single-seat configuration: opinions wanted!

[MattCline]

*The problem*
Myself and two friends recently started building our first Dominator from plans...a simple "ultrawhite"-like machine. At Mentone this year one goal was to determine the engine/prop configuration we would use. We had settled on either a 503 or 582 (driving a 60" warp drive prop) before arriving -- certainly we would leave with THE answer. We got advice from four people we respect...and they told us different things. (Funny how it turns out that no one in the gyro community has an opinion or is independant by nature.)

*Some background*
I weigh 170lbs and the others 210 and 230lbs. We plan to build more Dominators once we are trained, more knowledgeable, etc. Future gyro(s) will be more along the "performance" model. The other two guys are fixed wing pilots -- I am not a pilot yet. We have full access to a nice machine shop and know how to use it. Some things though (engine mounts, suspension, etc) we'll get from Ernie.

*The advice*
-Ernie: Go with 503, 60"prop. "You'll learn to fly the gyro and not the engine." Pull start will be fine. Keep weight of extras down.
-Joe S: Go with the 582..the big guy (especially) will wish he had the power.
-Ed A: Ernie is right, but will likely want/need bigger rotors.
-Russ K: Joe is right...definately need more thrust than 503-60. Should step up to 582 and put bigger prop and turn them slower -- make a quiet machine and use the power for the extras. <If this was our 2nd machine, we'd do it this way I think>.

For about 5 mins they debated (with us querying them). Russ offered a compromise: go with a dual-carb 503, but swing 68"prop (requires stretching frame). He said thrust of 503-68 would be very close to thrust of 582-60. Less expense, no water cooling, etc. The 503-68" seems to be a bit of "get something for nothing" to me...and that always sets off an alarm.

*Bottom line*
We want to listen to Ernie and Ed...but want to be sure that all three of us will be safe and enjoy flying a machine with 503 (dual-carb) with 60" prop and "larger" rotors. That is, we'd rather not stray from the plans on our first machine. Hell, we are just learning what questions to ask! We'd like to keep cost and time-to-build of first machine down.

All of your thoughts/experiences are GREATLY appreciated.
Matt Cline (with Ken Meyer and Quinn Peyton)

BTW - I'm in process of putting our logs, pics, video online at:
http://rothfus.cheme.cmu.edu/matts/gyro/dominator/

[gyropilot]

Matt,

I'm not a Dominator guy, but your question is somewhat platform independent...

There are merits to going with a trusty, simple dual-carb 503 and striving to keep the total takeoff weight of your gyro as light as possible. With a 582 you'll definitely gain more power... and a greater margin of safety... at the cost of more weight and complexity.

There's no "best" automobile, firearm, aircraft... and there's no single best engine / prop combination either! Only opinions!

I'm very happy with a 503, 60" 3-blade Ivoprop, and 23' Dragonwings on my GyroBee. For comparison purposes to your gyro, the fully loaded takeoff weight on my Bee is 540 pounds and it performs very well. At the 0-3000' MSL I fly at around here, the fully loaded climb rate is 700-800 fpm on a 65 degree day.

I will say this though, depending on the gearbox and propeller you intend to use, I believe a 60" prop is going to be a bit too small with a 582 for optimal performance.

With the typical 2.58:1 gearbox, it's generally accepted that a 503 works well with a 60" 3-bladed prop or a 64" 2-bladed prop. Others will have to comment on what's generally accepted on a 582.

Good luck and have fun shopping.

John L.

[Ralph]

Matt,

I'm no expert on the Dominator, but I think everyone will agree that Ernie is THE expert. If I were doing a first Dominator project, I would listen to the man!

Ralph

[GyroRon]

I weighted 215 when I last flew Ernies Ultrawhite with the 503 and 60 inch prop. It flew fine. It wasn't a powerhouse but had enough power to play around. Matter of fact it performed about as well as my 582 version, but it weights alot less then mine since mine has all the extras the ultrawhites don't have.

So my advise is if you can be happy with a real basic machine just like the ultrawhite then why not save some money and fuel burn and so on and go that way. I also totally agree with the person who suggested to super size your dominator and make it able to use a 68 inch prop. That would make a big difference. If you have the means to do this then I would highly reccomend going this route. I have asked Ernie many times and he never has given me a good reason, but why did he not keep making dominators in the bigger size?

[gyrodude]

The Quicksilver MXLII with a dual carb 503 swings a 68" prop. Use a light prop like a Precision or a Powerfin.

[Chuck Irby]

Matt, I almost totally agree with Ron. The only difference being that I would go with the larger engine. I have a 618 on mine and can cruise at a fuel burn rate of 3.5 GPH.
In addition, there have been times when the extra power sure was nice to have. So my opinion is . . . get the 582!

[GyroRon]

More power is nice, but you have to remember that 3 people will have their money tied up in a non insured play toy. If one of them rolls it over then all three are hurt money wise. Saying that, I would make it as simple and as cheap as possible and when you guys build your own personal machines then go for the big power.

the cost difference between a 582 and 503 is quite large, especially when you factor in the extra stuff you need that doesn't come with the engine such as the radiator 200 - 500$, the coolant expansion chamber - this alone is 200$ - and so on.

I am no a big fan of Hirth but they do make some simple aircooled two strokes like the Rotax 503 but with the power of the 582. 2706 is one of those models and these can be bought for about what the 503 costs. But like I said I am not a big fan of Hirth.

[GyroRon]

If you can make the airframe larger and use the 68 inch prop then this is a must no matter which engine you use. 60 inch prop is just too short and to hold the power you have to put in double to triple Warp drives reccomended maximum pitch.

[Chuck Irby]

Ron, you stated: If you can make the airframe larger and use the 68 inch prop then this is a must no matter which engine you use.

What do you mean by this statement? What is a must?

Also, a radiator is $125 new and 25 to 50 at a junk yard, and the expansion chamber can cost as little as 25 bucks down to almost nothing.

Another also: If the stuff you're saying about the bigger prop and the pitch is so important, why do our machines (yours and mine) do so well with 60" props?

PS: Matt, Ralph gave you some excellent advice, above.

[Udi]

I agree with Ernie’s advice. A Dominator is upgradeable. Start with the cheapest and lightest Dominator and, if and when you are ready, add the pod and a larger engine.

A light and stable machine that gives a solid 300-500 fpm climb rate is, IMHO, the best beginner gyro.

Swinging a 68” prop is nice, but not necessary. The tradeoff is a taller mast.

I also agree with Ralph's comment the Ernie the THE man.

Udi-

[Chuck Irby]

Udi,

Here's where I'm coming from re the bigger engine to start with. I know a guy who has crashed twice now because he didn't have enough power to get him out of trouble. This occurred years after he started flying a gyro.

I readily admit that the 503 is adequate. But why settle for adequate if they don't have to. Remember that one of Matt's partners in their joint venture weighs 230 pounds. 46.5 hp, IMO is marginal at best, for a 230 pound pilot on any gyroplane.

The machine I soloed in is the one I am flying now with the 618 Rotax. The 75 hp that I have has never been a problem for me, so I don't see why 64.4 hp would be for anyone else. In fact, there have been several occasions when I was extremely glad I had the power that I do.

IMO, the machine with a 582 would be a safer machine.

[ToddP]

Well I'm glad we were all able to agree and help clear it up for Matt Here. :)

[Chuck Irby]

Pretty good, Todd. :D Aren't you going to give your opinion?

[ToddP]

I'm going to say go with the true expert on this one. Ernie B. I've heard great things about the 503 powered ultrawhites, just keep the weight down. I would definately use a dual carb 503. As for the stretched frame etc., I wouldn't mess with it, just extra weight and complexity, stick to the standard plans and keep it light.

You can always upgrade an ultrawhite if you want, or like you (Matt) mentioned, build the next one different. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[PW_Plack]

Chuck,

If your friend keeps crashing because he gets himself into trouble, making the machine more powerful may not be the optimum solution. If he gets more horsepower, the next time he gets into trouble, it'll happen with even less available rotor inertia.

[gyromike]

Surplus power shouldn't be a substitute for proper piloting skills.

Learning energy management and proper technique in a lower-powered gyro (or any aircraft) will serve a person well should they decide to upgrade their powerplant.

I agree with Ron A.'s above post concerning the Ultrawhite's performance. Although I did not get a chance to fly it myself, it seemed to perform well with Ron in it, and I believe he was the heaviest (manliest :) )person to fly it.

I can do things in my Mac-powered machine that I couldn't in some others, but if I stay within the aircraft's flight envelope I can still have a safe and enjoyable ride.


Just my opinion.

[MattCline]

Thanks all for your continued comments -- I'm off to see my grandparents in IA and will be away for next week. Will try to get online, so keep your thoughts a'comin!

BTW, is there a gyro flight simulator (for a pusher type) anywhere? If not we need to make one.

Matt

[GyroRon]

Chuck you can throw all kinda of raw power into a 60 inch warp drive prop, but the amount of thrust you get in return is not as much as you think going up the horsepower rung because in order to keep the engine from overspeeding you have to dial in so much pitch on a 60 inch prop that you end up with the prop operating where it wasn't designed to.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but I believe Warp drive reccomends a maximum pitch setting of somewhere around 8 to 10 degrees. I have double that in my Warp with the 582 and 3 to 1 ratio gearbox I am running. To make my prop set up better and make more thrust I would need to go to a lower ratio gearset in my redrive - like a 2 to 1 ratio - or go to a larger diameter prop. The 2 to 1 ratio would be nice but would make my gyro much louder. I also don't think I can get a 2 to 1 for my style gearbox - a C box -

Using the same brand and model prop on a test stand and doing nothing else but going to a larger diameter prop - up to a cetain point where it could be Too big - the larger prop will net you more thrust, in some cases alot more thrust.

Making the dominator airframe larger to use the bigger prop and still using the 503 Rotax, I believe will give you the power of the 582 machine but with the lighter weight of the 503.

And yes it IS alot more expensive to use the 582 over a 503. The price difference of the engines themselves is cose to 2 grand. And the 503 doesn't need a radiator - even if you can get one real cheap from the junkyard!

[Brent_Brown]

I never flown a gyro with a 503 but I have flown a parsons trainer with a 582 and it was not fun. Flying my trainer solo the weight is about 700 pounds and it flys OK. IF you put this motor on a UL type gyro with 60" or more prop it will be great. 60 HP with the weight of the 503. My max RPM is 5800 I have it set for 5400 on the ground. When I get a bigger motor this is going on a UL gyro for the fun of it.
Brent

[Chuck Irby]

Hey Ron, help me out a little, here, please!

You stated: "I don't remember the exact numbers, but I believe Warp drive reccomends a maximum pitch setting of somewhere around 8 to 10 degrees. I have double that in my Warp with the 582 and 3 to 1 ratio gearbox I am running."

It seems by these two statement that you don't realize that Warp Drive only makes one blade, and that it has a built in twist. As far as I know they simply cut off the blades for a 74" prop (whatever their original blade length is) to make them shorter for a 68", or a 60", or whatever someone wants.

Because of the built in twist in their blades, and the fact that the pitch is measured at the blade tips, a 74" prop with a pitch setting of 10 degrees would measure much more pitch if it was measured at 30" from the center instead of 37" from the center . So, as I see it, you are not running anywhere near twice as much pitch as you would be if your prop was 74".

Don't you agree?

[Chuck Irby]

Brent, I am curious as to why you propped your 582 to only turn 5800 rpm.

Also, what is the prop diameter on the trainer?

[Chuck Irby]

GyroMike, you stated: "Surplus power shouldn't be a substitute for proper piloting skills."
I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, even though I did not witness the two incidents that I mentioned earlier, I was told that due to the unusual set of circumstances, which included wind, obstacles, etc., in both cases, had that pilot had more power, he could have prevented both crashes. Whether or not that is the case . . . . I wasn't there. But, it does make sense to me that it is totally possible.

I also realize that a big part of "piloting skills" is knowing when to stay on the ground.

[birdy]

Chuck I.,with respect,I'm gunna argue.
More power will help you out of a sticky situation,but it can also put you into one.
If you fly a marginal machine,you won't push it,but if you'v plenty of power you will,think'n power will get you out of trouble,wich it will,........most of the time.

A marginal machine teaches you to "listen and feel",and respect it for wot it is.

[Aussie_Paul]

You are right Birdy, human nature being what it is, most will tend at some stage to make use of the extra power for other than emergency!!!!

Aussie Paul. :)

[GyroRon]

Brent, I am curious as to why you propped your 582 to only turn 5800 rpm.

Also, what is the prop diameter on the trainer?

Chuck, Brent is not the most specific poster on the forum, but if you pay better attention to ALL of his posts you would know his trainer doesn't use a Rotax 582 engine, it uses a MZ two stroke I believe. And I believe it is one of those type of two strokes made to put out peak power at a lower RPM.

[Chopper Reid]

Right on with you there Birdy !!! Learn on a "marginal machine " and you get to learn lots and appreciate more horses later on ;)
Think its essential that any gyro pilot really needs to learn to "feel the machine" .If you havent got it yet, keep practising !! :D
Just my opion but I would have thought that rotor blade size would have played an imortant part in the power equation ? I started on a set of 24's and then graduated to 26's later and was amazed in the differnce of the same gyro .

[GyroRon]

It seems by these two statement that you don't realize that Warp Drive only makes one blade, and that it has a built in twist. As far as I know they simply cut off the blades for a 74" prop (whatever their original blade length is) to make them shorter for a 68", or a 60", or whatever someone wants.

Because of the built in twist in their blades, and the fact that the pitch is measured at the blade tips, a 74" prop with a pitch setting of 10 degrees would measure much more pitch if it was measured at 30" from the center instead of 37" from the center . So, as I see it, you are not running anywhere near twice as much pitch as you would be if your prop was 74".

Don't you agree?


I don't agree or disagree. I do know that they reccomend a maximum pitch setting of ALOT less than is required to hold back the power of a 582 or larger engine with the 3 to 1 gearbox.

I remember discussing this briefly with Ernie Boyette at this past Bensen Days. On the Single Place Dominator with the Rotax 912s that Scott Lewis flys, Ernie had to notch the prop, or something on the engine - can't remember quite for sure but think it was the prop - for clearance cause he had to put in SOOOOOOO much pitch to hold back that 912.

Having too much pitch means the prop is Stalled or partially stalled. Not a good thing if your looking for maximum thrust.

Bottom line is the larger the prop is and slower you can turn it, the most thrust you are going to get. More thrust = more power.

Some fixed wing ultralights, with 503 Rotax engines turning 72 inch props with a 3.47 to 1 ratio have much more thrust than my 582 turning the 60 inch Warp at 3 to 1.

If you want to kick this around more we can, but maybe Chuck Beaty can come in here and explain this better than me, or just go to Warp Drives web site and send them a email or phone them and ask them.

[Chuck Irby]

Birdy, the two incidents I referred to earlier in this thread were in a marginally powered machine that was being flown by a guy with many hours in that same gyro. Yet he has crashed it twice, just recently. Had he had more power, according to him, he could have avoided both crashes. That's all I was saying. So, I don't see that we are arguing, Birdy.

Part of your statement read "If you fly a marginal machine,you won't push it". That pilot, according to him, needed to push it, but there was nothing left to push with.

Birdy, you and I both have choices as to the engines we use to push us, right? Well, we both have chosen to fly with more horses than is actually required for the machines that we fly.

[birdy]

Wot I meant by "push it" Chuck was,your not going to[less likely anyway]fly it in a dangerous maner by getting into situations where you NEED power.A smart man in a marginal machine won't get too low over rough country in case he hits a strong down draft that the machine can't power out of.

I don't know the incident your refering to,but it still applys.If the machine only has enough power to JUST fly,then it should be flowen only over a salt pan to be sure.Theres no reason to git in to trouble over a salt pan.

[Chuck Irby]

Thanks guys, you have made some very good points. Birdy, mate, I do understand what you're saying.

Consider the following with me guys, please:

I have been strongly considering flying out of my back yard. With a little work, I could have as much as 600 feet, and with a little more work, maybe as much as 800 feet for a strip in a hay field behind my house. There are trees at both ends, but there is an open pasture right next to the hayfield. So in case of a EO without enough runway left to land on I could turn over the pasture to land.

Bogman (Miles Mason) was up here late last week and measured my take off run twice with virtually no wind. It took 375 feet both times. This was at the airport on a nice smooth runway.

Your thoughts on this topic would be most appreciated.

[birdy]

Wots your short takeoff tecnique Chuck.??

For the record,and if your interested,the best the ferel's done to date,several times;
Full fuel
no wind
39c..............DA probably close to 10,000'.
120 paces to brake very soft ,rough sand then clear 40' shrubs[just] inside150 paces.

Our machines being close to the same power to weight[if anything,yours would be better] I can't see 375' being too short.

[Chuck Irby]

Birdy, I'm not sure I totally understand what you're saying above. What do you mean by: I can't see 375' being too short.

When Miles was measuring my TO's, I only had 6 to 7 gallons of fuel. I prerotated to about 180 to 190, then accellerated as fast as I felt I could till I saw just over 200, then opened it up and stayed on the mains till lift-off. which occurs at about 45 MPH IAS, and just 0ver 300 RRPM.

[birdy]

Sorry,I thought you was ask'n if 375' was a reasonable T/O distance.
Wot sort of prerotator have you got.

[Chuck Irby]

Birdy, it's a hydraulic, standard Dominator. So Birdy, are you saying that if you were in my position, you would go ahead and plan to use the hay field for a runway?

[birdy]

If your comfortable with your machine being capable of do'n it in the worst conditions,why not?
Just be sure you can't get caught with no "out gate" if the noise stops or your not go'n to make it.
My electric prerotor would only get to bout 120rrpm max[no rotor tac,just comparing to the RAF] with no wind assist.With the extruded[and the old fabricated blades]I can apply full power from only 120rrpm.Never flaped a blade.With the prerotator still going till the nose wheel lifts off I stick forward to get to min lift off speed asap,and then ease back and stagger off the ground inside 250'.
Only if I have to.

[Chuck Irby]

Thanks for your opinion, Birdy. Wow, 250' with no wind is a pretty short take-off, especially with a limit of 120 RRPM with the prerotator. Sounds like those blades are really providing some lift.

You've given me an idea about maybe going to full acceleration as soon as I prerotate. I'll bet I wouldn't flap either, and this would shorten my take-off distance.

[Brian Jackson]

Quick question: Being a newbee and trying to learn about gyros, what causes blade flapping and how do you prevent it? Can it happen in flight? Thanks.

Brian Jackson

[Chuck Roberg]

Brian, here's a description.

BLADE MANAGEMENT
The slower the rotor is turning, the more difficult it is to get it to accelerate. A rotor will not autorotate much under 40 rpm, The faster the rotor is going, the faster it will accept incoming air to accelerate it. The faster it is going, the more centrifugal force is created and the more stable the rotor becomes. If the rotor is going too slow in rotation to the incoming air, the incoming air will act on the underside of the advancing blade and blow it upward, causing the rotor to flap up in a fore and aft movement. Blade flap is caused when either excessive engine power or too much headwind causes the blades to move through the air without enough rotational speed. The blades have a great deal of inertia and they must be allowed to accelerate with the increasing incoming airflow. When the blades do not have sufficient rotational speed, centrifugal force has not acted upon the blades to give them effective stiffness and they can flap in the incoming air. If unchecked, this will cause the rotor to hit the limiting stops quite violently. Even though the stops keep the rotor from striking the ground or the rear parts of the gyroplane, the blades can bend enough to make ground or aircraft strikes. If this flapping occurs, the speed should be reduced and the stick immediately pushed full forward. Unless the excessive airflow is reduced quickly, the blades may strike the ground or part of the aircraft. In either case, the blades may be damaged or destroyed. :rolleyes:

And yes, it could happen in flight in a negative "G" maneuver. Such as PPO, PIO.

[Udi]

...You've given me an idea about maybe going to full acceleration as soon as I prerotate. I'll bet I wouldn't flap either, and this would shorten my take-off distance.

Chuck - don't forget that you are using the DW blades, which are much more susceptible to flapping than other brands. Be careful.

Udi

[Chuck Irby]

Thank you Udi, you're right! I thought about that too. In fact I had already decided to bounce that off Ernie before I do it.

[birdy]

Remember Chuck,the hint came from a SCG. :p

It'd be best to try it at a bigger strip,gradualy increase power earler .Don't try it from scratch,but always be ready to chop the throttle and ease forward if the stick starts to kick. :)
Remember,if you find you can hit full power from the start of your T/O roll, the machine will want to leave the ground earler.If you break ground without your blades up to "normal" flying rpm,they will be "sluggesh" in their responce for a couple of seconds.
Also,wot would you do if the 618 went quiet befor your got to a comfortable fly'n speed.?? :eek:

[Chuck Irby]

Birdy, good points and good advice! I appreciate your help, mate. SCG???

[birdy]

Simple Cow Grower :D
Chuck,
Also,wot would you do if the 618 went quiet befor your got to a comfortable fly'n speed.??

[Chuck Irby]

Gotcha, BirdMan! :D Thanx again!

Birdy in the other post "Stalled" you mentioned the Ivo Prop. Do you have any experience with an Ivo 2 blade medium? If so, how do you think it would do on my machine? Someone with many years of gyro experience recommended it to me.

[birdy]

I'v only used the small and magnum typs Chuck.I tryed using only 2 magnum blades on the 914 and it nearly flew to bits[engine] when I opened the throttle.Even with three magnum blades ,they is not far off max pitch.

Also,
wot would you do if the 618 went quiet befor your got to a comfortable fly'n speed.??

[Chuck Irby]

"wot would you do if the 618 went quiet befor your got to a comfortable fly'n speed.??"

Birdy, that has happened to me before. I was at the airport with plenty of runway, so it wasn't a problem. I just landed. My fuel pump quit right after lift-off.

My normal cruise rrpm is around 335. I never get off the ground before about 310 rrpm. I then hold it close to the ground till it picks up more rrpm. Within about one second it's at 325 or better. If I do a vertical descent, with no forward air speed, the rotor slows down to about 310. So I feel that I have good lift at that rotor speed. If I were, say 10 feet off the hay field and she went quiet, and I didn't have enough room in front of me to land, I would bank toward the open pasture and land there if I had to. What do you think, Birdy?

[birdy]

Spot on.
If I gota git off short,I do the same.As soon as I break ground I level off to gain airspeed and rrpm.Sometimes this means dodgeing through trees with the machine on the power curve,but I don't try to climb [to me 20' limit] till I'v got SPEED.This way,if things go quiet,it's not so far to "mush" down.[sometimes I wish I had a rotor tac.]
Side slipping is also a safe way to gain rotor and air speed without loosing hight,when your on the curve.

Just do me one favor Chuck,take it easy and ALWAYS have an outgate.

btw,the best thing to do when things go quiet is to bank.This keeps your rotors loaded while your going down.So long as you'v enough dead rudder power you can streighten into the wind just befor you git to the ground.Wether you start from 1000' or 10',if your banking into the wind as you flare you'll have plenty of rotor inertia to land soft,with no ground roll.
I'm lucky here,I can land like that all the time without git'n me a.. chewed.

[Chuck Irby]

BirdMan, I appreciate you keepin on with me about this. You're causing me to thoroughly think this thorough. In a hard bank, I have seen 400 rrpm, so I definitely know what you're talkin about with the banking and rotor speed. I will definitely do quite a bit of testing at the airport before I take off from the hay field. You're a great help, mate.

[Udi]

...Side slipping is also a safe way to gain rotor and air speed without loosing hight,when your on the curve...

Would you care to elaborate, Birdy?

Udi

[birdy]

Yup.
Tho it'll be difficult coz I don't usualy take much notice of wot I'm do'n,just concentrate on wot I want to do.I'v said someware befor,It's hard to explain something that is done subconsiously.
But ,as I see it,when your on the power curve,and can't get over the "hump" ,or don't want to go any further forward,you apply a little side stick,letting the machine slip sideways.When your on the curve,the prop has alot of the machines weight,so side slipping keeps the weight on the prop ,alowing the airspeed to build,without sacrificing any alt.
Of course there's not much of a speed gain,but anything is an advantage.
Once you'v gained this little extra airspeed,you rudder the nose into the new wind direction and stick forward a little and you git off the curve without hit'n the ground.

Greater airspeed =greater rrpm and flatter disc.

When I git this video happen'n I'll be able to understand better meself too.

[MattCline]

All -

The original issue no longer applies; my friends died last week doing what they loved, flying. I am not sure if poor judgement, aircraft failure, or some combination of the two are to blame.

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pittsburgh/s_207853.html

Matt

[MikeBoyette]

Matt,
The link didn't work please elaborate.

[Vance]

I am sorry for your loss. I am always working on fun projects with good friends and I would not want the dream to end with my death. It takes time to deal with a loss of good friends and fellow dreamers. Every day I miss my best friend Roger Ramjett, who died on a motorcycle several years ago and each time I work on a project that he would love, it gives me pleasure. Thank You, Vance

[Chuck Irby]

Matt, I am so sorry for your loss. That hurts. I lost my lifelong best friend in the Reno Air Races just two years ago. I don't think you'll ever get over it completely.

[Udi]

I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your two friends, Matt. I hope you have the will to carry on the dream.

Udi

[Brian Jackson]

CMU workers die in plane crash in Colorado

Two Carnegie Mellon University employees were killed in a plane crash in Colorado.
Quinn Peyton, 31, and his uncle, Kenneth Meyer, 54, died Monday, when their small plane slammed into the summit of Monarch Pass in southwest Colorado, said the Gunnison County Sheriff's Office in a statement Wednesday.

Witnesses said the Cessna 172 made a hard right turn, lost speed and plunged nose-first into the mountainside. The plane burst into flames about 200 feet from the Continental Divide.

Peyton was a member of the technical staff at CMU's Software Engineering Institute, where he did computer-security work, said CMU spokeswoman Teresa Thomas last night. He had been employed at CMU since 1998 and was a member of the Computer Emergency Response Team.

Meyer was a machine-shop foreman in the Chemical Engineering Department, Thomas said.

"All of the university is mourning the loss of these staff members," she said. "It's a tragedy for the university and certainly for their families."

Gunnison County Coroner Frank Vader said last night that he doesn't know the exact address of either man.

The crash, reported about 5:30 p.m. Monday, briefly closed U.S. Highway 50 over the Monarch Pass.

Vader said he believes the two men were returning from California.

Peyton and Meyer had refueled in Montrose and were headed for Nebraska, said Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Mike Fergus. The plane was registered to Keystone State Aviation in Wilmington, Del.

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating.

[birdy]

Without try'n to sound crass and hartless to Matt and his friends,I woz wunder'n how you were gittn on Chuck.??

I'm sorry for your loss Matt.


Start another thread on short takeoffs if you like Chuck.

[Chuck Irby]

Hello Bird Man,

Thanks for thinking of me.

The guy who owns the land/hay field right behind my property had told me I could use it for taking off and landing. Well, to make a long story short, he craw fished (backed out) on me. So at the present, I have on incentive to pursue the STO.

I've had my machine here in my barn for the last few days fixing a broken weld that supports the radiator, adding a redundant fuel pump/system, and making a 3/8" plate to replace the 1/4" plate that supports my pre rotator pump. I've broken three of the pump mounting flanges (they're 32 bucks apiece). Hopefully this will give it the support it needs. I'm hoping to finish it up today and take it back down to the airport. I'll feel safer with the back up fuel system.

How've you been, Birdy, and how's the weather down under this time of the year?

[birdy]

Go 'n' kick the craw fishes ass :mad: ,the lousy bastered :( .Some people just don't understand ay. ;) :D
Never mind,you don't need a stort dirt to take off short anyway.

The weather is git'n better,muster'n with only a jacket on yesterday,bout 25c and dry. :D

[Doug Riley]

I believe our friend Raghu teaches at Carnegie-Mellon, too.

On those hydraulic pumps, Chuck, the flanges do crack easily. Check yours to make sure that it sits flat against the mounting plate. Sometimes there's excess metal left from casting that makes the flange tend to have a "rocking chair" curve on the bottom. Tightening it then pulls the two ears down and cracks them. File it flat. Also watch for the position of the two washers under the bolt heads. They should have cutouts that keep the edge of the washer from digging into the radius between the flange and the rest of the pump body. The washers have to have a pretty large "crescent moon" cutout, and no sharp edges/corners to dig into the pump body.

I did these things on mine and haven't had any cracks since... (or yet...)

Back a few posts, someone asked what flapping was. The essence of it is retreating-blade stall. The retreating blade has an airspeed equal to its rotational speed MINUS the gyro's forward speed. Add to this the fact that the action of the teeter hinge automatically increases the retreating blade's pitch, compared to the advancing blade. If you go too fast before RRPM is up, the retreating blade sees too little airspeed and too much angle of attack, and stalls. Then the rotor seesaws violently, like a teeter-totter does when one kid jumps off. The rotor may collide with the ground, prop or tail.

It won't occur as a sudden, destructive event in flight unless you lose too much rotor RPM. A portion of each blade near the hub is always stalled in flight, but that's of no consequence. Catastrophic loss of RRPM can come from sustained low-G maneuvers.

[Chuck Irby]

Doug, thanks for the tip. However, I believe my problem was due to the following:

The original 1/4" plate was probably made from 6061 T6, (I don't know that for sure, since I didn't make it). It got messed up, and the first flange broke, when I crashed the machine back in April, just after meeting you at BD's. I replaced that plate with a piece of "who knows what" aluminum. It, like the original, was 1/4" thick and a lot more flexible than 6061 T6. I think the 3/8" thick "who knows what" aluminum is as stiff as the 1/4" 6061 T6. So maybe it will give proper support. I mounted it with 3/8" bolts, real close to the pump body.

[Doug Riley]

Chuck, OK, crashing is another story. You might still want to use some large fender washers, with cutouts as I mentioned, between the mount bolt heads and the flange to spread the load a bit.

[Chuck Irby]

Good point, Doug. If I can't find a real thick washer, then maybe two 1/16" thick ones on each side will do the trick.

[helopilot]

Ya know,
That's probably one of the most understated TRUTHS in aviation. Whether it's take off, enroute or landing; it doesn't matter. Always have an "outgate" in mind (hard plan, not wishfull thinking). If the 618 goes quiet or the weather closes in or the wind picks up to 40 kts head wind or any of the thousand things that can go wrong....go wrong....go wrong...
Where is the nearest airfield i.e. gas,tie down maint.? Where is the closest suitable forced landing area? What if the engine started running rough just after point of no return?
Birdy, as a beef-buster, is almost always in that immediate reaction, "what if", situation. He never lets that machine take him where is mind hasn't already been. When he does his "reverse flare "Lumchavick" (sic), there isn't an attitude/altitude combination that he feels he can't recover from if the engine packs it in. Of couse he has one or two hours doing this and has used up two or three normal humans lifetime supply of adreneline in the process but listen to the thought process he goes through when he talks about it. He knows his machine and himself and he has had more than a flirtation with Lady Luck! Get to know your machine.....get to know yourself......and pray to Lady Luck and what ever Gods may be and..... Always...Always....have your "OUTGATE"!

Dennis