New 3-seater, Xenon XL

[Gyro_Kai]

Hello,

The German distributor leaked some pictures of Celier's next hit: A 3-seater Xenon.

http://www.aerolightcenter-mueritz.de/xenon019.htm

The link is in German:
"The sensation..on the international Xenon-dealers convention in Warsaw was the introduction of the 3-seater Gyroplane Xenon XL. Nobody saw that coming. Raphael Celier introduced his latest development to the ecstatic public and impressed with astonishing flight maneauvers. The Gyroplane is constructed the same way as the Xenon 2 but with a larger rotor and a 140 HP Rotax engine. This opens new areas for the application of this enclosed gyroplane which had formerly been reserved to helicopters. Further details will soon be revealed."
The comments for the pictures:
"roomy cabin for three passengers (top)"
"glass cockpit by MGL in the Xenon XL (left)"
"model 2008 (right)".

My personal opinion:
This seems to be the goal, where J2 and A18 originally wanted to be. A plane that can actually pick up an injured person despite 2 crew-members.

Way to go, and hopefully the slowly evolving new European regulations will make room for this type of plane.

Kai.

[animal]

man that is cool, maybe someday in the future we will see some local FBO's get some of these and have flight training and rentals, wouldn't that be great.

I hope I live long enough to see gyros get into main stream avaition.

[troed@aon.at]

Wow that IS something !

But how the heck does he get 140 hp out of the Rotax 912 ?

And why the heck does he not put the 140 hp-machine on the XENON 2 ?

Would increase performance unbeatable (Vcruise 100 mph!)

And put a VP-Prop in the back and You fly at 13-15liters gas per hour.

Stunning !

Angelo

[Gyro_Kai]

Hello Angelo,

There might be another Rotax engine installed in this one(non aviation). I guess we will hear more details of this marvel soon.

Btw. for Germany only the 912s (100hp) version of Xenon 2 is approved, because the few kg more for the turbo would extend over the weight limit.



Kai.

[troed@aon.at]

Yeah, but THAT´s gonna change by the end of the year as I heard roumors from Germany ´bout the new weight limit of 560kgs.

We´ll see......

Angelo

[PTKay]

Yeah, but THAT´s gonna change by the end of the year as I heard roumors from Germany ´bout the new weight limit of 560kgs.

We´ll see......


Angelo, there is nothing to see.

This is law in Europe since March.
Only the local country regulations have to be adapted to the EU Regulation 216/2008.

See here:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:079:0001:0049:EN:PDF

Look at the ANNEX II
Aircraft referred to in Article 4(4)
Article 4(1), (2) and (3) do not apply to aircraft falling in one or more of the categories set out below:
....
(f) single and two-seater gyroplanes with a maximum take off mass not exceeding 560 kg;

The only problem remains, that the rule does not apply to the 3-seaters... :(

[RotorTom]

I love the fact that Raphael is always thinking of new things but I need to ask the obvious question: Why?

A three-place Gyro is not allowed in the US nor in most other countries without "certification". So, it would have to be sold as a kit. And that negates "commercial" applications.

Without certification, gyros will always be on the fringe of aviation. I wish someone would bite the bullet and get a gyro certified. However, I'm told Gyro certification is an impossibility under the current rules and regulations.:noidea:

[bowns]

Looks as elegant as 2 seater,only much more roomy and functional.What a gift to the leggy cranes.But PTKay,I feel confused at these Xenons.Some of them seem to have a beefy round tube mast,others with a different outfit.Are all Xenons use round tube as mast,or they are different from model to model?



bowns

[Jazzenjohn]

Xenon with floats! http://www.aerolightcenter-mueritz.de/xenon018.htm

http://www.aerolightcenter-mueritz.de/xenon018.htm

[All_In]

I love the fact that Raphael is always thinking of new things but I need to ask the obvious question: Why?

A three-place Gyro is not allowed in the US nor in most other countries without "certification". So, it would have to be sold as a kit. And that negates "commercial" applications.

Without certification, gyros will always be on the fringe of aviation. I wish someone would bite the bullet and get a gyro certified. However, I'm told Gyro certification is an impossibility under the current rules and regulations.:noidea:Certification could be done but very expensive and the time required can take longer than technology to pass you by. I have seen this with friends working alone and especially with electronic products but applies to all. By the time it’s certified all you have is an old style certified aircraft that no one wants anymore.
I think there is a catch 22 available to us all. It's legal to sell a used 30 place experimental aircraft.
If a company would step forward and build a new state-of-the-art jigged aircraft test fly them and then sell them as used with each employee being the registered builder! Once you build a reputation for building safe quality (USED?) aircraft you could accomplish the same thing using their rules against them? This could work until they change the rules, which might not happen if you are really making the industries safer. With the governments there is no guarantee they will be logical in any way, but think with your help we may test the issue with a couple of the members designs and see what happens in a year or so I’ll be ready to try.

[PTKay]

But PTKay,I feel confused at these Xenons.Some of them seem to have a beefy round tube mast,others with a different outfit.Are all Xenons use round tube as mast,or they are different from model to model?


I have never seen a round tube mast on Xenon.

There are round fairings on the H profile mast in front and back.
(and sometimes they are just missing)
Maybe this is what you take for a round tube ??

[PTKay]

... but think with your help we may test the issue with a couple of the members designs and see what happens in a year or so I’ll be ready to try.

There is much better way the successful new certified aircraft have taken.

Make an experimental kit, iron all the bugs out, then certify.

Look at the way Lancair - Columbia - Cessna 350-400 took.

Practical, effective and successful.

AFAIK Cirrus went the same way...

So maybe this is the path Rafaeal is aiming at.

Although Seawind 300 failed on this path... :(

[All_In]

There is much better way the successful new certified aircraft have taken.

Make an experimental kit, iron all the bugs out, then certify.

Look at the way Lancair - Columbia - Cessna 350-400 took.

Practical, effective and successful.

AFAIK Cirrus went the same way...

So maybe this is the path Rafaeal is aiming at.

Although Seawind 300 failed on this path... :(Yes that could work. But I'm concerned over losing control of the building process and then our reputation would be lost before certification. Also my main theory:
The real problem I have is supplying several rich friends with open frame gyros (off road type) built by a manufacture producing exactly the aircraft each time. The experimental category I suspect is the main reason the rich don’t buy amateur built anything today and thus use gyro’s at the major world off-road racing events even though they would solve so many problem’s and provide a video record of the race and so much fun at the same time.

I suspect that once the six of us start showing up and landing next to them they will want one and training today not tomorrow built by a manufacture as I described and my nephew will be there to sell them both in San Diego California with a vacation in Mexico too if they wish.

Having my brother build the fist six is the only way we could get them to play now! None want to even really take training in anything else.

We are going to have to build them many anyway and either lie and have them say they built it like we do now in the industry, which I won’t do, or build them and sell them as used or we lose these rich guys at least!

It’s just a theory but it’s going to be a lot of fun experimenting and see what grows!

I am a very long-term planner; nothing may happen at all but if it does it won’t be because I’m not ready for the volume of sales and training. Even if I don't have to do it mostly by myself! This will require more than a year of setup and then there is promotion just to really start!

[PW_Plack]

FAA certification costs in the US are staggering. New composite fixed-wing aircraft are commonly in the $50-million USD range before they get their certificates. If you design an aircraft which will sell only a few hundred copies at best, it makes no sense to go down this road. Produce 500, and you have a $100,000-per-unit cost just to cover the regulatory process.

If the US doesn't solve this issue, other nations which want the jobs more than we apparently do will end up building everything for us.

[All_In]

@Paul
Could not agree more with your understanding especially the last statements prediction.

[troed@aon.at]

Angelo, there is nothing to see.

This is law in Europe since March.
Only the local country regulations have to be adapted to the EU Regulation 216/2008.

Hi PTKay !

THAT is very good news, I wonder why I didn´t hear that´s already law ? Anyway, makes possible to build safer aircraft and to fly the ULs legally ´cause in reality all commercially built gyros with 2 persons on board and full tanks fly above weight limit of 450 kgs. :sorry:

All_in:

What I can read here from You is horrible !!!! Does FAA really want to kill our sport ? There are now serious factory built gyros (take Magni as the oldest manuf with an excellent safety-record) and no way to buy & fly ?

Composite Technology allows to build aircraft "in the whole" safer and lighter but how the heck can You build e.g. a XENON yourself 51 % ? Wonder if it´s accepted that You just assemble the parts delivered (with Composite aircraft there are very little .... )

What will the future of gyroplanes be in the US ?

Angelo

[Gyro_Kai]

Hi PTKay !

THAT is very good news, I wonder why I didn´t hear that´s already law ? Anyway, makes possible to build safer aircraft and to fly the ULs legally ´cause in reality all commercially built gyros with 2 persons on board and full tanks fly above weight limit of 450 kgs. :sorry:
....

Angelo


Hello,

the European regulation only sets an outer boundary, the countries have to interpret this to their own needs. I don't think that for example Germany will allow for gyroplane to be heavier than fixed wing, only because it's possible.

Kai.

[All_In]

Hi PTKay !

THAT is very good news, I wonder why I didn´t hear that´s already law ? Anyway, makes possible to build safer aircraft and to fly the ULs legally ´cause in reality all commercially built gyros with 2 persons on board and full tanks fly above weight limit of 450 kgs. :sorry:

All_in:

What I can read here from You is horrible !!!! Does FAA really want to kill our sport ? There are now serious factory built gyros (take Magni as the oldest manuf with an excellent safety-record) and no way to buy & fly ?

Composite Technology allows to build aircraft "in the whole" safer and lighter but how the heck can You build e.g. a XENON yourself 51 % ? Wonder if it´s accepted that You just assemble the parts delivered (with Composite aircraft there are very little .... )

What will the future of gyroplanes be in the US ?

Angelo

I agree and not sure about gyroplanes in the US?

But the same 51% rules apply to FW builders and there are many co’s who all they do it actually build composite experimental aircraft for the rich now and the FAA is looking the other way because they know the aircraft built by our friends (professionals) are far safer than if the owner actually build them themselves.
Maybe they will do the same for us?

[brett s]

Lately the FAA has been going after the 51% violators, don't bet on that.

[troed@aon.at]

This, my friends from over the ocean, is VERY BAD news, ´cause our arguments here in Europe are always: "Look in the US, THEY know how to handle UL-sports (weight limits etc.)" Now we loose our best argument.

No way of lobbying ? No senator an UL-pilot in the flesh ?

Angelo

[All_In]

@Brett
That's bad news! Hope are long term relationship with the local FAA will help I'm actually going to just take the head to lunch and ask him how to use the rules to get to the same place, safety!

@Angelo
Never give up and never surrender! I just have begun this fight and still learning.

PS:
34+ years ago this same person got so fed up with us bending the rules while being a Piper dealer, We bent the rules by owning the 21 planes my brother an auto mechanic was maintaining without even an A&P rating! Yet loved my brothers work but hated it when my brother would tease him and say “well what could you do anyway “Mr FAA” take-a-way my pilot's or driver's license!!!
Finally, within 3-6 months, the FAA not an IA recommended him for his A&P rating and help him pass the test too without ever working for any other IA or aircraft experience other than piper factory training. This was the first and only time this has ever happen as far as I know! If there is a catch 22 I will find it!

[Xavier AVERSO]

Le xénon est une belle machine, les premiers construit en France avaient un mat rond.
The xenon is a beautiful machine, the first builds in France had a round mast.http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8008/img0684wi3.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0684wi3.jpg)

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/144/img0667qi0.th.jpg (http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0667qi0.jpg)

[Skyjinks]

"the introduction of the 3-seater Gyroplane Xenon XL. Nobody saw that coming. Raphael Celier introduced his latest development to the ecstatic public and impressed with astonishing flight maneauvers. The Gyroplane is constructed the same way as the Xenon 2 but with a larger rotor and a 140 HP Rotax engine."

Nice marketing guys!! BUT I'd be more ecstatic with 160HP on a machine of this size and two girls in the back!!

[All_In]

I discovered more about how FW are being built!
The Catch 22!
I called our friend and ask how they get away with building so many FW experimental aircraft each year? He said we stared with the truth and we are still using it, sort of.
Here is what happened for them. Robbie and IA with his own small repair shop wanted to build a composite experimental aircraft and started building it for himself.
When it was 80% complete a customer offered to buy it for way too much money once finished. So he had to build himself another one. This kept happening until he closed the repair side of the shop and started building two. Finishing the one he just sold and stared another one for himself. He has 3 aircraft of his own now, but he must want more? Because they are working on 4 more today, and I think they are sold. So if he really wants another one he will have to build it!

PS:
It takes a lot more time to build most FW aircraft than gyros so then most planes they have ever registered in one year was only five planes and usually only one or two finish in the same year. This would be more of a problem for open frame gyro as they are much cheaper and easier to build. The volume may be a problem but I have the beginning of an idea for a business structure where employees become sub-contractors and rent space and only pay for it after they finish the build, unless it sells before they finish it and have to start another one for themselves!

[Xenon-designer]

Good morning to all,

News are spreading fast !
Yes we kept secret the development and test of the Xenon XL... it was necessary as too many spys would have spread the news before we could be certain it was flying perfect.
A brochure is available to download from our website, news corner, www.celieraviation.eu
This machine is available now or fully assembled depending country regulation, or in 49% complete kit in experimental category. Yes maybe one day we shall have a commercial certification, in Europe they ask 3 million Euros for that... So lets start with experimental category, have as many as possible flying, to generate professional interest and justify certification.
The machine is of course available as a super 2 seater with extra room to fullfill your imagination.
We once more, proove that it is not necessary to use heavy, greedy, overpowerfull engine to do the correct job...Just keep the machine light and efficient. Those days the fuel is getting really high priced, it is then necessary to make more efficient machines. I and my passengers were delighted to look at the fuel flow on cruise showing an average of 3 gal/h...three people on board ! Our RST Rotax Super Turbo is tuned at 135 hp precisely, it is plenty enough power with our large rotor.
We are now ready to take orders for this new Xenon XL.

We had the pleasure last week to invite our distributors and representatives for a week time, sharing experiences, infos, upgrades...and the so awaited presentation of the Xenon XL. At first glance when we removed the cover, they did not see what was really new, until they approch the machine, i saw all of them getting exited and with kid faces discovering the Chrismas gifts... The next day all where invite to fly with me, which we did non stop all day ! Making a professional photo and video shooting. Soon the movie will be released on our website and Youtube.
I would like to again thanks deeply all our visitors, and especially the american team with Mike Charlene Josh Bantum and Randy Berry. I think they enjoyed their visit at the factory as they when through the technical training, they could see our team working, see the quality of construction, our methodology. They also had the possibility to visit our south big famous city of Krakow...
I want here again, to thanks all our supporters, some do great job with beautifull photos and videos, thanks to share that to all. Keep doing it.

Photo session of XL soon available.

I am proud to have been able to demonstrate that things that seems impossible can become possible. A dream is born.

Greetings to all.

[Xenon-designer]

Here some Xenon XL photos

http://www.benjamin-celier.com/celier-aviation-web/index.html

[PTKay]

Here some Xenon XL photos

http://www.benjamin-celier.com/celier-aviation-web/index.html

Excellent photography.

Congratulations to the successful event.

Is this your brother, who did the session?

His whole page is excellent.

Congratulations also for him. :)

[troed@aon.at]

Hi Raphael !

Excellent job !

What stuns me most is that You offer the XL also as a Super-2-seater !

Maybe You didn´t realize what THAT means to the XENON - story: most gyro-pilots in good ol´Europe are used to the tandem-config, having the stick between their legs (NO double meaning !). With this config they just jump into the XENON and fly it like their used tandems. Makes it easier to keep the skid-ball in the middle .....

CU soon

Angelo

[Xenon-designer]

Yes, this is also the goal to match as many pilots confiration as possible, it is a single seat with amazing room, a double and a triple !!! I dont know what better to do...well who knows...
Yes Paul, it is my brother taking the photos, he is a very well know professional.
kindly,

[PTKay]

Yes Paul, it is my brother taking the photos, he is a very well know professional.
kindly,

So you seem to be a very talented family, also artistically.
So no wonder, that Xenon is not only well designed technically,
but also very good looking and well designed from the aesthetic point of view.
And if Clement is also your brother, (linked from the Benjamin page)
then you have also a computer guru in the family.

Such a team of "Celier Bros" should be unbeatable.

;)

[Xenon-designer]

you got it Paul, and yes we do collaborate in the smart way. And we are lucky to be a loving familly, the education was good.
Thanks for your support. You are invited to fly with me the Xenon XL.

[PTKay]

And we are lucky to be a loving family, the education was good.

Once again congratulations.
I am, unfortunately, a single child, so I envy everybody with such talented siblings.


Thanks for your support. You are invited to fly with me the Xenon XL.

Thank you. I still remember our first "ad hoc" flight when you were adjusting oil coller on the first white Xenon.
The pictures from this fligh were the first Xenon pictures on this forum.

I will call you before the weekend.

When you visit Modlin you probably noticed that my Rallye is still grounded.
I have a real itch for flying, so your generous offer is coming right on time.

;)

[troed@aon.at]

Hi Raphael !

Pic-Show of Your brother is fantastic, congrats.

What I am missing is a photo of the cockpit ´cause I would like to know where You placed the prerot and the throttle.

Can You post a pic directly in this forum ?

I´ll try to call You this afternoon.

Angelo

[Xavier AVERSO]

Raphael, le Xenon XL est très beau mais tu devrais recontroler la consommation qui est particulierement basse..!!

Raphael, Xenon XL is very beautiful but you would owe recontroler the consumption which is particularly low.!!

[troed@aon.at]

Hi Xavier !

Your "Stella" blades would beautifully fit to the XENON, I enjoyed them on the DF02/Gyrotec :whoo:

Angelo

[quadrirotor]

The last evolution of the Xenon!!! :D

http://celieraviation.eu/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/xewing-brochure.pdf

[t-bird]

My only concern is the quoted airspeed.

With an aerodynamic gyro like this I would expect it to out perform the high drag ones (Magni, ELa’s and MTO-03)

The Ela and Magni at MAUW and at 29 inches of manifold pressures cruise comfortable at 90 MPH.

The new rotor on the ELA with a higher coning angle even at a higher speed.

I am no expert but I would say that the rotor has to be redesign.

I have done a flight along the ocean with an ELA flying at 98 MPH one up 30 inches of manifold pressures.

Later in the day I was struggling to get 80 MPH at 33 inches of manifold pressures.

After landing I inspected the rotors and they had accumulated a brown layer of dirt.

After washing the rotor I continued at 92 Mph at 29 inches.

My point is that if a thin layer of dirt could have such a huge effect on speed how much more the rotor design.

[FliteTyger]

Yes, this is also the goal to match as many pilots confiration as possible, it is a single seat with amazing room, a double and a triple !!!

Whoa, wait a sec, am I reading this correctly - The Xenon XL will be reconfigurable between 1, 2, or 3 passengers? Is this a permanent modification selected when assembling the kit, or is this adjustable at the hanger, like reorganizing the removable seats in a minivan?

If yes, then I'm thrilled and heartbroken at the same time - the gyro of my dreams, but way way out of my current price range :(

Isn't that always the case though? :D

[Xenon-designer]

Bonjour Xavier, Angelo,

la consommation est correcte, je dispose d'un fuel flow, et je tourne en croisiere éco 4600 tours avec 3 x 85 kg a bord plus 15 kg essence...le moteur est tout particulierement preparé... of course. Beaucoup n'y croyait pas jusqu'a ce qu'il essaient eux meme. Si tu passe a Varsovie je te reçois avec plaisir. Une limousine viendra te chercher a l'aéroport.
The fuel consumption is correct as i have fuel flow plus checking my refuelings, that is because i can cruise super economic at 4600 RPM with 3 passengers 85 kg plus 15 kg of fuel.
Yes the XeWing is already under construction. I see news are going fast. We want to put on the market an economic aircraft (49 000 euros) a true STOL that will outpass all other ones. I like challenges... Should be available in about 5 months.

About the XL for Mister FliteTyger, yes it is like a minivan, the back seats are immediately removeable for any other configuration from cargo / medical / agri spraying / patroling...endless uses. Sorry i don't know how to make those great machines cheap enough...
I even have under preparation an amazing Xenon Executive, full carbon kevlar, titanium, integral cabin leather, air conditioning, huge all integrated glass cockpit, auto pilot...and more at 150 000 euros...a special limited serie for those who want more that the gyro...like when you buy a Bugatti, a Brabus / AMG...luxury without limits... Still remember we have our Xenon 2 at 49 000 Euros, it flies really great with the same look (from far) as the one at 150 000 Euros...

[Xenon-designer]

About rotors and speeds, i would like to remind all of us, that like helicopters our rotors are very sensitive to pressure / altitude. Our flight manual integrates a great chart to instantly calculate the real loss or gain in performances. Also the way a machine, a propeller, an engine tune up is prepared can really change a lot the performances.
Yes the Xenon has suberb aerodynamics, but was not designed for high speeds, but first for easy control, extreme confort, playing at too high speeds with gyros will get you too close to limits, mainly in harsh conditions that gyro pilot use to get use to and forget about the basics of rotor dynamics and safety margins...
If i want to fly fast i buy an good aircraft, we are happy with 130 / 150 km/h, (i personnally pushed the RST to 200 km/h) as the Xenon is a must in bad conditions, low time pilots, big cross wind, super forgiving...those machines mentionned by "T Bird" have unfortunatelly bad record in flip over on the ground, bad CG too much conical angle, too heavy rotors...with the bad inertia, resulting in too many accidents...
But here no need to critisize other, all what is important under my eyes is to keep the safety at the best, the rest is only about commercial and tastes.

I will soon publish a full retrospection on the Xenon versus other machines, with detailed stress analysys, material proof certification and the comparision between the US AN bolts versus Europeans models, wich seems to make from time to time lots of talks. This will be downloadable from our website www.celieraviation.eu
The best to all the gyro pilots.

[FliteTyger]

Raphael,

Thanks for your quick response! That is great news for a lot of potential gyro owners. I certainly don't fault you for the cost - a high quality machine always commands a premium. In fact, my complaints are not aimed at your pricing at all, it's more towards the current exchange rate of USD to EUR. That one you can't help :)

Colby

[Resasi]

Raphael, if I understand correctly the XL is configurable as a three, two or one seater but would I be correct in assuming it will only be possible to have one set of controls?

In which case anybody building the XL kit of his own would not be able to use it to train on but would have to use a dedicated two seater with dual controls.

Pretty exciting news about the two centers in the US for owner builders to do the 51%. This really is a dream that appears to be coming true and quite quickly too.

Having watched the Carter 2 seater dream slow right down I am getting really quite enthused about this one which is here now, and flying.

Is there any scope for higher pre-rotation and shortening of take-off distance.

Finally it is of course wishful thinking, but just imagine if one could take your XL and after a bit of work in the hanger take the rotors off and place the wing on and have the Xe winged version.

[Learjet]

T-Bird wrote With an aerodynamic gyro like this I would expect it to out perform the high drag ones (Magni, ELa’s and MTO-03)


Xenon Designer wrote those machines mentionned by "T Bird" have unfortunatelly bad record in flip over on the ground, bad CG too much conical angle, too heavy rotors...with the bad inertia, resulting in too many accidents...


Raphael... what are you smoking??? :smokin:

The Xenon's accident slate is not exactly squeaky clean... and frankly the Xenon is still in diapers when it comes to having any kind of meaningful safety track record. When you've produced more than 500 Xenons and racked up tens of thousands of incident free flying hours to boast of - then by all means start sprouting forth about accident statistics and make all the comparisons you want against the likes of Magni, Ela etc. :) But right now "those machines" have safety records Xenon can only dream of! The Xenon looks like a great gyro - please let it earn its reputation as such without resorting to "cheap shots" and unsubstantiated comments. You're not doing yourself or the Xenon any favours by lowering yourself to that level sales talk. :)

[RotorTom]

I agree that Xenon is in its infancy ... but I am not aware of any serious accidents. I know of one early model in Nevada but this was a first generation machine that did not resemble the current machines.

And most of the other "incidents" like doors flying off, a rotor chopping off a tail and a forced landing have not been the Xenon's fault.

BTW ... if there was a serious accident I don;t know about, I'll stand corrected ... so please give details?

[PTKay]

... a rotor chopping off a tail ...

Tom.

Could you, please, elaborate on this?
There is always something to learn,
especially, what we should avoid.

[PTKay]

When you've produced more than 500 Xenons and racked up tens of thousands of incident free flying hours to boast of - then by all means start sprouting forth about accident statistics and make all the comparisons you want against the likes of Magni, Ela etc.

David, cool down a little, you are doing also no favour to Magni with such posts...

Where do you have these 500 Ela gyros with "tens of thousands of incident free flying hours" ????

Maybe Magni has it.

But Xenon has also produced already 70 units without a single one flipping over,
while I have heard about at least 5 Ela cases. The same for MT-03.

There was not single incident on accident with Xenon with any injury. !!!
Can you claim it for Magni, Ela or MT-03.

It's from your own backyard (as an example):
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1003551

So take it easy.
I know you are worried about a new competitor on the South African market,
but just take it easy.

[Learjet]

:)David, cool down a little, you are doing also no favour to Magni with such posts...


PTkay - fair call! My jets are cooled! :D

Where do you have these 500 Ela gyros with "tens of thousands of incident free flying hours" ????

Maybe Magni has it.


yep I was referring to Magni

But Xenon has also produced already 70 units without a single one flipping over,
while I have heard about at least 5 Ela cases. The same for MT-03.

There was not single incident on accident with Xenon with any injury. !!!
Can you claim it for Magni, Ela or MT-03.


Nope - nor am I trying to. The point I was trying to make is to question why Raphael feels the need to trash other gyros in order to sell the Xenon?

know you are worried about a new competitor on the South African market,
but just take it easy.

Not at all. I have no business interest in Magni or any other make of gyro whatsoever. As I stated, I think the Xenon looks to be a great gyro - so much so that I would definately consider buying one once it's clocked up a credible track record of flying hours on the Hobbs!
The more stable gyros (irrespective of make) available on the market, the better for us as pilots and indeed the entire gyro flying community and industry as a whole.
What the gyro industry doesn't need is manufacturers taking cheap shots at each other in order to try and sell their product. Especially when making inferences about lack of safety etc. This is something that we as a gyro community already suffer from within the aviation industry as a whole with rampant mis-perceptions about gyro safety etc. Surely we don't need the manufacturers adding to this for their own selfish purposes when the majority of us here are trying our damndest to improve the general misperceptions about gyro safety?

[PTKay]

:)

I have no business interest

Sorry, my mistake.

Surely we don't need the manufacturers adding to this for their own selfish purposes...

I cannot agree more. I hope it was not Raphaels intention, just stating
design differences between his low CG wide footprint constructions and others...

But again, you are completely right.

We should talk about advantages of our own design,
less about other's flaws, at least as long as public safety is not comprised...

[troed@aon.at]

Hi everybody !

Lemme give You some facts:

In 2004/2005 ´bout 40 MT03 were built and ´till 2008 they were exact geometrical copies of the ELA. 20 flipped during T/O or after landing due to wrong teaching w/o casualties except some blue spots, 3 had accs in flight and had to stay some weeks in the Intensive Care Unit, 2 died. Officially: all accs were pilot errors.

2004 a Magni M16 crashed during an airshow in Germany. Cause: Zero G

Why do Gyros in general have such a bad image ? ´Cause a lotta things happened with homebuilt machines.

I can´t hear this LTL - HTL - CLT blahblahblah anymore´, that´s b...sh.. If a gyro is constructed correctly it will fly safe no matter where the thrustline is. You can build a LTL-gyro in a way that it will crash immediately.

For the XENON: I KNOW that the XENON is superior in safety. A guy that smashed his MT03 4 weeks ago now flies a XENON and last weekend we had bad sidewinds. When he did his landing and would have been in a MT03/ELA he would now have some time to think about landing in the hospital instead the XENON forgave the pilot error and made a solid touch down.....

So let´s talk more about: how safe is a pilot for the gyro instead vice-versa.

The XENON is a superb gyro and Raphael does his best to cure the "children sicknesses" as well as Magni, ELA and whatsoever are good machines and fly safe and have THEIR little problems.

The rest of the discussion is useless like talking ´bout religion.

Angelo

[birdy]

And most of the other "incidents" like doors flying off, a rotor chopping off a tail and a forced landing have not been the Xenon's fault.
Yup, i dont matter how safe and docile you make any machine, some humans will still find a way of hurting themselves init.

[RotorTom]

Tom.

Could you, please, elaborate on this?
There is always something to learn,
especially, what we should avoid.

Someone simply got into trouble when he was delayed in his clearance for takeoff, then suddenly cleared for immediate takeoff. His rotorspeed had deteriorated and he started his ground roll anyway causing a violent blade flap. Names withheld to protect the innocent.

[BigBen]

Raphael (or anyone else who can accurately answer),
What is the design difference between the Xenon and the other gyros that makes it more resistant to rollover in or near the ground?

[PTKay]

Raphael (or anyone else who can accurately answer),
What is the design difference between the Xenon and the other gyros that makes it more resistant to rollover in or near the ground?

It's simple (AFAIK):

- wider wheel span
- lower CG
- lighter rotor



:)

[PTKay]

Someone simply got into trouble when he was delayed in his clearance for takeoff, then suddenly cleared for immediate takeoff. His rotorspeed had deteriorated and he started his ground roll anyway causing a violent blade flap.

Tom, thanks.

Situation to be avoided.

[Xavier AVERSO]

PTKay:
Voie plus large: d'accord.
CG plus bas ..!!!!
Rotor léger: FAUX ( MT03/XENON rotors identiques en poids )

PTKay:
Wider wheel span: OK
Lower CG.!!!!
FALSE: light rotor (identical MT03/XENON rotors in weight )

[scandtours]

Professor Victor Shumeiko from Moscow Russia, desighed a three seat
gyroplane for some years ago, the Hunter3. Ive met Shumeiko at Alexs place last year.
Maybe our friend Alex can now post more info.
Giorgos

[ventana7]

Re the rotor flap incident.
No need to protect the innocent -- or in this case guilty.

It was beyond pilot error- more like pilot stupidity.

I was on the runway and had a minor pre-rotator problem and was not up to normal pre-rotation speed (I had not put baby powder on the belt as we do when the machines are new). I should have taxied off and taken care of it. But I was stuuuuupid and did not do that.

I was under pressure from aircraft behind me and two in the pattern and got rushed and thought maybe I could take-off by just taxiing a long way to build rotor speed. I simply pulled the stick back to far too fast and flapped the blades into the tail.

I would have posted something here if I thought anyone would learn from my mistake but this is such a stupid mistake that most of us learn not to do that in the first few hours of instruction.-- end of story.

As far as the Xenon --it is really a safe machine and there is no doubt its low center of gravity and 7.5' wheelbase give it lots of ground stability making rollovers less likely than in other gyros that have higher centers or closer wheels.

Rob

[Hognose]

Interesting thread. Thanks particularly to Raphael (and all the "Frères Celier").

Rob, are you still the Xenon importer?

The XL brochure comes up with gibberish font on my computer, which may be my computer's fault (I'm typing this on a server console).

I believe, as David Lehr said, the more safe machines the better for all. I have to respectfully disagree with Angelo -- both the theoretical calculations, and years of experimental results, say that design for longitudinal stability, by keeping the thrustline close to the center of mass, saves lives. Jean Fourcade explained it for the layman, Dr Houston proved it in the wind tunnel and on an instrumented gyro, and people who choose not to believe it continue to meet premature ends.

As far as rollovers are concerned, Ladislao Pazmany's book on landing gear design explains it in detail, as far as airplanes are concerned. In airplanes, it's simple triangulation. Paz keeps the arithmetic clean for the math-challenged. The principal difference in gyroplanes is that they have a lot of energy in the form of rotor inertia, which is quick to reinforce any overturn that gets started. The rotor also acts as a gyroscope and more than one gyro has gone over on the taxiway thanks to precession.

cheers

-=K=-

[Gyro_Kai]

I believe, as David Lehr said, the more safe machines the better for all. I have to respectfully disagree with Angelo -- both the theoretical calculations, and years of experimental results, say that design for longitudinal stability, by keeping the thrustline close to the center of mass, saves lives. Jean Fourcade explained it for the layman, Dr Houston proved it in the wind tunnel and on an instrumented gyro, and people who choose not to believe it continue to meet premature ends.


Hello,

let me jump in for Angelo here. The CTL is of course indisputable, but that alone does not make a safe gyro. I still believe it takes a lot of work besides that to make it safe, the visible like broad wheelbase for one, good suspension, crumbling zones in case of impact, strong build, high rudder and big enough HS with long leverage etc.

The prominent European models Magni and MT03/sport have a slightly low TL. But they counteract this very efficiently with long leverage on the rudder/HS arm and large HS. Therefore they make well constructed gyros even without CTL.

Kai.

[Hognose]

Hello,

let me jump in for Angelo here. The CTL is of course indisputable, but that alone does not make a safe gyro.

Yes, of course.

You can manage tail force by either size or moment arm. Make it bigger or give it more leverage, the machine gets the same force either way. I like the tall and broad tail because it has areas both embedded in the wash and clear of cabin turbulence.

The prominent European models Magni and MT03/sport have a slightly low TL. But they counteract this very efficiently with long leverage on the rudder/HS arm and large HS. Therefore they make well constructed gyros even without CTL.

Indeed, Kai and all, that is why the ASTM consensus standards are based on actual in-flight stability tests rather than an arbitrary thrustline standard. Stable is as stable does.

But the word "slightly" is important. The short moment arm of a slightly low or even slightly high thrustline is not the same thing as the 12"/30 cm moment arm of some gyroplane thrustlines. The lighter Magni and MT also reduce any overturning force by having less thrust than some competing lead sleds. The more thrust you have, the more it pays to be close to centerline thrust.

And the slightly low location of the thrustline of the Magni etc. means that the aircraft responds "appropriately" to power changes.

I don't mean to insult the various European machine inspired by the Magni (nor do I have anything against the Xenon, which is the first truly new concept in many years to reach the market). There are questions of straight physics, but these matters of science need to be engineered into a machine that then has to be marketed to the public. If you do the physics right, you will not put the public at unreasonable risk. There is no dogmatic answer about what thrustline offset is safe -- it changes, after all, with each change in the machine's loading -- but less is better.

cheers

-=K=-

[t-bird]

Hi Zenon designer

My question was “Why such a low airspeed?” and your answer was surrounding safety margins and Gyro’s flipping over , gyro’s flip over when landing thus landing speed, I am questioning the low cruising speed.

Quoted from Rapheal FALSE: light rotor (identical MT03/XENON rotors in weight )

AND THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM. CHANGE THE ROTOR SETUP TO SOMETHING SIMILAR TO MAGNI AND ELA AND YOU WILL GET HIGHER AIRSPEEDS.

MT03 rotors are light with a low inertia not something that I would like on a gyro with a MAUW of 600kg

I am from South Africa and we operate at 5500 feet on average and we easily fly 1500 km in two days.

The speed that is 10 mph lower than the other gyros and the climb out after take off is a serious factor.

I have talked to a Zenon owner and they are climbing out at 500 feet per minute in winter time at 5350 feet using 3 times the runway of the other Gyros’.

In summer this airfield temps will go up to 37 degrees with a density altitude of 8966 feet.

If safety is such a big concern of Zenon then rather increase the climb out rate and make the landings a bit more challenging than decreasing the cruise speed and climb out rate.

[RotorTom]

I have talked to a Zenon owner and they are climbing out at 500 feet per minute in winter time at 5350 feet using 3 times the runway of the other Gyros’.

You didn't talk to any owner I know ... and I know most of them (www.xenonowners.com).

I am at 5480 ft. with density altitudes at more than 7,000 ft. We can get off at 150 feet or less ... in cold or heat and climb at 500 to 1,000 fpm ... depending on the day.

[Resasi]

Since I also intend to fly in Africa between the coast and Nairobi or even further up-country, NBO 5,575' density alts of 7,000' + I too am interested in Xenon performance. As far as I can gather critical areas include rotor cleanliness, precise tuning of the engine and accuracy of the control rigging.

Speed is always an issue however I am prepared, after years of trying to get to destinations 'yesterday', the Lear was good for that, to go slower enjoy the scenery and smell the daisies. Besides it helps the environment and of course the wallet! But... climb out and runway distance is of great importance to a gyro.

I initially got sucked in by the Carter copter Butterfly demonstrator and concept of VTOL in a gyro( still very much in the pipeline) but still valued and appreciated the Magni performance out of Nairobi (Orly) where it was an impressively short TO with two big guys and a 25kt 90 degree crosswind, and almost zero roll landings.

The XL concept and closed cabin for the bush flying I would like to do is ideal, the performance of critical interest.

[lanichol]

You didn't talk to any owner I know ... and I know most of them (www.xenonowners.com).

I am at 5480 ft. with density altitudes at more than 7,000 ft. We can get off at 150 feet or less ... in cold or heat and climb at 500 to 1,000 fpm ... depending on the day.


What does Tom know. But the guy in the link below seems to closely investigate issues.

http://www.troubleshooter.com/AboutUs/TomBio.cfm

[Udi]

I don't see a reason for an argument here. If the other gyros t-bird is talking about are taking off in 50 ft in the same conditions that the Xenon is taking off in 150 ft than he is not lying. You wouldn't expect a 912 Xenon to take off faster than a 912 single place Dominator, would you? Takeoff distance is a function of thrust, weight, pre-rotation, rotor size, and technique. I would doubt very much claims that a 914 Magni weighing 800 lbs is taking off faster, or slower, than a 914 Xenon weighing 800 lbs. Gyros are gyros and differences in takeoff performance are not specific to brands, but to configurations. Gyro "A" can take off sooner and climb faster if he's got a larger rotor, for example. Gyro B can have a higher top speed if he's got a smaller rotor and/or if it aerodynamically cleaner. If a given 914 Xenon is a dog, it's not because it's "a Xenon", it's because something about this specific machine is not set up right.

t-bird - tell us more about the gyros that you are comparing. Weight, engine, rotor, pilot experience, etc. I would be very interested to know if you find any REAL performance difference in similarly equipped gyros.

[Resasi]

As with most comparisons it has to be apples to apples not apples to oranges.

Not until we begin getting comparisons with a single pilot comparing the different machines, and, as Udi has commented, with the various variable quantified, will we get meaningful figures.

[PTKay]

What does Tom know. But the guy in the link below seems to closely investigate issues.

http://www.troubleshooter.com/AboutUs/TomBio.cfm

With people like Tom (and Raphael) on board,
there is a chance to gradually move the gyro world
away from the image of a bunch of suicidal freaks,
into the mainstream of professional aviation.

The approach Tom has taken creating the users web page
and communicating directly with the manufacturer,
as well as Raphael promptly responding to such challenge
shall result in perfect, safe and respected product.

[ckurz7000]

As with most comparisons it has to be apples to apples not apples to oranges.

Not until we begin getting comparisons with a single pilot comparing the different machines, and, as Udi has commented, with the various variable quantified, will we get meaningful figures.

Hmmm...in the end the guy who is faced with a decision to buy either gyro "A" or gyro "B" is only interested if "A" or "B" gets him off the ground faster and climbing more steeply. He doesn't care about the reason behind it (larger rotor, higher powered engine, better aerodynamics, etc.). Only to the extent that those factors can be changed by him, i.e., is there are larger rotor available for gyro "A", can he opt for a more powerful engine, etc.

What the "apples and oranges" argument boils down to is ultimately accounting for all the differences between "A" and "B" and explaining them away. Taken to the ridiculous extreme, a Cessna 150 performs just as well as a LearJet if you account for the more powerful engine, the better aerodanymics, etc., etc. of the Lear.

When I want to decide on which fruit to eat I have to compare apples with oranges with bananas with strawberries with..... ;)

-- Chris.

[PTKay]

The approach Tom has taken creating the users web page
and communicating directly with the manufacturer,
as well as Raphael promptly responding to such challenge
shall result in perfect, safe and respected product.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Martino

Martino is known for his bold style. If he believes a businessperson is acting unethically, he does not hesitate to call that person a liar or a cheat on air. If he believes a business is failing to respond to his investigation, he sometimes broadcasts the business’s phone number and encourages listeners to contact the business.

If such a person buys a Xenon, it has some meaning.

:)

[troed@aon.at]

Well, Udi, YOU are fully right ! Here people compare apples with oranges or didn´t get the clue what we are speaking ´bout.

When comparing gyros of the UL-class obviously they have to perform all within a small bandwidth the same.

So when comparing gyro A with B it ALWAYS has to be stated: setup of the gyro (motor, rotor-diam, prop-pitch(!!), prop-make, T/O-weight, weather-conds (!!!))

Change the prop on the same gyro or even only the prop-pitch, it will result in different T/O-ways.

Compare gyro A with gyro A one time at 35°Centigrade, 85%humid and one time at 0°C and 35%humid T/O way will be shorter by half or more.

So when a newby wants to buy a gyro the seller will have to ask him:

Where are You going to T/O and TD regularly (average weather conds/APT alt).
What do You intend to do with the gyro (airport pattern vs. long-range travel)
What are the average weather conds in Your place

and then set up the gyro according to the customers needs (rotor-diam, prop-pitch etc.).

So, taken as example, a XENON flown in Denmark will NOT be comparable with the same XENON flown in SA.

A XENON piloted by a 160lb pilot will T/O faster than the same XENON piloted by a 220lb-pilot.

A XENON with clean blades (rotor AND prop) will T/O shorter than the same one with blades sticky with insects.

Since we are flying in the UL-class every lb counts. Once THIS is understood we can start talking ´bout specific type-issues. Wonder why Chris doesn´t get it, he posted a report in the German forum ´bout a trip when he had a lot of difficulties at T/O from the destination-APT compared to T/O from homebase simply of weather conds and APT-alt changed with his variable pitch propped MT03.

I myself experienced these changes gradually by myself: when I started with gyroing 2004 I had 260lbs, now I have 180lbs, and believe me THIS weight difference MAKES a difference in every single aspect of the performance.

Angelo

[troed@aon.at]

ONE VERY IMPORTANT POINT I FORGOT BUT IT IS SO OBVIOUS !

T/O distance will to a great extent depend also on HOW MANY rpms YOU PREROTATE !

So the question to the manuf will also be: what prerot-rpm does Your prerotator guarantee ?

Makes a big diff if You prerot 220 rpm or 280 rpm.

The XENON makes 270-280 for sure with the 8.4m-rotor..... tested it myself.

Angelo

[t-bird]

Per Xenon brochure

“Climb rate 800 ft a minute “– so I think that the 500 feet at 5350 feet is not to far off

I don’t know where you guys are getting 1000 feet a minute

The other Gyros I am referring to is the ELA ,Magni and MT03

It is interesting to note that MT03 are changing the rotor setup to increase the VNE so they are not happy with the rotor setup.

Speed in Africa is important. Runways are miles apart on long distance flights.
The difference between 90 mph and 74 mph of my last trip over 2 days and 1300 km would have been 2 hours. This is with no wind.
I have encountered a stiff headwind where I had a groundspeed of 65 mph. This means that I would have had problems reaching my destination before dark in a Xenon.

I think that the 3 seater is a great idea.
If you can cruise at 90 mph and have a better climb rate I will be first inline to buy one.

Rapheal claimed 200 km/h in the Xenon but at max Rpm 5800 the speed is 155 km/h (again per the brosure). Now did he put the gyro in a dive ??? In any of the other Gyro’s you would be able to reach 155 km/ - 96 mph at 5000 RPM 30 inches of manifold pressure.

[troed@aon.at]

XENON XL at max MTOW 600 kgs (according to brochure) with 8,8m-Rotor (!):

Performance :
(iso conditions, max T.O. weight)
Minimum speed: 65 km/h (40mph)
Cruise speed :
at 4600 rpm: 100km/h (62mph)
at 4800 rpm: 115km/h (71mph)
at 5000 rpm: 120 km/h (74mph)
Max speed :
at 5800 rpm: 155 km/h (96mph)
Fuel consumption :
at 4600 rpm: 10 l/h (2,6 gal/h)
at 4800 rpm: 13 l/h (3,4 gal/h)
at 5000 rpm: 15 l/h (4 gal/h)
Climb rate :
at 95km/h (59 mph) : 800ft/mn
Take-off distance: 100m (300ft)
Take-off speed: 80km/h (49 mph)
Landing distance: 10m (30ft)
Approach speed: 95km/h (59 mph)
Range up to 5 hours and 500 km (310 miles)

XENON 2 RST at max. MTOW 450 kgs with 8,4m-Rotor (!) :

min. Speed: 25 km/h
VTravel: 150 km/h
Vmax: 195 km/h

Now take a XENON XL with 135 hp and a 8,4m rotor and fly it at weight limit 450kgs (two-seated) You will fly very economically 400-450 miles at 150kph or more

Angelo

[t-bird]

quoted "
my new Xenon RT

It has been worth the wait! With xxx and I, climbed at 500fpm at 5200 RPM. The runway was at 4784 feet"
From another South African forum.

Stil no 1000 feet a minute as per claims on this forum

I am even more concerned about the 3 seater if the 2 seater was underperforming at altitude

I am sure if repost the brochure it will go faster :)

[Resasi]

Vansie your stirring. Footsak.:drum:

[lanichol]

Would this pass in the US as a two seater plus a storage space? Why not remove one seat?

[FliteTyger]

Would this pass in the US as a two seater plus a storage space? Why not remove one seat?

This was covered earlier in the thread, when I specifically asked if the seats could be rearranged "like a mini-van". The answer was yes, you can rearrange the seating on the fly as needed.

[Xenon-designer]

Hello,

As we now (the factory) take 2 weeks break, i want to thanks all the interest around the 3 seater Xenon XL. It will be only your imagination to see how to use this machine. A 2 or a 3 seat ?? What about flying at 2 plus your favorit pet / dog ? will it be considered as a passenger ?? :-)
About performance, the more the weight to cary the more the power we need. We demonstrated that with only 135 hp it was possible to fly confortable at 600 kg, 300 kg 3 pax on board. The price to pay is lower speed... To go faster ? more HP. More HP ? more weight... More weight ? more power to move metal only...
Gyros are not meant and designed to compet with airplanes.
Again all our mesurements are done at sea level in ISO conditions and are accurate.
For the machines flying in hotter, higher conditions we recommend first to calculate with the help of our very complete flight manual the corrected expected performances. Second, we have now available an engine upgrade kit to definitely improve performance for those conditions. Please contact the factory for more details.
As many people know now, we are developping the XeWing version> The brochure can be downloaded from our website. For those who love our cabin and ergonomics...with a wing. But this machine is out subject for the rotary forum.
The official Xenon XL movie will be released now in a few days. Hope you will enjoy it.
Salutations to all.

[troed@aon.at]

Have a nice vacation Raphael!

Angelo

[Resasi]

Have a great break and waiting with interest for details on when these kits will be available in the US.

[Xenon-designer]

I want to share with all of you our latest movie release :

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Xenon%2BXL/video/x655lm_xenonxl_tech

Enjoy it, forward it to others !

[PTKay]

Raphael,

excellent job, as usual...

Congratulations to Benjamin for the film and
to you and the whole Celier Aviation team for
the excellent machine.

Paul

[Gyro_Kai]

Great video indeed.

However, cross posting in several threads is not very good style.

Kai.

[Resasi]

Kai with respect, I think Raphael is simply trying to spread the news.

As it was news, the posting in News seems appropriate, posting here is appropriate for the thread, as it is in the Xenon thread.

Style doesn't enter into it. Having said that this is a two place thread, if we wish to split hairs

[Xenon-designer]

We want to share another success : we passed the German certification ! 15 month of hard work and lost of money put in. Tuff certification !
Ahhh..., if the FAA was a bit more open minded, they should understand that general european certifications (France-Germany-Norway-Finland-Sweeden...) are of very high level, they would good machines ELA / MAGNI / XENON... get the LSA again.

[Gyro_Kai]

YES, YES, YES!
Congratulations, Raphael.

I was following the process closely myself and on behalf of a friend who hopes to sit in his own cockpit in a couple of weeks. It was quite a long time, after passing the final test (noise emission), now finally it is done. The approval for Germany will also enable the legal flying in Austria, in case the previous Hungarian approval should really be in doubt as some have indicated.

I foresee a great future in Germany and Austria for the Xenon. Although the open frame flying has its appeal, we don't always have the weather and temperature here.

Can't wait to lay my hand on a Xenon, possibly already on the 2-3rd of August in Gelnhousen.

Kai.

[Mistral]

For all interested, check out the XL brochure (http://http://celieraviation.eu/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/xl-brochure.pdf) on Celier's EU web site (http://http://celieraviation.eu/).

Kit price: €65,000 (at today's rate $101,965)

[Resasi]

Judging by the number of hits on this posting there is certainly a lot of interest.