Tim Verroi demos his G-force landing gear at Bensen Days 2008

[Timchick]

Here's Tim Verroi demoing his G-force landing gear on his Butterfly gyro at Bensen Days 2008. Tim's Butterfly has a Rotax 618 on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_CM9ELNwdc

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[Passin' Thru]

Here's Tim Verroi demoing his G-force landing fear on his Butterfly gyro at Bensen Days 2008. Tim's Butterfly has a Rotax 618 on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_CM9ELNwdc

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"Landing fear" Tim? A bit of a Freudian slip perhaps? ;)

[Gyro_Kai]

Great demo. I get a fright on every landing approach in this movie.

You must have been driving home a whole trailer full of video cassettes/disks from BD, Tim :)

Kai.

[Timchick]

"Landing fear" Tim? A bit of a Freudian slip perhaps? ;)

Oops. Sorry about that.

.....You must have been driving home a whole trailer full of video cassettes/disks from BD, Tim :)

Kai.

Only 6 or 7 tapes.

[Greg Mitchell]

Tim Verroi,

Great stuff. Looks like you have the skill set there with GFLG. Strap on a more reliable four banger and leaving the pattern should be a breeze.

Thanks Tim C.

Mitch.

[verroi]

Tim Chick your the best. Thanks for the video. I am greatful. My entire family has thouroughly enjoyed watching over and over again. My wife has not seen me fly in so many years. She was thrilled.

Thanks again

Tango Victor

[verroi]

Thanks Mitch. Im so in love with this machine. The Dominator is out and the new love of my life is a Butterfly. The Dominator is for sale and will be until its gone. I am stronly considering the 912 convertion for this baby. And just so you know, I do acationally leave the pattern.......laugh

Tango Victor

[Greg Mitchell]

"And just so you know, I do acationally leave the pattern.......laugh".:hail:

Funny stuff Tango Victor....good thing I dont believe everything I'm told eh!:ohwell:

Tim if you can afford it, why not.:whoo: Add the Freedom Extender tanks and the 912 MLS,........ where could you not fly then! :smokin:

I did hear you were once a Caterpillar but now a Butterfly.:D

Morphing is addictive.;)

You looked like you were having a blast. Great Flying.

Mitch.

[verroi]

You know Mitch I was always told by my instructor never, never, never fly over anything that you dont want to land on, In a 2-stroke that is. Ive been flying for 13 years and have had 11 engine outs in 2- stroke machines.

I will admit cross countrys for me with 2 strokes are nerve racking so I stay in the patter in Beaufort because if I leave there is only water and marsh everywhere and I mean everywhere.

My first engine out, I took it in the drink, sheered the mast off just above my head and totally destroyed my machine. 2 tides came in over it before I got it out. Spent 8 months rebuilding it. Actually Maxie Wildes did all the work. Anyway so in Beaufort it is pattern work only, but not a standard one. I have crazy fun and draw a crowd most of the time. But at Bensen Days Im always in the fields

The 912 conversion would really open the world of cross country up to me with confidence. Actually I flew my new 912 Dominator today for a solid hr over nothing but marsh and water. 10ft off the deck and 75-80mph at 4500 rpm. Amazing fun and really didnt worry to much.

Anyway I was having a blast at Bensen Days. These things are the bomb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MrGrey]

Tim, don't get too attached to it!! I will need one of those in the future!! LOL... glad to see you are havin a blast with two gyros... and awesome performance at Bensen Days.. I enjoyed watching every landing

[Timchick]

Tim,
Sounds like you need to keep the Dominator for x-country flying and the Butterfly for doing the crowd pleaser demos.

[verroi]

Matt,

I super enjoyed watching you fly as well. We talked about it at wrens and brought it to life at Bensen Days.

Tim,

You dont know how many people have told me that!

[Greg Mitchell]

G'Day Tim,

All good common sense stuff Tim.

Mate after reading about 11 engine outs, I can imagine how a more reliable four banger would be very comforting. Having a bit of solid ground to land on helps!

I have always liked the Dominator and it was Ernie's (and others) work on re-configuring gyros to the modern new generation gyros we have today, that in the end led me towards what Larry (and others) were doing with AC and eventually the prototype Butterfly.

I am headed for an Aurora but will morph thru to a Monarch first, changing out the 503 for a 582 this winter. I have had a set of GFLG shocks here forever and will likely add the landing gear after I install the new engine.

Allan is presently installing his MLS on his Monarch and Daj is just finishing his Monarch build. Both have GFLG on their gyros.

I'm real pleased you are enjoying the flying no matter what the Brand or make. Gyros are 'magic' flying machines.

I used to have a slogan attached to my signature.....GYROS! TO MUCH FUN TO BE LEGAL!

Cheers,

Mitch.

[GyroRon]

Tim, if you aren't willing to fly cross country, to me that is the same as " never leaves the pattern"

To date I know of only one cross country you have taken in a gyro and that was in the Monarch and you had little scare on that one so who knows how many more years will go by before you will finally make that Lunch at Sebring flight with me.... :)

I have been to your airport twice, and I agree, flying around there it is probably best to stay in the pattern, even with a 912S... Those have quit on people too! ;)

I think I do agree with Matt, I think ideally you should keep both gyros, and I know you can afford the both of em so just enjoy the fruits of your labor and keep em both! Even though this Mitch fellow thinks I don't like Butterflys and Larry Neals stuff, I would love to have a Monarch like yours for showing off at the fly-ins.... but at the same time if I had your deep pockets I would also appreciate having that sweet Dominator too for flying places a little further away and for more comfortable wintertime flying.

Later dude

[verroi]

Now Ronster,

how soon you forget. Just last year I flew with you and many others to Sebring for a meal. I flew the gyro that matt now owns and You took your tandom machine and flew way out over that body of water prior to getting to Sebring. Do you remember

What say you to that.

[Greg Mitchell]

Even though this Mitch fellow thinks I don't like Butterflys and Larry Neals stuff,:lie::drama::lie: I would love to have a Monarch like yours for showing off at the fly-ins.... :lol:

Now Ronster,

This Mitch fellow, never said you dont like Butterflys and Larry Neal's stuff.
What I did say was that you were a Monarch Wannabe........which seems to be validated by the last part of your sentence above.:whip:

By the way Ron I enjoyed watching you fly your homebuilt and I did previously congratulate you on your build. I have no problem with you, though I am worried about your short term memory loss:lol:

Fly Safe

Mitch.

[GyroRon]

Now Ronster,

how soon you forget. Just last year I flew with you and many others to Sebring for a meal. I flew the gyro that matt now owns and You took your tandom machine and flew way out over that body of water prior to getting to Sebring. Do you remember

What say you to that.
Don't remember you making that trip in my old Dominator.... Guess I am loosing memmory :Cry:

But how about this, as a general rule of thumb, do you generally make cross country flights in your gyros?

[GyroRon]

Even though this Mitch fellow thinks I don't like Butterflys and Larry Neals stuff,:lie::drama::lie: I would love to have a Monarch like yours for showing off at the fly-ins.... :lol:

Now Ronster,

This Mitch fellow, never said you dont like Butterflys and Larry Neal's stuff.
What I did say was that you were a Monarch Wannabe........which seems to be validated by the last part of your sentence above.:whip:

By the way Ron I enjoyed watching you fly your homebuilt and I did previously congratulate you on your build. I have no problem with you, though I am worried about your short term memory loss:lol:

Fly Safe

Mitch.

Mitch, I like the G force landing gear for the showing off abilities it allows, sure I would like to have one. Of course if I had my way I would have the G force gear on a Dominator like Tims.... Best of both worlds in my opinion.

[Greg Mitchell]

Fair Enough!:yo:

[Friendly]

How far is your cross country trip ? Tim I like your Butterfly as well

[Heron]

Training with new set of features should not be considered showing off.
If you don´t adapt to the G-Force you can´t use it right when it is needed.
It is a different approach and landing all together!
Enough for sour grapes . . .go buy one and have an airgasm . . .
Heron

[verroi]

Ron,

No as a general rule I dont do cross countrys. But why do you care. I am a quick fix flyer. 20 to 30 min adrenalin fixes. So whats so wrong with that. I dont really have any cross country places to fly to for any reason so why just do one. I'd be interested to know just how many of us do cross countrys every time we get in our gyro. I'd bet that most of us just fly around our area for a quick flight.

Who will agree with me and get Ron off my back about this cross country stuff.

Friendly

Glad you like my new Butterfly. It is everything Ive ever wanted in a Gyro. Hope you get to experience one in flight one day.

Heron,

Amen to the adapting part of the G Force landing gear. In the first three hrs of flight I almost turned it over 5 times. It definatly takes getting used to. But once learned theres no going back from whence you came. ie....flying a Dominator instead!

[Timchick]

Hey Tim, How's this for an idea? Since you also have an airplane you could relocate one of your gyros to an airport with better flying terrain around it than yours. Then you can fly your airplane there and take your gyro on flights away from the airport. How's that sound?

[Greg Mitchell]

I'll help out Tim.
I agree a good majority are blappin laps and doing the odd 20-25 minutes out of circuit stuff in a designated training area, then back again.

I flew my first 'cross country' at 6 hrs solo 25 miles there and same back and went to 2400'. Later I flew across the Tamar River and over my house then back again.

BUT 95% of all my flying is around the home paddock (local strip).

Now at 40 hrs I'm putting a 582 on so I can go further with a tad more confidence. And keep up with my ole mate Nugde who flys an XAir with 618 rotax.

Again, I dont want to start butting heads with Ron, but his memory is a worry. Way back GFLG was a gimmick and Doms already had the ducks nuts with what Ron said was 'drop and stop' suspension. So why would you want GFLG then anyway.

Tim's right...why do you care anyway Ron? This is Tims deal with GFLG and his excitement and ours is diminished by this continual discussion about Dominator Vs Butterfly and how Tango Victor does or does not fly, or why.

Let's agree Dominators and Monarchs ROCK!

Mitch.

[verroi]

Tim Chick

It is a great idea. Mike Bantum said that I could leave the Dominator at his place and fly down and do the florida fields with him anytime I wanted.

I must admit the more i fly the Dominator the more I think I might be jumping the gun selling it so quickly. But if one must go it will be the Dominator. I quess I just really need to determine if one must go.

Greg

We have an accord!

[MrGrey]

Ron,

No as a general rule I dont do cross countrys. But why do you care. I am a quick fix flyer. 20 to 30 min adrenalin fixes. So whats so wrong with that. I dont really have any cross country places to fly to for any reason so why just do one. I'd be interested to know just how many of us do cross countrys every time we get in our gyro. I'd bet that most of us just fly around our area for a quick flight.

Who will agree with me and get Ron off my back about this cross country stuff.

Friendly

Glad you like my new Butterfly. It is everything Ive ever wanted in a Gyro. Hope you get to experience one in flight one day.

Heron,

Amen to the adapting part of the G Force landing gear. In the first three hrs of flight I almost turned it over 5 times. It definatly takes getting used to. But once learned theres no going back from whence you came. ie....flying a Dominator instead!

Tim, to be honest with ya regarding cross country flyin, I consistently fly 60+ miles at a time out over the great plains of Indiana. I especially enjoy going with my buddy Nick Costa. Yet I also spend a lot of time over the runway. I think that as long as you enjoy flying that is all that matters. I cannot think of many people that come back after flying with a bigger smile than you do. There is only one reason we fly, that is because we enjoy it... and that is the only one you need.

[GyroRon]

You know Greg, I have known Tim since 2001. And have flown at Bensen Days and Rotors over Carolina fly-ins every year with him since 2001. What he is not saying is how I and others in our group have asked him repeatedly to fly with us to one place or another at these fly-ins and he would reply that he doesn't do cross country flights in his gyros.

Yes my memmory is starting to slip apparently and I forgot he flew to Sebring last year at Bensen Days 07.

And yes, you and Tim are right... it is non of my business how he flys.

My point of it all was to counter what you percieved as Tims decision to sell his Dominator over his Monarch as Tims decision that the Monarch was the superior gyro. In another thread you beat around the bush, but basically said just that. My point was that I think I know Tim better than you, and my take on the whole thing was that Tim is just having fun with the G force gear and the stop and drop landings it allows, that otherwise, if the Monarch had regular gear on it I believe he would much rather have the Dominator. I believe - or believed really - that Tim would get bored with the stop and drop landings and see that his Dominator out performs the Monarch and has a safer engine to boot and he would keep the Dominator in the end.

And in the end it is just a waste of your time to read this, Tims time to read this, my time to write it, and forum bandwidth, because in the end it doesn't really matter what I think because like I said above, it is none of my business in the first place, and to me it really honestly doesn't matter what you or Tim or anyone else thinks about any of this, as far as what gyro is better or what gyro Tims keeps or sells or whether Tim will fly cross country or not and so on....

So as far as Tim goes I am done discussing Tim.

Again, I dont want to start butting heads with Ron, but his memory is a worry. Way back GFLG was a gimmick and Doms already had the ducks nuts with what Ron said was 'drop and stop' suspension. So why would you want GFLG then anyway.

The GFLG is a gimmick. There is only very extremely rare circumstances in real world flight where the G force gear would be critical to a safe landing. Elsewise it is a gimmick to have fun with, either by showing off cool looking landings to other pilots or just for flying by yourself and making yourself smile at how your doing landings that would hurt a normal gyro. The G force gear is absolutely heavier and far more drag than regular gear, and these Cons I think outweight the Pros as far as really needing the G force gear in a true emergency landing. Elsewise it is mainly a Gimmick, and back when it first came out it was NOT a suspension that offered a smooth ride and cushioned ride for taxi and takeoff, but was touted as one anyway, and that was the reasoning for my posts a year or two ago about the G force, was that it WASN'T a true Suspension....

Now it appears Larry has added a coil over shock inside the G force gear leg and now you have both the G force stop and drop, and a smooth ride once on the ground. And because of that I think the G force gear is now a very good thing, and probably the best suspension option on the market. Certainly better than what Ernie has on the Dominator.

Why would I want G force gear? Same Reason Tim Verroi likes the G force gear on his gyro.

[verroi]

Matt,

I vote for you as President!

Ron,

Your still my good friend and confidant! Have we really been flying together since 2001?

[Friendly]

Ron, How far is the Sebring cross country. I am interested in what the other 582s are doing.
Tim
have you thought about swapping engines? 4 stroke the fly and destroke the dom.
Also what happened to cause you to think it might turn over when you were learning to operate the gforce. I have a friend building a Butterfly right now.

[GyroRon]

30 miles each way. On the 17th there is a fly-in Barry and I are going to that is 100 miles away, each way. We flew our gyros there last year.

[Resasi]

If and when I do manage to get a gyro back to Kenya which is my intention, then the latest gear Larry is doing would be a high priority. Long cross country's over African bush and a gear like that is going to give some definite peace of mind.

[Heron]

Better have it than don´t.
Disagree on the rock thing . . .Monarchs rock and roll Dominators only rock.
I wish we could test them side by side without the features, just plain machines, I think they will match each other and maybe a little advantage for the tall tail.
Ron needs to know the rules of debate, we always debang issues and try to stick them to you . . .how rude of you Habib!
Heron :D

[verroi]

Friendly,

I was just unschooled in the art of landing this paticular gear. Flaring way to nose high so at touch down my attitude was way exagerated to the high side. There the scare begins and the over controlling insued where by i almost and I mean really almost turned that baby over. Scared me way bad, but I kep at it. I finally after struggleing for 3 to 4 hrs got a friend with a radio to watch and radio to me what he was seeing. Once he told me that my angle of attack was the problem I just flattened that baby out on my next flare and almost instantainiously the wierd sensations I was getting on landing disappeared and the joy began. Just another 4 or 5 landings and I was in the groove. i've never looked back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Butterflys or Bust!!!!

[Greg Mitchell]

Hey Ron,

Perception and memory, two things that neeed work.

Where have I ever said Monarch was better than Dominator? I have never claimed such a thing.

I dont believe I ever used the word SUSPENSION, I thought I only ever used the words G Force Landing Gear..GFLG. I recollect you and some of your colleages used this arguement to support some of your claims about the GFLG. If I am wrong please paste so I can address my memory loss.

Tim is your very good friend and I dont presume to know how he or you think or whether he loves his Butterfly more than his Dominator or not. I dont care.

All I care about is getting the facts right and this is where you and I have banged heads. You named the wrong shock in GFLG initially. You claimed easy to back engineer. (where is it?) You claimed Tim was getting rid of the Monarch. You claimed I was a Paul Hogan wannabe, when in fact I always wanted to be SpiderMan. You claim I said this and that and all I do is post about Butterfly product with no claims as to their being the best of the best. Shi t! Everything is a competition with you Ron and yes I do 'jarr' up just like you do.

Oh and if GFLG is a GIMMICK, then I guess the same could be saidof the Dominators STOP and DROP landing gear for exactly the same reasons you claim GFLG is a GIMMICK. Have you posted anything to that effect yet, I doubt it.

Anyway, again, I am glad you now want a fully suspensionised form of GFLG even if you see it as a GIMMICK.

Autogiros used to land like GFLG Monarch equipped gyros land, so Cierva designed the first gyros with gimmicky landing gear. Did I read that somehwere in the history books or in one of you posts somewhere Ron?

Tim I'm glad we have an accord. I especially enjoyed reading about your flying your Dominator over the marsh country the other morning and enjoying it so much. MORE POWER TO YOU!

Mitch.

[GyroRon]

Mitch, you may have never said a Monarch or Butterfly was better than a Dominator... but you certainly have made comments that would suggest that. For example some of your comments about Tim wanting to sell his Dominator, suggesting that he was doing so because of the gyros in his " fleet " the Dominator was subpar to his Monarch.

You may have never called the G force gear " Suspension " ...... But when it first made news a year or two ago ( maybe longer ago, I don't honestly remember how long it has been around ) People in general were discussing the GFLG as if it WAS a suspension system. And until whenever it was that Larry decided to add a coil over shock inside the GFLG it was NOT a true suspension. The fact that the old version of the GFLG was not a suspension was not a big deal to me, I just discussed it so as to make sure everyone was clear there is a difference between the old version GFLG and a true suspension like the Dominator offers.

I was told firsthand by either Iven C, or Chris Wilson that the GFLG shock was a MONROE SENSITRAC GAS SHOCK, modified into the GFLG strut. I believed what I was told as both have had personal contact with Larry, especially Chris. ( Ironically it was one of those two guys, Chris I am pretty sure, who told me that Larry asked them SPECIFICALLY Not to let me fly his Monarch.... pretty crappy if you ask me, what a better way to show someone how good your product is than to let them experience it themselves. Oh well )

And yes, for someone with a good machine shop, reverse engineering the GFLG shouldn't be too hard. And before you come at me with comments about " stealing " Larrys ideas, take a look at any gyro.... Almost all are a reverse engineered version of a Bensen.

And yes, Tim told me several times he was very Serious about selling his Monarch prior to Bensen Days. He changed his mind. Like I said for his style of flying, the Monarch suits him better so it is a no brainer really. Ask Tim if he was not in fact wanting to sell the Monarch prior to going to Bensen Days...

I don't even know what you look like, I was making a joke about you being a Paul Hogan wannabe. Are you?

What does " Jarr up " mean?

Dominators " Stop and drop " gear claims are a joke. Most people run their Dominators shocks with too much PSI and the shocks are too stiff to absorb a stop and drop from more than a foot or so. Anything higher and the Dominator could bend or break. I don't promote Dominators gear as having " Stop and Drop " functionality. What the Dominators suspension does do is give you a cushioned ride while in taxi or takeoff, especially on bumpy grass strips.

For the most part the GFLG is exploited ( by the 3 pilots I know that fly it, and all the videos ) as a neat show-off way of landing a gyro. Totally unneeded for safe gyro flight and of little real value 99 percent of the time to someone interested in flying gyros and NOT showing off. Therefore I call it a Gimmick.

Combine the GFLG with the new shock suspension bits and it is less Gimmicky, but still alot of extra tubing and pivot points and so on to add weight and drag and cost for the Stop and drop landing ability.

The Dominators suspension system is not a Gimmick in my opinion. One only needs to taxi or take off in one on a grass strip after doing the same in a non suspension gyro to see what good any brand suspension is. The Stock Butterfly has some kind of rubber donut suspension on the main gear doesn't it? If so I would not call that a gimmick, but GFLG is... that is my opinion.

I don't want GFLG, or else I would already have it or a version of it on one or both of my gyros. I would enjoy having GFLG though... Because when I fly I do like to show-off... And I think that you can do some neat showoff-ish manuvers with a gyro with GFLG that you couldn't safely and repeatedly do in a normal gyro.

Yes, the Early gyros did have gear simular in function to the GFLG....

[Dmorris]

Tim,

You have ALMOST convinced me I want a monarch. I'm sure I would be happy with a Dominator but the susupension on the monarch is way cool. I have a Xenon and love flying it. I do want to add a single place open frame to my hangar.

[Greg Mitchell]

Ron I just read about a guy (honest and explicit in his explainantion, mucho kudos there for him.) who dinged his Dominator. Straight ahead off the end of the runway, all sorts of obsticles and well go read the thread. I dont know how long he was in the air before this happened but it seems to me like he would have had plenty of time for GFLG (type one) to descend and I believe the airshock version would have already extended way sooner.

I suspect that this gimmicky gear not dissimilar in function to what Cierva designed in the very first gyroplanes, should/would/could have prevented this tradgey. OK the guy said he made some mistakes but Hey, Larry designed the GFLG for just such an occassion and because we are not all perfect.
Mistakes get made.
Accidents happen!
Any component that reduces the accident rate is in my opinion NOT A GIMMICK!

Mitch.

When some one 'jarrs up' they are quickly, ready to defend their position. I dont know where the expression originated, maybe it has something to do with 'jarr heads'

[GyroRon]

Mitch, I think the GFLG may could have helped him if he had cut power and flared to a zero airspeed stop.... and then drop to a landing. From his description it sounded like he never really " Landed " but instead he touched down while in a turn and with significant forward ground speed. In this case most if not all gyros are going to flip over. Dominators do not tolerate landing with much forward speed on rough surfaces and they absolutely will not tolerate landing cross controlled or uncorrordinated.

Looking at the new version of the GFLG, I guess you could say it isn't totally a gimmick. It is a true suspension and it does offer some advantages in certain landing scenerios. It is a cool landing gear and like I said I believe it is probably the best suspension offering on the market right now.

[Friendly]

Greg,
I think most people on the forum are glad to the GFLG come out. So what if it address only a small segment of the gyro crashes. That is one segment address. Well trained people have made mistakes or been the victim of circumstances beyond their control. As the landing gears are used, more improvements will continue. In the absence of the Mac, our gyros are heavier and the ox cart landing tubes do not lend themselves to beginner mistakes or bad situations. I cannot speak for the Dominator's, but there have been enough of Duck-walks to say, there is room for improvement. Not that it is not a good design, but there could be a better.
GFLG will grow in popularity when a few more well known and respected pilots such as Tim start supporting the ideal.

[Friendly]

Tim and Tim,
I guess you two are going to have to make a new video and start a new thread. It looks like we have turned this one into a discussion about landing gears.
Tim V, thanks for the input about the "amost lost it" landings. I heard my friend say that he had to learn to land it retracted, before he could learn to land it sprung or extended. There is a question , I have about that, but I will wait until someone else brings it open. We have enough can of worms open already. I have really enjoy the pictures of the Monanarch I have received from my friend. That CNC millings sure does put my grinder and buffer to shame.

[verroi]

DMorris,

Stop thinking about it. Do the Monarch thing!!! You will never regret it....NEVER!!!!' look lots of people can Dominate but not everybody can become a Butterfly....hehehehe. It is by my best estimation the most fun I've ever experienced in Gyro flight for fun. It has brought back to me the original JOY i first experience with gyro flight back in 1995. Uforic thats what it is. Stable, Strong, Forgiving, Fun and most of all USABLE!!!!!! Whether it impresses your friends or saves your but let it do something for you!!



Friendly,

Your welcome for the imput. I to strapped mine up after almost flipping that baby but it was because I scared the fool out of myself not to learn to fly it that way first. Once I regained the nerve I unstrapped and went at it again. Its the greatest thing since slice bread!!!! I want to be buried with my Butterfly. GFLG or Bust!!!!

[Heron]

When someone jarr up we loose!
I would like to see Ron flying the Golden and if we did not have that problem at BD07 he would, all opinions matter to me and I know Ron is not as hard headed as it seems here on the forum with his Cyber Persona.
Tim V. has done it and liked it so what is wrong with that? I honestly believe all that can experience the G-Force will keep it and once changed to Monarch, the Dominator will become second best.
Some like Ferrari some like Lamborghini but the first is a better machine.
Been always opinionated Ron some times come out as negative, he is just exercising his right to free speech and needs no punishment for it.
He will debate untill his lips bleed and will take more time to aknowledege the differences and the reasons for having them.
All gyros will have active suspension in short time, along with short take offs and low noise levels those machines will be very neighborhood friendly and could acomplish the door-to-door task.
But the "penguin people" will always be present! (those who walk away moving their heads side to side) for those we should still be flying Bensens or they machine of choice.
Heron

[Greg Mitchell]

Mitch, I think the GFLG may could have helped him if he had cut power and flared to a zero airspeed stop.... and then drop to a landing. From his description it sounded like he never really " Landed " but instead he touched down while in a turn and with significant forward ground speed. In this case most if not all gyros are going to flip over. Dominators do not tolerate landing with much forward speed on rough surfaces and they absolutely will not tolerate landing cross controlled or uncorrordinated.

Looking at the new version of the GFLG, I guess you could say it isn't totally a gimmick. It is a true suspension and it does offer some advantages in certain landing scenerios. It is a cool landing gear and like I said I believe it is probably the best suspension offering on the market right now.

He turned Ron because he felt he had no other option. GFLG would give him that other option....no Gimmick there!
Your second paragraph is confusing to me are you saying:

GFLG IS THE BEST SUSPENSION ON THE MARKET RIGHT NOW :peace::peace::peace:AND SO IT'S NOT TOTALLY A GIMMICK!

It's either a gimmick or its not! :boink:

Bit like digging the proverbial hole deeper and deeper....:bored:

Read Tim's last post and tell me again why you or I should not draw some conclusions here.........remember I am not and do not bag the Dominator (you seem to do that well enough on your own).Dominators " Stop and drop " gear claims are a joke. Most people run their Dominators shocks with too much PSI and the shocks are too stiff to absorb a stop and drop from more than a foot or so. Anything higher and the Dominator could bend or break. and then The Dominators suspension system is not a Gimmick in my opinion.

I am a Spiderman wannabe, do you actually read all of my posts.

I let you fly my Monarch next year Ron when I have finished my upgrades. Yes butterfly has shock suspension.

Yes, the Early gyros did have gear simular in function to the GFLG.... Blood gimmicky crap eh Ron;) Cierva need his head read! What was he doing putting gimmicky crap on the very first autogiros. It's just not cricket!:boom:

Fly safe.

Mitch.

[GyroRon]

If Robert had done what he should have done he would have flared to a stop while still straight. He did not need GFLG to be able to do that and do it without damage. If there was a strong chance of landing in a ditch with landing straight, GFLG would have not faired any better than a straight axle like on a Bensen. You would know this if you personally had more experience Mitch.... and that is not a dig at you, that is a simple fact.

And yes, as far as a suspension goes, sure the GFLG seems to offer the best suspension, as in you get a suspension along with the stop and drop ability to use if you really needed it.

What makes it still somewhat of a gimmick in my book is that the people I see flying it are using it in a gimmicky way. Same as say a Jump takeoff gyro like the Gyrhino.... It is just as complex as a helicopter and has no real advantage over a helicopter, It is a gyro that can jump into the air, which is more or less a gimmick.

Some cars these days come with airconditioned glove boxes, or power folding rear seats, and so on.... all are gimmicks, things that are nice but not really needed.

The GFLG has some safety advantages in certain times so I would say it is less of a gimmick than a chilled glovebox

When Dominators first came to the market, 90 percent of the gyros out there had totally rigid gear. If you came to a stop and dropped in a Bensen, it would stress the tubing and either right then or sometime later the axle would fail, causing a tore up gyro in the process. RFD used a suspension with a few inches of travel and set up properly, you could flare a foot or two high and drop it in without a problem. But the fact remains that most Dominator pilots over inflate their shocks and there is little give in them to safely do a stop and drop from more than a foot high. Still a advantage over a rigid axle gyro, or even one with the rubber donut suspension, but nothing like what GFLG offers.

What the Dominator suspension does offer is a very smooth ride on the ground. Especially on a semi rough grass strip. Trying to takeoff in a Bensen or Aircommand, then trying to takeoff in a Dominator on the same strip is like the difference between driving a stiffly sprung commercial truck and a luxury car such as a Lexus or Benz.

I challenge you to find a commecially produced sport gyro that has as smooth of a ride as a Dominator. I know you won't find one. The smooth ride is what the Dominator gear is all about, not stop and drop landings. Because of this I believe it is not a gimmick. The smooth ride allows you to operate the gyro out of fields and rough strips that other gyros would not be able to operate out of. Ask Scott Essex about the difference flying a Dominator makes on his strip if you want to

Aren't you a little too big ( weight and girth wise ) to be Spiderman? :)

The one thing you have said that I think is most interesting is about the early gyros, never really thought about it too much, but your right, they did appear to have gear designed for a stop and drop type landing. I wonder if this came about because the earliest gyros had pitch control via elevators and at slow airspeeds they might have lost some pitch control authority, and the soft gear kept the gyro from being destroyed. I have a model RC gyro with pitch controlled via elevator and the landing gear really takes a pounding when you don't land it just perfect.

[Greg Mitchell]

Ron

Everyone I have spoken to about this statement reckons it's just plain wrong.

If Robert had done what he should have done he would have flared to a stop while still straight. He did not need GFLG to be able to do that and do it without damage. If there was a strong chance of landing in a ditch with landing straight, GFLG would have not faired any better than a straight axle like on a Bensen. You would know this if you personally had more experience Mitch.... and that is not a dig at you, that is a simple fact.

The strong chance of landing in the ditch could have been negated with GFLG by hauling back and doing a high flare and dropin long before getting to the ditch. You cant do that in a non GFLG equipped gyro.

You would know this if you personally had more experience Mitch.... and that is not a dig at you, that is a simple fact.

Ron you've been dumpin on me since I pulled you up on misrepresenting the landing gear. I'm used to it.

You would know more about GFLG and what it was capable of If you could find someone to let you fly their Monarch..........and that's not a dig at you Ron it's a plain fact you have NO EXPERIENCE with GFLG , that is a simple fact.

Aren't you a little too big ( weight and girth wise ) to be Spiderman?

Thought you said you didn't even know what I looked like. We do have lots of large fat hairy spiders down under.

Cant remember who it was, Scotty Essex or Screw who talked about 5 foot stop and drops in the Dominator???

With MLS it is important to remember that the ATGFLG is only on the ground for 1, 2, 3, Viola! Youre in the air. I challenge you to find a gyro out there with better ride comfort than that. Ha Ha Ha!

Mate the new Aurora Butterfly is gonna shrink your 'nads' to the size of peas, if Monarch gets under your skin so bad.:whoo:

It's good to be able to discuss these subjects with a little bit of comedic relief dont you agree.:peace:

I keep reading Tim V's last post,

Stop thinking about it. Do the Monarch thing!!! You will never regret it....NEVER!!!!' look lots of people can Dominate but not everybody can become a Butterfly....hehehehe. It is by my best estimation the most fun I've ever experienced in Gyro flight for fun. It has brought back to me the original JOY i first experience with gyro flight back in 1995. Uforic thats what it is. Stable, Strong, Forgiving, Fun and most of all USABLE!!!!!! Whether it impresses your friends or saves your but let it do something for you!!
blows me away.
Its the greatest thing since slice bread!!!! I want to be buried with my Butterfly. GFLG or Bust!!!!

Now I am on a mission and a time frame "bring back the original joy" to get the 582 installed and put GFLG on my morphing Butterfly. :whoo:

Fly safe

Mitch.

[Resasi]

Reminds me a bit of when trailing link gear first came out on F/W exec jets. People thought it a gimmick and brought up the argument of cost and weight. Two major reasons why equipment is, or is not, on flying machines. They are now almost standard.

Thing is whatever aircraft in is, Bensen to A380 one thing is a given; whenever you take off there has to be a landing (of some kind). The trailing link gear made for softer smoother landings with more controllability. Reduced impact on the machine, less stress wear and tear, more margin for error, greater confidence in landing in a tight spot when required.

Seems whatever gyro it is, suspension is an important part of the machine. The G-force, Carter strut, whatever is coming, is a step forward in terms of gyro safety. Other lighter types of this sort of landing gear will come, but it certainly is a area where advances will always be welcome.

[GyroRon]

Ron

Everyone I have spoken to about this statement reckons it's just plain wrong.

If Robert had done what he should have done he would have flared to a stop while still straight. He did not need GFLG to be able to do that and do it without damage. If there was a strong chance of landing in a ditch with landing straight, GFLG would have not faired any better than a straight axle like on a Bensen. You would know this if you personally had more experience Mitch.... and that is not a dig at you, that is a simple fact.

The strong chance of landing in the ditch could have been negated with GFLG by hauling back and doing a high flare and dropin long before getting to the ditch. You cant do that in a non GFLG equipped gyro.

You would know this if you personally had more experience Mitch.... and that is not a dig at you, that is a simple fact.

Ron you've been dumpin on me since I pulled you up on misrepresenting the landing gear. I'm used to it.

You would know more about GFLG and what it was capable of If you could find someone to let you fly their Monarch..........and that's not a dig at you Ron it's a plain fact you have NO EXPERIENCE with GFLG , that is a simple fact.

Aren't you a little too big ( weight and girth wise ) to be Spiderman?

Thought you said you didn't even know what I looked like. We do have lots of large fat hairy spiders down under.

Cant remember who it was, Scotty Essex or Screw who talked about 5 foot stop and drops in the Dominator???

With MLS it is important to remember that the ATGFLG is only on the ground for 1, 2, 3, Viola! Youre in the air. I challenge you to find a gyro out there with better ride comfort than that. Ha Ha Ha!

Mate the new Aurora Butterfly is gonna shrink your 'nads' to the size of peas, if Monarch gets under your skin so bad.:whoo:

It's good to be able to discuss these subjects with a little bit of comedic relief dont you agree.:peace:

I keep reading Tim V's last post,

Stop thinking about it. Do the Monarch thing!!! You will never regret it....NEVER!!!!' look lots of people can Dominate but not everybody can become a Butterfly....hehehehe. It is by my best estimation the most fun I've ever experienced in Gyro flight for fun. It has brought back to me the original JOY i first experience with gyro flight back in 1995. Uforic thats what it is. Stable, Strong, Forgiving, Fun and most of all USABLE!!!!!! Whether it impresses your friends or saves your but let it do something for you!!
blows me away.
Its the greatest thing since slice bread!!!! I want to be buried with my Butterfly. GFLG or Bust!!!!

Now I am on a mission and a time frame "bring back the original joy" to get the 582 installed and put GFLG on my morphing Butterfly. :whoo:

Fly safe

Mitch.

Go back and reread Roberts account of his accident. He wasn't very high off the ground or going very fast. In those conditions he was likely already in a nose high attitude. He could have flared to a stop in any gyro in that situation and landed. If the ditch was a factor he could have stayed on the power and flown past the ditch and then landed.

In your GFLG mindset he can just land anywhere and anytime, but what I am trying to tell you is properly trained, a good pilot could do what needed to be done to get that gyro down without damage and without G force gear. Don't you think Birdy would have been able to put his gyro down in the same cirmustances without G force gear?


As far as not flying a GFLG gyro your right, but do I need to fly one to know what it can do? I have seen 3 other pilots fly them in person right in front of me and I have seen all the videos of Matt Pearson and whoever else Larry uses in his videos.


It was Screw talking about 5 foot stop and drops in his Dominator ( which is now my dominator... ) And Screw, bless his heart, is not very experienced gyro wise and especially Dominator wise. A stop and drop in his Dominator from 5-6 feet would probably not bend anything, especially landing onto a soft grass strip, but would still be one hell of a hard landing. And the reason this particular gyro can pull off a stop and drop like this is because it has the empty weight of a single seat gyro, but has extremely oversized rotors ( 400 lbs empty with 27 foot blades ) so it has alot of energy in the blades and it is very floaty.... it can come into a landing extremely slow due to the light loading of the blades. Screw has very little experience in normal Dominators and doesn't or didn't understand that a 400 lb gyro with 23 or 24 foot rotors would drop hard and probably bend something if you tried a stop and drop from 5-6 foot high.

I can't wait for you to come to America and let me show you how fast a gyro can get in the air without fancy MLS systems and GFLG's... :usa: I can get my own gyros blades up to liftoff speed with no wind and just my hydro pre rotator, with the 618 and 72 inch prop I can be in the air in 100 feet

I would comment on Tims comment, but I said I would not comment on Tim anymore. Like I said, I think you need to get to know Tim better. I will agree though, that he was having fun with his new gyro.

[Heron]

I wonder if Ron disregard suspension and its improvements when choosing a motorbike . . .guess not . . .
Also he will never land in a carrier even using Flight Sim because you know . . .he is DA PILOT and needs no stinking landing gear or whatever!
Now lets compare pre-rotators using the same engine and different set ups, ok?
Or lets stop making other gyros alltogether . . .Ron has got the formula and that is that!
C'mon Habib . . .yeld just a little, please?
Heron

[Greg Mitchell]

Habib DaWad.......he he he! Sounds like a foreign militant to me.

GFLG mindset never suggests anyone, could land anywhere, anytime. Come on Ron get a grip Boy! You is a dead set politician in the making.

Robert said:

"I was only about 15 feet above the ground as I went by a group of hangers that are along side of our runway and everything seems normal. Once I cleared the hangers, I was now over open fields (perfect for an emergency landing) when I suddenly realized that I was slowing up and not gaining altitude. Since I was only going 35 mph when I left the runway slowing down was not good! I realized that the wind must have shifted and I decided that I needed to put it down in the field. Unfortunately I was facing a field ditch so I decided, as I was sinking, to try and make a shallow left hand turn, I could not go to the right due to a hog lagoon, that is really all I need to say about that, and then all hell broke loose. My last words as I tried to land were "this is not going to be good". Needless to say I went in nose first."

As with Roberts candid account I also didn't suggest a mistake/s were not made. That is the point! Recovery for a lessor pilot than yourself could have been effected by GFLG and he didn't think he could fly on past the ditch and didnt fancy landing in it cause he obviously doesnt have your skills. So he turns, he makes the wrong choice, GFLG would have given him other options other choices............

OK OK OK, I am wrong! You are right! Ron, always and forever, the definitive word.

Fly Safe

[GyroRon]

please explain what a gflg gyro would have been able to do in roberts accident that a non gflg gyro could not also do..... please!

[Friendly]

Ron,
Nobody can really Monday morning quater back this thing. It gflg is for stop and drop, at higher altitudes then that is what he could have done different than a non gflg. Would that have changed the outcome if he could have landed when he was 20 in the air instead of having to get to 1 foot? Who knows? They are just saying that a 20 foot drop and land was not an option without the gflg. To call something a gimmic that other people see as an extra chance at avoiding an accident is only going to bring out the worse in people. I am not confident that I will make every landing without Murphy showing up. Maybe gflg is not the answer all, but as they have said it is an additional option. When your up to your ass in alligators is just hard as hell to remember your initial objective was to drain the swamp.

[Heron]

Like the Pink Bunny . . .going and going . . .
I planted a tree of IF in my house . . .it almost grew . . .
Ron, if you pick several situations you will see that in most of them you will want to have extra cushion and possibilities of flaring to avoid obstacles ahead of you.
Heron

[verroi]

I dont know what Ron seams to know about me that he thinks others should know while reading or taking in my few but far between post. But whoever reads....know this. I am 100% for real and sold out on the Butterly series of Gyros and its GFLG option.

I personally endorse the claims by "thebutterflyllc.com" company whatever they may be (in there intirety) and testify to its ability to produce a more productive and safe flying activity. More people would and should fly with the GFLG if the opertunity came or comes there way.

All this talk about the GFLG got me fired up.(in an excited way) So today I put my new baby to the test. Today I flared at 15 to 20ft.!!!!!!!!!!. at least 15 to 20 times. Complete stop and drop. No forward speed what so ever. I put that puppy to the test!!

WHO EVER WILL LISTEN...LISTEN TO ME!!!!!!. I speak with a voice of GFLG experience. (over 40 hrs now).

It is all that anyone could think or imagine it to be like and more. It has made me a more Confident pilot and has brought out areas of ability in me that I didn't think I had. It has set me free in a way that is really hard to put into words.

This is not something that wears off with time. It only makes you want desperately for the sun to set and rise again so you can get to another day of flying. You will not tire of having the GFLG and will only land because you know the engine begs for fuel.

The GFLG will change the way you experience and enjoy flight. If you have contimplated having something new or different with hope of it really being something NEW and DIFFERENT then contimplate no more. It lies with the GFLG experience.

I catigorically denie the lableing of "gimmic" to this superbly engineered design. It was well thought out and designed for the safety of the pilot and the further security of experiencing more safe flight.

It only makes sense and could possibly be revolutionary. It will change the way you fly.

You will not return from whence you came. Test me in this!!!!!!

You all know my heart on the matter,

Tim Verroi

[Resasi]

Well certainly seems that the greater confidence Tim has in his landings has made a difference, certainly to him and his attitude towards flying his machine.

"It has made
me a more Confident pilot and has brought out areas of ability in me that I
didn't think I had."

[GyroRon]

Yeap, Tim sure has lot's of spirt in how excited he is about gyro flight. And he sure loves his Monarch.

Bottom line is I will never be able to have a meaningful debate on the internet with you guys, so I will leave you to praise glory to your new savior, the G force landing gear!

[Heron]

Chicken shuit!!!
Pay attention and you will continue on the debate untill someone changes its point of view! That is what debate is for.
You have your points but they don´t apply to the situation, besides you only compare Monarch with Dominator and it should be compared to all gyros.
Other than that, the evolution of a process started with landing short and safer will continue with taking off short and less noise which is one of the FAA´s holy grail right now.
All efforts to provide users with more options and a broader ranges of uses for our hibrid (is there an y?) machines . . .aero terrestrials and biplanes (compound)
So if you want to label it, debate untill you have a clear opinion, chances are your label will more in the nail´s head.
As far as flying GFLG does not make a Monarch better than a Dominator but on landing is a world apart. In the air I think they are pretty close and could not be a notch above each other . . .similar but not equal.
Your Internet manners need a cosmetic revamp . . .just keep been yourself and it will be ok.
Heron
Here´s a label for you Dominator Obssessed (too many s´s)

[GyroRon]

Heron, I am not a chicken $hit.... It is just like talking to a wall with the G force fans out there. To you guys, the G force gear is the cure for all landing accidents and a substitute for good pilotage. I think the G force gear is a good thing, but I will still stick to my guns and in my opinion it is not needed and not as important as you guys make it out to be.

[Passin' Thru]

Heron, I am not a chicken $hit.... It is just like talking to a wall with the G force fans out there. To you guys, the G force gear is the cure for all landing accidents and a substitute for good pilotage. I think the G force gear is a good thing, but I will still stick to my guns and in my opinion it is not needed and not as important as you guys make it out to be.
Ron, (a/k/a Habib Al Awad ;)) I agree with you! Learn to land dead stop correctly and the "elephant trap" landing gear is not really needed! Back in my mighty Mac days before I learned how to build a Mac properly, I had more dead engine landings than I care to remember. I never damaged a machine in any of those landings, and some of them were in seemingly impossible terrain. (of course a little luck never hurts!:p)

Here's my take on the "elephant trap"; It will certainly allow much harder landings without damage to the machine and pilot, but I don't think Larry ever intended that contraption to be a substitute for proper landing technique. Clever lad that he is, I suspect he intended it as an interem step toward "something else" that he hasn't announced yet. Some here think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and it is "interesting", but as I said, I suspect there is more to come.
Please, learn how to properly do off-field landings and don't depend on "technology" to compensate for sloppy training.
Just my dos centovos worth. ;)

[Heron]

Untrue statements both of you!
It is not intended to curtail or neglect training in any way, shape or form.
It is there to save the day when all else fails.
Of couser with it you have to adjust for different landings when landing normal which reinforces training. More is always better in some situations.
Now what is in debate is the different point of views and you must aknowledge those who are not yours.
We say potato you say potato . . . keep on the same track and the light will come.
I know your not CS Habib
Heron

[Heron]

Another view: lets imagine, for the sake of argument, that our machines were all created with active suspensions. Would you remove yours and install a rigid triangular set up?
heron