FYI....Soob 2.5

[KenSandyEggo]

I was surfing yesterday and got into one of my Soob newsgroups and some guy posted a link which led to many more links about Soob engines. There were almost nothing but bad experiences with the 2.5, mainly head gasket leaks. There were several theories, like the extra ccs left the cylinder walls too thin, etc., but the concensus from many owners and Soob mechanics was that you just can't beat the 2.2 for reliability.

A lot of folks were P.O.ed because Soob's fix for the head-gasket leaks is to throw in their version of "Stop-Leak." There was some inside info from someone who knows someone about the folks at Soob trying to keep it low-key, because there really is no fix that they've been able to come up with. My own Soob mechanic has expressed sentiments similar to the above.....that the 2.2 is a much superior engine to the 2.5. The term "bullet-proof" was thrown around regularly.

[StanFoster]

Ken: I know my 2,2 seems bullet proof. I have had zero problems with the engine in almost 100 hours now. It makes my flying so much different being able to hop in and go ....knowing it will.
Stan

[Friendly]

Stan or Ken,
I am now a 2.2 owner. Love the little engine. I would be interested in any newsgroup sites for this engine in aircraft use. What ignition systems are you guys using?

[KenSandyEggo]

Here are 4 Soob links. The third one is about cars, but the basic engine info applies. Last one is a pdf file that is outstanding. I couldn't upload it because it is way too big. Usually if you right click on it and save it to your desktop or somewhere, then it will ask if you want to open it and it usually does.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/airsoob/

http://www.geocities.com/subaru_builders/index.html

http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/forum/

http://www.mygyroplane.com/overhaulej22.pdf

[automan1223]

It is true the 2.2 is a low maint engine. however it is marginal power on larger machines with inexperienced pilots. The 2.5 Single overhead cam NO TURBO is a reliable engine. The engine suffers from a variety of problems. One is cylinder walk or cylinder instability with the addition of boost. 10 to 1 compression ratio is ok but have high cylinder pressures due to early ign timing or have an engine that has the 1st gen head gaskets then you got some possible issues. New head gaskets and prep both surfaces with SPRAY K&W coppercoat is the only way to gurantee seal. THe 2.5 has more displacement, larger intake ports and roller rockers. They also are not hyd rockers which means you can accurately set lash with hi po cam should you want to use one. The only down side is that no one currently makes a bolt on intake for setting up a carb. The ports are larger and will not accept the earlier ej 1.8sohc-2.2sohc-2.5w dohc heads.

The only serious problem I have heard of are 1. the back of the cranks is not always turned square resulting in flywheel wobble and redrive problems. and 2.

The engine can be prone to carbon build up and that is bad because the quench area between the flat top of the piston and the cylinder will start interference and that I believe is the main problem with many of the engines blowing up.

They are also never properly set up by the screwdriver wizzards that race them or intall them on aircraft. If you are doing an install on an aircraft always break down the heads and clean the carbon and properly install new head gaskets. Its also a good time to inspect cylinders for damage or erosion.

As far as one who has flying experince with flying a new gen 2.5. ask Larry Neal or Brad King. Brad has been flying the Mad Max 2 place for some time. I spoke with Brad over boosting the power on the 2.2 several months ago and he advised me to "run" dont walk to the 2.5.... Of course if you dont have a behemoth of a machine and you are not a extra large one like me flying in the heat then I would stick with a 2.2 for its lighter weight and adequate power output. Brads sweet words were that he could throttle back to 4400 rpm and still maint altitude. He does however run the only set of dragon wings on his monster ship, much to the chagrin of ernie.... So believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear. My 2. cents.

Jonathan
Oriental NC

[rfi]

There is only six pounds difference between the EJ22 and SOHC EJ25. I have weighed both of them. As far as the SOHC EJ25 engines are concerned, I have not heard of any problems in gyroplanes, helicopters, and airplanes and I have a lot of customers who are flying them.

There have been problems with the DOHC EJ25 engines. I know of seven on gyroplanes that have broken crankshafts, some with as little as 10 hours. According to information Larry Neal got from a Subaru engineer, the DOHC EJ25 had a crankshaft flange runout problem (6-7 thousandths) which could certainly be attributed to crank failures with redrives installed. The engineer said that the problem was fixed when the SOHC engines came out.

[Aussie_Paul]

Thanks for confirming that info Don.

Aussie Paul.:)

[automan1223]

Good to hear from you Don,

I suspected the engines were within 10 lbs of each other. Glad you confirmed it for us.

When I spoke to Brad King he indicated that he had trouble with his redrive blowing on a NEW sohc engine with the crank wobble issue. Maybe I heard wrong. I will check mine this week.

attached is the subaru tsb for "external head gasket leaks" its adobe pdf about 850kb.

however I have never known a head gasket to fail in only one way, when they leak on the outside they usually seep on the inside. I have seen ej 2.2s leak and seep to the cylinders and pit cylinders on high mileage engines that were stored.

Jonathan

[Greg Lockhart]

Hi Guys, I'm relatively new here. Been reading for quite awhile but have only posted a couple of questions so far. I'm wanting to build a SparrowHawk. I was fortunate to be able to fly in one with Terry Eiland at Mentone. (what a nice guy). I talked to him and the other SH reps about the short grass strip I would be flying out of. Only about 500 feet before I cross the fence. I would like to be able to get off the ground in about half that distance on a regular basis with full fuel and 2 Souls On Board. (elevation about 900 ft) Everyone I talked to felt I would definitely need the 2.5 engine. Has anyone been able to compare the performance of these two engines on the SH yet? KenSandyEggo, I am especially interested to hear how the adjustable prop works out for you. I'm thinking (hoping) that with the 2.5, the adjustable prop and a good pre-rotator I'll be able to fly out of my short field with no problem. What do you guys think? I talked to the mechanics at my local Subaru dealership and they feel the SOHC 2.5 is very reliable. Not so for the DOHC version. Thanks for any advice.
Greg Lockhart

[automan1223]

500 ' is a short run for a rotorcraft. if you have a really strong pre rotator you might get things going in 500' with a 2.5 set up properly nothing less. You would need at least 250 rpm I believe but you would need to have experience at a long strip to be safe.

[GyroRon]

I don't think it can't be done, but 500 foot max with a big heavy machine like that is most certainly pushing it. Best I have done with my lightweight machine is 250 feet on a calm day

[bogman]

Ron, we measured Chuck's takeoff roll a coupla weeks ago with his 618 Dom.. 2 takeoffs and both were exactly 375 ft. when the wheels left the runway.

I figured on grass it would take another 100 ft.. Does that sound about right to you?

[GyroRon]

with the big wheelbarrow tires I don't think the take off will take any longer on smooth grass. A bumpy surface might cause you to eat up runway as you baby it into the air, but grass won't make much difference to a Dominator.

I flew mine on Sunday and landed and took back off from a R/C model field that has a 300 foot runway. That runway is centered on a hill so when your at one end of the runway you can only see the middle as the other end is on the other side of the hill. I pre rotated to 215 RRPM and then held in the pre rotator and let the brakes go and kept rolling and pre rotating to 275 RRPM and released the pre rotator and nailed full power. Was off the ground just about about the 2/3rd point.

[animal]

with the big wheelbarrow tires I don't think the take off will take any longer on smooth grass. A bumpy surface might cause you to eat up runway as you baby it into the air, but grass won't make much difference to a Dominator.

I flew mine on Sunday and landed and took back off from a R/C model field that has a 300 foot runway. That runway is centered on a hill so when your at one end of the runway you can only see the middle as the other end is on the other side of the hill. I pre rotated to 215 RRPM and then held in the pre rotator and let the brakes go and kept rolling and pre rotating to 275 RRPM and released the pre rotator and nailed full power. Was off the ground just about about the 2/3rd point.

Hey Ron that makes me feel better about my land.
I have been paying on some land in aiken,town of williston on white pond rd. It is 700 feet long 60 feet wide then opens up into an area about 400 feet kind of triangle shaped,kind of look like a number 1 on the land plat.
someday I hope to develope and move there,always knew it would ake a good place to fly a helicopter, and thought it would make a good gyroport,but had people tell me you needed about 1,500 feet to take off in a gyro.

who knows knowing this now, maybe sometime i can start getting the trees cut out and make a runway and let the club have a private field in the future.

what do you guys think? would it make a good enough feild for a gyro at 700 feet long and 60 feet wide?

[Aussie_Paul]

You probably need around 1500' for the first year of flying in all sorts of conditions with a variety of loads. After that you should be experienced enough to not get caught and take the fence out!!!!!!!!

Aussie Paul.:)

[KenSandyEggo]

Greg L., I just picked up some bolts today and should be getting them on shortly. I also picked up some Buna cups for my slave cylinder today for the hydrauilic actuation for the prerotator.

I may be delayed a little as I have a bad situation here. Stefanos and his mom are staying with us since they got back from Greece late last week. Stefanos had his tonsils out yesterday and his mom is helpless. She can't remember when to give him his meds or what the doctor and nurses said about what he should eat and drink. She's the one that flunked her practical driving test 3 times and never was able to get a license. If they weren't staying here, he'd be suffering even more.

Here's the worst part, because we do love taking care of him. Just before they left for Greece, they visited a drunken, unreliable friend (his dad's previous words) near Charlotte, NC. He saw that homes were so much cheaper there (the prices are nuts around here), so he thinks that he can buy a home there and that the prices will go up like crazy as they did here and he can keep doubling his money every year until he's a millionaire in a couple years. I just heard today that sales of homes and prices are generally flattening out everywhere.

Anyway, he's illiterate (in actuality) so he can't find out any information on his own. He only knows what someone tells him or he hears on TV. He can't read. He believes the last thing that anyone told him. His drunken buddy gave him a snow-job about how great it would be if he came out there. I'm sure his buddy has ulterior motives. Of course I'd say that too if I was living in a lady-friend's home, was unemployed and got fed and put up for free.

I'm in no way knocking Charlotte or the area. I understand it's beautiful. Anyway, on September 4th, Stefanos flies off to live in Charlotte. I've helped raise this kid for almost 8 years and to have him yanked out like that is heart-breaking. I don't know how I'll handle it when he actually leaves. Not too well, I'm sure. His mom doesn't want to go and neither does Stefanos, but his dad could care less about how they feel. It's not like he's moving to better his financial situation, he's basically an itinerant house-painter who has his customers fill out their contracts. He claims to them that he hurt his hand, when in reality, he can't read or write or doesn't care to learn because he's too lazy. That's what we're up against when we try to talk to him.

I could have started my new job this week at Childrens Hospital, but I put it off until next week so I could be around while Demetra's at work, so Stefanos' mom doesn't accidentally harm him through her stupidity in some way while he's healing.

I guess I hi-jacked this thread unintentionally, but it just started flowing. Sorry. Later.

[GyroRon]

Ken I would love to meet Stefanos. I can't take him for gyro rides but can take him for Piper pacer rides. Charlotte is a nice area, Got the mountains - very pretty GREEN mountains - 2 hours to our west, got world famous beaches 3 hours to our east and everything in between. Plus Stefanos will probably feel right at home cause Charlotte has become swarmed with Mexican men here to work in construction, fast food, lawn service, etc... Isn't it that way over in sandy eggo?

Anyway you are always welcome here at my house if you want to come to visit him. Plus I will take you flying too! Just make sure to bring several pairs of socks, my wife has a sensitive stomach and those toes of yours!!.......... j/k

[KenSandyEggo]

Ron, I'm giving my big right toe-nail another couple months to grow out and will then post another picture. You will be amazed at what Lamisil can do. It takes about a year for a toenail to grow out.

Thanks for your offer. I'm sure I'll be making it out that way as much as I can and will be sure to look you up. I'll let you know when I'm coming.

One of the problems that Stefanos' dad has, which he's admitted, is that he feels I dominated Stefanos' life and that he never had a chance to bond with him. Of course he never made any effort to do that, like going to any school functions, signing him up for soccer, taking him to soccer practice and games, taking him to game rooms, amusement parks, movies, the park or anything else that Stefanos likes to do. He wouldn't let him sign up for soccer last year unless I promised to take him to practice and the games. He'd show up late for maybe 3 of the games. Of course he can't read with him or help with his homework. His mom is not much better. When Stefanos is at his home, he just stays in his bedroom by himself because the 2 "parents" are busy watching Greek TV via satellite. How can a dad bond with a boy if he has no interest in doing anything for him? I am just so pissed off and sad right now.

[automan1223]

I never met either of my grand fathers so I do not know what it is like to be in the middle of a tug of war. It is unfortunate that children are used like pawns and ocassionally like hammers to inflict emotional harm to family members on opposite sides of an issue (divorce, separations etc. )

. Ken, if I were his father and half of what you say is true then he has right to feel threatened. Here you are doing what he does not even understand. Instead of appreciating the fact that his offspring will be light years ahead with having a guardian like you take an interest in the boy he is really insecure and will play the man vs macho thing. Esp if he is greek. Like any little boy Stefanos is prob wide eyed at the table talking his head off over super grand dad and all the things he has had enrich his young life thanks to you. You walk a tight line and can only go so far. He is a little boy and has to dream. Hopefully he will expand on the dreams and unfort he will have to learn, like all of us do that our parents are not gods, they can and are wrong some of the time.....

As parents, guardians, and teachers our only obligation outside of basic needs to a child is to PROVIDE OPPORTUNITY. not important if the child takes off with what we provide them, music, cars, planes, schools, etc is not important. That child should be able to have the OPPORTUNITY to do those things. If the parents are not placing opportunity and growing and learning experineces in that childs path then they are failing their duty. What they have to understand is that you love them all and only want to see the best for them. His father and mother should realize that too. North Carolina is NO CAKE WALK. I have a struggling business here at times going on 8 years. Population density is no gurantee of success nor is rich clientel. Several of my "friends in " NY repair shops have gone under, with millions of cars all around....Although it sure stacks the deck in your favor..... Any way Ken, You can only be calm and resonable it is possible they could make out good here and there is opportunity. The only thing I would be concerned with is that they are moving from one fault line to another. But thats another story. The only thing I would be concerned about is are his parents that "uneducated" that they will not provide the boy with opportunity. But I think you already answered that. keep us posted.

Jonathan
Oriental NC

ps if you come and visit ron inland then you have to come out to the coast visit me and check out the blue water and play with the fishes.
Does stefanos fish ?

[KenSandyEggo]

Jonathan posted: "The only thing I would be concerned with is that they are moving from one fault line to another."

That's been the dad's whole life. He's been running since he was 15 and joined the Merchant Marines and jumped ship in Canada. Rather than deal with anything, he runs. He suffers from severe depression but won't continuously take his meds....macho thing. His wife just told Demetra yesterday at lunch that she's resigned herself to the fact that he's mentally disturbed but she just has to live with it. It's a tenet of her religion. I feel sorry for someone in that position.

I don't think that Stefanos has ever fished, as I don't. But his dad says that's one of the things they're going to do once they move. He's never taken him fishing here in almost 8 years, 5 minutes from the ocean and numerous lakes.

Everyone in that area can send me a map when I announce here that I'll be visiting your way.

[mceagle]

Concurr with Paul (post 15).

More often than not, it is the experience of the pilot that determines take off distance, not how good the prerotator is or how powerful the engine is.
Good rotor management is the secret and this only comes with experience.
The possible exception would be when a Gyro can pre-rotate to a rotor speed that allows full power from the start. Even so, large variations in fuel loads can make a considerable difference in our gyros, where fuel can be a comparitively high percentage of our all up weight.
It is not technically a good idea anyway to use full power right from the start because not only do the blades over- cone until they catch up but also you may encounter a gust or a whirly wind (dust devil?) that could put you instantly into a dangerous high speed blade flap situation.

PS. I don't know that this post belongs in the engine thread. I posted this before I looked at page 2