Ok, will start building the Bee SOON!!! Questions, questions...

[KDOG]

I just wanted to say that I've decided betweent the two birds I want to build and as you prolly guessed, I've chosen the Gyrobee. I have a few questions before I start ordering parts. First, it seem like StarBee Gyros make an excellent kit, but they are quite expensive compared to buying the raw materials and drilling/cutting them yourself. I'm wondering If I can build the base frame myself and use their tail section on it. Also, I have purchased a circular/mitre saw blade that was made for cutting aluminum. However, it doesn't give specifics on what type of aluminum, grade, solid , hollow, etc. Do you think it will be ok? Its a high tooth count blade. Any help would be appreciated...

[nsheryka]

Also, I have purchased a circular/mitre saw blade that was made for cutting aluminum. However, it doesn't give specifics on what type of aluminum, grade, solid , hollow, etc. Do you think it will be ok? Its a high tooth count blade. Any help would be appreciated...


should be fine, just cut it nice and slow. Cut to fast and it will heat up and you will burn the aluminum/ruin the blade and/or piece you are cutting.

[rwr]

Given that you have chosen the Gyrobee, pay the money and buy the stuff from Starbee. By the time you figure in all your time wasted doing things over, and all the material wasted from less-than-airworthy craftsmanship, it probably will cost more anyway. At this point you have little concept of how much frustration, time, cost, etc., you'll incur by trying to build from scratch when you can get very-well-thought-out stuff from folks like Starbee.

If you do build from scratch, you will learn a lot, no doubt. If that is your goal, then go that way. If you survive, you'll be a happy guy.

Do you know how hard it is to properly place a hole in a piece of 2x2 tubing? If you are off more than a GCH, you have to throw away the tubing and buy some more. Of course, that will involve a month's wait for the back-ordered tubing to show up,.. yada, yada, yada.

Do you have any idea how much loooooooooonger it will take to build the thing if you manufacture all the pieces yourself?

I'm sure your saw is a very nice saw. I still think you'd be better off the first time, buying the safe and properly crafted pieces from Starbee. Use your saw to build some lovely picture frames.

[GyroRon]

What does GCH stand for? I think I know what the C and H stand for but the G?

[Russell]

Knowing RWR it is most likely Grey :D

[rwr]

gnat,.......

[KDOG]

My point is that the parts at StarBee are WWAAAAYYY more expensive than the raw materials, not just a little more expensive. For example, the UNDRILLED mast single mast tube at StarBee is a whopping $70 before shipping. Buying the tube from Wicks is like $24 before shipping. I'm not made of money. Now having said that, I will most likely be buying the more complicated components from them, like the tail section, control stick assembly, etc...

[Doug Riley]

Does Wicks have 3/16 wall 6061-T6 sq. tube? It's an unusual size. That's what goes into a single-tube Starbee mast (not 1/8 x 2x2).

Watch out for the apples vs. oranges thing. My general impression (without studying their catalog in great depth) is that Starbee's Gyrobee is about the cheapest gyro kit around. It's priced about the same as the Honeybee was several years ago -- and IT was a steal, too.

In any case, the frame is a minor cost on most aircraft (gyro, helo or FW). The engine, blades, prop and control system are the costly things. Many, many people build a $1000 frame and only then discover they don't have the $6 or $8 K that they need (all at once!) to finish up.

For that reason, it's common to find never-used frames for sale.

[scottessex]

Check the prices on the Brock kits! OUCH.

If you are not already good at fabrication, I would go with a kit, Just because of the amount of unexpected things that you will run into.

[nsheryka]

Do you know how hard it is to properly place a hole in a piece of 2x2 tubing? If you are off more than a GCH, you have to throw away the tubing and buy some more. Of course, that will involve a month's wait for the back-ordered tubing to show up,.. yada, yada, yada.



Do you have access to a milling machine, or a drill press with an adjustable table? With either of these it is actually extremely easy. If you are trying to do it with a hand drill or a low end drill press then yes, it will be extremely difficult. I am not suggesting that you go out and buy a 10,000 dollar milling machine, however check and see if the high school in your town has a metal shop. You pay taxes, and actually have a right to use these. Get friendly with the shop teacher and I am sure he would let you use them to drill a few holes.

I agree with you, the costs for raw materials are extremely high with starbee. If you decide to get the bolt together kit, the craftsmanship is excellent, however.

I am also building my frame from scratch, just to get that “look what I did” factor, and for the experience. I work in a machine shop at my university, so I should be all set.

But defiantly look into the High School thing.

Good luck with it!!

[chuter]

Nick,

So you're saying that anyone who pays taxes has the right to use any equipment in their local high school?

If that's true, it's got to be some very fine print somewhere, and I bet they sure don't want the word to get out. I'd think the liability would shut that down pretty quick. :confused:

[nsheryka]

Nick,

So you're saying that anyone who pays taxes has the right to use any equipment in their local high school?

If that's true, it's got to be some very fine print somewhere, and I bet they sure don't want the word to get out. I'd think the liability would shut that down pretty quick. :confused:

Well, what i ment by that was that your taxes pay for the school equipment.. I have done it and i know other people who have.. maybe not in all areas. Worth a shot however, as the quality of your tools will have alot do do with the quality of the product.

And 6061 is 6061, can be bought cheaper elsewhere. I see nothing wrong with their prices for the bolt togeather kits, as i know how much work goes into making parts like that. And i would not buy un-stamped material from a shady place or anything, i just know you can get the raw materials for a good deal cheaper if you hunt around.

[Vance]

Very will said John. Thank You, Vance

[scottessex]

You can give some money to me pal! :)



Just kidding, You know your money isn't good at my place.



You do bring up a good point John, Right now i am having some of tha same feelings, because I want to get back up and flying. I would rather be flying than building at this point. But I also take alot of pride in my own work, and am confident in my own skills, that I feel I will benifit from building myself.

But it sure would be faster to build from a kit, all the engineering is done, you're not wasting time running all over town looking for parts, waiting a week for the UPS truck, and then another week because you forgot to order something else.

now I feel bad for not buying a brand new rotax, and stuff,
But I will probably give Ernie my cash for blades, because they are woth it.

And another thing, John built his from a kit, sure it cost him more, but he hasn't had half the problems I have had with my used parts machine. I might not have torn it up if I had good blades and a good engine.



Sure was fun while it lasted though, it will be much better this time.

[Doug Riley]

In the 13 or so years I ran AEROTEC as a supplies-kits company, I heard tales of woe associated with doing a first project "on the cheap" more times that I can count. One of those tales was my own! Building my first Bensen back in high school, I wasted more time and took more unneeded risks because of scrounged bits and pieces than I care to recall.

If you're plugged into the metals industry because of your work or other solid connections, then you might be able to save a few bucks on raw supplies. Again, though, raw metal is a small percentage of the total cost of a gyro. Be a little humble about assuming that you can easily beat the system.

[scottessex]

TIME - TIME - TIME


What is your time worth? I have done fabrication work most of my life, and still, the time is the biggest factor in any build, You can save time, or save money, but not both! I built mine from plans, it took 3 times as long as I predicted. and cost more too. :)

[nsheryka]

Screw-In

Are you sure any 6061 is 3/16 wall 6061-T6 sq. tube? Are you willing to bet other peoples lives on it?

Screw-Out

I didn’t type the whole thing because i was lazy.. what i meant to say was:

6061-T6 is 6061-T6, yes. I can’t say anything for manufacturing errors or bad batches.. but an alloy is an alloy, absolutely.

Yes you are correct! I do believe in supporting the people who have businesses in our interest. I met the folks of Starbee gyro’s at a Fly-In in NH about a month ago, and they seemed very friendly and helpful. Great folks. And I do plan on ordering just about all the parts I can’t manufacture myself from them.

I will not however buy the raw aluminum from them for two reasons.

1 – I want to build my gyrobee as much from scratch as possible for the learning experience.

2 – I am a poor college student and cant justify spending 4 times as much for the same aluminum

I hope I didn’t offend anybody at all.. I didn’t mean at all that we should run starbee out of business. They are a great company and I plan on supporting them

I am also very appreciative of everybody in the gyro community, I have learned a lot from you guys so far. I was just trying to offer some of my knowledge from being an engineer and working in a machinist’s shop.

[scottessex]

cONGRATS on your decision to build, Now it is time to invest in some tools. Don't skimp on quality drill bits, saw blades, sharpies etc. measure twice 3 times even, and cut once. I hate it when I cut twice and it's still too short! :D

get a good set of transfer punches, and vice-grip clamps with the pads.
also safety glasses, and band-aids. :)

Just be patient and take your time, you will end up with alot of pride when you solo a machine that you have built.

[Brent_Brown]

2. Brent, please shed the light. He's still leaning towards the dark side.

What did I miss here?

[KDOG]

Now you guys are scaring me!!!! ;) I still may buy the parts instead of fabricating. Just need more time to think...


Oh and great pics. That'll be me someday!!!

[Brent_Brown]

I don't see why he can't make it himself. The hard things you buy like blades, rotorhead, prop, motor, maybe the stick. But why not save a buck if you can, I did. I lost money on the 670 rotax I had started with. Yes you may have to trash some tubes and plate but that is the norm in doing it right. I just trashed a firewall I made and spent all day on the new one, so I say do it and email me if you need help I will try to do what I can for you.

John after getting your Gold "The KIT" didn't you think man I could made some of this?

And he is following plans. come on how hard can it be? If it is not like the plans siad then make it again.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear but that is how I see it.

BTY I am out of the Army now after 22.5 years. War is HELL.

[gyroman]

If you like working on things and have a little patience I say go for it. If you are too anxious to get it done or don't have time or tools then buy the pre cut/drilled kit. All depends on the person making it.

For me, my project it drawn out over several years (not by choice) but it has been really rewarding making each and every piece of the airframe. Key thing it just get started, no matter if it is buying a wheel this week, some tubing next month, whatever. It adds up pretty quickly and before you know it'll be complete...

[jeffnet]

Hi, new to the this sight, I have decided on building a gyro, down to two models. Geebee or a Ken Brock KB3. So my question is what do some of you flyers recommend and why. Just want to make the right choice. Thanks, Jeff

[Rando]

Between only those two? Gyrobee and make sure you put a horizontal stab. on it.

[Brent_Brown]

I would build the 3DRV if going from a plans only. The 3drv is a KB with the drop keel it needs, it has a tall tail and you couyld put a HS on the keel to make it better or just put a tall tail with a HS in the center prop.

[Dale Young]

I learned the following from scratch-building:
If you begin your building day with a mistake,...Then another,...Then another, IMMEDIATLY STOP!... Go home, rest, And try again tomorrow. It seems as if, for whatever reason,some days just were'nt meant for working in the shop .Even though you may feel like it! I can't explain this phenomenon :confused:

[Doug Riley]

Jeff: Steer clear of a stock KB-3. They are rather unstable, especially for a first-time pilot. I'm not familiar personally with the 3D-RV, but its configuration at least LOOKS more stable. The Gyrobee with the Watson tail surfaces is very stable and is a good choice if you want to scratch-build.

[jawbrey]

Doug who/ where to get watson tail. i went to the bastrop fly in sat. all of the gyros had h/s but only chucks dominator had the stab center to prop the other gyros all seemed to have the stab low on the frame well below center of thrust why the difference? whats better / more stable for a beginer? james Awbrey

[Doug Riley]

James: I don't know of anyone who will make and sell you a finished Watson tail. Doc designed it as a scratch-build project. It uses the techniques described in Burt Rutan's book on homebuilt composite aircraft construction. It's a good system for one-off projects, but too labor-intensive for commercial production. Commercial builders usually use molds.

A horizontal down on the tail tube will not produce much force at low airspeeds (keep in mind a gyro can achieve ZERO airspeed). A HS that's partly or completely in the prop slipstream will continue to function even at low airspeeds as long as the prop is turning is running. This is especially important if the thrustline is not perfectly lined up with the CG, as is the case with the 'Bee. So pick a tail group whose HS is at least high enough poff the tail tube that it catches wind from the prop. 6-8" is enough for this purpose.

A Starbee tail probably will do just as well as a Watson (I'm hoping to beg a flight in a Starbee when Dana visits up here at the end of the month; I'll be able to comment better if/when that happens).