Little Wing LW-4

[Screw]

Here's a shot of my fuselage being constructed...The two sides are in the "Joining Jig." :o

John-

[ToddP]

John,

Is this a picture that Ron sent you? Its looking good.

[GyroRon]

Looks pretty heavy! must take a Pratt and Whitney radial to fly that beast! ;D

[ToddP]

All cold-roll steel. Airframe shouldn't go over 4200 lbs. ;)

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

What engine are you going to use?

I am planning on the radial.

[ToddP]

Chuck,

I remember you mentioned that you ordered plans. Did you order a kit also? I can't wait to see one of these fly.

[donshoebridge]

Outstanding! I think this will be the first Allison turbine powered gyro in the world. BTW, where are you going to find a C-130 engine for that pig? ;D

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

I ordered the plans only, Ron should have them in the mail any day now.

I have a hangar at the airport and will build it there to pass time.

The plan is to start a gyor training business, if I ever get rid of my overseas flying business.... sh.t I am about to accept another contract for at least one year flying for a Television documentry all over Brazil.

How can I pass up such easy money as flying for a documentary film?

I wonder if a guy could put a turbo prop engine on it?

No...it would look ugly as hell.

[Screw]

Hi All,

Yes. Ron is building for me....I'm planning to use the radial, and yes, plans are comming also.

I'm still up in the air about the powerplant...I don't have nor have I made a deposit on the radial, but I'm leaning that way.

Most of what you can see in that shot is the frame and the jig. Jig is sold seperately. ;D

John-

[mcbirdman]

I lightened it but it still looks heavy ;)http://

[Screw]

How's that grab ya :o

[Screw]

BTW-Since I'll be needing an engine, I have a Jag for sale ;D
Also a 1972 Buick Skylark 400 convertable. :o

[GyroRon]

As cool as the Radial looks and probably sounds, I personally don't know enough about them to plunk down all that money for such a new engine from a small company. My money would be on a rotax 912s or if you got enough to spend a 914.

Or if it would work I would save several grand and go Subaru.

[Screw]

Thanks Ron,

I am truely in debate with a powerplant for some of the reasons you have mentioned. BTW- You also left out the possibuility of a Hirth.

I love your Pacer....You got to let me fly it one day.

Steven,

I don't know who that is holding that frame. It was a pic I got off of Ron's website. That isn't my frame, but it is one of Ron Herrons Frames that he produces. I think that one is a single seat. Yes, I believe they are that light.

John-

[scottessex]

Shoot Boy!! You need to wear that KB2 out first! ;D
You'll be like me and my motorcycles! I just picked up another one last night, now I have 4 in the garage and 7 out in the shed!!!
Are you getting the 2 seater? If so, that's okay, that way you will be able to give rides, and still keep your hot rod KB2 for bar hoppin'. ;D

[Screw]

Scotty!!!!

I do intend to wear that KB-2 slap out. I still have to get the head and pre-rotator to Steve.

I am starting this 2 seat poject. Just having work that I don't know how to do done. Don't expect the LW-4 to be complete anytime soon.

Wish you had a passion for 72 Buick Skylarks like you do bikes. Hell of a muscle car. ;D

Be good

john-

[GyroRon]

John, I wouldn't even consider a Hirth. too much money for such a cranky and troublesome engine. Go find 10 people that have bought and flown a Hirth and I will be willing to bet at least 6-7 of them had a problem of some sorts, many major problems.

I don't think the problem is that they are two strokes. I think the problem is poor workmanship in the product itself.

It is one thing to put a few grand and some time into a neat auto conversion. It is another to spend 10-15 grand on a engine that has a limited track history. The Jabirus are building a track record but even they have a fair amount of issues to work through. The Rotax 912 is just a dam fine engine and one you can't go wrong with. It is a no gamble choice in my book. The Radial looks great but what if the company folds in six months? Or if it just turns out to be a piece of crap? Besides, don't radials normally have a much lower TBO than a Horizontal engine?

[Screw]

Hi All,

Found 2 deals on some engines, just don't know if they are the deal for me:

1. Rotax 914 turbo...Engine only says, "low time," but not sure on exact time. No intake, no carbs, no exhaust, or no turbo. Engine only for $1700. Have no idea on cost to get running and overhaul. ???

2. Lycomming O-290-D on an Airboat. Don't know engine time, but it is complete and running. Boat and all 2000.00
Don't know how much an overhaul would be. this engine is rated @125-130hp and wieghs 230lbs.

I'm considering several differant engine options and all seem to be over 12k. Wondering if I could do better money wise with one of these, and if cost would be the same, if I'd come out better engine wise, with the certified O-290-D.

John-

[Screw]

Found out I could get a Certified Factory Reman O-235 from 11k-14k with no core exchange. 115hp TO 108 continues.

john-

[GyroRon]

The O-235 has a 2400 TBO. That would be my choice. sell the Jag and get busy John ;D

The Lycomings may be heavier but have much more torque due to the larger cylinders. I think it is a fair tradeoff.

On Barnstormers or Trade a plane magazine, you can find engines that are close to TBO for much much less than you might think. Often they are still on the plane and flying so you can go look, fly and know what your buying. I figure you could find a nice running Certified - not a old airboat engine - O-290 or O-235 for under 5 grand complete ready to run.

[Brent_Brown]

Go for a Corvair 100 HP at 225 pounds they have been flying for a long time.

[Brent_Brown]

looks like a AC motor

[Brent_Brown]

front

[Screw]

Hey Brent,

Where h*ll have you been. Hope all worked out with that fellow that was buying one of your engines. You wouldn't have a spare Rotax 914 hanging out would you?

Found out from Ron Herron that a certified Lycoming would be pretty heavy for that airframe and his strongest recommendation is for the rotax 912s, 914, or the Rotec Radial. Either way I go, it looks like I'll be part of the "10k or more for an Engine" club.

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that when you want to give people rides, you have to pay double for an engine? I think Ron Awad should be the first person I give a ride too, and he should come up with half the cost of an engine strong enough to carry his over weight ass ;D Sell that "Pimp Daddy" ride of yours, and help a friend I say.

Don't worry Steven, I won't tell folks how much you've spent getting your gyro together, if you wont tell folks about me.

I can only hope that one day, I can wake up one morning and not hear my son crying and my wife b*tching at our daughter about getting ready for school. I'll have a coffee pot that can produce Dunkin Doughnut Coffee on demand. I'll look out my bay window to an open field and grass strip, with my gyros on-line, parked, begging me to take this one or the other for a ride.

The sun is breaking and the fly-in will start in a few hours. My wife decided to get on the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader work-out diet, and a fresh Tan-in-a-can. After 2 minutes of conversation she realizes I'd have much more fun at the fly-in by myself, than with her, and she is "OK" with it. She will even volunteer to fuel the gyro of my choice, before feeding the children, so that I won't be late.

My son, is old enough to want to go with his dear old Dad to a fly-in and fly that, now old KB-2, and meet these strange fellows that his Dad calls "Pimp Daddy Ron, and Thumy-Wan-Kanobee." We leave my wife, his Mom in our gyros, flying in formation East, South, West, North, wherever that damn fly-in is. Both of us carry "N" number gyros and are appropiately rated pilots, stopping in at any airport for breakfast and fuel.

Flying in formation all the way to the designated fly-in where we properly demonstrate high altitude engine out landings awing the crowd of gyronauts, and Chuck E. shakes my hand.

When people ask me, "Wouldn't the money spent flying gyros been better spent flying Cessnas, I ask them, "What has your Cessna done for you lately?"

John-

[GyroRon]

I think the fact that it is a little wing and they are somewhat rare, yet would appeal strongly to fixed wing pilots, AND the fact that no expense was spared on the birds construction..... John would be able to get a good amount of his investment back at resale if needed.

Now saying that, I being the party pooper I am..... I think it is very risky to invest so much money into a machine that may not be able to be insured. I just got insurnace a short while ago on a certified plane and there was only about 3 choices or providers. For a experimental gyroplane you may have Zero choices! :-[

I also think it is smarter for John to go Rotax than Rotec. Just not a long enough history behind the Rotec IMHO.

Over and out Pimp Daddy Ron 8)

[Brent_Brown]

John I bet my Corvair is less weight than the Rotec thing. I ron about putting the corvair on a LW he said he would not put it on anything so I went with another tracter JE2 and will fly it with that corvair. Good luck

[RHerron]

Brent,

Unless you use a redrive, there is no way the Corvair will come close to the Rotec radial in performance. Do you think the Corvair will sling a 76 inch prop with 50 inches of pitch?
You don't have to fly it to prove to me that a Corvair will fly a gyro. I am quite sure it can produce enough power to fly.
If you start with the idea that you are going to use a particular engine "or bust" then there is no need to ask someone's opinion. You asked me and I responded. It was only "my opinion" as requested...nothing more.
Good luck with your project.

[Brent_Brown]

No Ron not that big, but I did see one with a 72" warp drive it was loud as all but pulled OK. I never said it would out run or pull the rotec. I will say it is about the same weight, 1/2 the price or more and was made in the USA. That is hard to find today. I'm gald you told me your opinion about the corvair. I didn't want to use it in a LW if you said not to so that is all I was looking for. Yes, I was set on using this motor. now I have to eat it one bite at a time. for good or bad. I was not bad mouthing you or your gyros.
Brent

[RHerron]

Brent,

I would love to see the Corvair do a good job for you. and I would not be adverse to using one if it did pan out.
" For better of worse" is the same situation I am in with the Rotec. So far, it is "for better" and I don't regret the purchase even a little bit.
One almost has to see one of them up close to appreciate the workmanship that goes into them.
When asked what engines I recommend for the two-place, the order of recommendation goes like this: Rotax 914, Rotax 912S, Rotec radial. The Rotax 900's are probably the best engine on the market as far as track record goes. Andy Keech's 914 used about a quart of oil on the entire 7000 mile trek he just finished.
Runs as smooth as silk too. Maybe I should have bought one for my personal LW but I just couldn't resist the opportunity to put a real radial on at least one of them.
As it turns out, the radial has several very positive attributes. It has gobs of power, runs very smoothly, runs quiet, has electric start and a 35 amp alternator, dual ignition (one mag and one electronic), runs very cool cylinder head temps and very low oil temp, even though it doesn't use an oil cooler. I feel certain it puts out as much power as the 912S and perhaps the 914.
I get a lot of flack for not trying Subarus on the two-place. Maybe I will someday but I can't see them looking like they belong there. The Sub4 appeals to me the most.
I will be very happy when you get your machine done and, seriously, I wish you the best with it.

[KevinKing]

Ron, I saw your Rotec up close at Mentone. I will admit I don't know much about engines, but I was very impressed. If I hadn't seen you flying it earlier, I would have sworn you had just taken it out of it's box and polished and waxed it. There was no dirt, no oil, not so much as a smashed bug on it anywhere. All other engines are ugly hunks of metal compared to the Rotec. I was also impressed by how quiet it was.

[GyroRon]

So what your saying Kevin is Ron's machine is a hangar queen? ;D

[Screw]

Don't start nothin Ron.....

[RHerron]

John,

Got your check today. Thanks! The airframe is coming along nicely. I will have it out of the frame jig in a few days and then will post some pictures for you.
The time-consuming part comes next....all the fittings and tabs and seat frames, etc.
I will need to know pretty soon what engine you will be using so Iwill know where to mount the landing gear.

[Screw]

Thanks Ron H.,

Would you post those pics directly to this thread. I'll copy from here.

You let me know when you need that engine answer and I'll committ to something.

John-

[Hognose]

Yes, I believe they [Ron's frames] are that light.



A lot of people seem to have forgotten this, but steel tube and fabric remains the lightest way of building an airplane. Ron's design is not only traditional engineering, but it's good practical engineering for the job.

cheers

-=K=-

[Hognose]

A couple of you have suggested that the Rotec radial is a nice engine, but you are concerned about supportability.

We know that the Paul Cherniakoff & Co. have a good little motor (and like Ron says, you really have to see it close up -- it's like Swiss watchworks) but we all have also seen even well-known and established vendors fail because of the strange dynamics of this business.

Here is a suggestion from the world of software business. Many vendors of bespoke systems for vertical markets wish to preserve the security of their source code. There are many reasons for this, one of the big ones being that often options that are sold to customers for large sums, when all that is required to turn them on is to change a single line or to comment out code in one module and recompile. Another being that, once your source is out of your personal control, it's really OUT there. And you will wind up competing with your own technology sure as sunrise.

But... customers ask, what happens if your company goes Tango Uniform? Especially if it is a small firm (sound familiar?) in a fickle market (ditto?). So the answer is source code escrow. A trusted third party, such as a bank, holds a data package. The customer does not have access to it unless a triggering event occurs. The triggering event is established in the contract; it can be bankruptcy, death of a principal, etc.

So... my suggestion to Paul and all at Rotec Radal Engines Pty would be for them to develop a data package escrow and some boilerplate contract language. Their motor is made, as far as I know, completely from CNC machined castings so with that data package anyone could have wear and overhaul parts made without resorting to costly and risky reverse engineering.

The contract could also be worded in such a way as to liberate the Intellectual Property of the company if the firm were destroyed, say, by a lawsuit -- a poison pill or parthian shot at the plaintiff who hoped to profit (we have seen in the last couple years several kit airplane companies taken over subsequent to lawsuit judgments, and the consumers have usually been as screwed as the losing principals).

Just thinking out loud here, boys.

cheers

-=K=-

[Brent_Brown]

Hey John put a Harley on it. I would like to see a gyro with one. The guys at hogair are flying a ch601 and offer the motor. looks and sounds great. Come on be the one to do it.

[KevinKing]

So what your saying Kevin is Ron's machine is a hangar queen? ;D


No, I'm saying it looks like a "hangar queen", but it actually gets flown. I have a picture of it in the air if you need proof.

[Screw]

Brent,

I don't know about using a Harley Davidson Motor. I would know if the stick shake was from the blades or the engine :-

I'm not too worried about Rotec folding up. There support seems really good, and there seem to be alot of folks using this motor in their kitplanes as well.

I'm having trouble deciding on an engine as well as paint scheme. I think I want to go with the radial, but I'm sure the 914 is a much better performer. The 912s, I think, is just the least expensive way to go and will work ok. I choose the radial over the 912 and if money were know object, the 914 would be the way to go.

As far as paint scheme, I've always done the traditional orange and with with a checkerboard tail. I'm kinda board with it. If I get this radial with all that polished aluminum, I'll have to get a paint scheme that'll help set it off.

John-

[scottessex]

I wondered about the harley engine, having been around them for years. Of course you would have to have "thick skin" as the "if harley built an airplane, would you fly in it?" and other such comments would never end. The new B series engine is counter balanced, and very smooth I might add. Plus with all the after market performance products out here getting 100 plus HP is not hard.
Has anyone seen the Moto Guzzi engines? The US gov uses them on some of the unmanned drones. That also would be a sweet package.


Hey john, check out some of the new 140+ hp jet ski engines! Of course, the rotec just has it over all the others in looks alone! Lt me know when you go back to Steve's if we get any good weather around here.

[jolly467]

???

Hey Ron,

How's about a Franklin 4 Cylinder....125 HP and a few pounds lighter than the ROTEC.....think that might be a doer for the 2 place LW?

Steve Wages
N658C

[RHerron]

Steve,

I don't know about the Franklin. I suspect it would be OK if it really puts out 125 hp. Do you think it would weigh less than the Rotec if it had a starter and alternator? I rather doubt it.
The Rotec weighs about the same as a Continental 0-200.
Anyway, the Franklin might not be a bad choice but I couldn't tell you first hand.

[GyroRon]

That looks small. Two people fit inside? Two real american people - 200 pounders?

[RHerron]

Two, yes.

[jolly467]

Ron,

Here's my thinking on the Franklin 4 cylider...It was designed as a direct competitor to the O-200, weighs 206 lbs dry (no accessories), is rated at 125 hp @ 2800 rpm...the benefits to me are these - certified engine, mounts directly to an O-200 mount (readily available), I can rebuild one much cheaper than I can buy any of the Rotax (or unfortunately the ROTEC :(), with the accessories mounted I still should be in the 240 lb range... I am familiar to some degree with the Franklin family of engines (the fixed wing I am selling right now is a Stinson 108-3 with the 165hp Franklin 6 cyl) and am fond of them (much smoother than the Continentals - Lycomings out there...in my opinion)... These engines are currently being manufactured new so support should be there... My only question would be if the weight and power would be too much for the airframe in question in your opinion - my guess is that it would be ok but in the upper bounds for the aircraft... believe me, if I had the funds for the ROTEC - I would be all over it, but 19.5 K is too much for me - heck, you can probably talk somebody out of an R-985 for that kind of money! ;D. I cut my mechanic's teeth working on a Kinner 5 cylinder radial and a Lambert radial too....still have burn marks on my knuckle from a Jacobs exhaust as well....

Thanks for designing a bird that has all of my loves - rotors and fabric!!!!

Steve Wages
N658C
A+P, IA, Comm MEL, RW - Heli, Inst

[ToddP]

John,

I just saw a Rotax 914 on e-bay. It would need some work, but might be a deal.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2974467312

[Screw]

Thanks Ron,

The frame looks great. What a Christmas Present.

Ron A., I'll make sure you can fit in front.

Todd, I saw that motor on ebay. I think that motor will need alot before running. After the overhaul, you'll need intake and exhaust manifolds, Carbs or fuel injectors, and don't forget the turbo.

I'd rather buy a running motor then spend twice as much getting fixer-upper together.

I hope all have a Merry Christmas.

John-

[RHerron]

Steve,

The Rotec can be bought for a lot less than 19.5K.
The Rotax 914 will cost about 20K however.
I think the Franklin will be OK weight-wise and certainly, power-wise. Do you have any cost figures for it?


Ron H

[RHerron]

Front view

[jolly467]

Ron,

Just got off the email with one of my Franklin parts folks - he says the going rate for these engines has varied from $5,000.00 to $9,000.00 new (which concurs with the data from the major importer of the new PZL/Franklin engines)...My guy here has bought / sold 6 in the last couple of years and has 2 in stock now....slightly different model numbers but both in the 120hp range..... I seem to remember in your article about the ROTEC that you got a deal on it since you purchased it an an airshow (?). Any idea what the current street price is here in the States? ???

Steve Wages

[Screw]

Jolly,

Direct from Australia, I got mine for 12,500. From a distributor in the states, $14,500.

By the way, I just ordered a rotec Radial for my LW-4 ;D

John-

[rfonseca]

Where could I get more information on the Franklin engine?

Ramon
Panama's Dominator

[gyromike]

Ramon,

Here is a Franklin distributor site:

http://franklinengines.com/index.cfm