PRA Board

[Rotornut]

Hey who is on the Board for PRA now?? MJ :)

[GyroRon]

MJ were you at Mr. Fish not at Mentone? I thought you guys were going.

[gyroplanes]

I think there were 4 seats open. Ora Cook and Ernie Boyette were re-elected(?)(I know they are on the board)
Tim Blackwell is newly elected as was Robert Rymer, who is our new PRA treasurer.

The 2005 convention will again be in Mentone and chaired again, by Rick Marshall.

I volunteered to be Chapter Co-ordinator.

[Rando]

Tom,

What was discussed at the Life Members and General Members meeting?

[Dean_Dolph]

I helped count ballots (again!) and in the process was reminded that we actually voted for 5 board members. Old age keeps me from remembering all that were elected but Tim Blackwell, Ora Cook, Joe Swanton and Robert Rymer were elected, now who was the fifth? Embarrassing, but forgetting some of the good also means I forget the bad!

The numbers that each candidate received won't be released (I can't remember what they were anyway!) but I suspect Rusty Nance would have been a board member but Rusty informed the PRA a couple of weeks ago that he has been called to active duty and won't be available.

PRA Vice-President Dave Prater is the election chairman and has asked the mag editor to report the number of ballots cast. It didn't appear to me that there were as many cast as last year. But the membership is down considerably so it will be interesting to see what percentage of members voted.

What was discussed at the Life Members and the General Membership meetings is worthy of another thread. I'm still trying to catch up on what has been posted since I left for Mentone and may find that one has been started to address this subject.

[Chuck Roberg]

The biggest topic at both meetings was the drop in PRA membership.

The PRA needs 1000 more members to remain financially viable. Ways were discussed to cut costs. One of which was to go to a quarterly magazine. But it was decided most members would not like that.

Another option was to raise the member dues. It would be $12 more per member to make the PRA financially sound. It was decided to raise the dues $5 but I can't rember the start date. I believe it's Sept. 1st.

The Mentone airport will be paid off in 2 years 3 months. (yea!). This will lessen the financial burden some what.

They are looking for a webmaster who knows PHP to manage the PRA web site. There were many comments on how bad it is now. The problem is there is no money available to pay anyone so it will have to be gratis.

It was brought up the back bone of the PRA is the chapters. It was decided to keep better contact with the chapters. Plus try to keep the chapter information up to date. Tom Milton got tasked with this chore.

Other items were brought up, but nothing was really resolved.

The only item I was told about from the Board members meeting was the dues change. Maybe Tom Milton or another board member could reply here.

[Whirlydog]

The chapter may be the back bone of the PRA and the BOD the head, but what is the heart and soul of the PRA? Figure that out and you might be able to do a little "CPR" and get the blood flowing and get the PRA growing again. I believe the magazine is the Heart and life line of the PRA, increase the quantity and quality, and you will see the numbers grow.

What do you think is the heart of the PRA? How do we get it to pump more blood (life) into the PRA?

If Mentone is to ever become the "Oshkosh" of Rotorcraft, we need to determain what the heart is and do some "OPEN HEART SURGERY".

Shawn Rowland just a concerned member.

[GyroRon]

Raise the dues and I may be out. I already don't feel I get my moneys worth as it is. Maybe if the magazine was 10 times better and there were other perks I would welcome higher dues, but right now I don't.

[Heron]

A credit card would give good income.
Can someone make money out of the web site while maintaining it? Maybe giving back 10% of the revenue?
A dollar a month is nothing for the members, raise it!
An e-commerce of different products should cover all costs and those products could be also related to gyros.
Maybe hiring someone full time on comission to explore the commercial side of this big data base could be the key.
Heron

[dkryzer]

I was a memeber of the PRA for many years. In the 90's, shortly after the Mentone airport was purchased, the politics of the PRA really ramped up and has continued to get worse. Now they are asking themselves why they are loosing members? You do not need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out. The politics and good ole "Mentone airpirt boy" club has caused this. Every member of the PRA should be asking themselves "what good has the purchase of the airport brought to the organization? The answer is VERY LITTLE!! This place has sucked more money and resources out of the PRA than any "general" member ever will be told.

Another question each member should be asking themselves. Do the PRA board of directors listen to the general membership. If you look back over the past 15 years, you will see that they do not listen to members.

It's time for a change and it starts at the top with the board of directors. These folks need to be held accountable. Just to warn you though, that when you start to ask questions and demand answers, you will be tagged as a trouble maker. Don't back down. Remember there is power in numbers.

Each member has to make his or her own decision if this organization is right for them. Currently there really is not another organization other than the PRA for rotor heads. This may change soon!

[quadrirotor]

proposition?

[Heron]

This is the grapevine talk all over!
As no official word came out to dismiss the charges or explain them, many people take it as the ongoing plot.
Without a leader, a group is just a mob and wastes most of its energy, we need to push all in the same direction to see our PRA growing!
Heron

[Dean_Dolph]

You just registered on the Forum and this is your first post so I'm not sure what your intent is but it looks like you have an axe to grind. I find that people that have an axe to grind usually loose sight of the facts and let their emotions take over. And to tell you the truth I'm having trouble staying under control this a.m. myself! I guess I'm going thru sympathetic nicotine withdrawal with GyroRon.

I was a memeber of the PRA for many years. In the 90's, shortly after the Mentone airport was purchased, the politics of the PRA really ramped up and has continued to get worse.Really! In what way?

Now they are asking themselves why they are loosing members? You do not need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out. The politics and good ole "Mentone airpirt boy" club has caused this. I guess you are psychic (psycho?) if you know this to be the reason. Being psychic is good; now tell us how this is all going to turn out.

Every member of the PRA should be asking themselves "what good has the purchase of the airport brought to the organization? The answer is VERY LITTLE!! Well for one thing, the purchase means we always have a gyro friendly place to hold the convention and that is enough for me.

This place has sucked more money and resources out of the PRA than any "general" member ever will be told. Ah, come on; don't be so mysterious! Give us the details, not many of us are psychic like you.

Another question each member should be asking themselves. Do the PRA board of directors listen to the general membership. If you look back over the past 15 years, you will see that they do not listen to members. Your whole diatribe has been ambiguous at best, why don't you cut the b.s. and give us some examples.

It's time for a change and it starts at the top with the board of directors. These folks need to be held accountable. Just to warn you though, that when you start to ask questions and demand answers, you will be tagged as a trouble maker. Don't back down. Remember there is power in numbers. You must be living in a time warp! The members have had the right to change the Board for a number of years now. Troublemaker? Yep, that’s me! I haven't found a board member yet that wouldn't listen to me, answer my questions or consider my input. Maybe it is because I treat them with respect that I receive the same. You should try it sometime.

Each member has to make his or her own decision if this organization is right for them. Currently there really is not another organization other than the PRA for rotor heads. This may change soon! Are you going to be a member? If so no thanks!


Note to the rest of the Forum members, I apologize for being so grumpy this a.m but I can see it is going to be one of those days. Ron and I are going to take it one temptation at a time.

[Dean_Dolph]

Heron, I think dkryzer has an opening in a new organization for you.

[Chuck Roberg]

I seen dkryzer's post earlier and I was going to comment. I'm glad I didn't. Because Dean summed it up a lot better than I could.

Since the Mentone Airport is self supporting and will be paid off in a few years I don't understand his comment on how it's a drain.

So dkryzer, if you have some examples to back up what you said. Please post them here. I'll be more ready to listen to examples than baseless rhetoric.

[KenSandyEggo]

I wasn't around here at the time I don't think, but out of curiousity, who made the decision to buy the airport? Were the members told about it first in the magazine and then voted on it, or was it a decision solely by the board? When did the members find out about the purchase.....before it was made or afterwards? Was there any input from anyone besides the board members?

[Heron]

Sensei . . .I like the PRA just fine, I am not divisive. I want more, bigger, better . . anything wrong with that!
But is sucks big time . . ..
I can show you why and how to make it better, do you want to bet my renewal fee?
Heron

[gyroplanes]

If so, what's got into you?

I have always been available to answer questions and bring things before the board. Have you ever contacted me? Same phone number and e-mail address for 10 years or more.

The "money pit" that you call OUR airport has cost the PRA exactly what they were paying in rent, for a room in a funeral home in Louisiana. The airports assessed value has more than doubled and, as Chuck said, it's almost paid off.

Maybe you had better lurk for a while before you come in here and say things you'd later regret.

Oh! and another thing. Am I a part of the "good Ole Boy Airport Mentone Boy Club" or whatever?

[Vance]

For me the PRA is amazing. Here are a lot of nice, smart people working very hard to help me have a good time. They have a lovely facility. They are instrumental in my ability to get training. They put out an informative magizine.

I like their old website better and the magizine has been better in the past but since I am not helping with either one I don't have much to complain about. I know people who feel they have been treated badly, but I think that is unavoidable when a bunch of smart people with strong personalities get together.

Members and chapters are the backbone of the EAA. The EAA is not perfect and they make people mad all the time. I think that they are still a good role model.

Even if I was upset with the PRA it beats the heck out of not having an orginazition. I beleive if we all help a little the PRA will become even better.

Thank You,Vance

[Heron]

Thanks Tom . . .
It is always good to hear both sides. I wish we could buy more areas suitable for gyroports and have more options.
It looks like the Mentone deal is a good deal after all.
Or not . . .?
Heron

[Rando]

For me the PRA is amazing. Here are a lot of nice, smart people working very hard to help me have a good time. They have a lovely facility. They are instrumental in my ability to get training. They put out an informative magizine.

I like their old website better and the magizine has been better in the past but since I am not helping with either one I don't have much to complain about. I know people who feel they have been treated badly, but I think that is unavoidable when a bunch of smart people with strong personalities get together.

Members and chapters are the backbone of the EAA. The EAA is not perfect and they make people mad all the time. I think that they are still a good roll model.

Even if I was upset with the PRA it beats the heck out of not having an orginazition. I beleive if we all help a little the PRA will become even better.

Thank You,Vance

I agree and echo what Vance said! You show me a perfect organization and I will join it!

[KenSandyEggo]

I agree and echo what Vance said! You show me a perfect organization and I will join it!
The Ken Sandyeggo Fan Club. No member meetings, no board meetings, no annual meetings, no minutes of meetings, no magazine, no website, no voting, no results, no office, no employees, no property, no discussions.....no anything. Dues are $150 per year and I'll take certified check, money order or best of all....cash. How's that for a perfect organization? I'll even send out a pre-addressed stamped envelope to those that want to join. ;)

[Vance]

Nicely said Ken. I think I will wait and see how succesfull it is and if it is going to be properly promoted before I Join. Thank You Vance

[KenSandyEggo]

I left out....no promotion.

[Hognose]

How to grow the membership? Give value for money, and spread the word.

Agreed the website blows. However, why must it be .php based? Frankly, static pages would probably be easier to set up and maintain. If I was doing it there would be no graphic kitsch -- if people wait for an image to download, it should be one that conveys information, not is a decoration.

Why not do a banner swop with other aviation websites to promote the PRA site?

Accurate, current information. For instance, this list should be the current board members:
http://www.pra.org/boardMembers.php

It ain't.

Again, why not have board minutes on the web site? If you want to make the org grow, make it so people don't need to make a pilgrimage to Mentone to find out what's going on. Even the Muslims will bend -- the Hajj is only required of those who are able to do it. If Mohammed (who was not exactly the Mr Flexibility of cult leaders) could bend a little, we ought to be able to.

One of the best things on the PRA site is the list of CFIs -- which is not up to date -- and the

there should be a statement of philosophy from the board -- perhaps there has been -- on where PRA fits vis-a-vis EAA, ASC, USUA, AOPA and other organizations. There should be a mention of RAF's captive Ask First Society too. From the web, the PRA doesn't look as squared away as Ask First.

cheers

-=K=-
cheers

-=K=-

[KenSandyEggo]

Ask First is NOT squared away. Go to their site and check out the last post in their "Guest Book." It's been there 5 days. When they were somewhat squared away, I'd be lucky if one of my posts would last more than a 1/2 hour before being "banished" to vapor-heaven by Dick. Now no one cares.....by them or about them.

[cgmg]

A couple of comments regarding this line of discussion:

This PRA convention was a first visit for my wife and I. It's a great facility for hosting a gyro convention. Plenty of open area for flying, it's far enough from town to not bother any of the residents, and it's got plenty of room, except for hangar space, which looked to be a little crowded when bad weather threatens. But knowing the small membership that supports the airport, I was impressed. So I don't have any problem with the organization owning the airstrip.

Did not get to meet Gary G., but did get served a hamburger by him when he was filling in doing kitchen duty. Watched Tom Milton work his you-know-what off setting up for the various meetings in the new meeting trailer. Greg Gremminger was running from one end to the other trying to give demo rides, answer questions, and give presentations. Joe Swanton is one of the nicest guys you would ever want to meet(note: Greg and Joe are members of my club, so maybe I'm biased with these two?). Met Rick Marshall, who seemed like a pretty friendly guy, and didn't see him sitting around much.

We were only there for a day and a half, but talked to probably 20 or 30 different people at the show, and only heard a complaint from one member of our club who didn't like the hoops he felt he had to jump through to get flight permission. I met way more people who are truly excited about our sport, and were having a good time at the convention. One individual we met rode his bike 1500 miles to attend the convention.

Did not get to meet any of the newer board members, as I'm still intimidated by my lack of knowledge concerning gyros compared to some of the individuals who were there. And my wife and I were covering Greg's tent, helping schedule demo flights for him, and answering questions about Magni's, and gyro flying in general(Steph had to stay home). Maybe I missed something, but this looked like a gathering of pretty friendly, and hard-working gyro nuts. My wife said she was impressed by the people, and had a way better time than she expected to have. We are already planning on attending next year.

There may be some problems with egos, or somewhat of an "inner circle" mentality of a few board members, but I sure didn't see any signs of it. And I am impressed with the drive and ideas of some of the newer board members, so let's cut the crap and the carping about how it used to be, and move forward. Let's let the new board work on some of the real problem issues, and support them in their attempts to improve our organization.

It's real easy to sit back and b--ch about what's wrong. Other than doing that, what are some of you doing to help make it better? We're going to be helping at our next club fly-in, instead of just showing up and flying.

[jamiebodie]

It's time for a change and it starts at the top with the board of directors. These folks need to be held accountable. Just to warn you though, that when you start to ask questions and demand answers, you will be tagged as a trouble maker. Don't back down. Remember there is power in numbers.


HMMMMMMM!

Who does own the airport?

[Heron]

Lets exercise our imagination shall we?
Maybe Ken J. is the best for this, he's got the goodies . . .
Describe me the most important meeting of the year, by the biggest gyro association in the world, in their own airport, in the USA! Please?
Lets see how bigger and better it is from another fly in?
Heron
P.S. please remember I am from a third world country, so, don't dazzle me . . .

[gyroblackwell]

As a member of this forum, and now a member of the board, you will find that I am happy to answewr (or get answers) any questions you might have.

Could you imagine not having the airport? What if 9/11 had been more like 7/25 .... do you think we would have a place to hold a convention? I think not!

As for the Mentone Mofia ..... I have lived here for 1 year now .... And I don't see any group of people that control things, only people that give up alot of there time, and money to make the convention happen each year. I got to be involved in that group this year, and let me tell you what ..... That is alot of work, with little to no time for anything else.

If I had a gyro to fly .... I probably would not have flown at all during the convention. Just not enough time in the day to cover all the bases.

I am looking forward to ROC, so that I can goof-off and have some fun, and let others do the work!! (just kidding) I will be glad to help out where I can!

Anyone who needs to "speak to a board member" .... here I am !!

Right here on the forum.

:D

[Brent_Brown]

Hi Tim and thanks for being here. I have to say I was not for the buying of the airport just for the reason we have now.
Members are form all over the place and one airport will never be for all of them. You said your going to ROC, well I guess 9/11 or 7/11 didn't stop Bensen Days, Sun and Fun or ROC so what is the point we still have fly-ins at other places.
I was hoping we the PRA would just have a great Mag and great people to fly with or BS with. The airport is just to polictical I guess.
Good Luck

[quadrirotor]

If the PRA disapears, what about the airport?

[jamiebodie]

Hi Tim,
Glad to see you are now a board member. I personally think owning the airport is a good idea. Would you do me a favor though, could you get the PRA to prove that the airport is actually owned by the PRA and it's members. You see the BOD for PRA Mentone is not the same as the BOD for the PRA. I am not saying or even suggesting that there is any wrong doing here, but I fought for many months before giving up - trying to gain access to such a document. See if you have better luck than Maxie and myself. Be warned asking for this document will not gain you any friends on the BOD. Why is this doc so hard to produce?

OH yeah! We would love to see the minutes from the last BOD meeting, so we can keep up with what is going on.

Looking forward to seeing you at ROC. I hope we have a chance to sit down and have a beer together.

Jamie

[jucie]

... could you get the PRA to prove that the airport is actually owned by the PRA and it's members ... Why is this doc so hard to produce?

I am not a lawyer, I am not a PRA member, but I have an opinion, if you guys dont mind.

Somebody said the very purpose PRA Mentone was created is to separate liabilities, so that nobody can say the airport is owned by PRA, isolating the organization from any airport problem if it ever happens.

If a PRA representative makes a document that states "PRA owns the airport" or "PRA controls PRA Mentone that owns the airport" or anything to that effect, then the very intent for separating becomes frustrated. A lawyer could use that same document to prossecute PRA.

So, nobody could make such a document, not even officially state anything like that.

Am I saying bs? Is there some lawyers here? Please help me understand this issue.

[Dean_Dolph]

Not very likely so this is purely a hypothetical question, one that I can't answer however. Maybe T. Milton or Tim Blackwell can, or at least find out.

[jamiebodie]

I would be happy with documentation of the owner, whomever it might or might not be.

[gyroblackwell]

Good to here from you Jamie.

Actually I don't need to ask anyone for the documentation for the Airport. It is a public document that you can get a copy of online! Now if I can just fined the site!

The BOD for the airport are made up of local people so that local people can take care of it. Anyone (including myself) can rent the airport, and all checks air made out to the PRA. I rent hanger space at the airport (40$/month) and all my checks are written out to the PRA (not PRA-mentone-inc.) I did ask to be voted onto the PRA-Mentone board, but a vote was taken by the PRA BOD to make changes to the mentone BOD, or leave it alone. It was voted to leave it alone. I don't care .... I just wanted to help take care of the Airport.
I mow the grass, and am upgrading the East/West grass strip to better accomidate ultralights.

The books show that the airport keeps a 10$ balance of it's checking, and all income that does not go to Airport payments, and maintanence, goes into the PRA pot!

I want to see the Airport make money for the PRA, by renting it out to other fly-in groups, and organizations. This would help bolster the PRA funds.

I will see if I can produce the document you are seeking.
:D

[barnstorm2]

Hey have I seen this thread before? I wonder where we are going?

[Heron]

. . .and I am happy to see more people involved coming here and talk to us! thank you all!
Heron :)

[Rotornut]

Dean, Jamie, Tim, Good Post. But I have asked alot of question, and been assured that I can see any document that I wish to, and I believe that when Gary told me this he meant it and would back it up with the papers. Now I am un happy about alot, Maxie resigining and Dan, I meet them in 1994 and they Are Family. But I will not be pulled into a tit for tat fight. Good reason honest, feelings and a over all good for all PRA members is my way. So I will keep looking and asking, and nosing around. I hope that I have not been lied to are blind sided by anyone answering my questions. As I would not lie to them.

As for the airport I think its Great for all Members. Out of the way but hey so is Florida and BD Days. That is the least of our worries for now. We need to be strong Together not framented apart. So lets all stay close in touch and work this out. I do trust that Gary has All our Best Interest at Heart.

Thanks again for your post, I need to read and learn, and Understand more.
MJ :)

[Heron]

M.J. somewhere in between lies the truth!
All this guys look honest and forthcoming to me. I will be surprised if they are lieing (s?)
I have been looking for a position equidistant for an airport and Mentone/Wauchula look not too bad afterall. Besides the tradition and charm will make it like going to Meca (not a good choice of words nowadays)
But it is a good idea to have more airports on our control.
We need to firm our leadership in order do grow and have a louder voice to work issues with EAA/FAA (remember my first posts back in 1999?)
Heron

[barnstorm2]

Once Mentone is fully paid off and is earning $ for PRA I would very much like to see us purchase another airport(s) in the far West and central US. Airports pay for themselves and give us perfect places for fly-ins and conventions.

[gyroplanes]

Let's forget Mentone airport is an airport. Let's just say that the PRA bought a bond and as a bonus they got free rent for their office. Not only is that a good deal, the bond is now worth over double it's face value.

I don't know much about investments, but I've offered to buy out PRA Mentone several times so they can walk away from "the big mistake". No takers.

[quadrirotor]

may be that's why PRA is gyro oriented!? helicopters do not need airports!

[Udi]

The Mentone airport is owned by "PRA Mentone, Inc". See link.

http://www.gcr1.com/5010web/main.cfm?Site=C92

I think the root of the problem is that people don't know who is the LEGAL owner of the “PRA Mentone Inc.” In other words - could the PRA Mentone Inc BOD sell the airport, buy an amusement park instead and change their name to Mentone Amusement Parks Inc?

I think this is the only sticking point that needs answering. Tim – the document that Jamie and others are looking for is the one that shows that PRA Mentone Inc is legally owned by the PRA. Can you find that document?

Udi

[barnstorm2]

Udi, I am no legal expert but I do have lots of business experience.

The sticking point seems to be that some people can't understand that direct ownership of the airport is a liability. PEROID

It has already been explained (again and again) that the airport has been purchased and is run in accordance with the laws governing non-profit orgs for the state of IN.

Judging from the posts and emails I have seen circulated on this topic this is not about some individuals concerned about the PRA’s assets, as Mentone has been a bonus to us big time, but rather some disgruntled individuals lashing out in an unconstructive manner.

Unfortunately, this teacup tempest dissuades the new gyro curious, gives very false impressions and does emotional harm to those volunteers who have put there own time, resources and money on the line to help the PRA. None of the disgruntled individuals have (that I am aware of) risked so much as a dime for the purchase of Mentone, but rather have in the past been actually receiving money from the PRA for their own projects. Because of economic downturn and inability of these pet projects to perform as desired the board cancelled the pet project’s funding from the PRA and now they are out to get a pound of flesh anyway they can.

So what if someone did sell off Mentone? You and I would not be out a dime. In fact we would have profited from it. If Mentone gets mis-managed or sold off then is the time for discussion. So far as I can tell it is doing and doing us just fine.

I have said nothing new in this post. This has been hashed over in the older thread and as I see it needs no repeating in this thread.

[Dean_Dolph]

Off topic, Andre!

[Udi]

Tim,

Let me say that I am not connected with any of the "involved parties" in this argument. I am just an interested member who is trying to understand the issues. I definitely do not want to stir the pot and make people upset. Just the opposite! Can we discuss the issues without getting too upset and start throwing plates at each other? If not, ok, I will not ask any more questions. Tim Blackwell has offered to answer people's questions, so maybe we can try talking about the real issues in a mature and civilized way? Lets stop accusing people of having dark motives and try to iron out some of the issues (wishful thinking, I know).

You said:

The sticking point seems to be that some people can't understand that direct ownership of the airport is a liability. PEROID

To me, this sounds like your own opinion. Saying PERIOD does not make it a fact. I would be interested to know the PROCESS in which the PRA went about:

1. buying the airport,
2. getting legal advice with regard to liability (what is the risk?),
3. deciding to form a new entity which will own the airport, and,
4. setting up this new entity, and making sure the interests of the PRA membership are not being compromised.

I am sure all of these steps have happened, but we don't know anything about the process that was taking place, and we don’t know how this is set up. How is it that all this was going on, and the members didn’t know about it?

Tim, I do not question the integrity of the PRA leadership. I know they are all good people with the best intentions at hart. But when the leadership is making significant decisions without even informing the membership about them, people like me, who are completely outside of the loop, get the impression that they are doing things "behind our backs" (thus came up the word mafia).

Not accusing anyone with anything. Just asking for clear explanations of the facts, that’s all. I am taking Tim B’s offer to get all the questions answered.

Udi

[barnstorm2]

Udi,

I concur.

Did you read the posts by Tom M and Gary G in the old thread? I think your questions are answered there.

[Heron]

If it happened, its to blame in all membership, including those who were in the inner circle and no longer are . . .
For years of dealing with people and getting to know them well, trusting them to have the powers they have to create another corporation to protect the PRA, and in due time present the results clean and free it is up to us all. If those people betray the principle at the end . . .we all loose and will have to resort to courts to get back what is ours.
What are the next steps on that airport as far as near future and who is in charge of deciding this steps?
Heron

[Rotornut]

Thanks for the link Udi. And good post. MJ :)

[Hognose]

Ask First is NOT squared away. Go to their site and check out the last post in their "Guest Book." It's been there 5 days. When they were somewhat squared away, I'd be lucky if one of my posts would last more than a 1/2 hour....

Still there. You crack me up, Ace. Guys, Ken tells the people on the RAF-sponsored site "go to rotaryforum for good information -- you won't find it here." BWAHHAHAHAHAAA! He also plugs AAI.

And I used to call myself the Gyro Guerilla! Beret's off to Ken.

...but I wonder if a 914 would be a better motor for the guy in Colorado; yeah, the 2.5's good, but you can make serious altitude with a 914 (ask Andy Keech!)

cheers

-=K=-

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Maybe the reason the " Ask First " gang is no longer of any signifigance is because before people go to them for training they " Ask First " :D :D

Chuck E.

[jamiebodie]

Udi wrote:

http://www.gcr1.com/5010web/main.cfm?Site=C92

I think the root of the problem is that people don't know who is the LEGAL owner of the “PRA Mentone Inc.” In other words - could the PRA Mentone Inc BOD sell the airport, buy an amusement park instead and change their name to Mentone Amusement Parks Inc?

I think this is the only sticking point that needs answering. Tim – the document that Jamie and others are looking for is the one that shows that PRA Mentone Inc is legally owned by the PRA. Can you find that document?

Thank God, there is someone who understands and does not get snowed by a good sell job.

As for O'connor, he believes whatever he is told without any evidence to back it up. I bet he still believes that some people wanted to sell the airport or move PRA headquarters. Why? That is what he has been told.

BTW, I still have all the old files from the PRA BOD forum and I can prove my stance and voting record on most issues, as well as everyone elses. I can guarantee you that if it weren't for myself and Maxie Wildes, Tom Milton would not be on the BOD right now. The BOD wanted to do their wishes and not what the by-laws said.

Hey Tim O, are you coming to ROC? I would love to sit down and talk with you.

Jamie

[Heron]

And that, my friends, would be a good chat to listen to!
Heron

[Rotornut]

Gary, Can you Step in Here and tell us where we can get a copy of the Document, and so forth to prove to us Family, PRA that this Airport does indeed belong to PRA Members, as in PRA Period.

Some how this needs to be Resolved ASAP!! As my Patience is wearing Thin!

We as a Chapter and Members have that Right to Know for Sure! Without a Doubt.

Myself I am tired of the White Wash and all the Promises and so forth, lets see for Ourselves. Show us the Document and all will be Done.!

I have never asked to see it, but I have been Reasured that it is so. So Now I am Asking as a PRA Member and Chapter Treasurer and Secretary to be shown the Document, so I can relieve Sunstate Members minds who have Questions.

Thank You Gary In Advance. MJ :)

[Rotornut]

I did not mean to make such a Harsh Post, but I am getting more involved in PRA than what I orginaly intented. Cant type, this stuff gets to me. We are a Organization, a Association, Chapters, Club Members, Family that Grows on you and with you.

God I miss Floyd Browning, he would always calm me and explain it to me in plane statements, another is Ed Adlerfer he was honest and up front. Tom Milton when I meet him in 1995 I was impressed he was a Board Member at that time and up for reelection.

Of Course Charlie Presnell Version was a little Rougher than Floyd lol.

Mr Ora Cook a very good Member and Family of Sunstate, gosh I sure do depend on him and Miss Annie so much at BD Days and New Years. Sunstate is lucky to have several of the older gyro pilots and they keep us on task.

Like cookouts and pot luck on Tue or Wed starting BD Days, Mss. Annie and Mrs Susie Welles feed all very well along with Dorthy Busbee, Margie Mc'Near, Connie Boyette they did a wonderful donation job with the dinner.

Ernie and Connie Boyette join in and pull their weight when asked or needed.
Several Showed up to set up this year for BD Days. It was nice to have the members pull together.

What I want is for all this PRA INC, PRA MENTONE to be resloved, and proof of that would do it. So lets see if we can see and read for ourselves. I think now is the time for a PRA Pres or VP to at least tell us were to find this Document.

Again sorry for earlier post, just want it over, so PRA can Grow Stronger.
MJ :)

[jamiebodie]

Udi wrote:
In other words - could the PRA Mentone Inc BOD sell the airport, buy an amusement park instead and change their name to Mentone Amusement Parks Inc?

I believe they could do this and not one PRA member or board member would be able to do one thing about it. PRA Mentone owns the airport and as far as I can tell is completely disconnected from the PRA except by name. It has been almost a year now and no one has come up with any paperwork to prove otherwise. At least 3 BOD members have resigned at least in part due to the way the PRA president and the remaining BOD members have allowed this, and other important questions, to drag on.

It is highly unlikely that Gary will be fulfilling MJ's request. First of all I don't believe the documentation exists and that there is absolutely no system of checks and balances between the PRA and PRA Mentone. Secondly if he produces the paperwork now why didn't he just show it so long ago when he was asked for it? Was he trying to run certain BOD members off of the board, or did he just not want to give the information to "THEM."

Tim have you had any luck with your quest for knowledge?

Guys, I am sorry there appears to be a large error in the way these two organizations were set up and it needs to be fixed. A little restructuring could solve the whole problem. I am not saying that anyone wants to steal the airport and sell it. I am saying that the way things are set up now that could happen. Let's keep honest people honest.

[barnstorm2]

Jamie,

No plans on ROC, right now I can only budget 2 major gyro events a year.


Perhaps if you don't understand the point in simplest form post #34 by Jucie can shed some light as well as going back to the original thread this topic was discussed in an reading Gary's letter.

I will try to spell it out as I understand it.

1. If PRA has direct ownership of Mentone Airport then a liability risk is present.
2. PRA Mentone was created to remove this liability risk to PRA and was setup in accordance with non-profit orgs in IN.
3. If a document existed that showed direct ownership of Mentone Airport by the PRA then we would have liability risk(1) and therefore not need (2).
4. Thankfully, we are very lucky that we have board members that are not only willing to go far beyond the call of duty for the PRA but also have enough real-world successful business experience that they realize this and have protected the PRA and set this up in the most intelligent manner(2).

The document you keep demanding (that would show a direct ownership of Mentone Airport) cannot exist with out putting the PRA in a serious liability situation (see 1 again).

This is quite similar to how I used to do business as a consultant. My lawyer and I setup a company that I operated under so if something unexpected happened and I was sued they could only take company assets not my house! (my assets). This is a very simple version as LLCs, Airports and Non-profit orgs throws a great deal of complexity into the mix but it is the same general philosophy.

I fail to see why this is not clear and evident unless you have had few dealings as the owner of a successful business.

Do you believe that there is no liability if you own a Airport and some law unbeknownst to accountants and lawyers exists that would protect the PRA from all liability and suits as the owner of Mentone Airport ( in other words my assumption #1 above is false)?

If so please share it here as it would have meant my dirt-poor collage buddy who is now an multimillionaire ambulance chaser (Accident Lawyer) somehow managed to avoid it while he put a couple of small trucking companies out of business and lined his pockets.

[jamiebodie]

See my replies within the body of Tim's text below.

Jamie,

No plans on ROC, right now I can only budget 2 major gyro events a year. That is too bad. I really would love to sit down with you, I just don't think you get it.


Perhaps if you don't understand the point in simplest form post #34 by Jucie can shed some light as well as going back to the original thread this topic was discussed in an reading Gary's letter. It is not about liability, it is about ownership. You can have ownership and still reduce liability. Don't you understand that?


I will try to spell it out as I understand it.

1. If PRA has direct ownership of Mentone Airport then a liability risk is present. This is what you don't get. We don't have any form of ownership, direct, indirect or any other. I understand setting up a buffer to reduce liability but you must do so with a system of checks and balances. The parent organization must have some way of controlling it's assets. This would be like you buying a car, parking it at my house, putting insurance on it, allowing me to drive it and I could sell it any time that I wanted. THERE HAS TO BE SOME DOCUMENT THAT SHOWS THAT THE PRA, THEREFORE THE PRA MEMBERS, HAVE CONTROLLING INTEREST OVER THE AIRPORT OR WE ARE BUYING IT FOR SOMEONE ELSE.

2. PRA Mentone was created to remove this liability risk to PRA and was setup in accordance with non-profit orgs in IN. No problem with how PRA Mentone was setup, except it needs to be under the controll of the PRA or we are buying someone else and airport.

3. If a document existed that showed direct ownership of Mentone Airport by the PRA then we would have liability risk(1) and therefore not need (2). So if you buy a gyro, keep it in my hangar, allow me to fly it and sell it whenever I wish you would have no liabiltiy either. It's true you wouldn't have any liability - you also would not truly own your gyro because I could sell it at will and you could end up with none of the money. How about it?


4. Thankfully, we are very lucky that we have board members that are not only willing to go far beyond the call of duty for the PRA but also have enough real-world successful business experience that they realize this and have protected the PRA and set this up in the most intelligent manner(2). Yea, keep you eyes closed and follow the sound of the other sheep and you will get there.

The document you keep demanding (that would show a direct ownership of Mentone Airport) cannot exist with out putting the PRA in a serious liability situation (see 1 again). BS, reducing liability is what insurance and properly set up organizations are for, buying and airport and giving someone else TOTAL control is stupid.

This is quite similar to how I used to do business as a consultant. My lawyer and I setup a company that I operated under so if something unexpected happened and I was sued they could only take company assets not my house! (my assets). This is a very simple version as LLCs, Airports and Non-profit orgs throws a great deal of complexity into the mix but it is the same general philosophy. Again, similar maybe, with one major difference, we have no control over what happens with our airport or the proceeds from it.

I fail to see why this is not clear and evident unless you have had few dealings as the owner of a successful business.

Do you believe that there is no liability if you own a Airport and some law unbeknownst to accountants and lawyers exists that would protect the PRA from all liability and suits as the owner of Mentone Airport ( in other words my assumption #1 above is false)? I know there is liability that is not the point although you keep going back to that because that is what you are told. Take some time to think about this for yourself and I think you will start to see what is going on. Stop following blindly.

If so please share it here as it would have meant my dirt-poor collage buddy who is now an multimillionaire ambulance chaser (Accident Lawyer) somehow managed to avoid it while he put a couple of small trucking companies out of business and lined his pockets. Sucess and honesty don't go hand in hand. Keep making payments on someone elses airport and one day they just might be very financially sucessfull.

I sure wish you would allocate the funds to come to ROC so we could sit down around the campfire and discuss this directly.

Jamie

http://www.animalmakers.com/Secure/RigsPuppetsFolder/BirdsFolder/images/OstrichHeadInSand.jpg

[Udi]

This issue is becoming divisive within the PRA membership ranks. I personally know of a few people who did not attend Mentone and would not renew their membership because of it. There are at least two PRA board members who read this forum and I hope they do something about it sooner than later. If not dealt with promptly, the Mentone ownership argument could move from the theoretical to the practical sooner than you think.

LEADERS - why don't you lead?

Udi

[GyroRon]

Jamie, all good points and like MJ I am waiting.

[gyroblackwell]

Jamie,

Obiously you still have a bone to pick with the old board members.

Take a look at the legal documentation that the IRS has on their website for "not-for-profit" organizations.

1.) the airport is registered to (NOT OWNED) by PRA mentone inc.

2.) PRA mentone inc. IS A "NOT FOR PROFIT" Organization.

3.)PRA mentone Inc. has a board of directors.

4.) ALL OF THE PRA Mentone Inc. BOARD MEMBERS ARE PRA MEMBERS - just like me and (you?)
I asked to be added to the board of PRA Mentone Inc. The PRA BOD(present group) VOTED not to change anything at this time. I respect the BOD vote.

5.) The IRS says that we cannot sell the airport without dissolving PRA mentone inc. ..... PRA Mentone Inc. cannot be disolved without 100% vote from the PRA mentone inc BOARD. (the board are all PRA members) (are you?)

6.) IF the board dissolved the organization, the IRS still mandates that all profits can only go to another "not for profit" organization. NO PERSONS OR PERSON CAN TAKE POSSESSION OF PROPERTY, OR MONIES FROM THE SALE!

7.) THE ONLY OTHER "NOT FOR PROFIT" ORGANIZATION LISTED UNDER THE PRA MENTONE INC DIRECTORY IS THE "PRA". The members of the PRA own the PRA. Therefore WE (the members..... does that include you jamie?) own the PRA, and PRA Mentone Inc.

To all of my fellow PRA members: I believe that the state of Indiana, the IRS, and my personal Legal representation know what thay are talking about.

I have gone to the extent of seeking their help in answering this question once and for all.

bottom line: The pra mentone inc. is nothing more then a "not for profit" organization with a board of directors that are ALL PRA MEMBERS.

pra mentone has no ownership.
pra mentone has no share holders
pra mentone only exists because legally The PRA cannot afford the liability, and the "not for profit" would come under question.

The only document that gives any help to this is the register of the state of Indiana which lists PRA Mentone Inc. And the only other listing under PRA Mentone Inc. is the PRA association.

Your barking up a dead tree Jamie. The only skeletons that I have dug up are the ones that are in YOUR closet, And I am not going to speak of them here.

MJ please don't take this wrong, but I see no back-handed, or undermined doings by the past BOD. I have seen the records that show what was being spent for office space rent in Louisiana before mentone airport was purchased.

The PRA is not spending any more money for the Airport and it's office then was being spent before.

The Airport is a PRA investment. That means that We members have invested in property that We members get to decide what to do with in the future.

We can make money for the PRA by renting the airport out to other clubs.

It's not a bad thing. Some people just got ticked because they could not control it, and throw thier weight around.

I stand behind the PRA and it's members.

[barnstorm2]

Jamie,

Some of the statements that because of my experience I don't agree with:

"It is not about liability, it is about ownership. You can have ownership and still reduce liability. Don't you understand that?"

We don't want to just reduce liability we want to remove it. My life long friend Nancy Wilson hit a bicyclist who swerved out as she was passing in her car 2 years ago. Nancy had full coverage insurance. Nancy still lost everything and had to declare bankruptcy to keep her house. Insurance does not remove liability it just reduces it.

The car analogy is not working for me. First of all, Mentone is a revenue generator, it is making it's own payments. The car is buying itself we are not buying someone a car.

I will make one try at the car anology. 1. we did not buy the car. 2. Gary and Art bought the car for us (Thank you very much! is the proper resoponse here not a bunch of whineing) 3. The car is used to work so we need to make a company that owns the car so if we hit someone while driving the car no one goes bankrupt. 4. The car pays for its self and when it is payed off (soon) then the money goes in our pockets.

What makes you think someone is going to sell the airport(car) out from under you? Why would Gary and Art who put up the funding to buy the airport ( yes, someone put up the money for the car as we could not afford it ) for the PRA and then sell it? It would be a lot more productive to just buy it directly. And just what exactly would we loose? I did not put in a dime and I bet you did not either. Tom Milton said it very well in his post above and in his post in the original thread.

Why are you making such a big stink over something I think we both know won't happen? Why would you want the PRA to have limited liability rather than complete protection? If your worst scenario happens the result is no $ lost to the PRA but rather we benefited while we had the airport. My worst scenario we loose the PRA. That to me seems clear. What is not clear to me is why such a big deal. How are you going to be hurt if the airport is sold? How much money are you going to be out? How much money did you put in? How many hours, days, weeks, years have you volunteered at Mentone?

If you have no stake and no potential loss then why the big deal? I am left then to draw the conclusion that you have other motives for sturring up the s%^t. I would like to know what those motives are. If you return with something like "I want what is best for the PRA" then Ta-Da we already have it.

I would love to sit down and chat with you at a fly-in. I don't know why you think it would be more convincing than posting here though unless there is something you can not say here that I am unaware of. I would rather talk flying stories and hear about your gyros.

Summary:

1. There is a difference between limited and no liability
2. If the airport were a car it would be better to make it a company car so if someone hits a biker with it only the owning company gets sued and goes bankrupt not us. Insurance only goes so far.
3. There is no reason that I can see that would cause people that have put countless hours, thousands of dollars and their necks on the line for the PRA to then just sell off the airport.
4. You are 'waiting' for a document that if it existed would spell the doom of the PRA if we were sued because this would directly connect us to Mentone Airport.

[Dean_Dolph]

Tim, if people aren't satisfied by your response and lay this to rest then I don't know what it is going to take. You have explained a rather complicated and convoluted ownership path in a concise way. Everyone can be thankful that I didn't do it!

I appreciate you taking the time to ferret out the facts and to post your response.

[Ralph]

Good posts Tim!

Ralph

[Rando]

Excellent post Tim! I'm totally satisfied with your explanation.

[GyroRon]

Yes Tim that is a good post. I see your points and I agree with them to a point.

[barnstorm2]

Thanks Tim B! I wish I would have waited alittle longer then I would not have had to type mine out!

[jamiebodie]

Tim wrote:

5.) The IRS says that we cannot sell the airport without dissolving PRA mentone inc. ..... PRA Mentone Inc. cannot be disolved without 100% vote from the PRA mentone inc BOARD. (the board are all PRA members) (are you?)

6.) IF the board dissolved the organization, the IRS still mandates that all profits can only go to another "not for profit" organization. NO PERSONS OR PERSON CAN TAKE POSSESSION OF PROPERTY, OR MONIES FROM THE SALE!

That is great, show us the documentation that proves that the above two statements are true and all this will be over. Why has this taken so long with so much fight? I look forward to seeing the docs and congratulate you on getting to the bottom of this. One thing, don't tell us that this is the way it is please show us.

Tim you mentioned skeletons but did not have the backbone to discuss them. I will start a new thread for this discussion, I have NEVER done one thing as a PRA member that I am ashamed of. I think what you have heard is probably BS and I can prove it and most here that know me will know it. So don't bring it up if you aren't ready to discuss it. I look forward to hearing from you in the new thread. BTW, since before this year you had to be a lifetime member to be on the BOD you should know that I am a lifetime member of the PRA.

I do not hold one hard feeling against any of the PRA BOD members. I may not like their style of doing things but I like all the BOD members. They may not like me, but that is their problem.

To all PRA members: If you guys are willing to let this drop without seeing documentation then go ahead. I would not. I love the answers that have been posted in this thread recently and certainly hope that they are accurate, however pretend I am from Missouri and show me. Remember, whoever is feeding Tim and Tim all the BS about my past may be feeding them a line of BS about how things are organized.

Jamie Bodie

PRA LIFETIME MEMBER #33299

[jamiebodie]

What is wrong with this statement?

5.) The IRS says that we cannot sell the airport without dissolving PRA mentone inc. ..... PRA Mentone Inc. cannot be disolved without 100% vote from the PRA mentone inc BOARD. (the board are all PRA members) (are you?)

This is what I am talking about, I misread it the first time. It takes 100% vote from the PRA mentone BOD. Not the board the members elected by the PRA members, which proves that the PRA members have absolutely no say so in how their airport is run. .

You guys are OK with this? It leaves the door open for someone to steal your airport. The members of the PRA Mentone BOD are not elected they are appointed. No, I don't think they would do this but why not close the loophole and keep honest people honest. A board that you cannot vote for is deciding how, what, when and where on the airport that they claim is yours. If you guys are good with that I am. This is exactly what I have been fighting the entire time.

Jamie

PRA Lifetime member number 33299

[GyroRon]

Since I am in your chapter Jamie and also from the south, my credibility is tainted on this subject but I am with you on the Mentone BOD. If it is our airport then we as PRA members should be the ones who elect that board.

I know it was mentioned that that board needs to be people based in that area to help in person with issues at the airport. Obviously if we elected Ken J from sandyeggo to the Mentone BOD he would be of little help if a water pipe bursts on the field and someone has to go out and fix it. But there is room for improvement

I also think Don S. has the best idea and that is to make the chapter presidents the BOD. Right now there is alot of chapters that have no representation on either BOD.

[Dean_Dolph]

Hey, Jamie, we all love ya man! While not every discussion I had at Mentone this year with members of the Board included you, Dan and Maxie, the ones that did made it clear that you were all liked and people were disappointed that you guys bailed out. I can tell you that no one was more disappointed than I.

Now, go back and read Tim's post again and pay particular attention to items 6 & 7.

It looks like the documentation you want is in the IRS regs and what has been registered with the state of Indiana. If you still have a concern then those are public docs that should be available to you.

[gyroblackwell]

Jamie,

I like how you left out the part about all PRA mentone inc BOD's being PRA members ..... nice touch. Regardless of what you might want to portray, this IS NOT AND US vs. THEM situation ..... WE are THEM.

the PRA BOD,s voted to keep the other board as-is ....you helped elect the CURRENT BOARD didn't you!?!
So you helped elect the current Mentone Inc. board! there are no loopholes jamie!

If you don't like the current Mentone Inc. board, then lets bring it up at the next PRA BOD meeting and get new folks voted in. IT'S THAT SIMPLE ! Will it change anything? NO! The Airport is taken care of properly now .... Why change it? Just to calm your paranoid tendencies? Get over it!

As for me being afraid to bring out the other stuff... I was just trying to be nice about it.... but O.K. you asked for it!

I don't mind spilling some-one elses beans !!

It's funny how you feel that it's not a bad idea for the PRA to have a little liability risk.

"(This is what you don't get. We don't have any form of ownership, direct, indirect or any other. I understand setting up a buffer to reduce liability but you must do so with a system of checks and balances. The parent organization must have some way of controlling it's assets.)"

Beleive me if the PRA was.... you'd be rich at this point. After-all did'nt you try to sue the PRA after your accident at Mentone?

Didn't work because The airport and the PRA are not directly linked.... get the point!

The state of Idiana has the listing of all airports registry. If you want the document ... you pay for the copy. No state is going to give you somthing for nothing! Just my 2 cents worth.

[GyroRon]

Jamie tried to sue the PRA?

[Chuck Roberg]

I didn't think Jamie tried to sue anyone. At least not what I heard.

I did hear that who (whom) ever paid Jamie's medical bills did try to recoup their costs. Which they have the right to do. Jamie had no control over it.

[Heron]

If this is all true, the "officials" are right to keep their mouths closed, if they write something explaining why and how, that document will go against them and the set up will be in vain.
After the Convention (not the fly-in Mentone 2004) I guess you guys had to come out in the same page.
As a member of this Association isn't Jamie under the rules and liable to be penalized?
Is there a Grievance Commite in the by-laws?
I have too many cons and not a pro so far among the people that I thrust and believe in all the PRA matters.
I would love to see our Association sailing ahead full power!
Heron

[gyroblackwell]

I did not say that jamie DID sue the PRA.... I aked jamie a point blank question? Did Jamie try to sue the PRA to recoup medical cost?

This is one of those things that sticks in a persons mind, and when one of our own trys to shake the hive, and stir up the bees, Things like this come popping back into one's memory.

If I am incorrect, then I here by formally apologize, and retract the question.

As I said... I don't like throwing stones unless someone calls me chicken!

(childish I know... but hay ... we all have our limits)

I am just trying to make a point as to why the two entities exist ..... not to be sneeking and underhanded, but to protect the sport we love, and the enjoyment of a place that we can ALL fly at once, and no-one can say sh_t about it!

[Brent_Brown]

I would just like to get my PRA mags mailed to me. The last one I got was May I think.
I have emailed, sent a letter, called at differcant time of the day and only get a machine. so I give it my new address hoping someone will get it.
My dues are current too. So can someone who talks to the mailer whoever that is to help me..
My new address is 656 Flyers Drive, Linden, NC. 28356

[jamiebodie]

Tim wrote:

Beleive me if the PRA was.... you'd be rich at this point. After-all did'nt you try to sue the PRA after your accident at Mentone?

ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVICALLY, WITHOUT DOUBT THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION IS NO

Once again you have no idea what you are talking about.

Please come to ROC so we can sit down and talk, you have been severely mislead.

Jamie

PS later edit: BTW, if I had won all of the assets of the PRA, airport and all it would not have covered my medical bills, let along make me rich. Athough this is a moot point since I did not try to sue the PRA.

[jamiebodie]

Chuck wrote:

I did hear that who (whom) ever paid Jamie's medical bills did try to recoup their costs. Which they have the right to do. Jamie had no control over it.

Some of the medical facilities wrote off my bills and I have no idea what they did concerning the accident. My wife and I are still paying on the rest of the bills.

[jamiebodie]

Tim great explanation (see below)

5.) The IRS says that we cannot sell the airport without dissolving PRA mentone inc. ..... PRA Mentone Inc. cannot be disolved without 100% vote from the PRA mentone inc BOARD. (the board are all PRA members) (are you?)

6.) IF the board dissolved the organization, the IRS still mandates that all profits can only go to another "not for profit" organization. NO PERSONS OR PERSON CAN TAKE POSSESSION OF PROPERTY, OR MONIES FROM THE SALE!

7.) THE ONLY OTHER "NOT FOR PROFIT" ORGANIZATION LISTED UNDER THE PRA MENTONE INC DIRECTORY IS THE "PRA". The members of the PRA own the PRA. Therefore WE (the members..... does that include you jamie?) own the PRA, and PRA Mentone Inc.

First, that truly is the best explanation I have ever seen. I do still have one question that is bugging me just a little. The explanation that you gave seems to have the airport stuck in non-profit world forever, will the airport always have to belong to a non-profit group?

[KenSandyEggo]

I don't get it. The airport was set up separately to protect the PRA from liability? What the hell does the PRA own that an attorney would like to obtain for his client and himself? Most attorneys won't touch a case unless there is at least a big 6-figure number for him and his client to split. Does the PRA own something that's worth $500,000 plus? (Clearly, the airport doesn't count from previous posts.)

The airport seems to be the only worthwhile asset to me. If someone crashes and gets the airport in a settlement, the airport's gone, no matter whose name is on the ownership papers. Therefore, why can't the PRA be shown as owning it? What assets are there that are so surreptitiously being protected?

What if the airport goes into default? Who will the lenders come after? If they don't come after the PRA, that means we don't own diddly of the airport. I suspect they would come after PRA no matter what, because of the tie-in, such as the board members. What if there is an injury award greater than the worth of the airport? Where will the additional funds come from to pay off the remainder of the settlement? Who's responsible for paying off the rest after the claimant gets the money from the airport sale and is still owed more......just the PRA Mentone board members, or all of us as an organization? Any attorney in the world would be able to show the tie-in between PRA and PRA-Mentone easily, seeing as the same exact board members sit on both boards.

This is too much of a concern to too many members to have been stone-walled for so long.

[barnstorm2]

Ken, check out Tim Blackwells post. It looks like it is more about IN non-profit org setup.

[Thumpernator]

Yawn!!!! :eek:

Go back to sleep, Dave..........Ok.

[C. Beaty]

This thread lay dormant for two weeks until Jamie decided it was time to stir the pot again.

It amazes me how easily he can manipulate so many people.

In an earlier post, he said something like; "I don't give two rips about flying....."

I doubt if he really gives two rips about ownership of the Mentone airport.

[madmax]

I seems to me that M. J. has asked for a response from Gary G. That he
himself promised her.

So I just need to get this straight in my mind.

Gary says he has all the paper work to show that PRA Mentone is owned by the
PRA way back when but refused to show it to all of those who ask to see it.

Tim says it does not matter if PRA owns it or not. It could be sold and
nobody has lost a dime.

Gary assures MJ that he has the papers and she is welcome to see them at
anytime.

MJ ask that Gary G product the papers.

Instead of Gary G producing the papers. Tim now comes up with an
explanation and says that the papers can not exist because of liability
issues. Now I'm not sure if that is Tim calling Gary a liar, because he did
say he Would show them to MJ, or if Tim is just trying to protect Gary
because he knows they don't exist and is just saying something without
having a clue of what he is talking about. Maybe you could tell us which one
it is Tim.

However you are right about some of it. The PRA Mentone BOD's can sell the
airport at their discretion without the knowledge or consent of the PRA
BOD's. The money then has to be given to another Non profit Org..
Now sharing a name does not mean that the one with the closest name to
yours gets the money. It means that who ever gets it is a nonprofit. Such as
any church, or the Mentone homeless shelter if there is one. Then who
decides the price. Once again the PRA has no input. Could be a really great
deal for someone, even if the PRA got the money. You know, ten cent on the
dollar kind of thing.

As far as the Vote must be 100%, That would only apply only if the Bylaws
Say so. Then only if PRA Mentone BOD's make them follow the Bylaws like
Jamie, Dave and I did to get Tom on the PRA BOD's like the bylaws called
for. You see the present administration does not have a good history in
following their on Bylaws. This last PRA Election is a joke because the
bylaws were not followed.

OH yea!!!!!!!! if you want to use that letter that was Posted for Gary G.
as a response for this, or anything, bring it on. As most of the things you
get from the PRA administration, it is misleading and or incomplete at best.
However I will be glad to fill in the holes that I can if you want or every
one can just accept the fact that you will never find out until it is to
late, just as MJ must see by now.

Tim! I know you are on the PRA Board. Are you a Life member or a Temp.?


PS. Your are only screwed by your Friends and Family.



Ex. PRA Board Member and PRA life member.

Maxie Wildes

[jamiebodie]

Chuck, I only come around every couple of weeks to check up on you.

Hugs and kisses buddy.

I am not currently interested in flying being on the BOD and other responsibilities have taken care of that. I do however care about my fellow PRA members. The dissemination of any information from this organization is pathetic. If there are reasonable, simple answers to questions why is it so difficult to get any question answered?

[Rando]

I apologize in advance for being easily confused but I have a simple question. Who really gives a rip about who owns Mentone airport? I sure don't. It doesn't cost me or any other PRA member any money each month! I think it was very nice of Gary and Art to put up the money to purchase an airport that WE all get to enjoy. What is the big deal anyway? I am with Tom Milton, I applaud Gary and Art for doing something that WE ALL get to use and enjoy. If I had the money, I would purchase an airport and donate it to the PRA!

When I see how much money our Governement wastes that we all have to pay for with our tax money, it makes me sick! Just as sick as all this bickering about who owns Mentone airport. I really don't care as long as we have a place to have a Convention each year! Why don't you guys devote your energy doing something about wasteful government spending? Instead, we just keep paying high taxes and alot of us don't even vote!

[C. Beaty]

Jamie said:

I do however care about my fellow PRA members.

Sure, Jamie. You care so much that you'll get your revenge against Gary Goldsberry for pulling the plug on your sweetheart deals whether it means destroying the PRA or not.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

And as usual, Maxie doesn't have the foggiest notion as to what he's flapping his mouth about.

A statement by the president of PRA Mentone that the PRA owns the airport is ipso facto a binding and enforceable contract. Legal jargon does not make a contract more legal.

[barnstorm2]

Randy, I am right there with you and so are scores of people that have talked to me and sent me emails that don't want to jump into this.

As I said from my first post on this thread and the old one: You can tell from the tone that it does not seem about being constructive it seems to be about disgruntled people trying to get a pound of flesh.

God help anyone who trys to use the same tone and accusation style back though!

Some can dish it out but not take it. Some can make accusations and conspiracy theories all day long but one comes there way, Watch OUT!

Art and Gary could have easily bought the airport for themselves but they didn’t they bought it for us. Yet somehow there is panic about selling of Mentone by people that don’t give a s&^t about Mentone anyway. It looks like total politics to me and the sad part is the people that have donated and done the most for the PRA are the victims.

Let this be clear: I don’t believe that Jamie would try to sue the PRA, though I could see a greedy lawyer trying to talk him into it.

However, I would like to use this as an example of how ridiculous this situation is.

Though there is no way I can see any motivation for anyone to sell off Mentone who is on the board and to do so would be futile as it could only go to a non-prof-org. The whole scheme is so mind-bendingly far fetched it’s crazy. The accused (PRA Board) have and continue to work so very hard for the PRA and donate so much of their time and money this line of reasoning seems psychotic.

Meanwhile, what do you think would happen if someone points out that one of the only people that keep stirring up the s@#t could potentially profit from PRA in direct control of the Airport? Is there a statute of limitations on Jamie’s accident? Perhaps this is all a scheme for Maxie and Jamie to get into the pockets of Gary and Art and take down the PRA while they are at it???

Let me point out again that I don’t think this is the case, but rather it is a much more plausible scenario based on the actions of Jamie and Maxi and the fact Jamie had an accident at a PRA event then the board of directors going though all this trouble and risk to bring the PRA the Mentone Airport to then just sell it off and have the proceeds go to some other non-profit!

[barnstorm2]

Randy,

I failed to also say you are completely correct. We should be THANKING Gary, Art and the board for putting their asses on the line for us and buying the airport!

THANK YOU PRA BOARD!!!

[Chuck Roberg]

Duh! I was going to post something.

But why bother.

I'd rather see this thread die.

[Heron]

Ugly :(
That's what it is . . .
Heron

[Brian Jackson]

I'm a PRA newbie and have no business on this thread. In fact I only received my membership card about 2 days ago (PRA #40105, thanks Joe Swanton! :) ). But I do agree that resentments and "dirty laundry" have no place on a public forum where new visitors might form their first impressions of our great organization. If the first thing they see is bitterness and animosity amongst ourselves, a negative opinion is formed, which certainly doesn't help attract newcomers.

Granted it's human nature to have conflicts, otherwise Hollywood would be out of business. But such deep-seeded personal issues, in my opinion, tend to polarize newcomers who come here just wanting to learn how to build and fly gyros. I recently left the church I belonged to because the internal politics, gossip and bad-mouthing got more attention than why we were there to begin with. End result: I'm still a Christian, but no longer attend that church. It was just a real turn-off for me and many of our new members. Those arguments belonged in church staff meetings instead of via rumor and innuendo in the general congregation.

I sincerely hope my analogy hasn't/doesn't piss anyone off because, as a newbie, I'm hoping to form lasting friendships with all PRA'ers; BOD or otherwise. I'm just here as an eager student.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

[Udi]

Brian is absolutely correct. Members are already leaving the PRA because of this, and other, internal disputes. Damage control is what's called for at this time. The only people who can stop this train are the people who sit on top. The leaders of the PRA are letting this get out of hand. They should TALK with regional leaders about these issues, and they should also use the only official communication device they have - the Rotorcraft Magazine – to communicate with the general membership.

Unfortunately, politics is part of any organization and the leaders of the PRA should get their heads our of the sand and start communicating with people like Maxie, MJ, and others who are influential in their own neck of the woods. The PRA is a global organization. You can't run it successfully without talking with members around the country and the world on a regular basis.

That's my take on it.

Udi

[gyroblackwell]

Jamie,
From what I am being advised, The Airport must stay within a non-profit organization in order to have tax exemption. IF it cannot be transfered to another org. then the state takes it over!

I guess that is why I don't feel threatened about someone stealing the Airport, or it's worth. They simply can't!

[gyroblackwell]

Maxie,

Yes I am A Life member. I paid my 500$ just like you ..... Only NOT an EX !!! :)

[barnstorm2]

Everyone can stop blaming everyone else! Why?

Because I did it! Yes, the conspiracy is entirely my idea and under my control and no one else! So you can all stop bickering, alienating new members and get back to work!

How did I do it you ask!?! It was no simple task!

It all started when I was in the army back in WWII. I was assigned duty in Dayton Ohio guarding Area 51 where the crashed UFO was held. The army took me off the duty however because I was too famous to work on Top Secret projects, you see I am actually Elvis!

I went back to my rock and roll job and then the Aliens contacted me. They wanted me to help them get their ship back! But what could I do? I was a public figure and too strung out on drugs!

They put me in contact with Jimi Hendrix and he took me to the Purple Haze in the Bermuda Triangle where I was re-incarnated as a computer network engineer. I then found out that there had been a leak about the UFO in Area 51 so the army ( now the Air Force ) moved the craft and buried under Mentone Airport in IN!

The solution was simple, just buy the airport and dig up the UFO for the Aliens. I asked the Aliens for money but they had none. They did however manage to use extra equipment from there C-rations to construct a primitive lathe and make a mind-control device. The device had one limitation though…. It only worked on people when they were flying in a gyrocopter!

I was in luck though! It just happened that Jim and Tammy Fay Baker were taking a demo gyro ride! I channeled into their bodies and started a not-for-profit evangelistic organization that would raise all the money I need. After the money was raised I manipulated Jim and Tammy into IRS problems.

Just when I thought my troubles were over Tammy started her own cosmetics company and drained some of my liquid assets! As I was recouping control Gary and Art bought the Mentone Airport for the PRA! ARRGH! But wait I am in luck! All these people fly gyros! Using the last of the Alien C-rations I mind-controlled the PRA board to setup the Airport so that it could only be purchased by an non-profit org. AhhHa!

Then things went down hill again, Jamie’s insurance company ( run by a competing race of Aliens ) wanted to recoup the money they lost in there phony insurance company so they could buy Stone Hinge. They then mind controlled him to start a controversy that they hoped would lead to them acquiring Mentone Airport’s assets! Jamie, who has given up flying is therefore immune to my mind-control device.

FOILED!

So that is it. I am solely to blame for all of this. Please go back to your normal lives, fly, build gyros and sign up new members.

I would have gotten away with it too if it weren’t for those meddling kids on the Forum!

[gforgyro]

See IRS publication #557. If you still have questions contact me. Some do not understand, some cannot, and some will not.

[Heron]

Beg to differ Rotopix!
This forum serves a better purpose just because you can expose your ideas in different levels.
So you abandoned your church uh? What a Christian you are . . .imagine if they still throw people to the lions.
Go back an fight for your church, throw out the ones that are not good!
See . . . there are two or more opinions about just everything . .. you had the right to do what you did and I am with you, if you really think this is the best course of action (not that you need my support)
I can fight you about anything and can play "devil's advocate" in any issue.
Some issues I just watch and enjoy, others I am passionate about and have a mouth full to spill.
WE have to solve this problem and if Jamie and anyone else that is trying to undermine a good effort they have to be stoped and even penalized if wrong.
I am pretty confident the day this guys see they are wrong they will come here and say so!
I only see them fighting for what they believe is right or wrong.
WE learned about the airport discussion that it was a good deal, and should be replicated, at the end is a free airport for our use.
Lets try to participate and stay focused, the idea behind the discussion is better participation from the leaders. They coming out little by little!
Thanks
Heron

[jamiebodie]

Tim wrote:
Let this be clear: I don’t believe that Jamie would try to sue the PRA, though I could see a greedy lawyer trying to talk him into it.

Thanks, I do appreciate that.

However, I would like to use this as an example of how ridiculous this situation is.

Though there is no way I can see any motivation for anyone to sell off Mentone who is on the board and to do so would be futile as it could only go to a non-prof-org. The whole scheme is so mind-bendingly far fetched it’s crazy. The accused (PRA Board) have and continue to work so very hard for the PRA and donate so much of their time and money this line of reasoning seems psychotic.

Meanwhile, what do you think would happen if someone points out that one of the only people that keep stirring up the s@#t could potentially profit from PRA in direct control of the Airport? Is there a statute of limitations on Jamie’s accident?

Yes, and it expired 4 years ago.

Do you guys realize that for well over a year we have been asking the same questions without getting an answer? The closest we have come to an answer is within the last week in some of the posts here. I still feel that things should be arranged differently and that if the PRA members are buying an airport they should at LEAST get to vote for the people who control what happnens to it. Also please realize that we have never accused anyone of trying to steal anything, our quest has always been for documentation concerning the way the PRA and PRA Mentone are set up. We still have not recieved anything. It does come down to politics and the fact that the GOBs from Indiana don't like Maxie and myself. A simple letter from the PRA lawyer or a good explanation from anyone with documents to support the explanation would have been good enough a year ago. If it does not bother you that your PRA BOD had to be forced to follow it's own by-laws and will not take the time to answer a year old question that is dividing the membership then I simply don't know what to say. The way that the divisions of the PRA are set up is certainly not optimal but had they been well presented and clearly explained long ago we certainly would not be here now. So don't blame Max and myself, this would have been over long ago if those in power had not stonewalled our efforts to have a few questions answered. BTW, the most recent PRA election went against our by-laws does that bother anyone, or can we just make up the rules as we go? Sorry guys I have to admit I just don't understand your way of thinking. That being said, when you see me at a fly-in lets take a moment to sit down and talk. I promise to do my best to be sure we leave as friends, maybe ones that disagree, but friends.

Jamie

[GyroRon]

Jamie could you tell us how the election was not right? Was the votes in Florida mishandled?

[Rando]

May I suggest you form a new organization, set it up with rules that you think are fair, purchase an airport and allow every member to have equal control. Let me know what the membership will cost and I might even join!

You show me a perfect organization, and I will join! We are so lucky that Gary and Art had a vision and made it become a reality! Do you honestly think that Gary did something that he alone would personally benefit from? I am sure that Paul Poberezny (EAA Founder) didn't always please every member, but he had vision and look where the EAA is today!

[GyroRon]

Randy, are you suggesting that if there is problems with the way things are being run in the PRA, that since the PRA is the only gyro Org. that we should just be happy and joyfull that we have - A - Org and deal with the B.S.????

All I would like to see is more comunication from the Board over matters. As Vice President of our Local Chapter I have been made aware of things that the general chapter members would never know about, but in many cases I thought about it and asked the other Chapter officers why couldn't we make this issue or item something the whole chapter knows about or votes on. I think it was a good choice and would like to see the BOD do more of the same.

[madmax]

Well as usual. It looks like every one will just lay down and take it. I guess this means the MJ won't see the papers that Gary promised. Believe me I Don't care what PRA Mentone owns. Just don't tell me it is the PRA's and this will die.

Chuck you need to take your med's. It looks like your Blood Pressure is up again.

Tim Your not an ex yet. You have 8 years left to get to my frustration level. Tell me then how you feel. I have seen the money leave to maintain the Airport while the member services are dropped to cover the cost.

If any of you want to see the PRA grow then you need to put your money where your mouth is. A membership drive will not be THE answer. I hear that there are a lot of you that are not members of the PRA. All of you can fix that tomorrow. It is needed, but all of the other support that has been dropped in the past needs to be added back. We have lost issues of the Magazine, advertising because of product bashing (RAF and others),members because of the same,the web page is real bad now so it does not pull in the members as it once did,some people that do have memberships don't get their mag,there is no longer a TV show that is viewed by the public that not only brought in new members but helped to keep the ones we had.

Fix this and you will see it grow. Fix it not and watch it die.

The only real asset the PRA has is it's members and only the members came make it grow, but even the old diehards need some stimulation some times. The Airport may be something to brag about to some and spend lots of money on, But I have never heard of anyone that joined the PRA or remain a member because of an Airport, not one. But many have left because their enthusiasm was not nurtured.

[Rando]

Maxie, I apologize in advance if I am wrong, but didn't you, Jamie and Dan quit because you didn't like or didn't get the answers that you wanted? If it's true, then how can you fix something from the outside? And where were the other board members when the questions were asked? Didn't they want to know to?

[madmax]

I'm not planning on fixing it.

The PRA had some good people in office that were there at the members request, looking out for the members best interest only. When a question of substance was asked, if there ever was a response, it was normally in the manor of an attack. Of course a question that never goes away gets even more hostile, such as the Airport. If I have to stand alone in my belief then that is what I do. I make a special effort to not get caught up in any buddy buddy system.

You may think, well what about Jamie, Dave,Larry and Dan. Ask them all. we have butted heads just as hard. We know that every one has the right to see things differently and we accept that. How ever there is no doubt how we each feel about an issue when we are thru. Then if we decide we are just going to disagree even after we show our evidence and we can't see eye to eye. It is time to go eat or something and we go. Together as friends who disagree. The one thing we never do is promise to produce something then never do it.

As far as the other Board members! They all voted to make the PRA what it is today. Short on money, short on members, little to no membership support, boosting full support of the PRA Mentone airport with no paper work to support their claim and no intention on following their on Bylaws. By the way ask to see the Bylaws for PRA Mentone. See as a PRA member if they will give you a copy or post them on this forum so everyone can see how the corporation is set up. Even that could resolve the Airport issue if it is there to service the PRA. There has to be a complete set to get Incorporated.

If you are looking for a few to fix this then you will see it implode on it's self. It will take every one. Each member will have to stand fast and firm on all issues, even against their friends if that is what it takes to get an answer, and when it is all over the friends should still be friends with a greater respect for each other. Just like MJ. She was made a promise by the PRA President. She should not have to pursue an answer once asked but,If she lets it go, then go it will. Then there are those like Chuck who will support their friend to the end with nothing to support their position. They make an extra effort to try to embarrass and belittle others, and for what. I don't know. When people do things like that, it just makes me wonder what the are trying to hide and I'm tired of fighting a battle when there is nothing to gain and no one who cares. The members seem to be tickled to pink to be kept in the dark and I'm happy for them. I can go to a fly-in any where and have a good time whether or not the PRA has an Airport, a high or low membership, a web site, a TV show, or a Magazine. It's the people that make the fly-in's fun and meaningful, not PRA INC.

[jamiebodie]

Randy, don't confuse it, didn't get, not didn't like. Don't twist the truth.

Jamie

[C. Beaty]

MJ said:

I do Want Answer, but as you have said I am not getting any proof of any kind.
But that will not Stop me from trying.
I want to END this Once and For ALL, For ALL PRA MEMBERS.
I owe Sunstate Members that much.
Hey Tom Milton is there anywhere we can view the Documents we need to read and see for ourselves??
I like Mentone and the Airport would hate to every loss it if not a Gain for PRA Members.

MJ

Let me see if I can define contract for you, MJ.

Here is the definition of contract from the encyclopedia.

Contract

in the simplest definition, a promise enforceable by law. The promise may be to do something or to refrain from doing something. The making of a contract requires the mutual assent of two or more persons, one of them ordinarily making an offer and another accepting. If one of the parties fails to keep the promise, the other is entitled to legal recourse. The law of contracts considers such questions as whether a contract exists, what the meaning of it is, whether a contract has been broken, and what compensation is due the injured party. Copyright © 1994-2002 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc._

Futhermore, minors or lunatics can’t enter into contracts; there must have been no fraud or deceit and a contract can’t compel someone to do something illegal.

You are married to the Big Fish because the two of you entered into a marriage contract.

If you burn your marriage license, you’re still married.

If the courthouse burns down and all the records are destroyed, you’re still married. The spoken words of your marriage vows are enough.

When Gary Goldsberry, acting in his capacity as the president of PRA Mentone issued both spoken and written statements that the national PRA owns the Mentone airport without strings, that statement is a binding and legally enforceable contract.

If you’re looking for something printed on fancy paper with large gold letters stating: CONTRACT, with fancy curlicue scrollwork borders and a text containing a flock of Latin legal words, you may be disappointed. But it would be no more binding than a statement in plain, unambiguous English.

I sure wish you’d quit fretting over this nonsense.

[jamiebodie]

Chuck, like you I am not sure why they just don't put this issue to rest. However, I do feel that a year is more than enough time to actually produce the paper, not just the promise. If the words were truly good enough then why do we do we have written contracts? You know I promised them that I would pay for both my house and my car, but they still made me sign the papers. Perhaps they didn't have a dictionary?

Jamie

[GyroRon]

A verbal agreement is about useless in a court of law. True story, several years ago a friend and I were at Myrtle Beach for Spring break. As we drove down Ocean Blvd my friend spotted a girl he knew. We pulled over and picked her up. Turns out she was a Stripper at a popular club here in Charlotte... Anyway she and my friend went off in my truck and I took off on my bike for a few hours. When I got back they told me that by accident, she had screwed up and ruined my new Sony CD player. That is when she told me she was a Stripper, she told me she made hundreds of bucks a night and could just buy me a new one when we got back home. I asked her to make a verbal agreement between me and her with my friend Rudy as the witness. She agreed.

So we got back home and for a month straight I would call her and she would tell me she had no money. She put me off time after time and finally wouldn't return my calls. So I filed a lawsuit against her.

Our day in court arrives and we all show up for court and the judge hears my side of the story, my witness' side of the story and then hers. She says she didn't mess up my player and never promissed to fix or replace anything. The judge said with nothing written and signed between us my case was over and he told us that was it to get out of his court room.

Anyway kinda off topic but hey, it IS a true story and involved a real stripper!

[GyroRon]

Jamie I still would like to know how this past election was not per the by laws...

[C. Beaty]

Handshake contracts are enforceable in most places if there are witnesses.

But professional lending institutions must operate professionally.

A perfectly valid contract need be no more than a simple, handwritten statement on a sheet of plain paper written in ordinary English.

You have even entered into a binding contract when you bid for an item on Ebay and the seller accepts your offer although no paper has changed hands. If you later change your mind and don't cough up the amount bid, the seller has legal recourse. Generally doesn't because it's not worth the trouble and expense.

[KenSandyEggo]

I'm a little rusty on this, but for a contract to be enforceable, there has to be an exchange of value, as some sort of payment to enact it. I can promise my neighbor's kid $500 to mow my 10 ft. by 10 ft. lawn in front of 100 people and it is not enforceable. If I gave him a $50 downpayment, then it is. One exception is if the parties had done business previously......I think. A handshake contract can be enforceable, but there still has to be an exchange of something of value first? Why do you think car dealers insist on a downpayment first. No downpayment equals no contract no matter what papers are signed. Maybe if Counselor Holmes is lurking, he can clarify this.

[C. Beaty]

You're right for property to change hands, KJ. You often see the phrase: "For $1 and other good and valuable considerations."

I think in the case of the Mentone airport, it's simply a statement that the national PRA is the true owner.

[Rotornut]

LOL OK Chuck, as I bang my head on the desk. MJ :(

[GyroRon]

Chuck I am truely trying not to take sides on this matter cause I don't want to take sides. But it sounds like BS to me. If there is only a verbal agreement between the airport and the PRA via Gary G then just say so. I too would like to see this stuff done and over with but how hard is it to get to the bottom of something like this?

I think Glenn Bundy posted above and said to contact him if anyone has questions. I have never spoke to Glenn before, maybe someone out there that has will give him a call and let us know what you find out.

I want to over as bad as anyone else, but like Jamie and Maxie and MJ and others, I do not want to put it behind without all the info that has been requested.

[Heron]

One thing that has been overlooked is that the personal relationship Top Guys Jamie/Maxie/Dan is going down the drain, if it is not there already.
The one side other side BS is the worst.
If one side is happy, it should tell us why!
I know GG is not a stirper, but the ocasion makes the thief, many people does not know him enough to trust or not.
Maybe the issue is that they still playing safe with their money until they are in the clear and than paperwork will be presented.
There are many sides on this plot . . .I dont feel there's foul play.
Heron

[Rotornut]

Thank Tim, Printing this thread out to keep. MJ :)

[blackbird]

You have got to be kidding...You do not need a legal written contract for anything as important as an airport.....LOL

I am like Ron and have been watching the posts....Chuck, if Gary promises to make it so...ownership....then it must be.........Does he run his business this way, and like Jamie has said........pay his notes like this...home, car etc......

M.J. there must be NO papers regardless of liability.......My very well paid lawyers will attest to this fact.......Everyone MUST trust Gary and thats that.......I personally think all of the EXCUSES are B.S.....


I have swamp land in New Mexico............LOL.........Just tell the members that it is only GARY's word and that is all...........no documents.......

Next post and keep it safe.........

[madmax]

#116 09-04-2004, 06:59 AM
C. Beaty
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 282

You're right for property to change hands, KJ. You often see the phrase: "For $1 and other good and valuable considerations."

I think in the case of the Mentone airport, it's simply a statement that the national PRA is the true owner.





And all that has ever been asked for is to se that peice of paper!!!

If the court house burns down and MJ and Catfishes LIC. is burt up. Before it burnt, it was there for the world to see!!! Where is this one?