stability than another: e. g. low speed vs high speed, cross country vs turns and climbs. I'm starting to get a headache so I think I'll stop now.

Herbert

[GyroRon]

Herb, I have yet to fly in a magni. I can not endorse it anymore than I would endorse a RAF2000. Others believe it is a stable machine and a safe machine. To me if the thrustline is higher than the CG then the gyro CAN bunt over. If the thrustline is on the CG or even slightly below it It can NOT bunt over. It is not the stablity of a gyro or how one flys that makes one ultimately safer than another, it is can this gyro go into a unrecoverable buntover or can it not.

I HAVE flown a gyrobee and I believe it too has a HTL. It did not fly much different from my Dominator, it is considered stable, but I was and never will be comfortable flying it cause I know that it could still bunt over if given the chance.

Bottom line is ANY gyro pilot, newbie or oldtimer, is much better off flying a gyro where the thrustline is as close to the CG as possible. It is not a matter of will you bunt over, it is a matter of when you bunt over. Some pilots may go thousands upon thousands and never get there, but maybe you turn out to be the unlucky guy who only makes it to 70 hours before the buntover comes a calling your name.

In retrospect, I am with James McBirdman on the littlewing autogyros being the safest form of gyroplane we could be flying. Of course it has CLT.

[GyroRon]

Gyroron;
I am a pilot.
I tried some gyros, was scared by the poor efficiency and vibrations...was scared by the fact gyro pilots do not know the limits of their aircraft: lifespan of the rotor, frequency of the first order of the vibrations of the rotor, speed at which the drag of the cabin and the weight of the rotor could be a problem of stability, and so on...
Too many gyro pilots fly on beliefs...I don't like to fly with my fingers being crossed!...
Find no satisfactory gyro!...
Tried helicos, too shaky and complex for me...the satisfactory ones were out of reach!...
My intend is to fly a gyro with a hinged four blades rotor, as it gives control on the moments in every flight domain, more less shaky...
I want a VSTOL, so a good prerotator using air-cold-tip-jets, no torque; with IFAP: In Flight Added Power for efficiency...
Not a dream, reachable with the good tools...Not really more expensive, not really very complex...

I was afraid you meant that, as i have no gyro i have not the right to speak of aerodynamics!... :D

Not all gyros shake. the gyrobee I have access to with the sportcopter blades has less shake and rattles than my Piper Pacer airplane.

Gyros and helicopters are not a efficient way to fly period. Get over it! ;)

Most gyro blades have a unlimited life span. As long as you don't wack them into the ground or let them get corrosion or other damage, they ought to fly for the life of the aircraft.

Also most pilots of any aircraft know very little of what makes it tick. They know how to fly it and where to check the oil and whatever the manual says to check on preflight and that is it. I myself can care less about rotorblade cross sections, dynamics of one airfoil over another, the drag of my yaw string etc... I like to fly my gyro and as long as I can do so safely then I will leave the math to the manufactors and armchair genius.

I don't fly with my finger crossed in my Dominator. I will admit I am not crazy about all the places my butt is hanging in the air by only one bolt - teeter bolt and other rotorhead bolts - but do have faith in that these bolts are way overkill for the stress they are put under.

I would like a helicopter like most anyone else, but the complexity and costs aren't worth the ability to hover and besides hover a gyro can do all the normal things one would do with a helicopter, so I agree with you here.

If you want a short take off flying machine that is cheap and smooth and well understood I would look at some of the fixed wing ultralights. A Quicksilver Sprint with a powerfull engine can get airborne in about 50 feet, and can land in only about 200 feet.

I think your smart enough to speak what you want about aerodynamics. But I would like to hear more about why you think CLT is not what a gyro needs.

[gyroman]

Ron,

Before you start lumping the 'Bee into the HTL category why don't you haul Barry's over to the nearest tree and do a double hang test.

Many builders have done this and found the 'Bee to be within 1 to 2 inches of CLT.

Ralph is building a new stock gyrobee maybe he will calculate the thrustline when he's finished.

I doubt the 'Bee would sting ya...

You can read this for further info:

Gyrobee and Center Line Thrust (http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/gbclt.htm)

[Doug Riley]

Ron, a Seabee or a Phantom or a Kolb will PPO and tumble in a heartbeat... if the HS falls off. These planes aren't noted for having a "deadly high thrustline" because they have horizontal tail surfaces several times more powerful than they need to overcome the PPO tendency. The Seabee and the Phantom, at least, have the HS stuck right in the center of the propwash. The Kolb's HS is lower but the tail boom is very long for the plane's size.

Tailless flying wings, OTOH, are known PPO tumblers. The famous incident of THAT was the Easy Riser tumble at Oshkosh in the 70's. The pilot was sharp enough to cut off power after a forward flip or two and, thankfully, the wing stayed together and allowed him to recover. Rotors, of course, don't stay useable through a PPO tumble.

In the same way as the Kolb or Phantom, a Gyrobee with 50 ft.-lb. of nose-over torque is not going to PPO, period, as long as the HS is still attached.

The problem with RAF's is not merely that the thrustline is above the CG. That situation can be managed with a HS if it's not too severe. Rather, it's that the DISTANCE of the RAF's offset, combined with the amount of thrust that its large engine produces, makes it difficult to work up a HS that's powerful enough.

[GyroRon]

I know a gyrobee is not a extreme HTL machine like a RAF. But it is still a HTL. Maybe I am too worried that things that may never happen could happen....

Doug, the LAST thing I would worry about on my phantom was a buntover. And if anything like it ever happened I had the little red BRS parachute handle right above my head to grab and save my bacon. If these worked and were proven on gyros then I would be keeping my mouth shut about thrustlines and so on.

[Udi]

As a wannabe and a lurker, I've followed this discussion rather closely. The problem I am having here is what is actually meant by HTL or non-clt. If clt is a definable entity and clt is good, then is any thing not clt bad? A stock RAF is not clt, but from what I've read neither is a magni. But if I lumped those two gyros in the same category wouldn't I be committing gyroblasphemy? If it is just a matter of thrustline offset, then how high is TOO high? An inch? Two? Ten? Are there other factors, besides a horiz. stab that come into play that can dampen pitch oscillations? And are there any flight conditions where one factor may be more critical to pitch stability than another: e. g. low speed vs high speed, cross country vs turns and climbs. I'm starting to get a headache so I think I'll stop now.

Herbert
All your questions will be answered, Herbert, if you ask them one at a time. I will answer your question about Magni vs. RAF. The Magni, I was told by Greg Gremminger, has the engine thrust line set, on purpose, 2-3" above the CG. To counteract the nose-down pitching moment of this HTL, Magni has a very large stab that is pitched nose down. The prop blast is hitting the stab, creating a nose-up moment that is equal to, or larger than, the engine HTL nose down moment. The reason they set it up this way is to make the gyro more airspeed stable. A down-loading stab is airspeed stable because the force it is producing is a function of the airspeed. This is the Magni story. RAF don't have a good excuse for their dumb design, and the proof is in the pudding (and the smoking holes in the ground).

Udi

[Harry_S.]

[QUOTE

The problem with RAF's is not merely that the thrustline is above the CG. That situation can be managed with a HS if it's not too severe. Rather, it's that the DISTANCE of the RAF's offset, combined with the amount of thrust that its large engine produces, makes it difficult to work up a HS that's powerful enough.[/QUOTE]


Doug:

I have 400 most enjoyable hrs. on my RAF. At 90 hrs., I installed a KJ stab. I can attest that this stab is very effective (but heavy) and is definitely powerful enough to handle the HTL.

The only crank I have against this stab; it don't allow the flair that you can get, without it. ;)

[Aussie_Paul]

Good post Ron. Birdy has never been against stability or CLT except for them really great mustyering pilots. Brian does seem to be against CLT and stability.

Remembrer that these guys have NEVER flown Pitch stable gyroplanes. I would guess and only a guess that in excess of 90% of Oz pilots have never flown pitch stable gyroplanes. Those people are only talking S**t when they make statements. The Queensland boys were the first to go CLT many years ago. At that time they did not realis how mjuch the COM played. They were more convinced that is was only the drag and thrust line that needed to be within a couple of inches of each other. I came along with the notion from my reasearch that the COM is more importany than the drag. The ultimate being all 3 being within a couple of inces of each other.

I have been almost persecuted here in Oz for my veiws learnt from the research around the world,

Here in Oz we still have a very strong parochial dislike for other areas of the country by some people. Sometime this "dislike" will over rule common sense and physics!!!! LOL

I was the same up until 4 or 5 years ago. I then thought that the Raf with a stab was ok!!! Then the forum guys convenced me to try CLT which I did with Hybrid, and was even happier.

I believe that every newbie should be taught in a stable gyroplane, soloed in a stable gyroplane, and fly a stable gyroplane for the first matbe 100 hours. If they want to experiment after that, experience will be on their side.

I don't really give a s**t about the Birdys and Choppers of this world. :D My argument has always been to make gyro flying safer for the new people coming into the sport, not for the stubborn old "bastards". They have the skills and will never allow a HTLM to beat them.That cannot be said for beginners. For them to have a gyro that is going to help rather than hinder them. This bulls**t about learning in a less stable machine being an advantage, is just that bulls**t.

If that where the case fixed wing studenta would all be trained in Pitts specials. :eek:

Ok, now just hang fire for a minute while I go and find my "fireproof suit"!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Aussie Paul. :)

[MikeBoyette]

Andre'
I think others here have expressed the same opinion as I have. If you don't like gyros take a hike. I don't need anyone's permission to post or speak. Least of all my father's. I am an adult and if we ever meet I ensureyou I will not need anyone's permisson while I am speaking to you. I think I will treat all of your posts from now on as if you don't exsist.

[Chopper Reid]

Paul, I'm most definately NOT against stabilty, CLT or safety period !
The part that worries me most is making /forcing people to have a CLT gyro and if its going to be legislated then that really worries me.. I'm about having a choice of what we fly.
I do understand the theory behind CLT thanks to Chuck and other's who have taken their time to explain it very clearly to a dummy like me :D . I have only told of what I know [probably not much :D ] and what I and other's personally experience .
I have, unlike some other's, made my comments prefixed with my history and based on what I do with my gyro so that anyone viewing know's where I am coming from. Checking on profiles in this forum who post sometimes reveals very few gyro hours and in some cases, there are no details as of the qualifications of the person posting. Cant remember who it was but gave their flying experience which was truly incredible and said they were "beating their chest. " Not so to me, that person, [think it was Chuck Beaty ] went up in my standings caused they qualified themselves which is important in debate.
You raised something I reckon would be a real winner and sort pilots out straight away and that was the idea of training FW pilots in a Pitts Special. :cool: Now, if you can fly that skittish cat then anything would be mundane after that !! Its interesting that the debate still goes on in FW training on should spins be compulory taught ! I believe they should be, hundreds of other's will argue against ! :)
Get that fireproof suit out Paul ! :D

[Chopper Reid]

Ron, just read your post and I thank you for "ranting on" you have explained a lot of stuff there for me which I appreciate. Your point is well taken.
Doug Riley,I like what you had to say there, made lots of sense to me, just hope other's got as much out of what you said there and the way you said it. The example you quoted made me see CLT in a diferent light and I understand why its important. Than you.
Repeating myself but, "I'm not against CLT " or "safety".

[birdy]

Jeesus,the ****s hit the fan here in the last 24 hours. :eek:
Who through the ****,good old Ron.

Ron,I reckon your just kidd'n coz no one would post so much crap and be serious. :)
You are serious??, well ,you are an ignorant hypocrit. :mad:

You reckon we ozzys are stuborn,irrisponsable die hard, knowalls who can't be told..
Well,that'd be your oppinion coz you don't read posts.You said that yourself on another page.It's not supprising your the highest poster on this forum,you don't read.

I'v said many times the following,but for you,I'll say it all again.
I'v never been against safty.
..............................,clt.
..............................,stability.
............ had anything against yanks.

I have always tryed my best to ensure my posts arn't missunderstood by the newbys.If I'm talk'n bout anything out of the usual,I say so.

If my posts piss you off so much Ron,or anyone eles for that matter,don't read them.[did I just tell Ron not to read :p ]
There are some here who are interested in wot I post,mainly I think because they want to hear wot the likes of Chuck,Doug and Greg will say.
But I post here coz [B]I wan't to know,and if that pisses you off Ron,too bad.
And when you say things like "manuverability isn't hindered by stabs" your talk'n out your a...I'v flowen both my machines with and without stabs and I know the difference.
When I argued this point on another thread ,there wasn't a definate negative.One of your respected fellow countrymen even said that in certain situations it could hinder performance.But he was smart,he read the posts and coz he didn't know for sure coz he hadn't tryed it,he said could.
The same indefinate conclusion was made in the thread about the stab outrunning the rotors.
Before you shoot your mouth off Ron,git the facts right,you'll look less a fool.
I feel better now,and am hungery,but I'll be back. :D

[Chopper Reid]

I cant wait !!!! :D :D
Hope you have a big steak for tea. :D :D
I thought things were cooling downa few days ago but someone relit the fire there.

[Chuck Irby]

I figured that one would wake you up, Bird Man! :D :D :D :D

[birdy]

I'm back. :mad: :D

For the record,some FACTS on my machine.[am keenly interested in your thoughts Doug or Chuck.]
Thrust line position.Havn't tested it yet,but a blind man could see it ain't clt.
But it's not too high coz,when I hit an up draft,the nose drops slightly.
When I hit a sink,the nose raises slightly.
When in a hard bank,it dosn't try to accelerate the turn.
When I chop the throttle,theres no noticable pitch change untill airspeed has droped to bout half cruise.When I open to full tap from cruise power,the nose slightly raises.
All that is in fly'n conditions,not test conditions with the stick fixed,free or pulled out.[But probably closest to free]

Wot triggered Ron's out burst was when I said something along the lines of "a balance" instead of true clt.Well,for your interest Ron,if your still here,the balance point and the center point are not very far apart,but it dose make a big difference in some circumstances.I will not elaborate on the details coz your not interested.

I'v tryed to keep all my postings on any subjects out side of the norm on the "uncoordinated flight" thread,wich started out by saying this is not for every body.
I would have thought that was being responsable.Apparantly not. :confused:


Fair dinkum,I just don't know wot eles there is to do to try to learn off you mob without offending anyone. :confused: :(

[PTKay]

I want a VSTOL, so a good prerotator using air-cold-tip-jets, no torque; with IFAP: In Flight Added Power for efficiency...
Not a dream, reachable with the good tools...Not really more expensive, not really very complex...
:D

Andre, you are speaking out of my soul !!!

This is also xactly, what I am dreaming of.
I don't need to hover. I just need VSTOL to get from A to B as
fast as possible.
It also means to find a landing/take off spot
as near to the destination point as possible.

I follow these forums to be up-dated if something apears on the market.

But until now, hopeless, just the same crazy arguments....

Birdy,

of course everybody will tell you stability is oposite of maneuverebility.

If sombody argues that, he has no idea of the topic.

Aerobatic airplanes (or jet fighters) are exreemely unstable
by design for the sake of maneuverebility.
Some of the jet fighter are so unstable, that they can be
kept under control only by highly sofisticated
fly-by-wire computer systems.
(for example wings swept forward instead of back)

You have your "fly-by-wire" for your ferel build in by years of
experience.

Actually it makes me sick to repeat on and on the same things,
(this maneuverebility thread was here some months ago).

PTKay

[GyroRon]

Andre ,they can be for both.
It's just that one designe won't suit all applications.Simple.

Birdy this is just one of the many many times you have come on this forum and posted your slant or defense of flying your type of machine. Did I misread what you wrote here above??? Maybe so, but this short little comment goes hand in hand with what you have said all along, so that is how I took it.

And look if you want to take it to the A hole level, how about trying to spell your words in ENGLISH! maybe then I can more carefully read it. I know we all misspell a word here and there but your stuff is a mess Birdy!

I don't care what you fly Birdy. I also don't care if you are for or against CLT and Stabs. But your a influence here on the people getting into this sport and if people are to believe what you say... they will choose CLT and a Stab only if they want a slow docile learning machine, or a HTL no stab gyro if they want a machine that is able to fly in winds better - what you basically said in one or more of the wind threads - and also this type of machine is more easily manuverable so this is what they need if they are interested in hotdogging. Am I full of it? Is my assumptions totally off cause as you say I didn't read what you said? Maybe so, but believe me Birdy, I am reading into your posts about as much as anyone else, so If I see it wrong then I am sure many others do as well.

Am I talking out of my ass as to how a CLT with stab compared to a HTL with no stab flys? Why would you say that Birdy? I have flown in both. I trained in a gyro that would make you proud.... it was HTL had 200+ horsepower, not the faintest sign of a horizontal stab, and had a wonderful set of blades on it that besides the jackhammer shake would love to make the gyro dangerously ballon up at the first hint of a thermal or other turbulence. That gyro was highy manuverable but was a basket of snakes to fly. Anyone else who has trained or flown much in that machine will probably agree - how about Steve McGowan students? - But ask any one who has watched me fly, and alot of them will tell you, I can do most all of the manuvers Steve does with his trainer, with my Dominator. The stability of my machine is not stopping me from doing radical manuvers.

Also my first gyro, although very close to CLT had no stab on it either, not even a bensen type rock guard. I flew that machine for a few hundred hours before I moved on to my next gyro, which was a HTL two place but with a huge stab and much MUCH more stable than my first ship. In other words Birdy, I have flown both and although I had never seen you fly, I can imagine what it would be like and I picture it as very aggressive flying. If you had a chance to see me fly - even right after I was soloed, most gyro pilots thought for sure I was certainly going to kill myself right away due to how aggressive I flew - You would see I am not a old fart straight and level type of pilot. I like to rip a hole in the sky and have fun.

Look be mad, call me a asshole, do what you want. Your missing the point of my rants.

[birdy]

No Ron,you didn't misread that 2 line post.I mean precisely wot it said.

' But your a influence here on the people .'

I can't see how I can avoid that Ron.How do you suggest I ask questions about uncoordinated fly'n without explain'n wot I'm doing then??Don't I repeatedly say I'm talking bout UNcoordinated flight.[or words to that effect]??

I'v never said that a HTL machine is easer to fly or more manoverble.Or that anyone should fly one.

'Is my assumptions totally off cause as you say I didn't read what you said? Maybe so, but believe me Birdy, I am reading into your posts about as much as anyone else, so If I see it wrong then I am sure many others do as well.'


I didn't say that Ron,you did.
I dought everyone else would read into my posts like you Ron ,coz I think they'd read them,not read into them.

If you read the facts of me last post you'd know my machine won't balloon up in any wind.It could almost be mistaken as stable.

The difference between the two machines[with and without stabs]I flew Ron,were the same machine.I know what difference it makes to the same machine.And you can't say that dosn't make the comparasons different.

If the point of your rants isn't that you think my posts are irrsponsable,then please,set me streight.

I'm trying to find things out for my benifit,and trying to be responsable at the same time.

We got to git together with a bottle of rum and a couple of gyros Ron,I'm sure we ain't that different in our ways.

[quadrirotor]

PTkay,
"I follow these forums to be up-dated if something apears on the market.
But until now, hopeless, just the same crazy arguments...."

Until now, when you buy a gyro, you buy in fact a R&D project...But if a good dependable concept, well accepted by the commun pilot, as may be the concept of cold air tip-jets prerotator on an offset hinged four blades rotor, and IFAP, i discribed above, the industry will follow...If the noise is OK, this will be the new glory of the gyro, and then there will be no problem of PRA, magazine, etc...and the market could be widened for the small Bensen-monoseat-type gyro...
The tip-gyro could solve all the flaws, the commun pilot sees, in the gyro:
-tip driven prerotators to solve the problem of very long takes off (for the two-seats).
-offset hinged four blades rotor to solve the problem of vibrations, and above all, to solve the everlasting problem of instability as the offset hinges give full control on the moments (bunt and other...) even in a low G...
-IFAP (In Flight Added Power) for efficiency, as the rotor is not banked backwards!...

That's the only way to go!...

"DREAMS ARE THE BASIS FOR ALL REAL ADVANCES" Piazeki
http://www.piasecki.com/index.html

But if the noise is unbearable for certain areas: the simplified synchropter i proposed earlier, could be a good solution...

[Doug Riley]

Harry S., I don't doubt that the Ken J stab improved the handling of your gyro. You have the right to tout it as a vast improvement over the no-HS version. I had a similar gratifying experience when I added a factory HS to my early Air Command (the low-rider type, with inverted engine).

The HS definitely can NOT balance out the PPO moment created by an engine of the size typically used in 2-place RAF's, given the stock thrustline offset and tail length -- especially at slower airspeeds. That's a matter of arithmetic in which opinion plays no part.

If the engine creates 500 lb.of thrust and has a 12-inch offset, the pushover moment is 500 ft.-lb. If the moment arm of the HS is 5 feet, the HS must create a continuous 100 lb. down-load. If the HS area is 10 sq, ft., each sq. ft.of HS must crank out 10 lb.of down-lift... even at very slow speeds. This just isn't possible unless perhaps the whole 10 sq. ft.is immersed in the propwash and has a large negative incidence. A typical small wing at its maximum pre-stall angle of attack in sea level air needs about 60 mph of airspeed to generate 10 lb./sq. ft. (That's why small planes with wing loadings of around 10 lb./sq. ft. have no-flaps stall speeds around 60 mph.)

If the HS isn't balancing the PPO moment, then the rotor thrust is doing that job. This means the rotor thrust is pulling UP on the nose during flight. In low G situations, it's going to quit pulling UP and down the nose will go. Whether it'll go all the way over will depend on your airspeed, power setting and the specifics of your HS.

Even if the HS isn't a complete cure, it betters the odds and gives a good pilot more time to correct in a low-G event.

[Chopper Reid]

There's a few people who dont read all thats written in the posts, [I'm guilty of that too ] but someone quoted me as saying I used a C172 for mustering. Havent used a FW for mustering since 1991 !! Never said that at all ! Said that my gyro ran rings around a Fw or even a Ultralight for working.

[GyroRon]

Chopper, I said something to the effect of IF a cessna could be used - which you say it was used even if it was some time ago - then a truely stable safe gyro should do the job with no problems.

Birdy, I butt heads with you and chopper, and stan and a few others from time to time here. I can without a doubt tell you that in person around the campfire with some rum or beer or whatever else, we would all get along and have a good time.

[Udi]

...We got to git together with a bottle of rum and a couple of gyros...
Sounds like a dangerous combination to me... :eek:

[Chuck Irby]

I don't think I would want to be flying with them either, Udi, :D unless the rum was abused after the flying.

[birdy]

Wot you on about Chuck???,you put the rum in the seat..............tank. ;)

Jobs right Ron. :)
I do appreciate being corrected and critisised,but it's gota be accurate,otherwise I do wot you do,fly off the handle. :D

[Chopper Reid]

Chopper, I said something to the effect of IF a cessna could be used - which you say it was used even if it was some time ago - then a truely stable safe gyro should do the job with no problems.

Ron, I know one fellow who at odd times has used his C210 to "muster", not sure just what sort of job he did but I reckon it would have been a hoot in a 210 ! I agree with you, a truely stable gyro should be able to do the job but I'm yet to be convinced it could do it as well as what I'm currently using. There are a number of factors that come into play, one of them is ground handling. Unfortunately, most of the "strip's " I use are fairly rough to sometimes extremely marginal [rough] and I wonder if the longer undercarriage might not stand up to the stress.The gyro's most of us use are a fairly basic machine that can do lots of hours without anything failing ie, prerotators etc. These gyros have many thousands of hours of actual field expereince built into them. I'm not sure that your gyro would be as easy and as comfortable to fly for long hours either .Anyway, you are more than welcome to come over and put us to the test ! :)



Birdy, I butt heads with you and chopper, and stan and a few others from time to time here. I can without a doubt tell you that in person around the campfire with some rum or beer or whatever else, we would all get along and have a good time.

Ron, and all you other butheads...just kidding, :D :D . I would be most offended if you guy's were ever in this neck of the woods and never let me know ! :mad: I would be very pleased to welcome you for a beer or a rum and a talk and a meal !! Just because we might have a different point of view, and trade insults, doesnt mean there is any bad feeling !! I enjoy the privilege to be able to learn and talk with fellow gyro pilots. :)

[Chuck Irby]

Hey Birdy, if you can afford to burn it, you blokes must be makin your own rum down there. Is it drinkable too? :D

[birdy]

Stan,if I didn't have the occasional drink,I'd have too many friends. :D

Chuck,you don't think me gyro could do loops on petrol do you??? :rolleyes:

[Chuck Irby]

Bird Man, what I think is that you have more sense than to try a loop, period, but especially from 50 feet agl. That is your maximum altitude, isn't it? :D

[birdy]

Give it enough rum Chuck it'll do anything.
Wot you mean "50' is my maximum"???Didn't you read Stans "mile high" thread.
1020' mate.

[Chuck Roberg]

I feel sorry for those who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats the best their going to feel all day.

"Frank Sinatra"

[Harry_S.]

:D Birdy, are you and Hogan, *Dundee*, related or acquainted? :D

[GyroRon]

Steve give me a fricking break..... I am not the spelling police. I misspell more than my own share of words here. Am I a arrogant yank? I guess so. I enjoy reading Birdys stuff too even though it may not appear that way.

You said " You speak like a country pumpkin who's never travelled and lived outside the USA but worse, thinks the rest of the world is just like next door. It's an embarrassing show of ignorance. "
Well your right I guess. I have lived in the Carolinas my whole life except for a few short years I did time in Florida. I should talk like a Country pumpkin - which is normally called a BUNKIN not pumpkin - since that is how people around here talk. I didn't know WHAT was spelled WOT in Australian ;) so I guess I am just a ignorant country pumpkin asshole for assuming so.

So how is your Sportcopter coming along? Wot prop did you end up getting for it?

[GyroRon]

I thought about going, but with work and ROC coming up only 2 weeks later I can't see it happening.

You know Ernie could fix you up with a nice pre rotator for the 912. It would be a hydro unit but I think you'd like it.

I deserved to have my butt chewed. I shouldn't pick on people and that is how I am sure it looks like. I assure you what I have said here was said with good intentions.

[GyroRon]

and Steve if you talked to me in person you would NOT expect me to live in the south. Except for using a few redneck words like Yall I do not talk like a country bunkin. But living in this area may come out in some of my posts. You might see me say things like.... Yo Dog! That $hit is tight~ or Those are some Phat blades yo~ :D you see I am one of those kinds of guy that If I had a spare 10 grand burning a hole in my pocket, The wheels on my truck would still spin when I stop at the light :)

[GyroRon]

Hey here is a good idea.... Since your ship is DOA for El Mirage, why not fly over to Charlotte N.C. or Columbia S.C., I will pick you up and you come to ROC. I got a 8 person tent and so far I am the only one in it till Late in the week when John Stevens - Screw - comes in. Ernie will be there so you can talk to him about it in person. Also Scott Lewis is coming and he is the one with the 912S single place Dominator. Of course I will be there looping and rolling all week long! You really should give it serious considerations.

[Vance]

Hi Ron, I think that your humility is elegant. Thank You, Vance

[birdy]

Mmmmmm...............,Don't worry,I already got me foot init.

[bones]

chuck,
some of the best chopper flying i've seen was after 6 black tins ( bundy rum and cola about 5%).. sorry it wasnt me just watchin

[birdy]

Dundee is a soft c.ck Harry.If I did know him,I wouldn't admit it. ;)
Ever heard of a bloke called Troy Dan.??[I never heard of him ether.] :rolleyes:

Steve K,good to hear your back,where ya been. :) ??[And thanx for the defence,ol Ron was giv'n me a flogg'n. :( ]

[Chopper Reid]

Steve,
Well, what can I say, just when I thought I had seen most things, along you come with post 85 ! :) I thought Birdy was hilarious but you aint no slouch either ! :D
Its good to see some old fashioned "defending a mate".
Do you drink rum Steve ?

[KenSandyEggo]

It's "bumpkin" if anyone gives a crap, as in "country bumpkin." "Bumpkin...an awkward, unsophisticated person." American Heritage Dictionary, third edition, page 115.

[Aussie_Paul]

Hey Chopper, I wish I could have some of that "defending a mate". Some people with power in our gyro assn, ASRA have been persecuting me for 15 years, and have forced me to fight for my ability to continue training. I train more Oz people as well as overseas gyro students than anyone else here is Oz. That is because I conduct gyro traing and help 7 days a week.

I have run into some minor paperwork problems with the CASA Authorities, and the Assn hide behind "we cannot help because the special instrument that I or any other gryo pilot in Oz needs to fly from licenced airports and up tp 500', has to be approved by the CASA". Now ASRA is requesting info from me so that CASA can ask ASRA to severly councel me.

I am a member of Asra, and have done my terms at being President achieving legal dual training in gyroplanes in 1990, ASRA should be fighting for me, one of their valuable members according to the CASA investigator. ASRA should be saying that the penalty is too severe for the minor infringemets of which I have been found guilty.

According to my own investigations it was members of the ASRA board that "Dobbed me in" for so called reckles flying, and yet every single seater operated illegally at the national fly in. I am quite sure that if I had failed to fly half way across Australia and back there would not have been a problem,as I had failed.

Quite a number of Aussies and Kiwis have this passion to pull down the successfull people in all fields. In Yanky land that is not the case. Most people over there support anyone who gets out and has a go, and becomes successful.

I am successfull in the gyro industry in Oz. The reason is that I do all my own testing, have many years or instructing and gyro development and also have a lot of popular human interest stories in the magazines. In other words I have a high profile. I was told by one of the CASA people in power that I should keep a lower profile!!!!! That proved to me that this has political overtones.

My life had been wrecked with all this fighting over the last 15 years and this last problem is costing me thousabds of dollars per month. The ASRA can then be proud that they have deminsished the availability of gyro training to ASRA members, for whom ASRA is responsible. :confused:

Without this special CASA instrument I am forced to fly from less that ideal flight strips and am not allowed to go above 500' agl!!! This forces me to train in a half ton gyroplane in airspace, that is the most dangerous according to the CASA statistics!!!!!

CASA stands for the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.

Sorry for my little bitch :mad: but this is getting to me so much now that sa I said above, I am SOOO tempted to walk away. :(

Aussie Paul. :)

[GyroRon]

Paul sorry to hear of the troubles. Why not come to the USA and become one of us Yanks? I will make room in my hangar for your stuff! You know your welcome here anytime

[birdy]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Chopper, I wish I could have some of that "defending a mate".

Hmmmm.............Paul,that sounds like you ain't got any mates. :rolleyes: :D

Hey Ken,I'm an ozzy Bumpkin,and proud of it too.[especialy the unsophisticated bit] :D

[birdy]

Steven,I asked Paul bout that "instrument" ages ago and got a stupid responce,so be prepared.
Are you serious bout com'n to the center?.Mate,be sure you bring that horny look'n gyro with ya.
Of all the other gyros I'v seen around,it's that one I'd love to take for a blap.[Only if your silly enough to let me of corse.]

[birdy]

I knew there was a bright side to the long hours I'v spent on this &*^@$%& computa.
The pots already on Steve,just yaki when you git ere.
BTW,summer is the best time to fly here.
PS; wot dose " give it back" mean??

[murraybarker]

It's obvious none of you know what real center line thrust is.

[PTKay]

Why is Aussie Paul so enigmatic ???

Can he tell us what is this "small unimportant instrument"
he is missing ??

Is this a transponder ?

I can understand, that in this anti-terror crazyness (but unfortunatelly
unevitable) such issue, like knowing who is in the air over/ near
big cities in above 500' airspace is just plain logic.

Paul, can you be more specific, what is happening ?

PTKay

[birdy]

Here's hope'n your a little weedy bastered with athsma and a broken arm. :p :D

[birdy]

I nearly forgot!!!!!!!!! :eek:

Ron said,
As for the issue of a CLT gyro is less manuverable... that is pure Bull****. I am not a super great gyro pilot, but I will make a public challenge to anyone who thinks that they can outfly me in their stabless HTL gyros. I will bet my lifes savings I am right on their tail doing everything they can do and doing it with the added safety of knowing my machine won't suddenly buntover if I get too carried away.

I call that a challenge not to be refused. :)

Wot you all reckon,we all chip in and give Ron a holiday to central Oz. :D :D

[Chuck Irby]

Wow, what a good idea, Steven.

Bird Man, if you go to ROC, I'll make it a point to be there also. In fact, I'll bet that a lot of people would be there who otherwise wouldn't. Maybe you could bring the others Aussies with you too.

[chuter]

Sounds like a disaster in the making to me. Both guys with something to prove, probably about 20 ft off the ground like Birdy flies. I hope it never happens. Sounds like a bunch of macho s**t to me. Exactly how we get a crappy reputation. :mad:

[Chuck Irby]

Come on now, Michael. They're both good pilots. In fact, I would't mind getting in there with them. We played follow the leader quite a bit at BD's and it was a lot of fun. We flew just a few feet above the ground over the pasture land, from one field to another, between the trees, jumping the fences, etc. IMO, this sort of thing can be done and good judgement can still be used.

Michael, do you fly that tractor pictured in your avatar? If so, I'd like to see more pictures of it.

[chuter]

Hi Chuck,

I don't have anything against some friendly follow the leader, but this sounds a bit more like a grudge match, especially if there's a few thousand dollars riding on it. If it can stay friendly, sure, it would be fun.

I haven't flown mine yet, I'm going over to Ron Menzie's later this month and hope to start test flying then. There are some pictures on another thread under Tractor Designs, Airborne 200.

[Chuck Irby]

Thanx Michael. I'll check your machine out.

Re the grudge match, it sounds like you haven't been around GyroRon, in person. He's mostly (about 99 percent) mouth. :D I once asked hime what time it was, and he proceeded to tell me precisely how to build a watch. :D :D

[chuter]

Ok, I'll lighten up a bit. You're right, I don't know Ron in person. Damn computer communicatin' anyway. :(

[bones]

I for one would drive the 2500 km( 1500 miles) to have a few rums and watch what ever goes on at Birdys, if it was going to happen :)
Birdy see if you can organise it for the round and some free hours at the same time :)

[birdy]

Micheal,I can see where your cum'n from,these little things can git out of control pretty quick :( .[who's in control. :rolleyes: ]
But there wasn't any money init.
Ron said he'd follow me,wich means he's got to cum over here. :)
Besides,who'll look after me cows when I'm gon.I haven't even managed a holiday for 9 years ,let alone go to the US and play gyros. :mad:

I personaly hope to meet some of the gyro ledgends before I snuff it.Wether they wip my ass or not is irrelivent.In fact they more than likely will,and I'll be the winer coz I'll be learn'n from them,not them from me. ;)

The likely hood of me 'n' Ron meet'n is bout as likely as me flyn a stab. :p

But if fate has it that we do meet,then we'll both be happy I'm sure,gyros or no gyros.

Bones...............see if you can organise it for the round and some free hours at the same time ???????????

[bones]

Sorry Dave, what i meant was if it was going to happen make it the next time your doin a round of mustering cause if it did come off there would prop be more people there then than at the nationals, and ya could have got that many gyros in the air ya moos wouldnt have known which way to go..
i was in a hurry before.

[birdy]

I gitcha now Bones.
But we both know how much more work a gyro in the wrong place makes ay.Them free hours can become very expencive ones.


But I'v changed my mind.
Wots wrong with a fly'n comp??
It'd be no different to race'n bikes ,cars or boats would it?
You race machines of every discription imagionable in the states,why not gyros.
Theres heaps of money up for grabs in motor sport.
When I raced bikes in the desert here there was money to be won but only those with a reasonable chance went flat strap for the finish.The rest were usualy satisfied enough with finishing without a bent scooter.
We're all mature grown up blokes[tho some outsiders would argue that point],I can't see any reason why we would git a bad image if we had fly'n comps.If anything,it mite show some of the sceptics wot these machines are capable of.
I reckon friendly border rivalry is healthy.It's been go'n on for years with me neibours.
But if there ever was a Oz,US fly off,then theres alot of better blokes to do it for Oz than me,I'm just the one who's got too much time on me hands,and spend it on this computer thingy.

After all the dribble and sh.t stir'n I posted on the Oz forum before the national flyin I was asked to do a demo flight.
I was'nt real keen on the idea but did agree to do something at the end of the last day.I didn't want to "set a standard",then have someone go out after and try to do better.Thats how people git hurt.
As it was,even thou my demo was just a bit of tame play'n round,as soon as I'd landed I saw two incidents that,if I'd realy cut sick and ploughed the air,I would have felt responsable for "seting the standard".

All that said,I'm sure me and Ron know our limits,and are smart enough to not exceed them.

[Aussie_Paul]

Paul K said, 'Why is Aussie Paul so enigmatic ???
Can he tell us what is this "small unimportant instrument"
he is missing ??
Paul, can you be more specific, what is happening ?

I am not sure what you mean by enigmatic Paul. Let me know and I will see if I can answer that.

Ok, back to the "instrument". An instrument is a document used by the Oz Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) to allow limited changes to an Air Navigation Order. I will attach the 4 pages of the ANO. To operate above 500’agl and to operate within 5 mile of a licensed aerodrome the pilot must make application to and CASA may, by writing, approve the application. It is this word “may” that is my dilemma. It does not matter how qualified or even, if innocent, CASA do not have to allow my request to operate above 500’agl and to operate within 5 mile of a licensed aerodrome.

These rules were implemented in approx 1983 when the gyro movement in Oz had very little in the way of infrastructure to examine gyro pilots to an acceptable level to mix with the rest of aviation. It was a reasonable rule at that time, but is now very out of date. This is where the “maximum fuel capacity” of 36 litres =9.5 us gallons for the single seat gyro operations came from. This kept gyro pilots from going too far. This is my little bitch about all the single place gyros that operate illegally with CASA and ASRA turning a blind eye.

In 1990, when I was president of ASRA, and we achieved a new ANO to train in dual place gyros, I was able to have the 36 litre section removed from the two seat ANO.

Approx. 3 years ago CASA in consultation with ASRA approved updated ANO’s to fall in line with the other sport aviation bodies. This would mean that when you received your gyroplane certificate you could operate up to 5000’ amsl, and fly from licensed aerodromes. Unfortunately the documents have not, at this time, been “rubber stamped” by the government, and the old rules still apply.

This places me at the mercy of CASA officials. Unfortunately our gyro assn. has not seen fit to support me, saying that it is a personal “instrument” and that they have no authority in this area. Technically that is correct, but now, many assn. members are not able to be trained to the level that they are entitled to. This means that our assn. is not looking after its members. If instructors were a dime a dozen the members would be ok. The trouble for assn. members is that I am the only full time instructor in the populated areas of Oz that can and will operate 7 days a week. People have been able to come to me and train in a block of time to reach certificate level. These people came from all over the world.

Now that I am not able to train from my local all weather licensed aerodrome or above 500’ agl I am severely discriminated against by not being able to earn a living that also helps assn.members.

I have been restricted in my operations now since April when the investigation started. I have been penalised as guilty until proven innocent. It has been proven, and I accept that I unknowingly operated without some correct paperwork, and that I landed on 2 roads to refuel.
The penalty imposed does not fit the crime!!!!!!

Remember that I have been operating successfully with the appropriate CASA instruments from licensed aerodromes and up to 5000’ since 1990. I feel I have every right to feel aggrieved, particularly when it was one or some of my gyro peers that reported me!!!!!!!!

I hope that this post explains a few things that have happened, and how the system works Down Under.

Aussie Paul. :)

[birdy]

Sounds like a typical "the laws an ass" thing to me.
BTW Paul,your not the only one who can call the law an ass.Been there ,done that.

But Like I said,the **** wouldn't be hitt'n the fan if no one had the need to throw it.

[Aussie_Paul]

Who had the need to throw it Birdy?

Aussie Paul.:)

[birdy]

Stuffed if I know Paul,your the one spin'n the yarn.

[Aussie_Paul]

Not a yarn Birdy, unfortunatley very true.

Paul K. Did that answer your question?

Aussie Paul.:)

[Steven_Kozned]

Paul,
Is landing on a road and filling up at a gas station illegal in Australia?
What kind of unsafe flying are the morons accusing you of?
Sorry to hear about your misfortune.
Just remember, only the lawyers win when you're expecting justice.

[daveb]

Steven,
" Is landing on a road and filling up at a gas station illegal in Australia?"
Well technically it is, but it's the common practice for outback pilots.

Fair enough if someone was unkind enough to make an official complaint to the authorities, they would have to do something. What has happened to Paul is completely out of proportion to the minor transgression that occurred.

It was only because of his tremendous enthusiasm for gyro's and flying that he shared the story of his flight to Bond Springs with us. Had he know the knives were out...

As someone who knows him quite well I can not say enough about his generosity and love of what we do. His airmanship and attention to safety is unquestionable. If I say any more I'm going to sound like a dribbling sycophant :o ...and then have to start watching my own back.

Dave

[PTKay]

Aussie Paul,

I thought about the "instrument" as a technical, not legal device.

The legal situation in Australia is unknown to me, so I can't comment
on your problems.

The only thing I've learned recently is, that all GA pilots are just mad
at what CASA is doing:

http://www.avweb.com./newswire/10_37b/briefs/188094-1.html

I can only tell you, that since March 18th the situation in Poland
changed for better very significantly.
Except for CTR, ATZ, MATZ, TMA which are all class A, everything else
up to FL095 is space class G, open for everybody.
(No flight plan, no radi, no transponder needed, VFR all
is full responsibility of the PIC).

In this space we have of course some D and P zones,
some R, like National Parks where you cannot fly below 3000ft.
Also some TSA, TFR and MRT, but those are generally open
unless somebody temporarily reserves them for their purpose.
(everybody can do such resevation a day before, for defined time)

This is a part fo the European intiative of the s.c.
"flexible airspace mangement", which Poland implemented
this year.

See: http://www.amc.pata.pl/index.php?lang=_eng&left_menu=menu_amc&top_menu=top_amc&opis=amc_info

Of course nobody is allowed to land outside of the airports or
airfields, except in case of emergency. Every such case is to
be reported to the Accident Board and is subject of investigation.

PTKay