I think my engine is DEAD

[scottessex]

Well I think my engine finally gave up the ghost, my poor little 65hp arrow 500cc, has died, it damn near tried to kill me too. :eek:
I took the cylinders off, and it has piston and cyl hot spots with metal transfer and bad scoring. Since there are no new parts available, it seems that it is toast.
so between the engine crapping out and causing me to have a rough landing and bend my rotorblades, the gyro will be getting a total rebuild :mad:
I hope to have something put together by ROC, but if not I will still be there.
I sure did have alot of fun with it before it died, I'm just glad it hung in there until after the SX days fly in.

[Chuck Irby]

Scott, I am really sorry to hear the bad news. Does no one manufacture oversize pistons that will work? What about Weisco? What can we do to help? What engine do you want us to be looking for? I assume that you'll build your own engine mounts.

[birdy]

Scott,mate,cum over to Oz and give me a hand muster'n for a year and I'll GIVE you a brand new 912,no more worries. :D

[scottessex]

biggest problem is that there are no parts, I could have pistons made, but then I would still have an engine that is marginal. plus having to custom munufacture parts, every time something breaks, might be expensive. I know of one guy I can check with, but I won't hold my breath. I am going to put the engine back together, it WILL run, I just would not want to fly it, it would be a good airboat engine for a small swamp boat. I do need some info on rotax style engine mounts. I have the suzuki 530, mounts like a rotax, I have a rotax gearbox on it, sooo......unless I come across a good deal on a rotax 582. I just have so much going on right now, I need to prioritize some projects (house) and get rid of others(65 caddy) So I'll have a plan here in a couple of weeks. I'll keep ya posted.

[Chuck Irby]

Thanx Scott. You know there are several of us fairly close by that will be more than willing to help. Just let us know what we can do. We want you back in the air asap. There's a 618 on eBay for $3995 and it seems like it is rebuilt or new. John could finance it for you . . . $50 down and $40 per week with no interest. :D :D

[quadrirotor]

what a pity! :D

[Chuck Irby]

Andre, I wish I understood where you're coming from, but I haven't a clue.

[quadrirotor]

there is a clue!

[quadrirotor]

there is a photo of me before my chirurgical operation!

[Screw]

Screw-In

What can I do to help? I'm in! I know it is non of my business, but I'd rather see you get a good running Rotax or other proven engine in good working order, rather than open up the Suzuki "Can of Worms."

My 2 cents... Call me sometime we'll chat.

screw-Out

[Chuck Irby]

The link to the zero hour 618 on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2484959569&category=26437

[scottessex]

I hear ya, I don't know what I will do for sure yet.

You could find a buyer for my 1965 caddy! :D

Rick says " go with a VW"

[Screw]

Screw-In

I'd go with a bigger one than mine.

Duplicate his set up.

They always have 2130cc VW engines on ebay.

Screw-Out

[Aussie_Paul]

The 618 was my favourite Rotax 2 stroke.

Aussie Paul.:)

[Chuck Irby]

Screw, what's wrong with the Suzuki, and duplicate whose setup? Are you speaking in code? :D

Aussie Paul, my 618 sure has been good thus far.

[Russell]

Chuck you should buy that motor and sell yours The one on e-bay has an electric starter!

[Chuck Irby]

Russ, why would I want to add the weight of the electric starter? :D

[GyroRon]

Scott It may be alot of work to do this right, a total gyro rebuild by the time it is done... But It wouldn't be real hard to make your gyro a drop keel centerline thrust like a Falcon or 3DRV. Then for REAL CHEAP we can find you a junkyard Subaru EJ-22 and get a Direct drive prop adapter from Don Parham and get you back in the air.

If you want to sell the Caddy let me know how much.

[Chuck Irby]

Hmmmm, sounds like a pretty good idea, Ron. How much HP will a stock 130 HP EJ-22 make as a direct drive, and would the extra weight be a problem?

[Russell]

Chuck have you ever started your gyro on pavement and tried to get in it without any help to hold the machine still?? I could never do it. I wish I had put the electric start on. But on the other hand that is one awesome engine you have on the machine now. Never missed a beat. It is hard to get rid of something so reliable.
Russ :eek:

[Brent_Brown]

scott what are going to do with the suzuki 530 if you don't use it now and why not use it I don't think it is a can of worms just another motor. How much of it do you have?
Brent

[Chuck Irby]

Hello again Russ,

Before I soloed, I noticed that problem. I put a 1/2" thick strip of wood in front of each tire. This held the machine till I was ready to taxi. I then just added a little throttle and rode over the wood strips.

Then back in February, I put a centrifugal clutch in the gear box. This allowed me to idle the engine down to around 1800 rpm. I generally start the engine with the first pull of the rope, and the prop never turns till I increase the rpm to 2500. So it is definitely not a problem now, but really never was. In addition, the clutch saves a lot of wear and tear on the gearbox, and maybe the engine too, IMO.

[Rick Whittridge]

Scott, you know real gyro pilots fly with a MAC! :D

[Chuck Irby]

Scott, you could pick up this machine pretty reasonably, I believe. A local friend has it, but will probably never be able to fly again, due to heart problems. It's just sitting in his barn.

[scottessex]

Rick, that's what I have heard :)

Brent, I have a complete 1989 suzuki 530, the only thing it is missing is the exhuast. I have the wiring harness, gauges, radiator, fuel pumps, etc.
I took the top end off, it was only showing 600 miles on the odometer. It is VERY clean on the inside, some carbon on top the piston. I am going to tear down the engine and at least re-ring it and change the gaskets. I have a rotax A box, with the adaptor plate for the suzuki. the gear ratio is 2:1, I will probably have to go with a 2:58 -1 gear.

I even have a manual for this one!

This is the direction I am leaning at this time.

Should I run gearbox up or down?

[Brent_Brown]

I think you will like the suzuki and sounds like you have all you need for it. I would run the box down to rise the CG if you can.
Brent

[scottessex]

I think that will be the easiest way to go right now, I just bought a rotax 582 exhaust off of E-bay a few days ago, so hopefully I will be set up. I think that the arctic cat radiator is a little small, but that should not be a problem.

When I send my prop back to warp drive for inspection (it dug up dirt when I rolled over) I will have them send me a rotax hub if my blades pass inspection.

Does anyone have picture or drawings of a rotax mount??
If not I could probably drive over to Phil Ruffin's and look at his Air Command.

[Chuck Irby]

Scott, I can take pictures of mine for you if you need me to. Just let me know.

[scottessex]

That would help, thanks Chuck. I have an idea how it should be, It is just alot easier to take a look/or picture to see how it actually is attached and braced etc.

[Chuck Irby]

Okay, Scott. The next time I go to the airport, I'll get you some. It'll probably be late today, or no later than tomorrow.

[scottessex]

Cool! If you can't get them in the next couple of days, that is not a problem, I won't be doing any repairs this weekend.

[Russell]

Hi Chuck,
I didnt know you had put a clutch in the gear box. That was a good idea! Did something break or did you just want the clutch??
Russ

[Chuck Irby]

Hey Russ,

No, everything was fine, I just thought the clutch would be easier on the gearbox and engine. It's also easier on me. I really do like it. My son has one in his C box behind his 503 also. I wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone who has a "C" box.

Are you doing much time in the air these days? Have you taken your wife up yet?

I did see where you are planning to be at ROC, right?

[GyroRon]

Scott..... How Much for the CADDY????

also to mount a Rotax there is several ways to do this. One of the best ways is a dynafocal type mount which is basically a pair of 2 inch wide aluminum bars that are flat under the engine - one for the front of the engine and one for the rear of the engine and both go out towards the sides - and are bent up on the ends at something like a 15 degree angle, then you have a matching set slightly longer under those bars that hard mount to the frame and between the engine and frame bars use some rubber bushings around the bolt to cushion the pieces. Look at the way the mount is on this pic of the Phantom and you can probably get the picture.

Also you can do the same thing with just flat bar and still be okay but the dynafocal is the better set up.

I do think you should make the gyro more CLT while you rebuild. It isn't hard and I will be glad to help. Give me your phone number.

[gyrodude]

I put over 150hrs on the 500 and 530 Suzuki's that I hadwith no problems. I still have the 500 in a box if I ever want to hop up my Dominator.
The Suzuki's are liquid cooled and have Nikisil cylinders. Derated and not run at red line or close to it makes for longer life.
My only complaint was that living in the south means no snowmobile dealers and no parts locally. I used a dealer in upstate NY who was happy to ship parts to me. Suzuki as a company does not want their engines on aircraft and some dealers will not sell you parts if you tell them it is for an aircraft.

[GyroRon]

I think there is cetainly many good points to using a snowmobile engine on a gyro instead of a much more expensive Rotax. But don't underestimate the Rotax either. It may seem behind the times at Todd puts it, but look at the engines used in General aviation and most small experimental aircraft..... Most of these engines are using state of the 1930's art design but for good reason, It works! The rotax ignition system is not the most up to date design but it is simple with little to break or go wrong with it. The pistons cost more but the bearings in the wrist pin to Connection rods are mush more robust than what is used in a typical snowmobile engine. etc.... etc...

The fact is that all of the two stroke Rotax aircraft engines are based on Rotax snowmobile engines. Several years ago the difference between the sled and aero Rotaxs were mainly the addition of a gearbox. But over the years Rotax has made changes to the aero engines based on what wasn't working on the sled based engines we were flying.

Yet it is hard to pass up on a engine that can put out more power, for less weight, and cost much less to buy and install and much much less for parts as you need them.

One thing to keep in mind with a sled engine is in a sled the engine is hooked up to a CVT transmission that in basic terms keeps the engine in a certain RPM range. More throttle doesn't mean more RPMs, it means more power which the transmission takes and uses to speed up it's output which in turns makes you go faster.... So in a nutshell sled engines by design are going to be peaky engines cause they were not designed to give power steady from 2000 rpm up to redline. They are designed to either idle or run at a given rpm for the most part. Also like most tuned engines, the rated horsepower may be quite high, but it is doubtful that you will get long service out of it running it that hard. I know that alot of the sleds are rated at well over 100 HP, but just like some of the big sportbikes that are rated for close to if not over 150 HP, these engines are rarely ran at that power output for more than a few minutes at a time.... Not like a aircraft engine is ran.

Personally I would much prefer a engine conversion out of a Personal watercraft such as the 80 horsepower Yamaha engine that Anthony S out of texas used on his Aircommand gyro. These are not as peaky and are built more like a aero engine where as the internals are designed to use the peak horsepower for extended periods of time.

I saw Scotts Suzuki engine and gearbox and it looked good. I know If I were in his shoes right now I would be installing that engine in a heartbeat.

[Phil_Ruffin]

Scott, your more than welcome to come over and look at my engine mounts. They are very simple and easy to build, especially with your work shop!

I don't have any photos but here are a couple of quick drawing I did.

Come on over if you like, email me and I will send you directions.

Later Phil

[Phil_Ruffin]

Sorry that is so big, forgot to reduce it before posting. :o

[Chuck Irby]

Nice drawing, Phil. Don't you also have two more pieces that connect the back of the 2 x 2 to the lower keel? Then, in your case, the radiator is mounted to those two vertical pieces.

[Phil_Ruffin]

Chuck, I was only showing him the simplicity of the mounting bars. But you are correct, 2 support bars go from the end of the outside edge of the rear mounts to the keel.

[MikeBoyette]

Scott,
Run it gear box down. If your looking for a ready made mount Dad has plenty in stock. I am not sure of the price. Give him a call after Mentone.

[Chuck Irby]

Phil, the way you have yours mounted is a lot more simple than mine, and it will work just as well as mine. Therefore, Scott, even though I did take some pictures of mine, if I were you, I would use Phil's design. Scott, let me know if you still want me to post, or email you the pics I took of my engine mount.

Scott, there's only one thing I would consider changing about Phil's design, and only if you have the room to do this: You could make the cluster plates larger to accommodate locating the bolts (that attach the plates to the mast) in front of, and behind the mast, instead of through it. IMO, this would keep the mast stronger (no holes) and also allow you to slide the plates up, or down slightly for a more precise location. I would probably use four 1/4" bolts in front of the mast and four behind it, two of which would also go through the 2 x 2 that will support the engine. Then run two braces from the back of the engine support down to the keel. Scott, I have seen your work, and know you'll do it the best way possible. I'll shut up now . . . just wish I could help you, Scott.

[scottessex]

Thanks guys! Great drawing Phil! Chuck, I will use the cluster plates that are similar to what I have now, with no holes through the mast.
I had to flush and reload my computer yesterday, it had some sort of comunicable disease.

I am going to go forwards with the suzuki conversion, I am going to replace the top end gaskets, de-carbon, re-ring, The inside of the engine looks really good.

I haven't done much to it, As I have been helping my 16 year old son get his car in good working order. But after next week I should know alot more. Again thanks for all the info.

[Screw]

Screw-In

Hi all,

Brent, I wasn't saying in a previous post that the Suzuki was a bad choice. I don't know.

What I was saying, is that the Suzuki Scott has, hasn't been re-built or set up for this application yet, and could possibly open a new "Can of worms."

Poor Scott has been through the ringer with that Arrow engine. In looking for a quick solution for his engine problems, he has decided to go with another power plant. I'd recommended he try to go with a used rotax or another engine that has been proven reliable in gyros and possibly ready to bolt on.

Chuck, Scott brought up Rick Ambercrombie who flys with a 2130cc VW. I was telling Scott, if he wanted to go the VW way, to duplicate Rick's set up and not mine. My vw is 1835cc @ 65hp. Ricks is 2130cc @ 75+ hp.

Since speaking with Scott, I support his decision to with the Suzuki. He has most everything he need to run it, and can do the rest fairly cheap. I'm looking forward to it.

Screw-Out

[Chuck Irby]

Okay Screw, now I understand. Thank you!

[gyrodude]

Scott, I have an adaptor plate to mount a Rotax gearbox to the 530 Suzuki. I can make you a drawing of it. It is pretty simple.

[scottessex]

Thanks Gary, I believe that I got the drawing from you a while ago, and I have already made the adaptor, I wasn't sure how long my arrow would last, so I started aquring parts for the suzuki awhile ago. Thanks.