I Did It....ordered an IVO CAP

[KenSandyEggo]

I just ordered an IVO cockpit adjustable prop to try out. They have a 30 day return policy, so I'll need to get it on quickly and wring it out. I think I'm becoming one of those guys that I used to harass.....spend more time fiddling with their planes than flying them. My goal for the IVO is to cruise under 4,000 rpm. If not, back it goes....unless I like it immensely for other reasons, like a fantastic climb-rate.

I did some checking on a Soob newsgroup, and the come-backs were pretty positive. They had some bubble problems with their blade molds about 13 years ago, but no problems since. Not quite as efficient as the NSI, but about half the price and I don't have to worry about or deal with Lance. A major blade-wobble problem came up for a guy in Europe, and sure as s**t, he couldn't get hold of Lance. When he finally did, Lance told him it's normal and just keep an eye on it. Most of the posters told him he's nuts if he even taxies with it that way. It was a fore-aft wobble and slightly more on one blade than the other and he could see signs of chafing near the hub. Now he might have caused it by improper torqueing, but I'd expect not to have to start a manhunt to get hold of the manufacturer and I'd expect a better answer than he got.

[mceagle]

Ken,
Keep us informed how the prop works. What model IVO blades are used?

From experience with the cockpit adjustable NSI prop, it pays to order the cockpit pitch readout accessory. Is such a thing available from IVO? There can be many situations that will require quick adjustment to the best climb pitch setting.

[KenSandyEggo]

Tim, IVO has an Ultralight, Medium and Magnum model. After going back and forth, it was decided the 3-bladed Medium would work best. The Magnum is for up to 700 h.p., and I haven't quite gotten there yet.

I don't know about "quick" in a gyro. I don't think they have a readout, but I'm not sure. They do have a constant-speed module for 300 bucks additional. Wouldn't you just go to the max climb pitch if you needed to climb spritely? It's a rocker switch, similar to power windows.....one way for course pitch and the other way toward fine pitch. I think the whole cycle can be done in 5 seconds, if I recall.

[mceagle]

The trouble is knowing where max climb pitch is. Max cruise pitch is somewhat more than max climb pitch, and minimum pitch on the NSI was in the minus range, giving you reverse. I guess the IVO wouldnt go that far so you could set the minimum pitch for max climb.
A quick transition to max climb pitch from cruise pitch could be handy in an aborted landing.
I am very interested in the results of your testing with this prop. Keep us informed.

[KenSandyEggo]

The IVO won't go Beta, so wouldn't max climb be at one end of the spectrum and max cruise at the other? You can add spacers to limit max and min pitch angles. Wouldn't one go to max climb pitch anyway before landing? Maybe in the middle. I don't know. I'll play with it.

[automan1223]

Ken, looks like you got it made,.....


great gyro,

beautiful women harass you at your hangar....

you got time to test every product out there.

Keep up the good work.

Jonathan


what rotor blades have you run on your ship and which ones do you have now ?

[KenSandyEggo]

I don't know what I'm going to do when my license arrives in the mail any day now and I have to go get a job. Yikes. If we could get 4 thousand people to send me a dollar a month, or 2,000 2 bucks a month, I could probably go on without working and just continue playing around with everything.

[KenSandyEggo]

A fellow "Rat" at the airport said I should get a manifold pressure gauge for the IVO electric prop. I see them in the Spruce catalogue, but how do you hook them up? He said it will prevent "lugging" the engine, like driving uphill in a car in 4th gear. Would it be useful on a cockpit controllable-pitch prop? Anyone know about this? I've never had one.

[KenSandyEggo]

Jonathan, I originally had RAF blades and could never get a smooth ride out of them, even after extensive electronic balancing by a pro. Once they started cracking, I got rid of them and bought Sportcopters. They are extremely smooth...hop and shake-free. I now also have the double-bearing head and towers by AAI.

[KenSandyEggo]

Tim, the IVO prop can be adjusted from 90 degrees, which I guess would be totally flat, to 30 degrees for cruise. Like I said, each parameter can be adjusted with washers. I'm assuming they're measuring from the thrust line. I'm sure there will be some suggestions in the manual of where to start. I'd guess that I would adjust take-off for around 5400-5500 engine rpm and get all the horsepower the EJ-22 has, instead of the 5100 I turn with the Prince.

[lanichol]

Ken,

I see a constant speed governor for sale on the IVO web page.
Do you know how that would work?


Variable pitch from web page: http://www.ivoprop.com
"Pilot controls the pitch through the toggle switch mounted in the cockpit. Pressing the toggle switch one way sends electric current through the graphite brushes to the slip rings and finally to the electric motor."

The toggle switch seem a little antique without a visual feedback. Surely there is some method with a variable resistor to tell the angle of the blade.
I guess rpms, sound and airspeed is the best we can do.

With fuel injection, there should be some way to get feed back from the computer as to fuel comsumption. I know people can program the cmos chips for performance and there are after market computers for racers. It would seem we could optimise the fuel mixture and pitch for cruising for minimum fuel consuption. I also assume the sub engine would have an optimum rpm per a specific load and speed, for max fuel economy.

Lots of questions.

Larry




http://www.ivoprop.com/constant.htm
Constant Speed Electronic Governor
Converts In-Flight Adjustable IVOPROP into the constant speed propeller.
Plugs into existing wiring harness.
Size only 2" x 4" by 1"

[KenSandyEggo]

Larry, I don't have a computer with my F.I. I have an aftermarket Airflow Performance setup and it's all mechanical except for the 2 fuel pumps. It supposedly automatically compensates for altitude, but does have a mixture control if you want to fiddle with it. Seeing as my altitude normally doesn't vary that much, I chose not to and just safety-wired it in the full-rich position. It's busy enough around here when flying without placing my concentration on further leaning. I'd rather concentrate on looking outside.

I kind of slid over the constant-speed module when I talked to them. All I recall the tech saying was that it has a switch to disconnect it if you don't like what it's doing. I guess I should have asked more, but I guess as long as I didn't feel like he was pushing it, I was going to save 300 bucks....for now, anyway.

I think the simplicity with the switch will be O.K. All I want is max power on take-off and then the most economical cruise setting I can get. I mean, once I lift off, I only climb about 500-1000 feet and then level off most of the time. I never do any sustained climbs except when crossing the mountains eastward. I only did that once when going to AAI and then it's a gradual cruise-climb anyway to 4500 feet.

[GyroRon]

Ken I predict that you will not see under 4000 rpms at cruise with this prop without lugging the engine. You really should look into a Manifold Pressure Gauge.

[KenSandyEggo]

Will do. But I'll wait until I get the prop and manual and see if they mention anything about adding one. Is the lugging still a factor with the 2.1 to 1 reduction belt? I guess so, but I'm not up on this stuff. 4,000 rpm hardly seems like lugging, but I guess I'm not aware of the dynamics here.

[PW_Plack]

Unless you're running a really hairy aftermarket cam, you won't be lugging any car engine at 3800 RPM. Isn't that about where the Soob makes max torque?

[KenSandyEggo]

I dunno. Someone else help out.

[CLS447]

Ken, I was thinking that you could set the low end ( min pitch ) for best climb, but I think I would set it at even less than that for prerotating. I would set max pitch for best cruise & no more, why lug it?

Then I would use my tach to determine best climb, simple!

I love those return policies, it shows faith in their products. I wish Prince could do that! If it works out that the IVO seems better than the Prince, then you have saved me alot of time & money. I would be glad to send you a buck or two!

I run an IVO on my 447 AC & I really like it ! IVO tried to sell me that system for my new machine but I didn't want to spend the money at the time, so I just bought a 68" 3-blade Warp for $600.

What amount of pitch is your EJ-22 spinning at what RPM on the Warp?

[KenSandyEggo]

Let's see, I think I have 12 degrees on my warp and she'd spin at, 5,100 engine rpm. The Prince spins maybe 50 rpm faster, but the added take-off thrust and increased climb-rate is subjectively noticeable. Both cruise at about the same rpm. The Prince seems to give a little more speed in cruise though, but this is also subjective.

Chris, how is prop-pitch relative to prerotating? I'm not clear on that.

[rfi]

Ken J.
Make sure you have at least four inches of clearance between the tips of the prop and the radiator. The Ivoprop blades are quite flexible and flutter a lot at idle. The company recommends the 4 inches of clearance.

[CLS447]

Ken, the more power I can feed in, the faster I can prerotate. Right? The less pitch on my prop, the more power I can add before my brakes stop holding me back.

Maybe your brakes hold you back all the way up to 4000rpm+ . Mine don't!

Basically....... prerotate without thrust.

[KenSandyEggo]

I took a look today, Don, and it looks like I'll have plenty of clearance.

Chris, I was turning the 205 rpm at less than 2,000 engine rpm, so I doubt that I'd ever have to get near 4,000. My brakes hold fine at 2,300+. Too much power, especially too quickly begets slipping.

[KenSandyEggo]

Here are pics of the hub parts and the new Ivo blades.

[KenSandyEggo]

Here are the blades. They look nice with the protective leading edge. I have to figure how to mount the toggle switch near my throttle handle.

[CLS447]

Oh man, that looks nice! Godspeed Ken! Can't wait for your report.

[KenSandyEggo]

As I'm leaving the airport today, I pass an open hangar and see a Kitfox with what looks like an IVO prop on it. I stop to shoot the baloney and it is one.....with the electric pitch control, no less. Happened to be the small one. Mines the middle one. He says he has about 50 hours on it and he loves it. So that was good to hear. He's running a Rotax 912. He had his from the get-go, but other Kitfoxers who use the same prop, said they picked up at least 10 m.p.h. on the top end.

[CLS447]

C,mon Ken quit flying around death valley & get that prop on! :eek: 30 days , remember!

I have this feeling that you won't be returning it! If I use your name, maybe I can get a discount on the second one! :D

What is the max HP on the medium model ?

Oh BTW, on my 60" GA Ivo, my S.S. leading edge tape started lifting. So I ended up peeling it off. It was buzzing. Don't they make it with real metal leading edge?

[KenSandyEggo]

Mine, the "Medium," is rated "around" 100 h.p. for direct drive and more with a reduction drive. They don't say exactly how much more. But the one I looked at last night on the Kitfox is the "Ultralight" model. That thing with the 912 must weigh at least as much as mine. "Ultralight" is rated to 100 h.p. The largest one, the "Magnum is rated to 700 h.p. Check this guy out who stuffed in a Corvette engine and uses the "Magnum." http://predatoraviation.com/index.html

As far as I know, all they have is the tape. There are instructions on their website on how to replace it.

[rfonseca]

I do not know if they changed the system but I had a set of flight ajustable Ivo props in a Savannah airplane and needed to change the metalic paper used to protect the leading edge of the blades every five to ten hours. If it is the same system, buy plenty of those papers and keep them handy.

[gyropilot]

I do not know if they changed the system but I had a set of flight ajustable Ivo props in a Savannah airplane and needed to change the metalic paper used to protect the leading edge of the blades every five to ten hours. If it is the same system, buy plenty of those papers and keep them handy.
Better yet, buy a bulk roll of 2" wide stainless steel foil to make your own and save money!

I run an Ivoprop on my GyroBee and typically replace the self-adhesive stainless steel leading edge tape once per flying season. Pre-cut replacement strips cost somewhere between $5.00 to $8.00 each. A 54 foot long roll of the equivalent stainless steel tape is $41.03 + shipping from McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/), yielding a cut-it-yourself cost of only about $1.00 per strip. Once at the McMaster-Carr web site, search for part number 76055A672.

I also use small strips of this same material applied on top of the leading edge tapes to balance the prop.

Regards,

John L.

[KenSandyEggo]

Install is started. I mounted the control switch and circuit-breaker reset button next to the throttle. I went to a friend that has an architectural sign shop and found a piece of rectangular aluminum that fit my measurements for the switches and bolts that hold my throttle to the sidewall. After it was cut, he asked me if I wanted to polish it up, as it looked really bad. He put a buffing pad on his big drill-press, gave me some polishing rouge to put on the pad and I spent about a 1/2 hour buffing it out. I ran the wires out the back of the mount. The hookup is really simple with 4 wires...pos, neg and 2 wires to the brushes at the prop. Main thing to figure is how to mount the brushes. A piece of aluminum channel may work for this too, hanging from the 2 bottom bolts of the plate behind the small pulley. That should get it pretty close to where it needs to be. Here are a few pics.

[KenSandyEggo]

Number two.

[KenSandyEggo]

Number three.

[KenSandyEggo]

The last one.

[CLS447]

Looking good so far Ken! Go man, Go!

We were wondering, What happened to your stock RAF throttle assembly? Do you still have dual throttles?

Are you gonna bolt on that prop today?

[KenSandyEggo]

No, it wouldn't work with my FI setup. I had to get a solid cable (Morse). I forgot who I gave it to......or I used the parts for fabricating "stuff." Adding a second throttle is on my list of things to "get around to." The throttle-body even has a separate arm on the other side of it so it'd be pretty straight forward without messing with the throttle on there now. The one you see in the pics is a Beech-hurst (sp?). It's a very nice unit, but the price was a total rip IMO. I don't remember what I paid for it, but I was in a hurry and it fit what I was looking for, so I paid an outrageous price for it.

I wasn't going to mess with the prop until next week, because I was going to fly to another airport on Monday to drop someone off. Looks like that fell through, but I won't know for sure until this afternoon. So it looks like I won't do it until Monday anyway. I'll probably spend a day fabricating something to hold the brushes against the pickup rings.

[KenSandyEggo]

Monday, Shmunday. I decided to start today on the install at the prop end. Trouble is, I wasted most of the day because I decided to change my prerotator belt. I tried removing the small pulley plate, but that #$@&!* wouldn't hardly budge. A quick call to the poor tech that Jim makes work on Saturday let me know that they Lok-Tite the stuff in.

I had a heck of a time turning the belt-loosening nut because #1 it was slightly stripped from 5-6 years of unintentional abuse, even after I unloosened all the necessary bolts and nuts. The tech also told me to look real close under the edge of the starter ring and I'd see one more bolt that needs to be loosened and is very difficult to get a wrench on. Yup...it was. Big nut still wouldn't budge, so I took the techs other suggestion. I unscrewed the allen-bolts that hold the small pulley on. I also unloosened the GIANT nut that holds the big pulley on. I finally slipped the drive belt off and replaced the small belt. Whew! Then I put everything back together. The majority of my knuckles were NOT bleeding.

So I didn't have much time for the new prop. Here's a pic of as far as I got, which is not very far. Mama's going to L.A. tomorrow, so I will spend Sunday seeing if I can finish up the prop mount.

[CLS447]

Thanks Ken, Looks like you had the same type of day I did!
I wish you the best luck on coming up with a brush mount, looks like it could be a slight challenge.

Your pic just gave me another possibility for mounting my new radiator. Thanks

Did Jim want you to change your radiator or did you have to? Those Griffin(?) rads are nice & big, how do you like it? Do you hold more coolant now? Are you temps lower?
What did you do with your RAF rad?

I went to the IVO site yesterday, It's Warp that has the nickel inlayed leading edge,sorry.

Were there color options for the prop?

Did you consider a 2 blade med. or magnum?

Other than the brush mount, does it look like it will be a bolt on deal?

Do they make a spinner cap to cover the drive motor? I didn't take note.

Sorry about all the questions but I am really interested in this one. I hope it works out for you.

Now about the Prince, What is the bolt size & pattern for the hub? Maybe we can work something out!

[KenSandyEggo]

Did Jim want you to change your radiator or did you have to? Those Griffin(?) rads are nice & big, how do you like it? Do you hold more coolant now? Are you temps lower?

No, I just wanted better quality. A radiator held together with pop-rivets doesn't exude my confidence, although it's worked pretty well. The new one is great. After flying, the bottom half of the radiator is cool to the touch. I don't know about the coolant. I'm sure it holds a little more. I just filled her up and didn't note how much I put in. The temp has never gone over about 182, even when I was mostly idling for over an hour on a 90s day while messing with the prerotator.


What did you do with your RAF rad?

It's on the floor.


I went to the IVO site yesterday, It's Warp that has the nickel inlayed leading edge,sorry.

Were there color options for the prop?

Black, coaldust, lights-out or ebony. ;)

Did you consider a 2 blade med. or magnum?

I have the 3-blade medium after talking with the tech. Magnum is overkill and the mount is very complicated.

Other than the brush mount, does it look like it will be a bolt on deal?

Yes.

Do they make a spinner cap to cover the drive motor? I didn't take note.

Someone else does and they sent a brochure with the prop. I'll wait until I'm sure I'll keep it.

Sorry about all the questions but I am really interested in this one. I hope it works out for you.

Now about the Prince, What is the bolt size & pattern for the hub? Maybe we can work something out!

It's an SAE 1 (Continental, I believe). O.K., you have first dibs if I sell it, which I probably will if I like the IVO. I'll keep the old Warp as my stand-by. 5/8th on the bolts? But I'm not positive. They're the same as the IVO.
__________________

[KenSandyEggo]

Well, I found out today that 7 inches is not long enough and is unsatisfactory. The bolts that came with the IVO (what did you think I was talking about, pig?) were way too short, not taking into account the prop-mounting plate used with the reduction gear. I lamented for awhile and remembered that the Prince bolts were much longer. I slipped one washer over the bolt and put it through everything and it came flush with the back of the prop plate. Drat! I need to get 7 3/4" bolts for it to work. I hope IVO has them and will trade mine out. Otherwise, I'm afraid that those things are going to be expen$ive.

Here are 4 pics from today. First one shows the install of one blade, then with 3 blades, one of it in place but obviously not bolted down, and a side view.

Well, for some reason the "Manage Attachments" button is not working, so I'll have to add the pics later. Toooooood!! It's been almost 2 hours and it's still not working. Anyone else try posting a photo? Maybe we burned up Todd's allocation of space for photos for this year....maybe even next year too.

[KenSandyEggo]

Here are the 3 blades installed on the hub.

[KenSandyEggo]

Mounted on gyro...sort of.

[KenSandyEggo]

Side view of hub.

[KenSandyEggo]

Broomstick in the spokes. The bolt company that has long bolts available is out of stock on 7.75" bolts. 5 to 10 days for delivery, so no IVO tryout for a little while. None of the usual companies like A-S, Wag-Aero, Chief, etc. stock anything close to this long. I'm using Genuine Aircraft Hardware in central California. IVO doesn't either. Over 20 bucks EACH!! :eek:

[GyroRon]

Try true value hardware.... Or Home Depot. It is just bolts right?

[GyroRon]

in all seriousness, if your using standard thread bolts, why not use Grade 8 from the local hardware store?

[KenSandyEggo]

I just feel better using the AN bolts, especially for something as critical as a prop. Call me a wild and crazy guy, but that's how I feel.

[CLS447]

Ken, I feel the same way. I would use nothing but AN hardware. Did you try Spruce?

How much of this length is due to the RAF redrive hub? Any ideas for the brush holder yet?

Thanks to that pic of yours, I came up with a real slick way to mount my rad. Probably gonna take the rest of the week of spare time! I want to take my new gyro to the airport for my next EAA meeting Mon. night, finished or not.

[GyroRon]

I understand, although I believe the grade 8 bolts are stronger. And cheaper of course! A good bit - maybe over 75 percent - of the hardware on the Dominator is grade 8. there is little AN hardware on a Dominator, Even the bolts in the rotorhead are grade 8.

[KenSandyEggo]

I appreciate your input Ron, but I just feel more comfortable wih the AN stuff. Isn't the big difference in which the threads are made? ANs are rolled I believe, and the 8s are done differently, which makes the thread area weaker than the AN threads if I recall (weasel word in case I'm wrong).

Chris, none of the suppliers carry bolts that long. About 2.5-3 inches or so is due to the hub. I can't get precise on the brush mount yet until I get the bolts and snug it down, but roughly I have to come out 2.5 inches and down to the rings. Hopefully I can use an aluminum channel like on the control box. Once fitted, I could remove it and trim the front down and polish it. I'd attach it to the 2 lower bolts on the small pulley plate.

[CLS447]

Ken, I see what you mean. That sounds like a good idea to me.

I hope you get the bolts soon. Are they 5/16 or 3/8". My Souza redrive uses a 100mm bolt pattern with 3/8" bolts. I forget the length but they were'nt to cheap either.

I told Warp & they drilled the bolt pattern accordingly, when I ordered it. We Gotta see if the Prince will fit mine!

[KenSandyEggo]

I looked at some bolts yesterday that were not AN. They have a lot more threads than the AN bolts. The longest they had were 8 inchers and I need 7.75s. Even though the 8 inchers were longer, the threads would not completely extend beyond the plate. I took a tape measure with me. Some threads would be inside the plate....not good. I use 3/8th bolts, Chris and the Prince is an SAE 1 pattern, as is my IVO.

[mceagle]

Ken, got that prop going yet?
We have just tried one here on a 110hp EA81, but only ground adjustable and set at the same top RPM as the warp drive. Very similar performance with slightly better bottom end. Pulls extra pitch easily in cruise without labouring the engine. Will probably order the elect pitch to make full use of it.

[KenSandyEggo]

STILL WAITING FOR BOLTS! :cool:

I believe I will see if I can score some Grade 8s to try it out. The best delivery time I could get on the ANs was early October. I guess that the bolt mine is closed for the summer.

[GyroRon]

Ken the props on both of the two dominators I have owned, is held on with lower than grade 8 metric bolts. The entire rotorhead including teeter bolt - I am not 100 percent on the teeter bolt - is put together with Grade 8. Most of the airframe is put together with grade 8. I say go for it and try it. what is the chance of all 6 bolts failing at once?

[KenSandyEggo]

I'm wondering if I'll even be able to find 8s with a 7 inch grip. There's a pretty big fastener house locally. I'll give them a try.

[automan1223]

try http://www.racebolts.com/

these guys got a lot of trick titanium and other type hardware in all sizes.

[KenSandyEggo]

Thanks for the local tip Jonathan, but the longest bolt I could find that they have is 3.75 inches. I need at least 8-inchers, depending where the threads start. I did pick up 6 grade-8 bolts today with the shank at 7 inches, exactly the size I need, but the darn threads are 3 inches long, making them 10 inches overall. Bolt-guy said there is no problem with shortening the thread area....all agree?

[Chuck Irby]

I agree. Cut em off.

[GyroRon]

Find a nut to thread onto the threads and screw it down past where you need to cut. Then cut the bolt - not sure which way is best to cut them, I would probably use a metal cutting blade on my sawzall and stick the bolt in the vice and cut it - Once the bolt is cut un screw the nut off and that will clean up the end of the threads so it will go into your redrive with no fuss.

If you can get to the back of the redrive, you might want to leave the bolts slightly long so you can put a lock nut on the back side of the redrive where the bolt sticks through.

[Chuck Irby]

Wow, I figured Ken had enough sense to know how to cut off a bolt. :D

[GyroRon]

You must not have been reading all of Kens posts over the years...

[Chuck Irby]

Hmmmm, you're right, Ron. I haven't. So, Ken isn't too competent mechanically, huh? :D

[GyroRon]

I didn't say that. But if in doubt it never hurts to follow instructions.

[scottessex]

Ken, have you tried to find NAS bolts? It would be nice to know if the grade 8 bolts have rolled threads.
If you do cut the bolts, clean them up with a file or small grinder or sander, just to round the end slightly.

[KenSandyEggo]

Thanks for the tips. You guys are too much.

[Aussie_Paul]

Hey Ken J, you don't need enemies when have "mates" like us lot!! LOL

Aussie Paul. :)

[lanichol]

I looked at some bolts yesterday that were not AN. They have a lot more threads than the AN bolts. The longest they had were 8 inchers and I need 7.75s. Even though the 8 inchers were longer, the threads would not completely extend beyond the plate. I took a tape measure with me. Some threads would be inside the plate....not good. I use 3/8th bolts, Chris and the Prince is an SAE 1 pattern, as is my IVO.

I have been out of town.

Did you find some bolts for your IVO?

Any progress on the pre-rotator?

[GraemeMonro]

News.... Hope all is well and you just havn't got around to telling us whats happening.

[KenSandyEggo]

Guys, my plans have all been put back a little. I have the bolts for the prop and all the components for the prerotator. What I don't have is time or motivation. I got my nursing license and am now gainfully employed at Children's Hospital here in the sub-acute unit.

I'm also in a big depression. To those that know Stefanos, my co-pilot buddy, he is now living about 3,000 miles away. I took him to the airport last Saturday, watched him cry as he was leaving and am in a serious grieving and mourning mode. He didn't want to go, his mom didn't want to go, but his dad could care less and made them move. Demetra and I half-raised him since he was 6 months old and he's now 7 1/2 years old. He spent almost every weekend with us and more during the summer. I usually picked him up on Friday at the bus stop and brought him back to the bus stop on Monday morning for school. There is a deep hole in our lives and I'm having a hard time with it.

Luckily the kids at work keep me occupied while I'm there, but during the drive home after work, I usually have tears running down my cheeks. I avoid alone time as much as possible now. I'm sure things will get easier as time passes, but right now it's devastating. I've only flown once in the last couple months or so, and that was a promised ride to a visiting relative. As time heals, I'll get back to my projects, but right now they don't seem quite as important as they used to.

[GyroRon]

Remember Ken, your welcome in my home anytime. I will do anything I can to help. I live 1 mile from the Charlotte City Limits.

[Chuck Irby]

Ken, I'm sorry for your big loss. That has to be tough. If we can help, just let us know.

[asmuzsr]

I think we're all going to miss him. It was always great seeing him enjoy flying with you.
Tony
N267A

[KenSandyEggo]

Thanks for all the nice thoughts, folks. Anyway, I mounted the Ivo today. I powered it up and taped the brushes to the pick-ups, because I don't have a bracket for the brushes yet. A fellow "rat" has a small machine shop in his hangar and he looked at it a couple days ago and said, "No problem." I'll see if he's around on Monday and maybe we can get it done. I played with the switch and measured the pitch change at the tip of one of the blades...it's 10 degrees.

Until I fly it, I won't know whether I have to limit the amount on either end. It's done by adding washers on the shaft. I put one on each end as a W.A.G., and will see how close I am to over-revving on take-off or lugging the engine in cruise. Works great on the ground and I can't wait to try it out.

[KenSandyEggo]

"Sparky" wasn't around today to start making a brush bracket for me, so I'll see if I can catch him on Tuesday morning before I go to work. I couldn't wait any longer, so I hand-held the brushes in place and adjusted her for max take-off pitch. I usually get 5100 rpm on take-off. I requested a runway flight down a mile-long runway with a landing at the other end....just in case. I climbed out and she was turning 5300 rpm now. I was shooting for 5400. I shouldn't have added limiting washers when I assembled the prop. I put one on each end, just for starters to limit cruise and take-off rpm. I won't take the take-off limiting washer off just yet. I'll wait until I get the brushes attached so I can see how the cruise pitch works. I have to just about disassemble the whole prop-assembly to adjust washers, so I might as well wait to see how I am at the other end of the spectrum.

If Sparky can make me a bracket tomorrow or by Wednesday, that'll give me a day to check it out and then hopefully make it to El Mirage. I was planning on flying up Saturday, but I'm scheduled to work that day. If I can't find anyone to trade with, I may just come up Friday instead. Is there a decent crowd there on Fridays?

[birdy]

Your a good man Ken,with a heart of gold.I got alot of time for blokes like you.

[KenSandyEggo]

Hey! Thanks, Birdy. I feel the same way about you. If I ever can afford it and have the time, I would really love to visit all you guys down there.

[PW_Plack]

Ken, I don't know how big a crowd there'll be, but Todd and I will be there, and I look forward to getting the chance to meet you!

In fact, Todd's been on the road from Spokane for...probably a half-hour by now, and we're pulling out late tomorrow morning from my place near Portland, with his Dominator in tow.

[KenSandyEggo]

Grrrrrrrrrr. Double-grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Got a machinist to make me a nice bracket for the brushes for the IVO, got everything installed and wired and tested the prop on the ground first. Once in awhile, it would hang up and stop, usually at the end of a pitch-run. I fiddled with the prop bolts and went for a ride around the pattern. Took off at 5400 rpm. I throttled back to about 4800 and started the pitch toward cruise. I saw the rpm drop about 300 and then nothing. I went around and only saw 4800 on climb-out. Landed and played with it again, making sure the brushes were making contact, etc. Went up again and same thing.....works for a little while and then poops out.

I find out after I land, that when it sticks, I tap the motor housing lightly and then it works again. I figure a loose connection. I take off the cap of the motor housing and there it is, one of the wires to the motor is barely hanging on. I touch it and it falls completely off. Looks like a very bad solder-job of the wire to the lug. I barely grab hold of the other wire and it also falls off. The tip of the wire was barely in the solder. There's hardly any solder on either wire.

That's easily taken care of, except with the electric motor-cap off, when I held the wires on to check it, the motor and housing unscrewed on the shaft and I can't get it back in. I called IVO, but all the techs had left for the day. So I'll call them tomorrow and see if I can get it back where it belongs without having to disassemble the whole thing. I'll be back in a minute with some pics......the 4th one here shows the motor unscrewed on the jack-shaft. There should be no space to the left of that middle collar.

[KenSandyEggo]

Have to put one in a separate post.

[rehler]

Ken,

Thanks for keeping us up to date. I just keep learning that gyros are a great and never ending hobby!

[KenSandyEggo]

I have to send the motor back to have it put back the way it's supposed to be. Grrrrrr, again.

[rehler]

What a wimp! Don't you have a sledge hammer?

[KenSandyEggo]

I already tried a big rubber mallet. I don't want to nick that nice machined aluminum. In that last picture in post #78, you can see the 2 wires that practically fell off.

[CLS447]

Ken, I am considering ordering a red Prince for my machine. I would really appreciate your input as to which will be your favorite choice between the three props that you have tried.

If I go LSA I don't think I will be able to use the IFA Ivo. Plus it is expensive!

I guess what I want to hear is that the Prince is the best choice. But please don't tell me what I want to hear, give me your honest opinion.

[GyroRon]

Chris, have you priced a Prince Prop lately? they aren't cheap either! I don't like the fact that with the prince, if you do a modification to the engine or gearbox and need to change the pitch of the prop, it has to be sent back in and this costs you time and money. With the Warp drive type props, you just take in or out some pitch, easy.

[rehler]

Chris,

I don't want you to select a prop without having all of the confussion that I went through, so I suggest you look at the DUC prop and the Kieve Prop. Then you will be as confused as I was.

If I wanted to try another prop it would be the DUC prop. It is used on the two place Magni-look-a-like gyro from Spain. They look like a really good quiet, powerful, pitch adjustable prop (but only come in 68" diameter).

http://www.duc-helices.com/technique/windspoon.htm

http://www.xairamerica.com/ducen-main.html

[Dean_Dolph]

Chris,

I don't want you to select a prop without having all of the confussion that I went through, so I suggest you look at the DUC prop and the Kieve Prop. Then you will be as confused as I was.

If I wanted to try another prop it would be the DUC prop. It is used on the two place Magni-look-a-like gyro from Spain. They look like a really good quiet, powerful, pitch adjustable prop (but only come in 68" diameter).Ken, are telling us you are no longer confused!

If so, what cleared up your confusion and why would you pick the DUC prop? Did you get a Kiev (otherwise known as a Hot Prop!) http://www.oregonaircraftdesign.com/HotProps.html prop and if so what was your experience or observations?

[rehler]

Dean,

No, I'm still confused! I bought a Arplast prop (like used on the Magni gyros). It is a beautiful prop giving great thrust! I love it, but ... it is noisy compared to my Sport Prop, which had curved blade tips. The DUC prop has curved tips, so I expect it would be quiet - compared to the Arplast. The Kiev prop has curved blades and may also be quiet (that's what I am told).

I sure hope some gyro owners buy DUC and Kiev Props, so they can tell us how they work. I decided on the Arplast Prop because it was "proven" - popular and very well built (extremely high quality). It was a very conservative choice - I'm not a very bold pilot!

[KenSandyEggo]

Chris, I don't have enough tryout time with the IVO. Seems like that will be the way to go. I do know that they have a lousy soldering person though.

I like the Prince too for fixed-pitch. If you guess wrong, you can send it back and Lonnie can tweak it to speed it up or slow it down. It's a pain, but I had to do it once as it was initially over-revving.

Nothing wrong with the Warp either, especially if you like adjusting the pitch. I wouldn't rap any of them. They're all good for the money spent. The Prince is the quietest though, IMO. I really need to get my manifold pressure gauge installed so I know what it is when flying. What will too much do, anyone? Blow the engine or gaskets? Is there any recommended pressure numbers for the Soob 2.2 that anyone knows? How much is too much and how much is not enough?

[Dean_Dolph]

........I really need to get my manifold pressure gauge installed so I know what it is when flying. What will too much do, anyone? Blow the engine or gaskets? Is there any recommended pressure numbers for the Soob 2.2 that anyone knows? How much is too much and how much is not enough?Ken, if you are running a normally aspirated engine, in other words one that does not have a turbo or supercharger, then your manifold pressure is going to be in inches of vacuum. What that would run depends on several things. Those that run the Suburu will have to fill in the numbers. Jonathon Automan1223 should be able to tell you as well as tell you what the numbers mean.

Oh yeah, in a earlier post you said you had to make another post to add another picture after you had attached four. Actually you could have attached the fifth one.

If you have more than four to attach then you have to upload the first four and then you are presented with another pop-up for four more,.......I think!

[KenSandyEggo]

You're right, Dean, but that last one was big, so I just added another post after resizing it. I think the total has to be under 150, and the last one put the total at 170 for one posting. Thanks.

Jonathon.....speak to me about M-P......please.

[mceagle]

Ken, there is no such thing as too much or too little vacuum on a naturally aspired engine. (I tell a lie, too little could mean that the engine is stopped, in which case, understanding the vacuum guage would be an irrelevant consideration).
The guage becomes an economy guage, high readings for low power settings (economical) and low readings for high power settings (not economical). It will be up to you to choose the best combination of vacuum and RPM's to give you your most efficient cruise speed.
The vacuum guage is also handy for prior warning of potential internal engine problems like valve problems or ring wear.
Also, make sure that the guage pickup is taken from the plenenm (?) chamber in the centre of the manifold.

[Dean_Dolph]

Ken, I believe that the 150K limit is for one picture but you are still right in that the 170K was too big.

[KenSandyEggo]

Thanks, Tim. Appreciate the feedback. That's what I thought, Dean. I guess I misread that the total was over 150, but it was just the last photo.

The motor went out to IVO today and they'll get it tomorrow. I enclosed a "Nasty-Gram," saying it was inexcusable to have such a shoddy soldering job on such an expensive item. The lazy-ass that soldered the 2 wires didn't even bother to insert the wires through the holes in the tabs first and just cold-soldered the tips of the wires to the tabs. Even if they purchase the motors pre-wired, they should at least inspect them while assembling them into the housing. I wonder if I'll get a Saskatchewan reply..."Oh, really? You're the first one to report any trouble like this."

[asmuzsr]

That comment is not restricted to gyro's. The outfit I bought my Excalibur from uses it too.

Tony

[CLS447]

Ken, why aren't you running the Prince since the repairs? What made you get a Prince in the first place? I am seriously thinking about getting one & would really like to know if it is worth it!

[KenSandyEggo]

Chris, I'm not running the Prince because I haven't had much time to fly for personal reasons, so I figure I may as well wait to get the motor from IVO back. Of course it was my fault for making the wires to the pickup plates too taut. Anyway, they're pretty accommodating and they're shipping it back today. I should get it tomorrow and have it going by the weekend.

The Prince is the best fixed-pitch that I have ever flown on a gyro.....let's see, that makes all of 2 props, the Warp and Prince. It had more thrust than the Warp, was quieter and looked prettier. The Prince is definitely worth it IMO. Let me try the IVO for awhile, if you're not in a hurry, as I may sell my Prince.

[KenSandyEggo]

O.K. I got it reinstalled and working. I have to tweak the bracket for the brushes a little as they're not perfectly straight and the brushes are at a slight angle, but working as advertised. Since it's working the way it should and goes end-to-end from climb to cruise settings, I have to add a washer to limit the climb range. I was turning about 5700 at full throttle on take-off. I just want 5400, the peak h.p. for the 2.2.

It's the other end that has me baffled, the cruise setting. After I levelled off, I set the engine to 5,000 rpm, still in the full climb setting and began going to the cruise setting on the prop. In about 9 seconds, it goes all way to the opposite setting. Once I reached full cruise, the rpm had dropped to 3700 on the engine, a difference of 1300 rpm! I was able to maintain altitude at 3700 rpm, but I don't know if that's advisable. As I was told today by an airport-rat, the lower the power setting and the higher the prop load (full cruise), the higher the manifold pressure will be. At some point, too much manifold pressure can cause harm to the engine.

There was some lively discussion between several of us hangar-rats today. One said to install the manifold pressure gauge and don't let the prop rpm get higher than the pressure. He was reminded that I run a 2:1 reduction drive and one of the other rats said that throws all the manifold pressure settings out the window. Another suggested that running the engine at 3700 and above was a high power setting and therefore I shouldn't be doing any damage to the engine at whatever prop-setting I go to. So the concensus was......"how the hell should we know?"

Cruising at 3700 would sure be great. That's about 800 less than I usually cruise at solo and I bet that would really cut down the fuel burn. But how do I find out if that's too low for the pitch setting at full cruise? I can easily fix the take-off setting by adding a limiting washer or 2 to bring it down to 5400, but what do I do with the other end? I already have one washer at each end as a starting point.

Do I install the gauge and instead of using the engine rpm, cut it in about half due to the reduction pulley and use that number and try to square it off like in Lycinentals with constant-speed props? Do I not worry about it and just get to the lowest rpm I can that keeps me up in the air at full cruise pitch? Can anyone help with this matter? I tried asking on the Subaru Aircraft Engine Newsgroup about a week ago and got exactly "0" replies. For some reason, when I talk to the folks at IVO, they can just talk about their prop on an aircraft engine and about squaring the manifold pressure and rpms. I must be blazing a trail here again with it on a Soob with a reduction gear.

[CLS447]

Great Ken! You got it working. What were your max rpm's with the Prince & Warp?

How does it feel as far as climb goes... comparetively?

Don Parham should have some advice on this. If you ran your engine direct drive, I imagine you would be in the 3700 rpm range.

What was your speed in the cruise setting? Or were you just barely maintaining altitude? I might be inclined to shoot for a little more ...like 4200?

What could you hold altitude at with the Warp & Prince ?

Please try to tell me if you climb better at 5700 or 5200.


I took another degree off my Warp yesterday (11 degrees now) I seemed to gain more thrust(475 now) & another 100rpm's.(5240 static now) I am reluctant to go with less pitch because I will be revving even higher(don't want to overtax things) & I will be losing cruise speed.

I really like the idea of the in-flight adjustable. Jim V. has the Warp one( someone else's adj.) . Please keep us posted on your findings. I could order the Ivo prop to test for 30 days. If I like it I could add the motor later. It's the only way to get the best of both worlds( climb & cruise ). If I go ELSA later though I believe this prop would not be allowed....how stupid?!

[Dean_Dolph]

Ken, your Soob doesn't know where the load being placed on it is coming from. It could be transmission driven wheels as in a car, a shaft driven irrigation pump or an aircraft prop. And it really doesn't care! All it sees is resistance to crank rotation and the source of that resistance doesn't matter. If there isn't any resistance then there isn't any horsepower/torque being produced other than to overcome internal friction and accessory drive losses. So having a redrive or not doesn't matter as far as the engine is concerned. It just goes to what ever rpm the throttle setting and the imposed load allows. The value of a redrive is that it is a torque multiplying device that allows the engine to handle a higher load and to run in the most efficient torque band. Without the redrive then the load imposed by props at certain pitch settings will place a load high enough that the engine can't rev to the rpm where it produces high enough torque and horsepower to be efficient. That is why you see engine rpm change with prop pitch changes.

I know very little about prop and prop design 'cause I'm one of those guys that skim thru material to pick up the general flavor and hit the high points. I only study the material when it comes time that it is relevant to a project I'm directly involved with. But in articles I've read on props, they talk about prop efficiency, advance ratios and etc., which directly affect and explain performance. And it doesn't appear to be an exact science!

What I'm getting to is that apparently you are getting higher prop efficiency at a lower engine RPM in the cruise setting and of course that is what you are after and want. I say this because obviously the horsepower/torque values are not the same at 3700 RPM as at 5000. I have no idea what the torque curve looks like for a 2.2 Sub but I suspect that it is fairly flat from about 3000 rpm to somewhere after the peak at 4400 rpm.……..It's the other end that has me baffled, the cruise setting. After I levelled off, I set the engine to 5,000 rpm, still in the full climb setting and began going to the cruise setting on the prop. In about 9 seconds, it goes all way to the opposite setting. Once I reached full cruise, the rpm had dropped to 3700 on the engine…….. I was able to maintain altitude at 3700 rpm, but I don't know if that's advisable. As I was told today by an airport-rat, the lower the power setting and the higher the prop load (full cruise), the higher the manifold pressure will be. At some point, too much manifold pressure can cause harm to the engine. I'm not sure why your airport rat thinks that a high manifold pressure is a problem! This is negative pressure, as in a vacuum, not atmospheric or above. For a normally aspirated engine the manifold pressure indicator is a simple vacuum gauge with a negative pressure range of 0 - 30 inches of mercury. Turbocharged ones will use a compound gauge that shows a range of negative 30 inches mercury to a positive pressure above 0, say up to 30 pounds per square inch. You will have a lower manifold pressure reading at 3700 rpm than you will at your max of 5400.

All a normally aspirated engines manifold pressure gauge indicates is whether an engine is getting all the air it wants at any specific RPM. You will never see a reading of zero except with the engine shut down. Normally you will find that manifold pressure goes up (actually it is down because the higher reading means a higher vacuum) at the higher RPM. This is because the intake system can't supply air as fast as the engine is trying to suck it in thru the intake valves. Consequently a higher vacuum (high manifold pressure reading) reading develops. The lack of air flow, and thus oxygen, is what limits a engines power output. That is where turbo/superchargers come into play since they can pump in air faster than the engine can use it. I haven't played with engines for years and have never looked at a fuel injection one with a manifold pressure gauge. But I suspect that the normal manifold pressure shows a lower reading than one with a carburetor.

If nothing else installing a manifold pressure gauge will quickly give you an education. You will see that at idle that you have a relatively high manifold pressure that quickly drops toward zero when you open the throttle and then will stabilize at the normal operating pressure and then reach a maximum vacuum reading as you approach the air starvation point. If there is no load placed on an engine then I suspect that other factors would limit max RPM before reaching the air starvation point.There was some lively discussion between several of us hangar-rats today. One said to install the manifold pressure gauge and don't let the prop rpm get higher than the pressure. He was reminded that I run a 2:1 reduction drive and one of the other rats said that throws all the manifold pressure settings out the window. Another suggested that running the engine at 3700 and above was a high power setting and therefore I shouldn't be doing any damage to the engine at whatever prop-setting I go to. So the concensus was......"how the hell should we know?" There are several factors that can affect manifold pressure but the load on the prop is not one of them except indirectly. In other words the more load from the prop, the more power required. The more power required, the more air required. To provide more air mean the throttle has to be opened more and that WILL affect the manifold pressure. If more load is put on the engine then it is capable of developing at that rpm then it will not be able to rev and use the air available and the manifold pressure will drop toward zero.

I know this can get confusing but I don't think you have a problem at 3700 rpm. However, the specs I have, for a stock fuel injected 2.2 Suburu, show that max torque is developed at 4400 rpm and peak horsepower is at 5400 rpm as you have stated. It would be helpful to see the torque curve so you could tell where 3700 rpm lies.

Okay, it took me a while to think this thru so hopefully I have stated every thing correctly. If not then, never mind!

[KenSandyEggo]

Thanks very much, Dean. All that you have posted is very helpful to me inasmuch as I'm starting at zero knowledge on this topic.

I got on the Eggenfelnner page and noted some stories from pilots using his engines. Most are the 2.5 though. Their MAPs were all over the spectrum from around 20 to in the 40s on their various trips. I've been O.K.-ed to post there, so I may throw up the questions I have. I don't know if many will be able to relate, as the E-engines have the electronics. My engine has none. It's a mechanical-type FI system.

[KenSandyEggo]

How does it feel as far as climb goes... comparetively?

If I hold it to 5100, it feels about the same as the Prince.

Don Parham should have some advice on this. If you ran your engine direct drive, I imagine you would be in the 3700 rpm range.

What was your speed in the cruise setting? Or were you just barely maintaining altitude? I might be inclined to shoot for a little more ...like 4200?

I was indicating in the low-70s, about what I show at an easy cruise with the Prince or Warp.

What could you hold altitude at with the Warp & Prince?

With the Warp, I used to be able to hold at 4200. With the Prince, it was around 4500. The Prince was pitched more toward a climb prop than the way I had the Warp set up....about 13.5 degrees if I recall. Subjectively, I feel I was burning much more fuel with the Prince, but never really checked either. Another caveat......when I got the Prince, I switched from the RAF engine tach to VDOs. I kind of suspect that maybe the RAF tach was reading too low, but never really checked it out.

Please try to tell me if you climb better at 5700 or 5200.

Again subjectively, I didn't leave it at 5700 for very long and powered back to 5400. The climb felt considerably better, but that's really subjective not taking any other factors into account.

Tomorrow (Monday), I'll tweak the brush bracket and then leave the airport area to check some cruise settings.

[PW_Plack]

Dean, you'll confuse poor Ken even more! You said:

"Normally you will find that manifold pressure goes up (actually it is down because the higher reading means a higher vacuum) at the higher RPM."

No, it's not! The manifold pressure gauge on an aircraft reads "up-is-up." A higher reading is higher pressure, even though it's still less than ambient atmospheric pressure. A higher reading means less vacuum. If you advance the throttle and the pressure rises from 12 to 25 inches, you have less vacuum, higher pressure.

Ken,

The bit about making sure you have the manifold pressure and tach "squared up," or wanting 2500 RPM if you're pulling 25 inches of manifold pressure, is a coincidental relationship unique to aircraft engines designed for low RPM operation. Both RPM and inches of mercury are arbitrary units not related to each other.

In an engine which makes its max power at 5000 RPM, use a 2-to-1 ratio to keep the relationship meaningful, 25 inches at 5000 RPM. Even then, it may not be important.

[KenSandyEggo]

Here's a chart I found on NSI's website. I hope it can be seen. The solid green line shows engine torque for the 2.2. Max torque starts at 3400 and stays pretty much there until 5400 and way beyond with just a little dipping fluctuation.

Thanks for your info also, Paul. I'm starting to get the picture.

Here's a link to the graph that may be easier to see. Hold your cursor in the bottom right corner and click on the icon to get an enlargement with the numbers easily read.

http://www.nsiaero.com/nsiaero2/4.0/4.1/4.1.4/4.1.4.6/Enginedyno.jpg

[Chuck Roberg]

Ken, Do you have a fuel flow meter installed? It would seem to me, with a fuel flow meter, you would be able to find the best engine/pitch combination.

[KenSandyEggo]

Don't have one Chuck. I'm still trying to find space to mount the MAP gauge. Couldn't the least fuel flow be in a lugging condition though.....like driving 15 m.p.h. in 4th gear of a car?

[PW_Plack]

If you're at or above the RPM at which max torque occurs, you can't be "lugging" the engine.

[Dean_Dolph]

Well, Paul, I'm not sure about Ken being confused but it seems either you or I or both are!

I was speaking of the type of manifold pressure gauge that is typically used with auto engines where the reading indicates how much of a vacuum is being pulled as opposed to how close the MP is to an absolute vacuum like an aircraft MP gauge. I may have made the wrong assumption that since Ken is running a Suburu, that he would use a auto manifold pressure gauge from his local Pep Boys.

The aircraft MP gauge is an absolute pressure measurement device where the auto MP gauge is measuring how much vacuum is being pulled. So, you are right if Ken uses an aircraft MP gauge then when the reading goes up it means that the pressure is getting higher although it is still below atmospheric.

In my simple mind it is easier to visualize and understand manifold pressure using the auto manifold pressure gauge as the reference. And I bet it is a whole lot cheaper than a aircraft MP gauge!

[Harry_S.]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAN.

I didn't realize you were that old; you old codger!!!


Cheers :)

[PW_Plack]

Why Dean, I apologize...I didn't know, either! Even if your advancing age is the source of your confusion, it was rude of me to question someone so much...uh, so much more experienced! :)

Joking aside, the auto vacuum gauge will work, although it may be tough to discuss readings with other pilots. The automotive vacuum/boost gauges I've seen were calibrated in PSI, while the aircraft ones were inches Hg. Except, of course, the ones that some automakers put in as decorations, which have no numbers at all, just red and green zones!

[Dean_Dolph]

Harry, only the body is old and I don't have any control over that. I'm just happy to see it hung on for one more year! Thanks for the thought.

[Dean_Dolph]

Paul, I've always been confused but one advantage of advancing age is that now there is an excuse that everyone accepts!

All of the auto vacuum gauges I've seen do measure in inches of mercury. The compound ones used with turbos are as you have described except the ones I'm familiar with still have a inches of mercury on the below zero side.

Whether there will be confusion or not depends on what pilots Ken discusses manifold pressure with. He needs to pick his pilot friends carefully!

[Greg Lockhart]

Ken,
Did you see any improvement in takeoff distance or climb performance with the new prop?
Greg Lockhart

[KenSandyEggo]

I have a gauge from Chief Aircraft Parts. Take-off distance and climb rate seems much better if I leave it at full take-off pitch, but anything over 5400 is wasted as that's where it peaks. I took a flight to the ocean today with a passenger and it was very interesting. I don't have time right now to post it all, so I'll be back later this evening.

[KenSandyEggo]

O.K., I'm back. Weather was nice this afternoon after heavy a.m. fog and David was over for the weekend. He's Demetra's son that lives in a care facility about 1 hour driving time north. He weighs 185, I weigh 200 and we had 3/4ths of a tank of fuel, about 15 gallons on board.....and of course my new IVO cockpit-controllable prop. I tweaked the brush mount before we left so that the holder is squared off and the brushes are sitting just a hair off the pickup rings.

We took off showing about 5500 rpm. I throttled back to 5,000 and was still seeing a pretty good climb-rate. The prop was in full climb-mode. After we got up to my usual 500 feet AGL, I left the throttle where it was and activated the switch to move toward cruise pitch. The rpm started dropping and I let go of the switch at 4200 rpm. We were levelled off with no pitch-trim changes and clipping along at 65 m.p.h. per the GPS. It was actually 75 m.p.h. airspeed, as we had about a 10 knot headwind. Coming back, the GPS was showing as high as 87 m.p.h., so actually about 77 m.p.h. with the tailwind.

Everything felt smooth as I changed pitch from one end to the other. I cruised at around 4500 solo with the Prince prop. I got down to 3700 the other day with the IVO. As IVO says, "It's like having a transmission on your plane." I'm really anxious to wring it out some more and see where I can cruise best solo and see what kind of speeds I'll get with it in full cruise pitch and a little more engine rpm. The fuel burn will be interesting to check also.

[CLS447]

Alright Ken , so do you feel that at the same rpm, it is climbing better than the Warp? Is it quieter?

Is that a 68" prop?

Would it be a pain to start with just the prop & add the motor system later, or would this be no worse than installing the whole system right away ?

I imagine that this one is a keeper, huh Ken?

If you were an honest salesman , how would you talk me into buying one? I know you are honest for real, but give me a good reason for calling IVO.

[KenSandyEggo]

Alright Ken , so do you feel that at the same rpm, it is climbing better than the Warp? Is it quieter?

That's hard to say, Chris, because you can depitch the Warp where you'll climb like crazy but only get 35 m.p.h. on the top end. I had 13.5 degrees on my Warp and the Prince and IVO outclimbed it at that particular setting. I don't notice any excess noise. Sounds the same as the Prince, to me.

Is that a 68" prop?

Yes.

Would it be a pain to start with just the prop & add the motor system later, or would this be no worse than installing the whole system right away ?

I have no idea.

I imagine that this one is a keeper, huh Ken?

As long as it holds up as to reliability, yes. Time will tell.

If you were an honest salesman , how would you talk me into buying one? I know you are honest for real, but give me a good reason for calling IVO.

I'd take you for a ride. I can't really talk anyone into buying one because I don't have enough time on it. Once I have 50 hours or so, I think I'll have a pretty good handle on it. From my research, the only problems I've seen were a delaminating of the blades from an outside vendor. That was very early on and they took care of it right away. If it holds up, I think it's a great buy at under 2 grand delivered.

[Dean_Dolph]

Ken, how much weight did the adjusting mechanism add?

Oh yeah, did you get the Chief Aircraft parts manifold pressure gauge installed and if so what readings are you getting?

[KenSandyEggo]

Nope. The gauge is still sitting in the box. Dean, retrofit kit for the medium prop that I have is 6 Lbs. That's to turn a ground-adjustable into the electric cockpit-adjustable version. I don't know what the blades weigh, but they're fairly light. So all the gear for the electric prop is only 6 pounds.

Attached are 5 pics showing the final installation. 1st one is fuzzy. I think the "focuser" was on my car in the background. Oh, by the way, as you can see, my AN bolts came in. Including shipping.....$150.00 for 6 of those long honkers. They're almost 8 inches long.

There's a customer of IVOs that makes spinners to cover the motor. I'd have to disassemble everything again, but it's really not that big a deal. I guess it would look nice with it covered up. I'm thinking about it.

[Dean_Dolph]

Well, if any additional incentive is needed, it is my understanding that a spinner helps prop efficiency with something called 'recovery'. I've read about it, don't understand it but I believe C. Beaty has commented on it.

[Harry_S.]

I don't understand it either Dean, but it does just about eliminates turbulence at the prop hub.

[KenSandyEggo]

Took her up for a couple flights today and the prop was working intermittently again. Here's a pic though at full cruise pitch.....I think, level at 72 m.p.h. and 4,000 rpm. One of the airport rats told me that he didn't like my brush mount for the prop. Sure enough. When I landed, it was cracked to the edge from the mounting hole outward and had moved enough to break contact on one of the brushes. He showed my how to use angle aluminum to make a bracket that will be rigid and mount to 2 bolts instead of the one I was using. Nothing wrong with the prop, just my inefficient bracket.

[scott heger]

Ken, I see you still have not gotten rid of those cheap Mexican shoes in the picture, but what is the chrome open end wrench doing as shown right above your hand? Is it attached to the RAF magic mast by means of osmosis? Or is it used to ward off alien intruders? Inquiring minds want to know. Flew over to F70 and HMT yesterday is it was still in the 90's out there, but very low wind- a great 2 hour flight.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[KenSandyEggo]

I was just talking about those sandals today. I've had them forever and they're starting to fall apart, but like good wife, I just hate to get rid of them until absolutely necessary. By the way, for the last 11 years or so I had a girlfriend. As of 11 a.m. today, PDT, I have a wife. Stefanos came from North Carolina and I made him the "best man." He held the rings and gave them to us at the proper time. Him and I were the only ones with a rose on our lapels and he thought he was hot s***. After the meal, he asked if he could make a little speech. He actually stood up on a chair in front of all the guests and announced that Demetra and I have been his best friends since he was a baby, that this is a very special day for both of us and he's happy for us and congratulations. I couldn't believe how well that all came out of a 7 year old's mouth. It was the only time a tear came to my eye today. He's something else. Unfortunately, he's leaving for NC tomorrow evening, and I'll be missing him terribly once again.

[Aussie_Paul]

Congratulations you old devil, and also to Demetra for having the courage to take you on!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aussie Paul. :)

[ventana7]

Congratulations Ken--

Way to go!

Rob

[scott heger]

A big congradulations, hope nothing but great times ahead for both of you!!! ...... Are you off for a vacation or hanging around So Cal?


But you still ducted the question about the wrench in the picture?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[KenSandyEggo]

Until I get off my butt and hook up the hydraulic line for the prerotator, I'm using a handle and cable from a bicycle, with the main reason being that the bike setup comes with a stainless steel pre-stretched cable. The bike handle is much smaller than a motorcycle handle, so I temporarily extended it for better leverage by hose clamping a small wrench to the bicycle handle. It's Mickey Mouse, but it works. As soon as I get a solid bracket for the IVO brushes installed, I'll get the hydraulic line going. Thanks everyone for the best wishes. She's a great lady.

[PW_Plack]

Ken,

I'm sure Demetra is breathing a sigh of relief now, knowing she can't be cut out of the fortune you made in the horizontal stabilizer business.

Congrats!

[darrellwittke]

Way to formalize with Demetra, Ken, and sounds like you have quite the little communicator....wonder where he got that from? darrellwittke

[scott heger]

ken, your setup up may be mickey mouse...but at least minnie is home to cook your meals now......SCOTT

[ventana7]

You guys are really going to confuse the Aussie contingent on the forum-- to them Mickey Mouse is something that is really good! :cool:

Rob

[KenSandyEggo]

Good one, Paul. Actually she's after my forthcoming money from all the hydraulic line setups that I'll be flooding the market with.

We'll be hanging around awhile until the dust settles and then take a short cruise of about a week somewhere...probably the Mexican Riviera...whatever that means.

[PW_Plack]

It's just like the French Riviera, only less likely to have indoor bathrooms, and more likely to need them. :)

[KenSandyEggo]

I think I'll stay on the boat. I don't care really where it goes, as long as it's not somewhere cold. I took a 1-day cruise once with my now-ex down to Ensenada. After the ship docked, I looked over the rail at all the junky cabs, aggressive street vendors, panhandlers and crappy tour buses and turned around, found a deck-chair and took a nap until we sailed back.

[KenSandyEggo]

I finally had a few hours to fabricate a new bracket for the brushes. Works fine, but I couldn't test anything as it's pouring rain here today. I'll try to take some photos of it tomorrow.

[CLS447]

Ken, what type of bolts did you end up using? Where did you get them?

I need a long bolt for an axle on my nosewheel. I ordered a grade 8 that I will cut the extra thread off. Just would like to know where to get long AN bolts.

[KenSandyEggo]

Chris, I get my long bolts from a place in California. You'll have to wait until I'm in the hangar and get their name and number for you. Even from them, I have to wait a few weeks on long prop bolts while they get them from their manufacturer, but they always get them. The only problem is that on those rare bolts, they have a minimum order of 5, but maybe yours isn't an extra-long oddball.

[CLS447]

Ken, thanks but I sure don't need 5 of them. I got an 1/2" x 11" grade 8 bolt for my nosewheel axle. It should be fine. Cost me 10 bucks.

[KenSandyEggo]

O.K., Chris. You'd pay up the wazoo for an 11" AN bolt.

[route66]

Help Ken!!! I have read this thread many times hoping to answer my questions and not have to ask questions already answered. I have an IFA Ivoprop I am trying to mount on a Sub 2.5 with the RAF ruduction unit. Where did you find bolts to mont the Ivo unit to the RAF reduction gear? I called Ivo customer service and received the deer in headlights comments with no satisfaction. One thing came to my attention was when my customer service rep sent me on my scavenger hunt he did tell me not to use grade 8 bolts and to only use 5 grade as 8 grade are too brittle and tend to crack and break. I guess what I need to know is what size bolts you ended up using, Where does one find them and were you aware that Ivo insists that Grade 8 are too brittle to use. Ken, I really need your input here, everything is on hold till I can find the right bolts. If you reply I am sure I will have many more questions on the Ivo. It is tough to be a pioneer, but tag your it! Any help will be appreciated.

[KenSandyEggo]

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/

Brandon, if they don't have them in stock, they'll get them for you in a couple weeks. I don't know enough about the different grade bolts to comment on them. There has been previous discussion here. I don't know what length I got. You'll have to measure somehow. Put a screwdriver or something through all the holes and add on for the threads. They don't use the head of the bolt in the measurement. You just measure the shank from under the head all the way to the end of the threads. I'll be at my hangar all day on Tuesday and I'll look to see if I still have the receipt or bag floating around. I doubt it, but I'll take a look and you might get lucky. Or.......you could contact Genuine Aircraft Hardware and give them my name and tell them you need the same bolts that I last ordered.

[route66]

Ken Thanks for the link. I called them and they don't have record of your bolt purchase and don't have a grade 5 bolt in the 5 1/2" size needed. They do have it in grade 8. I called Ivoprop again and actually talked to Ivo who said that the grade 8 bolts were too brittle and not to use them. I will keep my scavenger hunt for bolts going and thought you would want to know what I have found. If you happen to be taking your prop off, you might want to take a look at the Allen head bolts you have to make sure they are not grade 8. Ivo seems to have a problem with them although I am sure all his calculations are with shorter bolts than we are using, but he knows more than I do. I did mount my prop with the grade 8 so I could build the bracket for the brush housing and hope someday to find the recommended bolts or be assured the 8's are fine. How is your mount for the pitch switch working? I am planning something similar to yours but if you see something you would have changed. Let me hear it. Thanks,

[KenSandyEggo]

I don't understand why they can't order AN bolts for you. They did for me. That's what you want.

[route66]

Ken, I called General Aircraft again today and they won't special order. They must have changed that part of their service. I did talk to Ivo again and he now told me that NAS1351-06-80 are only grade 8. Wish they hadn't sent on my wild goose chase to find grade 5 as they don't exist. Found some Grade 8 at Copper State. They should be here in a couple days. Thanks for your help.

[KenSandyEggo]

They must have changed their policy then within the last few months. Were you talking to the "AN" department or the "Grade" department? Maybe they're separate. They're the biggest supplier of aircraft-grade bolts around.

[route66]

Ken, I have no idea what they used to be, but when I called with my discription of the bolt the customer service person told me to go to their website and see if I could identify it and if they had it it would be listed. I did research what I needed and found what are the appropriate #'s and called back only to get someone else who said they don't have it and they do not special order. I even tried to backdoor with two differant emails. one just descibing the bolt I needed and the other requesting the bolts as I had researched. I did get a nice e-mail from Danielle saying they did not stock that bolt and their suppliers were out also and I should try elsewhere to locate. The other e-mail I received asked me to go to their website to identify the bolts needed and then resubmit my request. Hey I learned more bolt terms and did find what I needed from Copperstate using the Genuine Aircraft Hardware website. They might be the biggest Aircraft Bolt Supply place, but their customer service needs some work. I found what I needed and again thank you for your help. Beware, While I have premounted the prop I still need to do the wiring, switch mount and will have a lot more questions. Thanks for being there. Maybe I should start a new thread,
"KEN, HELP!".
I'll be back!

[KenSandyEggo]

That's just weird. I ordered bolts for my Prince and then for the IVO and got good service both times. I had to wait a few weeks on both orders as they didn't have them in stock, but they got them for me. Maybe there needs to be a new bolt supplying company founded.......I can see it now......"Ken's Extra-Long Prop Bolt Company."

[route66]

I like it! Kelp Bolt Company or you can add Ken's HONEST Extra Long Bolt Company and we will be back to K-HELP! I can see the website now, K-HELP.com and everything will be great till you become the largest and best bolt company and forget what got you there. It's all good! Thanks again.

[CLS447]

I think that IVO should be able to supply the proper bolts but then again it is really only the RAF that needs them that long.

If Raf had them , they would probably cost $100 each!

I am installing the RAF tailwheel mount on my Air Command....It cost me $85 for the aluminum piece & $15 for the axle.

I should be posting this on the RAF thread because I would like others opinions.

In their manual they tell you to loctite the axle & install it so the wheel slides on the axle from the left side , facing the rear.

How many have done it this way? The direction of rotation would possibly loosen the axle.

If it were flipped it would be self tightening. Also , why do they have you cut the bottom of the keel out? Is this necessary?

One more thing.... It seem that the threads are too long, this would mean that the tailwheel bearing would be running on the axle thread......far from ideal !

OK lets hear from you guys !

Todd could you put this under the RAF thread also ?

[scottessex]

I had to get extra long metric bolts, and I went to "Fastenall" and picked them up, for about $1 each, this of course is after I ordered them from Warp Drive for $18 AND THEY WERE TOO SHORT!

http://www.fastenal.com/web/home.ex