My personal Xenon experience

[ckurz7000]

With so much excitement about the Xenon I've kept my ears pricked to pick up any actual first hand flight reports in my vicinity. It's all nice and well to read a post on the net, but when it comes to forming an opinion, there's no substitute for personal experience.

So, with this in mind, I drove out to Fertöszentmiklos (LHFM) to test fly their Xenon. Here's what I experienced:

Xenon with Rotax 912 RST (122 PS continuously) and 8,4m rotor (that's 27.6 ft). Pilot and pax together weighed 397 lbs (I'm not going to break that down for you :-), the tank was 30% full.

Asphalt runway, 440 ft MSL, 10 kt wind straight on the nose. The prerotator works smoothly and gets the rotor up to about 250 rrpm within an acceptable time. Lift off was at about 60 mph and 350 rrpm. Full throttle climb out at best climb resulted in at most 200-300 ft/min. After working our way up to 700 ft AGL, I levelled off and throttled back to 5000 rpm as the oil temp had already reached 120 °C (250 °F). S/L I got about 75 on the ASI.

I couldn't trim it to hands off since we would still be nose heavy, and there was a decided tendency to drop the right "wing". The stick was absolutely vibrationless, handling was good for a machine that size. Nothing special about the landings and ground handling.

To me, the Xenon in the configuration described above felt extremely underpowered. Almost like an MT03 with 3 people on board :-). I wouldn't dare go on any kind of demanding cross country in mountainous areas with this machine. I just don't see how you could fly high enough and still have reserve power to get out of any severe sink situation and turbulence.

Alone, the Xenon handles like the MT03 with a passenger. OK but not too sprightly.

I've heard that people in the US fly the Xenon with larger rotors. Can anyone comment?

-- Chris.

[RotorTom]

My Xenon (the 912 RST) is flown in Denver, Colorado out of an airport at 5480 ft.. It lifts off the ground in about 100 feet or less and climbs out at 800 feet-per-minute or more. I easily cruise at 80 knots.

In Arizona (still not sea level) the Xenon climbed even better.

That's with two people at around 385 lbs. and full tanks!

In Denver I use the longer rotor.

The Xenon is anything but underpowered ... and that is without the latest modification to the turbo. Mike Bantum (the US Distributer in Florida) has added an inner cooler and adjustable waste gate (for better altitude compensation). He reports that the ship -- at 11,000 feet -- still wants to climb at 800 fpm.

I suggest that the RST you flew was either out of rig, the props were not pitched properly, the Rotax was not in sync or a combination of these factors.

I agree that "personal experience" is worth a lot ... but one ride does not constitute enough personal experience to evaluate the line of machines.

[dinoa]

Our experience with the 912S 100hp powered Xenon has been similar to Chris'. At max gross at sea level 30 deg C. we see about 200 ft/min max climb rate.

We usually limit cross country flying in the summer months to one up.

We are thinking of upgrading to the larger rotor and maybe 914 power.
Unfortunately the 912S has a higher compression ratio than the 912 and is not the engine of choice for converting to turbo.


Dino
Athens, Greece

[Dmorris]

I’ve flown all three Xenon models and tend to agree with Tom’s assessment.
The next opportunity I have I’ll shoot and post video of my panel “Xenon with a 914” starting at takeoff.

[ckurz7000]

Something's got to be out of whack in the one I flew. Tom, what size blades is your Xenon spinning? I got max of 39 inHg intake manifold pressure. The prop spins at over 5500 rpm just after releasing the breaks. This particular Xenon was set up and test flown -- and deemed fine to fly -- by Ralph (the designer) himself, according to Siebenhofer (the owner). Still, something's gotta be wrong with it. Or else I just can't believe that this is supposed to a machine people want to buy.

-- Chris.

[Resasi]

Chris that must have been pretty disappointing. It sounds as though you were experiencing a pretty anaemic performance and certainly not what one expects to hear after all the raves we have been getting from various forum members.

With Dinoa seeming to have a similar story it will be interesting to follow this and see where the problem lies.

[RotorTom]

I am flying with a 8.6m rotor. Carbs perfectly balanced, prop pitch at 15-degrees. My prop RPMs are around 5800 rpm at full power moving through the air (and 5650 static).

There are so many things that could contribute to your bad experience:


They did not "string" the rotor properly
Improper blade pitch on prop
Rotax carbs not synchronized
Inadequate air intake
Rudder not rigged for straight flight
inadequate tire pressure
cyclic-rods-control surfaces not aligned properly
Inadequate turbo cooling
Turbo waste gate not responding properly


I assure you, the Xenon has great power, climb and cruise. I run the owner's website and we share stories. The only ones that have had sub-standard performance have been ones with "problems". When operating properly there are not many gyros that can carry two people with the comfort, speed, efficiency and power of the Xenon.

[scandtours]

[(the US Distributer in Florida) has added an inner cooler and adjustable waste gate (for better altitude compensation). He reports that the ship -- at 11,000 feet -- still wants to climb at 800 fpm.




Maybe with stronger thermals it could perform even better.
Sorry, with out any exp. on Xenon gyros I have very diff. to believe that it can outperform even a jet helicopter.:confused:
Giorgos

[RotorTom]

And so we are all making this stuff up?

[birdy]

Tom, im not questioning your integrity, but wot have,inadequate tire pressure [ iv taken off with both mains flat as a bored, and it didnt make much difference at all to the TO roll] and cyclic-rods-control surfaces not aligned properly got to do with flyn performance?
And if his blades were 'out of string', he wouldnt have an absolutely vibrationless stick.

[troed@aon.at]

Just skyped with Raphael:

This particular XENON was NOT fine tuned by Raphael and was delivered in this state only because of urgence of the owner.

What still has to be done on this XENON:

1. Turbo has to be adjusted to 45 PSI instead of current 39/40
2. Prop pitch has to be decreased/adjusted to 5.800 rpm at T/O
3. Oil cooler has to be angled down for summer-conditions
(actually this is another geniuos solution: instead of covering the oil-cooler with power-tape in winter conditions You just set the cooler to a more flat angle. Oil Cooler was originally adjusted for 5°C ambient temp.)
4. Rotor has to be fine - tuned

Raphael is not happy with this delivery without his consent and will come down to LHFM-airport (:plane:) to make the perfect setup.

But maybe it is better in this setup for the time beeing since (except Andi Siebenhofer) we are all bloody XENON-beginners :yo:

Angelo

[RotorTom]

Tom, im not questioning your integrity, but wot have,inadequate tire pressure [ iv taken off with both mains flat as a bored, and it didnt make much difference at all to the TO roll] and cyclic-rods-control surfaces not aligned properly got to do with flyn performance?
And if his blades were 'out of string', he wouldnt have an absolutely vibrationless stick.

Sorry Birdy for being somewhat vague ... I was talking about overall performance -- takeoff roll and time to rotation would be affected by tires. And flying out-of-rig would affect cruise.

[birdy]

Fair enuff ;)

[ckurz7000]

There seems to be quite a range of performance observations going from a climb rate of 800 fpm still at 11000 feet and max gross to limiting cross country flights in the summer to one occupant.

Maybe it's different rotors that people are flying? Methinks that the 8.4m rotor is the standard one, right? At least one report in this thread was of an 8.6m rotor. What do others fly?

I don't think the lackluster performance I observed had anything to do with the rotor since the stick was vibrationless and rotor rpm were in the normal range as per the rotor tach (350 just prior to take off).

I did observe a manifold pressure of 39", which is a bit low compared to the specs. Still, it's 10" above ambient and should have netted at least 100 hp (from the unboosted 80 hp of the Rotax 912 S). And you can buy the Xenon with an unboosted 100 hp Rotax 912 ULS, so it stands to reason that it ought to fly reasonably well on those 100 horses.

The prop pitch couldn't have been completely out of whack since the prop turned above 5500 rpm. And smoothly at that (so no grave imbalance or pitch misalignment between blades).

As to carbs being out of synch. Doesn't the 912 RST have fuel injection?

Tires were well inflated.

The oil temperature problem does seem to be easily fixed by relocating the oil cooler so that it faces more into the air stream. No problem here.

The trim range needs to be extended so that it's possible to trim s&l even with 180 kg of live weight in the cabin.

Greetings, -- Chris.

[RotorTom]

I don't think the lackluster performance I observed had anything to do with the rotor since the stick was vibrationless and rotor rpm were in the normal range as per the rotor tach (350 just prior to take off).

I did observe a manifold pressure of 39", which is a bit low compared to the specs. Still, it's 10" above ambient and should have netted at least 100 hp (from the unboosted 80 hp of the Rotax 912 S). And you can buy the Xenon with an unboosted 100 hp Rotax 912 ULS, so it stands to reason that it ought to fly reasonably well on those 100 horses.

The prop pitch couldn't have been completely out of whack since the prop turned above 5500 rpm. And smoothly at that (so no grave imbalance or pitch misalignment between blades).

As to carbs being out of synch. Doesn't the 912 RST have fuel injection?

You should be getting well above 39"MP ... the 912 RST is NOT fuel injected and I have no idea what you are talking about being limited to a single occupant for cross country flight.

I can assure you based on observing and talking to actual Xenon owners that your experience is the "exception" and NOT the rule. Perhaps I can't tell you why ... but in my mind ... hours and hours of experience and observation (from actual owner-operators) beats one flight for evaluation purposes.

[ckurz7000]

You should be getting well above 39"MP ... the 912 RST is NOT fuel injected

Sorry, I assumed the 912 RST was fuel injected just as the 914 is. I couldn't find a carb heat in the cockpit and took that as confirmation of my assumption. But the engine took throttle changes in stride and without any hiccups, so it didn't sound like out of synch carbs to me.

and I have no idea what you are talking about being limited to a single occupant for cross country flight.

That comment came from post a previous post in this thread, Dino from Athens, Greece. He stated, that his Xenon's performance motivated him to impose a limit of one up on xc-flights during summer.

I can assure you based on observing and talking to actual Xenon owners that your experience is the "exception" and NOT the rule. Perhaps I can't tell you why ... but in my mind ... hours and hours of experience and observation (from actual owner-operators) beats one flight for evaluation purposes.

That may well be. I am not claiming otherwise and can just point to my own experience. When the Xenon has been checked out I will certainly fly it again and compare that to my previous experience. You can be sure that I'll report back no matter what the result.

Greetings, -- Chris.

[ScottTinnesand]

I am certainly not the highest time Xenon pilot but I do have 90+ hours of flying both the Xenon R and Xenon RST. I have flown them when they performed awful and when they performed wonderfully.

All of us (including the factory) have learned so much about fine-tuning and making changes/modifications to the Xenon to better the machine since last year. The great thing is that Raphael and the rest at the factory try their hardest to produce the best aircraft they can and they are still open to suggestions from their customers.

A few things on performance: maximum engine RPM does matter. If you are getting 5500 versus 5800 on takeoff, that's a lot of torque. Take a look at any engine power graph and you'll see that the line shoots almost straight up at the top end of the RPM band. That's where the power is...

Also, the airspeeds you fly makes a big difference. The pitot system is very crude, by design, and each Xenon owner needs to figure out their machine's exact MPRS. A very small change in pitch can make a big difference in climb performance.

Naturally, flying the Xenon solo always yields great performance. As 98% of my flying is giving dual instruction, I have experienced plenty of max gross weight flying in all conditions. I can assure you that the performance isn't great if the machine isn't set-up properly.

I don't have the time to go into the different blade lengths and stuff but I wanted to jump in here and let everyone know that the Xenon does perform very well when everything is right. Looking at where we are today versus one year ago is phenominal. It's only getting better and that's all you can ask for.

Scott

[dinoa]

Further to my previous post I can add the following:

The Xenon mentioned was a factory demonstrator purchased with about 12 hours on the clock.

The engine was checked by a Rotax mechanic including carb synch and compression.

Several prop pitch settings were tried from 5500 to 5800rpm static. The Rotax manual specifies 5800 max take off rpm for 5 minutes. It specifically prohibits exceeding 5800 rpm. A prop pitch producing 5700 rpm static (about the same as the factory setting) was chosen to provide a small margin for prop unloading during take off.

Coolant and oil temps were also in the red above 5500 rpm so the oil cooler was lowered, the left radiator plenum seals improved and the right radiator repositioned to the right of the oil cooler in free stream airflow which cured the problem.

If anyone has other ideas of how to improve the weak climb performance please come forward as it is frustrating to know the cure is out there. Rotor tweaking was also mentioned but the rotor runs perfectly smooth.


Dino

[ScottTinnesand]

Dino,

Let's take this discussion to the Xenon Owner's webpage. Contact Tom if you're not registered yet. tmartino@troubleshooter.com

There your discussion will be followed by all the owners and the ideas should flow.

Scott

[RotorTom]

I have contacted Dino by email and gave him a user name and password to www.xenonowners.com and I have also re-posted his experiences with the Xenon on our forum.

With dozens of owners from all over the world, we will likely get him some very good suggestions on improving his performance.

[ckurz7000]

XenonTom, please register me for the Xenon website. If the performance of the Xenon can indeed be imporived, I would be very interested in it and would like to learn more.

-- Chris.

[ckurz7000]

The Xenon on which I reported my flight experience in this thread has been serviced recently. The major change was to increase the turbo loading so that the maximum intake manifold pressure went up from 39 inHg to 42 inHg. This change did result in a significant performance increase so that now the Xenon feels like a very flyable machine. I can't be more specific yet but will be once I have had the chance to measure climb rate and cruise speed.

Greetings, -- Chris.

P.S.: XenonTom, are you ignoring me or don't you want to give me access to the Xenon website? If the latter, please say so.

[Resasi]

The absence of any answer makes me reluctant to ask the same.

Hung back at Wauchula should have been more aggressive in seeking info.

[ckurz7000]

P.S.: XenonTom, are you ignoring me or don't you want to give me access to the Xenon website? If the latter, please say so.

To a message of Xenon Tom to me, in which he inquired about my motives for wanting to join the website, I replied
that I was looking seriously into buying a Xenon and would like to learn more about it. After that....nothing.

Interesting information policy. What do Xenon owners discuss on their website that they don't want other interested people to know?

-- Chris.

[troed@aon.at]

UUhhhh........ You want to buy a XENON after having rigged up Your MT03 with VP-Prop ? How come ? Thought that You are convinced the MT03 is superior to all other Gyros ? Changed Your mind ?

Angelo

[Xenon-designer]

Hi everyone,

I would like to comment the machine in Hungary, as we went to service it, we found that the speedmeter and the variometer where not working, these are things that can happen from time to time, this is why the readfing was false in climb rate. We also found that the local flying conditions where far different than at our place. We anyway managed to rest that, and the machine was regarding conditions flying normally.
We are currently preparing an upgrade kit for higher temperatures and altitudes for RSTs.
I want to personnaly thanks all our supporters, as YES we are a team open minded, and we do our best to always improve our product.
I want to apoligize to not be able to write more in this forum, lack of time...

More later, greetings to all.

[RotorTom]

To a message of Xenon Tom to me, in which he inquired about my motives for wanting to join the website, I replied
that I was looking seriously into buying a Xenon and would like to learn more about it. After that....nothing.

Interesting information policy. What do Xenon owners discuss on their website that they don't want other interested people to know?

-- Chris.

Chris,

I am not ignoring you. I am simply choosing not to allow you access to our site. You see, it is a private site -- owned and operated by Xenon owners.

Frankly, what we discuss is none of your business. Topics include performance, modifications, safety, training and general ownership issues. We are not "hiding" anything. However, your attitude and suspicion, is precisely why we choose to keep the site private.

We are not interested in wild speculation and opinions from people without actual ownership experience. We are not interested in comparisons -- since we've already made our choice. We are not interested in controversy. We simply want to protect our investments and we want to get the best value out of them.

For all the "other stuff" we have this wonderful site.

Thanks for asking.

[ckurz7000]

UUhhhh........ You want to buy a XENON after having rigged up Your MT03 with VP-Prop ? How come ? Thought that You are convinced the MT03 is superior to all other Gyros ? Changed Your mind ?


Whatever made you think that? The point is that if I want to fly more with my wife, I have to be looking into an enclosed machine. So at the moment I am evaluating my options.

-- Chris.

[ckurz7000]

Chris,

I am not ignoring you. I am simply choosing not to allow you access to our site.

That's fine by me. I just would've preferred you'd have told me instead of not answering my message to you.

-- Chris.

[Xenon-designer]

Sir Chris,

i encourage you to contact one of our representatives , to get a demo ride, so you shall be able to make your own feeling. We are at production number 70, the machines are really fine, you have the choice between 4 models now. I will be honnored to count you as our exclusive customers, owning a Xenon is more than just a gyro, it is a philosophy of top design, luxury, personalisation...you shall fall in love of it. So if you want more than just a gyro...a Xenon here at the factory might wait for you.
Kindly,

[MIO]

Hi everyone,
If I would like to compare one machine's performance to other ones, I would first try to get reliable information about empty weight, payload, rotor disc, blade chord, airfoil, blade pitch, power and thrust of the engine, then estimate drag of the fuselage (less important at low speed). If this is done, you get a quite good estimation of the performances. Perhaps better than some information you might get from all the guys involved in merchandising of the gyro you want to evaluate. And: For this it's even not necessary to sit in or have a flight. No problem if VSI, ASI or other things don't work.
So why all this excitement? Look out for a balance. Generally that's a good start for solving these problems.

Michael

[ckurz7000]

i encourage you to contact one of our representatives , to get a demo ride, so you shall be able to make your own feeling. We are at production number 70, the machines are really fine, you have the choice between 4 models now.

Hi Ralph,

thanks for your kind invitation. I have flown a Xenon here in Hungary to give me a reasonable idea of what it can and can't do. According to my information this Xenon represents pretty much the top performance model, right? Since the manifold pressure of the turbo has been increased from 39 to 42 inHg, the Xenon's performance has improved. I will have to fly it some more to see how that feels to me.

There are some other enclosed 2-seater models in the pipeline at this time. The new Magni or the Austrian Arrowcopter, for example. Even HTC, the makers of the MT03, are designing such a machine. Before making a firm decision, I will have a look at those machines, too.

Apart from the machine's performance, it is important to me how openly the company communicates and how willing it is to implement improvements suggested by owners. Since Xenon operates a dedicated website, I was simply going to pay it a visit to see what kind of information there was and what kind of little improvements there have been made by owners. I had no intention to bad mouth or critisize. If you knew me, you'd know that I am not prone to these things and stand by my word.

Thank you, -- Chris.

[BigBen]

Raphael,
I have seen the Xenon at the last two Bensen and SunNFun events and loved the looks but sadly I did not get the opportunity to fly one. I have questions on the design vs. performance effects.

1. Is the horizontal stabilizer directly in line with the prop center or is it slightly below?
2. How does it handle the engine torque vs. the use of a tall tail on several others such as Sparrowhawk, Dominator, Sport Copter,etc?
3. Since the twin vertical rudders are outside of the prop stream, how does the aircraft handle at very low speeds as compared with the above mentioned above (where prop thrust can add to control)?

[ckurz7000]

I would like to know what size rotor blades people fly the Xenon with. Would be nice to get quick show of hands.

Regarding yaw stability: In my limited experience I found that the Xenon got more squirrely the faster you flew. What do other people say to this?

-- Chris.

[troed@aon.at]

1. Is the horizontal stabilizer directly in line with the prop center or is it slightly below?
2. How does it handle the engine torque vs. the use of a tall tail on several others such as Sparrowhawk, Dominator, Sport Copter,etc?
3. Since the twin vertical rudders are outside of the prop stream, how does the aircraft handle at very low speeds as compared with the above mentioned above (where prop thrust can add to control)?

Hi BigBen !

These photos should answer Your questions.

1. HS in line with prop center
2. counteracts engine torque to neutral
3. rudders are IN the prop stream.

Chris:

In MY humble experience the XENON flied like on railway tracks the faster I went. Maybe You had some downdrafts at that day ............:rolleyes:

[FliteTyger]

... Since Xenon operates a dedicated website...

Thank you, -- Chris.

Chris,

I'm not a Xenon owner (although it's on the short list), and don't really have a dog in this hunt, I think I see a misunderstanding here, and want to help if I can. I don't believe the Association of Xenon Enthusiasts (www.xenonowners.com) website is affiliated, owned or operated by Celier Aviation (http://www.celieraviation.eu/),the manufacturer.

It's my understanding the two are completely separate in organization, although with apparently good communication between the two. I believe the AXE site is run by, funded, and for Xenon owners themselves. Celier Aviation operates it's own site for the shopping experience.

Although I will say that a running list of modifications and other articles that I think would answer the questions you had were easily accessible under the Public Articles section of the AXE website.

Hope this helped!:yo:
Colby

[bones]

I would like to know what size rotor blades people fly the Xenon with. Would be nice to get quick show of hands.

Regarding yaw stability: In my limited experience I found that the Xenon got more squirrely the faster you flew. What do other people say to this?

-- Chris.

1. 6.8mt rotors

2. Wrong

[ckurz7000]

1. 6.8mt rotors


Do you really fly 6.8 m (22 feet) blades? I don't think they're even offered, the shortest ones being (I believe) 8.4 m.

[Gyro_Kai]

Hi BigBen !

These photos should answer Your questions.
......
3. rudders are IN the prop stream.



Hi Angelo,

actually, it was discussed here on several occasions, the prop stream diminishes very rapidly in diameter behind the prop. If you are not in the middle, especially on slow flight, you will not get much prop-stream.

You remember good old Bernoulli, fast airstream has less pressure, therefore the slower, surrounding air will push in.

Kai.

[Xenon-designer]

Thanks Angelo to answer correctly, i will place a slight precision : we push one inch under general CG to get proper positive action from engine action, it was asked by the German certification process, i have to admit that you can then fly the machine foot and hands off, want to climb just apply some power, don't touch joystick, and vice et versa...
Our tail design had in mind also to reduce as much as possible the engine torque effect, and only big high tails or double ones like ours can help for that. But high tail have very poor momentum...

The rudders are somehow in the stream of the prop but for only 50 % about, this to avoid any reverse effect in case of engine out, the Xenon keeps absolute perfect control and this at ANY speed. It took me long time of designing to come to that point.
I will not here critisize other designs... We just believe in what we do as it is deeply tested and re-tested...the result ? the Xenon is probably the easiest and forgiving gyro available.
Mark reversed the data for the rotor, we have 3 sizes : 8,4 / 8,6 / 8,8 m.

The website Xenon owners is totally independent from us. We as the manufacturer will always do our best to keep listening and open minded, with the best communication as possible. Still nobody is perfect.

Please to all pilot and anthousiasts, try not bomb me with questions, i have lack of time to be often here, as you know i am quite busy doing research and devolpments...

For the US market, please contact Mike Bantum / Randy / Scott Tinnessand.
Thanks to all.

[bones]

Do you really fly 6.8 m (22 feet) blades? I don't think they're even offered, the shortest ones being (I believe) 8.4 m.

Sorry yes i typed the right numbers wrong order :help: i fly a 8.6mt rotor ;)

[GyroRon]

Chris,

I am not ignoring you. I am simply choosing not to allow you access to our site. You see, it is a private site -- owned and operated by Xenon owners.

Frankly, what we discuss is none of your business. Topics include performance, modifications, safety, training and general ownership issues. We are not "hiding" anything. However, your attitude and suspicion, is precisely why we choose to keep the site private.

We are not interested in wild speculation and opinions from people without actual ownership experience. We are not interested in comparisons -- since we've already made our choice. We are not interested in controversy. We simply want to protect our investments and we want to get the best value out of them.

For all the "other stuff" we have this wonderful site.

Thanks for asking.

Maybe I missed out on some other reason ( trash talking Xenons? ) why you would not allow him access to your site.... but refusal to let him participate on it sounds real crappy to me.

[troed@aon.at]

actually, it was discussed here on several occasions, the prop stream diminishes very rapidly in diameter behind the prop. If you are not in the middle, especially on slow flight, you will not get much prop-stream.

Hi Kai !

Just place yourself 5-8 m behind a gyro that runs at idle and feel the airstream ........

Should be enough for the rudder to work properly.

Anyway, from my flying experience with the XENON I can tell You: the rudder is VERY sensitive and direct in every flight sit. Sharp turns work comparable to the MT03.

Angelo

[ScottTinnesand]

Maybe I missed out on some other reason ( trash talking Xenons? ) why you would not allow him access to your site.... but refusal to let him participate on it sounds real crappy to me.

It's a Xenon owners website. No secrets, no hidden agenda just a webpage dedicated to Xenon owners. It's that simple.

On a personal note, I prefer having a place where Xenon owners can exchange information world-wide without having any Tom, Dick or Harry (no reference to/or offense to Tom Milton, Dick Goddard or Harry Sieckmann - all whom I like very much) throw their .02 cents in. This forum is perfect for that. Everyone should have a place where they can "meet" individuals with the same interests or hobbys and keep it focused and private (if they choose).

Scott

P.S. Sorry for the attemped Sunday morning humor Tom, Dick and Harry....

[dick]

P.S. Sorry for the attemped Sunday morning humor Tom, Dick and Harry
No worries mate, it's all good and understood...........Dick

[RotorTom]

Maybe I missed out on some other reason ( trash talking Xenons? ) why you would not allow him access to your site.... but refusal to let him participate on it sounds real crappy to me.

I really hope I did not come off "crappy". Did not mean to. XenonOwners.com is similar to many other "owners" sites ... dedicated to a specific aircraft.

In all of those sites you must be an owner to gain access to the "private area".

Actually our private area is boring ... it deals with upgrading oil coolers and where to mount them, better fuel filtering, a new filler neck for refueling, flying tips and other day-to-day operational stuff. With any aircraft there are countless issues that come up regarding owning and operating the machines.

I don't care if people "trash talk" about the Xenon. It is an object ... not my wife. But the purpose of the owners' site is simply to maximize our ownership experience.

BTW ... If anyone is seriously in the market for a Xenon, I don't know any owner who would not openly and honestly discuss any issue. Just ask.

[troed@aon.at]

Another two XENONs arrived down in Hungary: a red one with 8.6m Rotor and a yellow one with 8.8m Rotor.

Both have incorporated the improvements developed and tested by the XENON-owners-group (double oil cooler, Turbo-Air-Intake under the cabin)

Although I did not have the chance to fly them they had a nice looking performance from the ground even compared to the open gyros.

Weather conds where challenging: 34 °, 80% humidity, must be somehow like in SA...............

We´re awaiting one XL-version this year........

Angelo

[Resasi]

Wonder what speed weight penalty is paid for the tundra tires on the custom Reindeer mustering Xenon they made for Norway?

The tires and floor windows would be nice additions for operating in slightly rougher country, but was wondering why the reinforced doors.

Posting it here on this thread as this seems to be running.

[PTKay]

... but was wondering why the reinforced doors.


The reinforced doors are standard on all 2008 models, as well as the windows...
(the older doors had the tendency to fall out on uncooridinated turns when no special fix was used)

[Greg Mitchell]

PTKay are you joking about the doors falling out in flight?

How come Rob Dubin is not listed as a primary contact?

Mitch.

[RotorTom]

PTKay are you joking about the doors falling out in flight? Mitch.

Its no joke. It happened several times. It seems the original lightweight doors and nominal latches were not secure enough to use during flight.

The had 2 engineers analyze my door failure and this is what they concluded:

"The air over the door surfaces create an area of lift (low pressure), while the snap vents in the doors create high pressure within the cabin. When the aircraft is traveling in a straight flight path, the inside pressure (from the vents) and the outside lift on the doors maintain an equilibrium (because equal air is entering both vents). But when turning, more air enters in the vent on the opposite side of the turn (for example, if you are turning right, more air enters the left vent). This increased airflow coming in from the right, combined with the lift over the left door, create an unstable condition. The door on the side of the turn bows out and flys away."

The new doors have a rigid frame, thicker Plexiglas and a three point latching system. They are rock solid!

[RotorTom]

How come Rob Dubin is not listed as a primary contact?

Rob is not listed as the primary contact because he and Raphael had a "falling out". They disagreed on how to handle certain business issues.

Rob is still strong Xenon supporter and still owns one.

[Resasi]

My questions on the 'Reindeer' machine have been answered. Seems that was the cloak for the XL project. Having returned and with fast internet download am catching up with the whole leap forward with the new 3 seat machine.

Will the new XL have the capability of flying with the doors off?

[Greg Mitchell]

Thanks Tom.

Mitch.

[Xenon-designer]

Hi,

Yes, the Xenon XL can fly doors off.
Xenon XL can of course be bought and used as and with 2 seats, plus huge extra room... for your dog... but is it then an extra passenger ???
We are currently preparing the Platinum edition of our Xenons, full carbon (minus 20 kg) and full options.
We are also preparing new sets of floats, metallic construction with doubld step... more in october.

[NC_Scott]

Hello everyone,

I am looking to get into sport piloting with a gyrocopter and from what I have researched the Xenon is one of the nicest gyros around. From what I see at their website they are not cheap but I came across one for a fraction of the cost. Its suppose to be complete with a Hirth F-30ES 105 hp and new rotors. They claim there was a small accident where the tip of the rotor made contact with the ground on a low flight turn. They also claim everything was repaired.

Its listed as a 2006 model but was sent over from France as a kit and put together by an ex US military copter pilot in 2007. From what I read they were not back then available as kits or even today, this is the first thing that makes me say... hmmmm
Also the price is less than 1/3 of what they go for new. Second hmmmm
Its located outside of Las Vegas, I figured since the US community of Xenon owners is not that big someone here probably knows about it and can give me some info if its legit or not!

p.s. I live south of Raleigh NC. does anyone know where I can get gyro flight lesson that would be near me. From what I gathered from other sites there are 2 guys in S.C and 1 in VA. but nobody in N.C.??

Thanks and look forward to any help and becoming a long time member here!
Scott

[Xenon-designer]

ATTENTION everyone, CELIER AVIATION is releasing a brand new website, same URL : www.celieraviation.eu lots of articles and new fonctions. 3 New models are also in the tube, they will be released in spring time.

We are proud to annonce also that the factory is well growing, total employees is now 25, and a brand new factory is under construction on our private airfield, near by our actual building. This new place is 3000 square meters, plus 700 sqm of offices, plus shop, plus petrol station, plus hotel 5 stars with multiservices for GA and gyros of course.

Production goes well and stable with 3 / 4 machines a month, but it shall increase soon with the new facility. The Xenon XL (3 seats) gets its success, many are on order book.

We have also completed the new ASTM standards with the mutual collaboration with Greg Reminger, and got the FAA positive answer. We are now all waiting patiently that the FAA will release this new protocol. It has been a long lasting procedure, we spent here 1560 hours to prepare the ASTM. But as at CELIER Aviation we are totally dedicated to professionalism, we did not spare any energy and money to fullfill it. Quality and safety first.

As soon as it becomes again possible to imports our wonderful machines, we shall re-activate the distributor network. We shall be pleased to welcome new interested person in the group.

We have developped new technologies since, and USA pilots will be pleased to see that.
We are more than ever dedicated to gyros. More simple and more affordable models are in preparation...Wait and see...

To all our Xenon users, fans, enthousiasts, we say thanks, and see you soon in the USA skies !!
Raphael CELIER

[ms80831]

Since the title of this thread is "my personal Xenon Experience” , I thought I would add mine.

Disclosure: I (now) own a Xenon, but otherwise have no financial or other interest in the sale or service of this product. My observations are as unbiased as any owner/ operator of any product can be. (Mostly but not totally, after all, I did buy one.)

Shortly after Christmas 2009, I flew to sunny central Florida to inspect and demo a used Xenon RST for sale by Phil Dunn. Phil lives in the Aero Acres airpark in Port St Lucie Florida.
( http://www.floridaairporthomes.com/aero%20acres.php ).

What a thoroughly enjoyable experience. Phil, his friends and neighbors were all friendly, helpful, in fact, I could write an entire page on these great people. But this is about the Xenon.

Many months ago, some wrote in this thread about disappointing performance with this model of Xenon.

That WAS NOT my experience.

I am a big guy (over 6’ 1”, and 250 lbs.)

On my first flight in 9MB, I could not believe the performance. Temp 62 degrees F. Over 580 lbs. of passengers, stuff, and fuel. 300 to 400 feet ground run, 800 feet per minute to over 1000 ft AGL. Cruise 85 knots indicated, and confirmed by GPS. Top speed, over 100mph.

SOLO- (Around 300 lbs. payload) Holy Cow !! Over 1000 FPM, sustained to over 2500 AGL, where I got bored and did a power off decent back to the runway. On normal take offs, I had to back WAAAY off the throttle.

After 10 hours in this machine, My conclusion: The RST model has plenty of power (when properly set up.)

I have yet to fly this aircraft on a hot summer day in Colorado Springs, and don’t expect this performance at that D/A. (My home airport elevation is 6874 MSL.)

But the test conditions above were similar to the conditions when I have test flown other makes and models. Most of my Gyro flight experience has been below 4000 MSL, with most less than 1500 MSL, so in comparison to other gyros I have flown, there is no comparison.

The Xenon RST “TurboCopter” is a great performing 2 place Gyro.

[bones]

Yep this is about normal, myself 224lb and a 302lb passenger, with half fuel on a 40*C day we were getting 400' climb only using 5300rpm, this is one powerful motor my friends.

[ckurz7000]

Since I was the author of the original post about the lackluster performance of the Xenon RST I flew, I think a comment is warranted at this point.

First, I tried to be as objective as possible when describing my first experience in the Xenon RST. Its performance was definitely below par. Something must be different between the Xenon I flew and the ones other people are commenting about. I suspect it is the turbo boost pressure. Also, the oil cooler must have been relocated since, because we weren't able to go full bore any length of time due to overheating. The Xenon I flew was one of the first RST models available. Maybe Celier has made some significant improvements since?

So I would have to retake a flight in a Xenon RST in order to see what changed. Once I have done so, I'll post here again.

-- Chris.

[ms80831]

Chris Wrote: ..." So I would have to retake a flight in a Xenon RST in order to see what changed. Once I have done so, I'll post here again.-- Chris..."

Fair enough Chris.

And Yes, a lot of changes and improvements have been made by the US AXE users group members, many adopted by the factory.
The biggest problem I faced was getting the temperature high enough for take off. (A long run up). Even after multiple full power climbs to altitude, the temps were well below the high end of the NORMAL operating range. Those twin radiators and large oil cooler are almost too much cooling in cold climates in winter and must be partially covered.

BTW - I still have the news report of your visit to our area posted on our Airports website at: www.MeadowLakeAirport.com Sorry I missed your last visit. I hope to meet you some day.

[ventana7]

Mark,

I am really not sure of what mods were done on that Xenon by the previous owner so this may not apply. The original machines had the oil cooler mounted on two aluminum rails and they were held in posiion by 6 heavy duty tie wraps so they could be slid up or down into the windstream depending on the season.
I flew mine in both warm and cold temps and it worked fine once positioned properly.

Rob