Dominator vs. Monarch

[Viper22]

Just some questions:
1. If you had the choice of building a basic Single place Dominator or building the Monarch kit - which would it be and why?
2. Understanding these are different machines but also similiar - for someone new to the gyro scene - which machine and why?
3. What type of 2-place would you get training in to transition to these machines in the midwest area?

Thanks for all inputs.
Viper22
Phil

[Rando]

If you are really handy and like building something yourself, get the plans and build a Dominator. If you want a bolt together kit, get a Monarch.

The Dominator design is a proven gyro that has been around for years. The Monarch is a fairly new design but a very well thought out design.

Any training is better than no training so find someone close to you that is qualified. I would try and get training with Ernie in the 2 place Dominator if you go with his design. It also appears that Larry Neal will soon have a 2 place Monarch to train in.

[GyroRon]

I would choose a Dominator for two main reasons. 1. is the dominator uses a much stronger Pre rotator. 2. the dominator uses a tall tail. Other than that it comes down to two good machines and who do you want to do business with.

[Heron]

Ron . . .go do your home work man!
I love both machines, the fly gracefully and perform alike.
You can talk to Matt Pearson about the electric pre-rotator, he has one and he is happy.
Differences are on the frame construction and posterior repairs if necessary, plus The MOnarch will have add-ons that I haven't seen in Dominators yet.
I would buy a MOnarch today, if nothing else, for the G-Force Landing Gear!
It will take some effort to damage a Monarch . . .
Heron

[rwr]

I would go for the Dominator, since the Monarch still has an empennage that is a decade out of date.

Also, I wouldn't discount the toughness of the Dominator gear. Those truck air shocks and all that suspension travel saved my bacon more than a few times. From an engineering standpoint, the Dominator gear is probably a much better tradeoff for toughness versus weight.

The electric prerotater is curious too. With that gear, all those tubes, a big battery, a car starter motor, non-Dragonwing rotors (heavy), and a 582 with that cooling system/intake muffler/extra exhaust muffler, it sure seems like quite a stretch for the Monarch folks to claim a weight of 340lbs!!

Spend several thousand less, and get a Dominator. For the same horsepower, the lighter weight and more efficient rotors will get noticeably better performance.

[GyroRon]

The electric pre rotator is only going to get you maybe 130 RRPM max. A good hydro or Flex shaft pre rotator on a Dominator is going to get you at least 200 RRPM and I saw 260 on the flex shaft dominator I flew at Bensen Days. This extra speed over the electric pre rotator means takeoff rolls are about half as long with a dominator. I have landed mine and flown off of a 300 foot grass model airplane runway. I don;t think it is possible to do that with a electric starter pre rotator.

I like the G force landing gear alot. But the rest of the machine is nothing special. The dominator is cheaper too and comes with MUCH better blades standard as well

[MattPearson]

Ron, the electric prerotator spins the 23 ft Dragon Wings to 180 RPM EVERY time with the push of the soft start button, and that's stick forward, no wind RPM. Including the battery, it's also less weight than the Wunderlich system that I had on my gyro. What better blades could there be than Dragon Wings (which are standard) ? The entire radiator system weighs 4 pounds. Not sure what about the tail is a decade out of date. It's a true airfoil shaped, all flying, Kevlar tail centered in the prop blast, and it makes for some serious exciting flying. It absolutely weighs 340 lbs including the instruments. I have seen it with my own eyes. Why make something up?

[Heron]

Oh brother . . .
Wake the hell up!
The Monarch kit includes DW's you fool!
The Kb blades are for the Butterfly pre-rotatorless for evident needs!
The eletric p-r gives 200 rpm and The Monarch takes off in 7 seconds no wind.
The shortest t/o was 25 feet wind strong.
I am going to have a heart attack on you! Do you home work before mickjagging you lips.
WE put one frame together in two days for tests.
God have mercy!
Heron

[GyroRon]

I would love to see 180 out of a electric pre rotator. I have dealt with many gyros with electric starter pre rotators and not a one of them got over 120 without holding the button down and rolling forwards to assist the starter. Maybe Larry has supercharged the motors he is using or something?

It was my understanding that the Monarch and Butterfly both use Rotorhawks. Am I wrong?

The radiator system is sweet, that is standard issue Rotax stuff. It is good till you see how much it costs!!! Once you see the price for those little Rotax radiators you understand why we are using a VW car radiator.

Heron, I know you got to be kidding right? You don't even fly gyroplanes, you don't own a gyroplane, you aren't a member of any of the gyroplane clubs or Organizations... What do you do? You tried to work out a deal with Ernie to make Dominators in Brazil or something and that didn't work out, but yet dominators were still one of the best gyros you could buy according to some of your older posts. Now you go into somekind of partnership deal with Larry and now the Butterfly and Monarch is hands down the best gyro known to mankind??? you keep telling us that soon a cheap gyro is just around the corner. I think just tonight you mentioned it would be less than 7 grand. Well then Why don't you have one for yourself yet?

I am not discounting Larrys gyros. He has some neat innovative features on the Butterflys and Monarchs. they appear to be very nice machines. I hope they sell well for Larry and suspect he Will sell plenty of them. I still believe the Dominator is more gyro and more bang for the buck than the Monarch or Butterfly. For what a Basic Butterfly costs with a pump stick, low performance blades, no pre rotator and a short tail - and you still got to build it - you can buy a Assembled, Painted, and test flown Dominator with instruments, high Performance blades, Pre rotator, suspension, tall tail, etc... Who can't see THAT advantage?

[rfonseca]

Heron does not fly gyros???? :( :confused:

[MattPearson]

I must say, I can understand the confusion. If you look at Larry's website which is totally out of date, the pictures are not accurate. The tail shown is an old Air Command tail and the blades are his Brock blades.
I guess he has not had time to get any updated pictures to his web master. He also doesn't specify Dragon Wing blades.

Here is a picture of the ship as you would receive it with the optional Carter Smart Strut

http://webpages.charter.net/wartowne/DSCF0006.JPG
http://webpages.charter.net/wartowne/DSCF0007.JPG

[rwr]

If he cares so little about his product that he doesn't have 10 minutes to spare to show a correct version of his product, what DOES he care about?

The tail section, as it is, may be centered as much as possible, but it still only has the yaw surfaces in the lower half of the flow from the prop. Maybe when the design gets caught up to this millenium, it will have some version of a tall tail, with its structural advantages, the minimization of yaw/roll inputs with changes in power, and the increased effectiveness during low thrust (maybe even engine out) situations. The current set up will have greatly reduced yaw authority in the latter stages of an engine-out event.

It is hard to tell, but it seems like the HS is fairly small as well.

It costs very little more to build a powerful empennage,.. why go with a 1980's design?

A 582, the way it is installed, has very little advantage over a 503. The motor is heavier. The intake system is heavier with that muffler. The exhaust system is heavier with that extra muffler. The radiator dirties up and heats up the airflow to the prop. With the added weight, the loss of horsepower from muffling, and the lower prop efficiency, the 582 serves little purpose other than increasing the maintenance and expense over a 503. It will be quieter, though.

I have trouble understanding how a car starter motor, a battery large enough to power it, and the cabling heavy enough to carry that power will weigh less than a few feet of steel cable and a rubber wheel.

Mind you, I'm not against the Monarch. It is always nice to have new machines available, especially those with nearly CLT. It's just curious as to why someone would have so many lessons learned available, and still use some antiquated design features.

[GyroRon]

Bob having flown both a Dominator with a 582 and a 503 - the 582 version was loaded, and the 503 was very basic and much lighter - the 582 does make a difference. In cruise mode the 503 vesion needed 6000 rpm to do the job, the 582 version can fly at 5500 doing the same speed. I know 500 rpm isn't much, but it does make a difference.

I do see your point about the intake silencer and aftermuffler cutting the power down some, and it does take it down about 3-5 HP.

Matt I just don't like that tail. Not only cause it is short, but because all the forces on that tail get channeled to the airframe through just one bolt that the whole thing hinges on. With the vibration a gyro will have in flight, this tail with no upper brace like on a tall tail will slowly start to wear down that bolt and the tail will end up all loose and floppy over time, which in turn feeds the vibrations and makes matters worse. If he used the same exact tail but just extended it a few fett higher and braced it from the top - like on the Golden Butterfly - I would like it alot.

[MattPearson]

I can certainly appreciate what you guys are saying. I will go ahead and throw out my opinion here as to how the Monarch flys. I have flown it for several hours in all different scenerios of wind, power on and off and there was never any lack of yaw power. I've landed and taken off upwind, downwind, dropped it in from as high as 30 feet with a 8 knt cross wind and nothing ever made me uncomfortable. I prefer the flying characteristics of it compared to my Super Fly for one reason. NIMBLENESS. A tall tail ship will never be as nimble as the little gyros with short masts and all flying tails (single mounting point). Our tall tail ships have their own benefits which I completely appreciate. I guess it's a matter of opinion as this entire thread supports.
I do get a little frustrated when ABSOLUTE type comments are made about how this aircraft performs or can't possibly perform, how it can't possibly weigh what it weighs, or that it's some kind of bucket of bolts waiting to self-destruct i.e. the landing gear and tail
I think at least some benefit of a doubt should be given until you either at least get to see it and/or fly it for yourself. It is definitely sweet as gyro flying goes.
By the way, the Monarch as in the pictures I posted, has a thrustline two inches below the VCG with a 200 lbs pilot.

[Heron]

Now you are turning rotweiler on me Ron? And did not do home work again?
I am a member of two clubs, in default with Sunstate 'coz did not send my fee.
I do not fly gyros yet, I like Dominators a lot, love Ernie and his family, will never say one word against is products that are great.
The comparison MOnarch X Dominator should be only to enlight peolple trying to buy something on that category.
You get the facts straight and then you post your comments, maybe I will send you a donation for the PRA so you can let me speak in this OPEN forum.
There are differences between those machines, you can not tell wich is better, just which potential customer fits better one of them, or you believe that Ernie will be out of business because of Larry? Not a chance.
Understand once and for all that are two models available and the tests and specs are available on both of them, those videos speak lots about what the Monarch can do.
Why don't I have a gyro? I did, sold it to form Gyrowave and today I still have to go out to make a buck if I want to eat.
Many days I had to opt for gas or food, but I have my hands so close to grab something that I will be able to share and help all of us in a good manner.
Dream are maintained by hope and I have lots of it.
Told you one day "if you come to Texas and are not impressed, I will reinburse you expenses" remember? You did not take it . . .
Larry is working in a frantic pace to put together all of its new inventions and products, there is a long . . .long . . .ramp up and he could use lots of help and incentive.
The fact I did not work with Ernie could be due to two things: my presentation was not good enough or we was burned out with the China deal, that was the motive for my aproach to him. He could profit immensily from my work and I will give him another try as soon as I can.
So has you see I became a gyro person full time and full speed (as far as money allows me to) and I hope to get going soon with many good stuff for all.
You are taking this discussion to another level and no one will profit from it.
Get you facts straight and stop been so highschoolish!
You know I love you. dont you?
Heron

[GyroRon]

You started it Heron!

[Heron]

. . .And I hope we are finished been foolish and can talk MOnarch X Dominator in a way our coleagues are going to profit from it!
Ball on your court!
Heron

[Ralph]

This thread is starting to verge on the silly. The Monarch is a new design with virtually no track record. It may fly very well and it may develop a strong pilot base. It will certainly have teething problems as examples get into the field. No matter what anyone says, the tail section mounting will be one of those teething problems!

No matter how well it may ultimately turn out, there is absolutely no way, short of sheer speculation, to compare it with a proven design like the Dominator, which happens to have a long and enviable track record. The Monarch boosters may be on to something but, if so, come back in a few years and restart the thread when there is something solid to argue about.

Ralph

[Heron]

Agree in part.
There are lots of new stuff to be seen and speculate about.
After been bangged around the frame still in one pice and you can count more than 70 times by now.
Looking for week spots so far only one and it is very easy to fix.
There are good and bad differences between the two machines and we are talking top of the line machines here, nothing else compares.
Dominators rock, MOnarchs rock and roll!
Heron

[rwr]

Tall tails make a gyrocopter less nimble?

Yeah, right.

Let's see,....

Your "theory" then goes as follows: Smaller yaw surfaces make a gyro more nimble.

Building on your theory, here is another: A gyro built with a rudder the size of a cookie tin will be VERY nimble.

Yet another improvement on THAT theory: A gyro with no yaw surfaces at all will be so responsive it could spin around fast enough to be its own prerotater.

[Chuck Irby]

Good analagy, Bob!

[birdy]

Heh heh,this lurk'n is amusing. :D :D

[mceagle]

Enjoying lurking too Birdy. There are just as many poorly conceived and inaccurate comments here as there are good ones (if not more). Surely some are just winding us up trying to draw out comments.

[Chuck Irby]

You guys down under are something else. :D

This forum wouldn't be the same without you.

Come on, comment.

[Chuck Irby]

Heron, you sound just a little prejudiced. What was it you were doing in Texas again? Have you spent the same amount of time in Ernie's camp? :D

[Heron]

I was learning how to make parts, participating on the creation of The Golden, mostly watching Larry's work, getting closer to a new friend, hands on experience on manufacturing, all aspects of the entire process and so on . . ..
No I visited Ernie twice with a friend from Brazil, five times champiom Formula builder, first brasilian to race in Europe, mentor of Fittipaldi (twice Formula 1 champ) and Nelson Piket (3 times).
I could not make Ernie see what I can do as far as research and contacts, but I will try again, Ernie and Dominators are great. It makes no sense to me replicate a gyro (which I can do) and than call it what? Souzanator??
I am a project's coordinator, one of the best, a salesman with lots of enthusiasm for gyros and even more now that I know that what I think about it is possible, I have seen it almost done.
Gyrowave will promote gyros at different levels and today it will represent Butterfly in South America, with rights to build complete kits in Brazil (unbelievable prices), you will be proud of it someday!
No I can not sell butterfly products in America, only trough Larry.
I will have an e-commerce to sell all other items not covered by Butterfly's patents, wheels, tanks, props, blades, instruments, acessories, pilot's gear and so on . . .
I have this idea of a snap on gyro that could give the novice a chance to try the hobby without spending a lot, also a comunity machine (chapters?) that can be rented for solo and practice.
It is a complete take on gyro aviation, I have spent lots of hours in research an planning, it looks good and fun to operate and I will have the best seat in the house while making some money (don't care much about it)
It is just a suberb job to me!
Thanks
Heron

[CLS447]

Surely Heron, you have pics of your time with Larry N. ..... Please share!

[Chuck Irby]

That's very interesting, Heron. Best wishes to you, in that endeavor. I hope it all goes well.

[Caribean_gyro]

my 2 cents. flying is expemsive, and danger. Not every body can have a corvette or a lincon navigator. I am in favor of a solid machine with good manners or at least no hiden tricks. that can fly me around cost effective.

COst effective is not 5 bucks an hour. It measn I dont have to sacrifice my other thing in life I enjoy just for a ride. I see gyros a woman, you big,short, black , white with 2 big personality and no personality. But ehy always find a lover.

dominator,monarch,RAF, etc will find there lovers. SO lest make a profecional sales pitch without stepping on the other guys. They deserve respect from the old timers and the new guy in the block.

that is what I feel
Chuck Peterson
in sane pilot on weekends

[Heron]

Thanks Chuck, just a tiny bit of the whole thing will make me a very happy man!
Chris:
I have plenty of pics, matter fact about 10 CD's full, one problem though my pc is down in Brazil and I do not have software here to shrink them to fit. This one is Larry shaking hands with Dick DeGraw at S-N-F, I cut Larry's happy face out of it.
The time I spent in Texas is deeply embeded in my heart, I had such a wonderfull reception, a great bunch of people.
I wish everyone realized that all the advances in gyros today come from the pioneers and names like Chuck B., Ernie Boyette, Dick DeGraw, Larry Neal, Craig Wall and others are always interacting and giving each other insight and support to make a better machine.
Some times it seems we are "camping" with one side or the other, it is just preferences and momentary, all deserve our respect and support.
If Ernie follows up with the next level that our machines are about to achieve, we are going to have a ball with our hobby, talking as an enthusiast.
Good things are coming!
Heron

[Heron]

Lots of excitment!
Dr. Klimt is an investor with CC.
Found software! Will post :D

[CLS447]

Thanks Heron, hope to see more! Talking with Dick Degraw is a very happy experience! I actually got to fly with him in his Dominator at Bensen Days 2003. That guy is really something!

[Heron]

First time I saw him was at Bensen Days 2001 and walked up behind Ernie's tent and I greeted him. He stoped and we chated for a while and when he left I said to myself:
Hey stupid that is Dick DeGraw! What business you have talking gyros with a legend?
But he made me feel so confortable and was so forthcoming with answer that I will have to love tha man . . .
Heron

[Brad_King]

Bob and Ron,

I know yall are Dominator owners and are proud of your machines. The gentleman who started the thread ask about the virtures of one machine vs. the other so he and others could make informed decisions. No one has attacked the Dominator in this thread. I don't understand how yall can make such comments and attack an aircraft neither one of you has seen. A picture may be worth a 1000 words but it doesn't tell the whole story. After yall have seen one of these machines perform and have had a chance to look them over carefully then you can give an INFORMED opinion. Until then your comments can only viewed as defending, without cause, something that has not been attacked.
I have met both of you in person and found both of you to be pleasant and knowledgeable people. This performance seems beneath the 2 people I remember.


Sincerely,
Brad King
N6372K
Mad Max II LTC

PS I did a static test of my electric prerotator I achieved 130 RRPM with my 29' Dragonwings

[rwr]

Wow. Talk about attacking, eh? Accusing someone of attacking or being defensive, does not mean they were attacking or being defensive. It only means your opinion leans that way.

Making objective observations does not equate to an attack. If I note that a yaw surface only can use the lower half of the prop flow, that is not an attack, nor is it a defense of anything at all. It is just an observation. You erroneously infer an attack.

If I note that a 582 with extra intake and exhaust silencers only improves the power to weight ratio a tiny bit over a 503, that is not at attack either,.... just a point being made.

Claiming my "performance" is beneath me is confusing. That sounds like a "shame on you" statement. Or maybe now I am inferring something that isn't there. ;-)

Anyway, I maintain there is nothing wrong with bringing up some obvious points. Just because I have owned a Dominator does not mean I am defending it whenever I make a point about another design. I still own a Bensen. Does that mean I am defending Igor's design when I mention the Gyrobee's uncentered thrustline? Methinks not.

[GyroRon]

Brad I have never flown in a RAF without a stab, but yet I just know what it would be like to fly one.

I have yet to fly a Monarch or a Butterfly, but I think I also have a pretty good idea how it will fly..... And I think it will fly very good. Just like Bob said above I am not defending my choice in flying machines - or backing the product of one of my friends - and I am not saying that Larrys machines are not good. I am just saying from my experience with electric pre rotators, shorter tails, etc... and my experience with Ernies pre rotators and tall tails, etc... what my opinion is of the two machines.

Like I said, I am sure that Larrys gyros fly great. I wouldn't think twice about owning or flying one of them either. But this thread was started asking for opinions on the two machines and my opinion is a tall tail is better than a short tail, I don't like the way the entire tail is held on with one pivoting bolt, and I place value on a aircrafts ability to take off in as little runway as possible and that in most cases a electric prerotator can only spin up blades about 1/2 to 3/5ths as fast as other options and the faster you can pre rotate, the quicker you can get off the ground. All of these things matter to me when I consider a machine for purchase. The price is also a serious consideration too. I am not sure what Larry is charging for the Monarch, but I would not be surprised to find the price higher than a Dominator. All of these are factors in making a decision to purchase one machine over the other. I am just stating my opinion. If I am wrong about something I am basing my opinion on please tell me. I didn't know Larry has worked the electric prerotators to do 200 RPM, so that might mean one less area the Dominator has a advantage.'

Speaking of advantage, the Monarch has a few over the Dominator. It will come in Kit form, where Dominators aren't sold as " kits". Monarch has the better landing gear! Monarch may be lighter than Dominators when equipped with the same level of stuff.

[Heron]

Now we are talking Ron!
They are great machines both of them!
I have been around Hector's Dominator since started pursuing gyros few years back and still love to see it take up in the air.
I think I have not seen you flying a Dominator yet, last time we've met was at La Belle, when you and Julian took the rain going back to Imokalee.
But here is what I can say about Larry's ships:
You can start with a Butterfly basic: no pre-rotator, triangular suspension with shocks and 503 engine. Ultralite.
Up grades are: manual pre-rotator, or electric that allows you to use DW's, you know this drill. No longer ultralite!
With the same airframe, you can go MOnarch:
G-Force suspension and 582 Rotax.
All plug-n-play, no difficulties. If You can turn nuts and bolts you can put one together.
I would like to see a comparison chart between both machines as far as flying, take offs, climb, speeds, etc. Pretty much they will match.
I saw a very short take off, but here I am the enthusiast, You can not claim that kind of maneuver as regular stuff as a manufacturer, it was about 25 feet.
IN a no wind situation, in 7 seconds it is in the air.
But I never seen anything as short as David Seace's take off at Wauchula, he taxied towards the runway, cross the taxyway, stoped and it seems to me his whells never completed the first circle . . .he lifted off! Unbelievable!!!
Heron

[Brad_King]

Guys,

I would like to discuss this in greater detail. I am at Oshkosh. Going on 6 hrs sleep a nite. When I see mentions of obsolete tech(the tail), must be lying about the weight(340) and prerotator RRPM (150-170 not 200), saying the stab is small when you can't see it in the pic, the tail is probably going to wobble(3/4" AN bolt set in 2 bearings in bearing blocks 3" apart with a castle nut and key), unstable in yaw when you haven't seen it fly(the tail is HUGE). It does seem like less than objective opinions. You both have seen Bees and RAFs in person and can make informed opinions on these aircraft. Not so with the Monarch.

I think you are both good people. That is why I was suprised to see the above opinions
from you.

Brad King
N6372K
Mad Max II LTC

[rwr]

Opinions, by very definition, are subjective. Observations can be more objective.

When I made the comment about the HS, I did not say it WAS small. I voiced an opinion, since the photo was not very illustrative.

When I made the comment about the yaw surface only immersed in the lower half of the propflow, that was an observation, not an opinion. There are some rather specific conclusions an engineer can draw from seeing something like that. It is similar to an engineer looking at a photo of an aircraft that weighs 10,000 lbs and has a wing with an area of 100 sq ft. It is not an opinion by that engineer that such an aircraft is going to have a lengthy takeoff roll. It is not an opinion that a gyro with the yaw surface in only the lower half of the propflow is going to exhibit some characteristics that might be improved by a tall tail with the yaw surface in the lower AND upper flow off the prop.

I never accused anyone of lying. I did imply there was something amiss, since my single-seat Dominator, with less construction material/propulsion system/smaller rotor/no battery weighed almost as much as the claimed weight for the Monarch.

Using your reasoning, someone might infer that you are implying I am not "good people" because I had some opinions that differ from yours. I don't think you are trying to do that.

[barnstorm2]

2-Cents from a passively shopping gyro customer:

I am still working off my 2-place and will be for the next 1 to 2 years. However, the taste of power and CLT has me itching for a single place with some get up and go on a budget. ( My current single place is a AC447, 80's vintage)

The contenders for my next gyro so far are; Dominator, Monarch, Little Wing, GyroBee and Air Command Elite. As this topic is D x M I will keep it to that.

Monarch

Pros:

If you have seen the footage of the Monarch landing with the super-struts how can you not want one?? I have a blast landing my 447, if I had a Monarch I would be hogging the pattern all day!

I like the style of the machine.

KIT! I don't want to do a plans-build. I am tired of building and I want to fly. I would rather buy a gyro in a kit or better yet, semi-assembled form. (quick build)

Price as listed: $16K, plus ( good for me ) a Pay-as-you-go plan!


Cons:

Heron please don't flame me but for me it is an issue.

SUPPORT.

I went to Bensen Days 2004 and Mentone 2004 and though hoping to see a Monarch in action there was none. Not even a representative.

As a past customer of Larry's products I know what it is like to have support for the product cut, have continous missed ship date issues and poor quality control.

I don't want to buy a Monarch, have a strut go bad and be left out in the cold (again) like with my 'no hope on the horizons' redrive.

Monarch Summary:

If more people get involved in the Monarch project to the extent that I feel there is support for the product that will stay around for a few years the gyro would be my choice hands-down. I suppose this would come in the form of dealers that had a good reputation and showed up at Bensen Days and Mentone.

I think the Monarch landing gear is a real plus to our hobby and could be a key ingredient for bringing in new blood, new pilots and attention from the general sport pilot crowd.

The 120 RRPM x 200 RRPM of the pre-rotorator is a non-issue for me unless it indicates someone is lying about the specs of the machine.

You only have to do a Google search on Monarch Gyroplane to see the great press the Monarch is getting.

DOMINATOR

PROs

Proven performace. Even world records!

Support, representation. I have never flown a Dominator but I have many friends who have. I have also seen many hours of them flying at Dominator Days err. I mean.. Bensen Days and Mentone. RFD and Ernie are renown for continuing support.

Used market. There are enough Dominators around that I have a resonable chance of buying one of these craft used.

Cons:

NO KIT.

The web page http://www.rotorflightdynamicsinc.com/single.html says some pre-made parts are available but no list, no prices.

I am tired of building. I just want to fly. No plans-built for me.

Stop-n-drop is only 2 feet.


Other Points:

One of the questions this thread started with was what about 2-place training for these craft? For me this is a non-issue. True, there are 2-place dominators available but none of the trainers I train with use these. Even if my trainer had a 2-place version of my single place, from experience I know that the difference is still dramatic. A good trainer will transition you to your single place no matter what it is (IMHO).

Summary:

If I had the money in my pocket right now I would be shopping for a used Dominator. I am not willing to risk $15ish grand on an unsupported gyro that does not even show up at Mentone. Even if Ernie went on to other projects I know I would still get top-notch support from him and the other Dominator people.

The fact the Ron feels you get more bang-for-the-buck with a Dominator goes a long way to swing my decision also. When it comes to spending money I NEVER dismiss Ron's input.

I won't have $ for a new Single place for 2 years. Therefore, by that time perhaps there will be Monarch support infrastructure around so that I feel I can fly that cool landing gear and not be worried I would be stuck with an unsupported investment.

Non-the-less, I have ernist hope that someday I will be a Monarch owner. If no support shows up I might consider budgeting the purchase of extra parts (shocks) so that I have spares should I be unable to get mfg support a year or two after purchase. Perhaps someday Larry will make an 'upgrade' kit to modify Dominators with his new gear?

[Heron]

Tim, no flame here, you have a complaint, I heard both sides, end of it for me.
As far as Ron's opinions and guidance it is a very good thing we have him, going out and trying as many aircraft as he can, and especially coming here with his openess sharing all, with pics!
Great job Ron!!
Now when it comes to Monarch I told Ron already, go do you home work and he did not and went on blind sided selling Dominators.
If he did his home work this thread would be shorter and the gentleman that started it (Phil Viper 22) would have better input. Ron's word as an experimenter would be great had he flown the MOnarch.
It would be an interesting test and I hope it happens soon (I am a big hoper) :D
Plus I would like to be present to help him walk straight after the flight. Adrenaline rushes make your legs rubber!!!
Once again: Dominators rock . . .MOnarchs rock and roll!!
Heron
Plane Bob Slick 50

[GyroRon]

Tim - and anyone else interested - although Ernie doesn't sell a dominator " Kit " he will sell you anything you want to build one, from a set of plans only to a set of plans and the materials to build, to the plans and all the parts to build pre drilled and ready for paint and assembly, to a assembled machine ready for paint, all the way up to a turn key ready to fly - factory test flown and tweaked - gyro.

AND........ you can't beat his prices.

At this past Bensen Days he had three new machines to sell. One was a loaded performance single place - the yellow one Randy Olsen just bought at Mentone - that was priced to sell at 18 grand. This gyro had it all, hydro pre rotator, large seat tank with padded cover, a 100 horsepower Subaru with autoflight re-drive, Warp drive prop, Dragon wings, a loaded instrument panel, Pod and windshield, etc.... BUILT AND TEST FLOWN READY TO BUY, TAKE HOME, AND ENJOY all for 18 grand. Come on how can you beat that Heron?

Then he had the Ultrawhite, which is a more basic nearly legal ultralight single place. Power is Rotax 503, Warp drive prop, Wunderlick pre rotator modified to get over 260 RRPM by Ernie, Suspension, Attractive clear 8 gallon fuel tank, 23 foot dragons, nice instrument pod with flight and engine monitoring instruments. This gyro could be easily upgraded to a larger engine, or the installation of a pod and windshield, etc.. etc... and it was probably the most fun flying gyro I have ever flown, Brand new test flown and ready to go 12 grand. Again how can you beat that?

Then the last machine was a complete Ultrawhite airframe built and only needing painting - everything else was on there and done such as rudder cables, brake cables etc... The ONLY things needed to complete this gyro was paint, a Rotax 503 engine, a Prop and whatever instruments you wanted to use in the pod that came with it. Price...... Try 6500$.

HELLO............................................. ....................... Can someone say hell of a deal??? Made in America and all that good stuff!

So even though there is not a Dominator kit to buy, you can more or less get a kit if that is what you want. Ernie just doesn't market his machines that way, maybe to avoid possible lawsuits and all that crappy stuff that goes with being a kitmaker.

The Monarch is not priced too high though IMHO, for what you get. But the Dominator is clearly a better machine Dollar for Dollar.

[GyroRon]

Also want to say that although I have not flown a Monarch - or a Bandit, or Sparrowhawk, or Little Wing, or Sportcopter, or many others - I have flown alot of other gyros, including probably close to 10 different Dominators.

No two gyros flew the same. Every gyro had a slightly different feel and handled just a bit different from the next.

Some of the gyros I have flown had tall tails, some did not. Some had Horizontals in the propwash, some on the keel, and a few had no stab. Some had pump sticks, some had Brock style sticks. Some had two strokes, some had four strokes.

So of all the gyros I have flown is there anything I like to see on a gyro as a rule of thumb? Yes... I like the feel and control of a tall tail over a short tail. I like the feel of the machines with the horizontal in the propwash - even if the tail is short it still makes a difference to the better having the stab in the propwash. I do not like pump sticks. And last If I were to plan to fly off grass or any other bumpy surface I would want either real cushy tires or some kind of suspension, a basic Bensen type of machine just gets hammered too hard and can be hard to control on a bumpy grass strip.

Heron you make it out that if I were to fly the Monarch I would be in love with it and the rest of the gyros out there would be crap afterwards. Maybe that is true, but I still have my opinion of Monarch verses Dominator and no part of my opinion is strickly based on how either gyro flys other than the short verses tall tail. And Heron, have you done your homework? You haven't flown one either yet you come here and tell us all that the Monarch Rocks and Rolls. How would you know? Cause you watched Larry Neal or Matt Pearson fly it? Any good gyro pilot - both of these guys are great pilots - can make just about any average gyro look like it is the best thing since sliced Bread. Ever watch Steve McGowan fly his gyro solo? He puts on a heck of a show, but let me tell you, his machine is not what I would call a great flying machine - it is a good trainer though... -

[GyroRon]

And Heron when I have a chance to fly a Monarch or Butterfly, you better believe I will fly the piss out of it. And I will tell everyone what I thought about it. I have always said I am sure it is a great flying gyro. If it weights what you guys say it weights it should put the smackdown on my fatass Dominator.


The Bottomline is I base my preferences on more than just how a ship flys. I place alot on value, on future support, on my relationship with the company, proven track records, etc... etc... Right now the Dominator has all of these things, the Monarch will take a little time to earn them.

and look it is also like this... I drive a Chevy truck. I have also owned and driven late model Dodge and Ford trucks too. I prefer the Chevy hands down over the Ford and still like the Chevy a good bit more than the Dodge. I like Chevys and think everyone should buy a chevy, But to each his own. If Stan bought another Ford truck then fine! If Larry Neal drives a Dodge Ram turbo diesel - don't know what he really drives - then more power to him... But for me and my preferences, the only truck to have is a Chevy. And it isn't cause my favorite nascar driver drives a chevy - I don't watch nascar!

[PW_Plack]

OK Ron, I'll bite...

...then how come you have a favorite NASCAR driver, and know what he drives? ;)

[Heron]

He drives a Chevy!
NO it is not the matter wich one is going to retire the other, it is the gap between them we like to measure.
If you do not relax it will be more painfull!
I know for a fact that they are good machines, and for a fact that the differences will point to MOnarch by a nose, and I know MOnarchs rock and roll.
Those prices on Dominators are good, and if I can work to make gyros cheaper I will be helping everyone.
Maybe I should be a little selfifh and put training back as priority and go fly forgetting all this gyro movement thing.
By the way happy anniversary too me, one year on the road to gyros, full time!
After 17.500 miles driven, 7.500 dollars spent, one international trip and lots of talking and experimenting, Gyrowave still harming up its engines.
IN time you will lay down the scoop and all will profit from your findings.
Bottom line: Viper22 take o good indepth look at both machines and lets us know what you think.

[Chuck Roberg]

Here's some Butterfly pictures from OshKosh. The person behind the gyro is our club vice president Adam Helwich.

[Chuck Roberg]

Here's the suspension.

[Chuck Roberg]

More of the suspension.

[Chuck Roberg]

Prerotor. The prerotor did seem rather large compared to other electric prerotors I have seen. But then again I hear he gets pretty good speeds with it.

[Chuck Roberg]

Control assembly.

[Chuck Roberg]

Engine and controls.

Unfortunatly there was a rain storm during the time Larry was going to demo the gyro. So I did not get to see him fly it.

[barnstorm2]

That is a fine looking machine!

BIG pre-rotator.

Pictures show quality work and components all around so far as I can tell.

Can you replace the pump stick with something else more Ken Brockish?

[GyroRon]

the seat looks angled too far forward. Looks like you would slide right out of it while on the ground.

[Heron]

Very nice pics Chuck, thank you!!
Ron . . .aw . . .forget it!! :D
I whish I could be there . . .and Mentone and BD and. . . .
I love the meetings!!!
Heron

[Chuck Roberg]

Ron, I didn't sit in it so I can't comment on the seat.

Tim, I didn't care for the pump handle joystick. It was starting to show some sideways slop in it when I tried it.

[Aussie_Paul]

Typical Air Command seat Ron. Lose you feet of the pedals and the only thing holding you in is the harness.

Certainly is a different machine to most, and looks very well made. After having an air command with all those tube attachments that squeek and loosen, and having heard explanations on how they load all the bolts and brackets incorrectly. I am not a fan of that method of constyruction.

i would like to know more about the BIG pre rotator motor and how they do the soft start.

Pretty neat and tidy though.

Aussie Paul.:)

[Heron]

Uh . . .guys . . .we started dissecting a Monarch in the Dominator Thread!
Not very elegant . . .sorry Ernie!
Lets move this to the proper thread, shall we?
Dominators Rock!!!
Heron

[birdy]

Hang the Monarchs and dominators,a 912 Rosco would kick all asses. :D :D

[Chuck Irby]

Heron, thread hijacking is one of the things we do best. :D

Birdy, machine vs machine, I doubt seriously that your Roscoe would out perform my Dominator. Too bad we can't try it side by side. :)

[birdy]

Who do you mean Chuck.?
It depends on wot you want to do don't it??
I'd say by look'n at your pick you'd kick me ass climb'n[power to weight],but thats where it would end.Besides,I only climb to 20' and level off anyway. :D
Your's is much bigger and dragy and you'v got one of them.........hmmmm.....them flat things on your rudder. :D :D :rolleyes:

[Chuck Irby]

Pretty good response, Birdman. :D

I don't remember ever seeing a picture of your Roscoe. I saw some cows and an ugly left foot, I remember. Why don't you post a picture of it?

As for the low flight, when I get the opportunity to fly low, I do. I love flying over pastures and hay fields. Sometimes I have to go up a couple of feet just to clear the barbed wire fences. :D

I think I remember you telling me that your 912 was worn down to maybe 60 to 65 HP, and mine is probably close to 75. Plus, I figure my machine is lighter, and doubt that yours will do 100 mph. So that's where I was coming from Birdy.

In all seriousness, I wish there was some way we could have a world wide fly-in where we could all meet and fly together.

[Heron]

Two way ticket to Australia at 2.500 . . .gotta be a fat wallet!
I am trying to bring some of the Brazilian guys here but they are too cheap!
It is only 800 bucks high season and as low as 400 on low season.
Hey Chuck I am a master hijacker, and got me flat ass chewed quite a few times . . .:D
Heron

[pwendell]

Ron,

I'm just curious, but my understanding is that if I buy a fully assembled Dominator I can't get an airworthiness certificate for it, at least not an amateur built one. It may qualify for an Experimental/Exhibition category, but that if very restrictive. So what good would it do me, who lives near a large class 'B' airspace and will probably fly out of a class 'D' airport, to buy a prebuilt Dominator?

[GyroRon]

I will let you ask Ernie how that works. Just know that there is a lot of airplanes, gyros, helicopters, etc... factory built or professionally built that end up registered as if the purchaser had done the build him or herself. I am not saying Ernie sells his this way or not, but IF he did he would not be the only one doing that.

[Ralph]

There is a major article in the new EAA Sport Aviation magazine that stresses the importance of maintaining the integrity of the "51% Rule" and some of the current trends that threaten to undermine the FAA's intent.

Ralph

[Udi]

An amateur built aircraft does not have to be built by the owner. It can be built by another "amateur" person or even by a group of people. I can build the aircraft, Peter, and you can register it. You will not get, however, a repairman certificate unless you demonstrate that you are proficient enough with the construction and repair of that aircraft.

If you want to be more religious than the pope than you better make sure you do at least 51% of the work yourself. How do you determine what constitutes 51% of the work in a non-kit, plans built, aircraft like the Dominator? You – the builder sign an affidavit that says you did at least 51% of the work.

I say use your own judgement (and don't make waves).

Udi

[birdy]

wunder if it'll work this time?? :mad:

[birdy]

%^*($_#!&*%** :mad: :mad: :mad:
This thing's gona go out the window soon :mad:

[birdy]

HEY,I did it.!!!
There ya go Chuck I.,the Rosco.
I duno how it appened,but it's there now.

[CLS447]

Wow! Thats alot of engine for a lightweight gyro. I'll bet it really goes.

[birdy]

447,
it's a necissary evil,altitude and fly'n conditions call for a higher power to weight ratio. :rolleyes:
Chuck I,
The only drawback with live'n isolated is I'm isolated :rolleyes: :D .I reckon I'm the best pilot for a thousand miles,I'm also the only one for a thousand miles. :(
There's no more interesting sight for me than to watch someone else fly.
I'd like to watch some of the ledgends fly.

BTW,I dought mine would do 100mph if me rotors fell off. :D

[bones]

gees Birdy you could have at least give it a wash those yanks will think we are all completely feral, well we are but dont tell them that.

[bones]

arrr sh*t put that on the wrong forum :)))

[birdy]

It was washed,I flew through some rain only 6 months earler.

[barnstorm2]

Looks like a good 'worken gyro to me!

If I was a cow I would be scared!

[Chuck Irby]

I like it Birdman! Sounds like you wash yours the same way I do mine. However, I do keep all five of the blades clean.

[pwendell]

Udi,

I know that I can buy a 'used' amateur built, but the original builder has to provide some documentation to get the airworthiness certificate, doesn't he/she?

I'm not trying to make waves or interfere with what anyone else doing. It's just that I've heard of a few instances of 'pre-built' gyros being sold, and I was just wondering if they were being flown as 'fat' ultralights or what.