Looking to make the right choice

[dkegley]

I need help in making the right choices in purchasing a GYRO. I am new to flying and don't know what to do first? What are the costs involved with having a Gyro? Me and my family live on a shoe string budget with a little left over for this new adventure. I have spent the last couple of months looking on line at Gyro's and the RAF 2000 looks like it is the right one for me, but how do I know for sure? Where do I go to try one out? Where are the training facilitys? I live in Amery Wisconsin and have 12 acres of land, so I think I can take off and land just fine, but what about landing on other people’s property? Do I have to land at airports only or can I go over to a friend’s house and land at his property (with his permission). What about long distance traveling? Will a Gyro fly cross country or are the fuel tanks to small to accommodate this. Anyway, you get the Idea; I have lots of other questions but didn’t know who to ask. Thanks for any replies. Dan

[CLS447]

Welcome Dan! #1Come to the Mentone convention & join the PRA.
#2 If you like the RAF, your gonna get alot of different opinions! I highly recommend you go to Ron Menzie & get an intro flight/ training. He is now training in the Sparrowhawk, but has trained students in probably every RAF configuration. This guy knows his stuff!

#3 Make your decision, buy it , build it, more training & then

#4 Have the time of your life!

Hey guys what did I miss? Please fill in the blanks...................

[GyroRon]

Don't forget to mention that for about the same price as a RAF the Sparrowhawk is a far better machine, with Centerline trust, tall tail, bigger engine, MUCH better standard blades, MUCH larger cabin, etc... etc....

With the Sparrowhawk on the market, I think anyone buying a new RAF kit at this point is making a very poor choice.

[mcbirdman]

[QUOTE=

With the Sparrowhawk on the market, I think anyone buying a new RAF kit at this point is making a very poor choice.[/QUOTE]

That is a very good point. Why would anyone need to buy RAF anymore when there is the sparrohawk?

[rfonseca]

A excellent starting machines at good prices are Dominators and Butterflies.

[darrellwittke]

Spend your first 2000 dollars on training first. Don't put the horse before the cart. You may not even like it so why spend a bunch of money. Get training, a taste of gyro flight, and then decide. My two cents anyways.

[Chuck Irby]

Daniel, I agree with all the posts above. However, in my opinion, Darrell, in the preceding post, makes a very good point, in that, it would probably be wise to spend some money on some training first.

You stated: "What are the costs involved with having a Gyro? Me and my family live on a shoe string budget with a little left over for this new adventure." That statement could have entirely different meanings to different people.

It appears to me that there are just too many unknowns, at this point, for anyone to be able to precisely answer your questions, or to be much help to you.

How much money can you spend now? How much time do you have on your hands for building? What experience do you have that would aid you in building a machine? What tools do you have? Will you be getting a gyro for you to fly, or must you have a two place machine? If the machine will be primarily for your enjoyment, a single place machine is more fun and less expensive to fly. It's also less expensive to build or buy. Knowing your age would be a benefit in helping you also. We don't know if you are 20 years old, or 70.

I believe any of us would be more than happy to receive private messages from you in case there are things you would prefer not to open up to the whole forum. You could pick out someone on the forum that you trust and send them a private message. Then, that person, in all probability, would be more than happy to help steer you in the right direction. Or, if you want to answer those questions on the forum, we could all pitch in to help, and we do want to help you, especially from making the same mistakes we have made. That's what this is all about. We all help each other.

In addition, you indicated that you were concerned about the cost of maintenance. Different machines require different maintenance, and maintenance costs vary greatly from one machine to another.

Again, I completely agree with Darrell in his post above, get a couple of hours training before you do anything else. Also feel free to send any of us a private message.

[GyroRon]

I don't think anyone can get started in gyros for less than 6-8 grand. Figure 2 grand for training and the rest of the money for a cheap used gyro. A sparrowhawk or RAF brand new will set you back around 30 grand once your done building it.

Getting a intro ride and a few lessons first is the best advise cause you might not like it after you get up there....

[Mayfield]

Dan,

I know it sounds odd since I am in the business of selling SparrowHawks, but I agree completely with Darrell, Ron and others when they say "get a little training first."

Whether you spend $10K on an open frame or $30K on a SparrowHawk it is still a significant investment.

I strongly reccommend finding out if you really like it before investing the time and effort of building an aircraft.

I have been in and around the amateur built aircraft world for nearly forty years and the thing that stands out most are the number of projects started and not completed.

Make sure you like it. Make sure you have a clear plan on how you are going to train. Make sure you have the wherewithal and can commit the time necessary.

The guys and gals on this forum will answer any questions you might have.

Jim Mayfield
President
American Autogyro Inc.

[Aussie_Paul]

Well said Jim.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Harry_S.]

Chuck Irby:

A very good post. One of your best!!

Jim Mayfield:

A very good post.

Dan: You can't go wrong following the advice given in these two posts.
Good luck!

Cheers.

[Gary_in_Orygun]

You are coming into the market at an interesting time. Jim Mayfield is just ramping up his SparrowHawk business and should shortly have demonstrator models and instructors located around the country.

I have an RAF and I have it because I wanted a two-place, enclosed machine. At the time I bought, SparrowHawk was not an option.

I have used the folding mast option on my RAF a number of times. Right now the SparrowHawk does not have this option. They are still new and I'm interested to see what new developments and improvements come down the line as the machine is put through the wringer. Already, experience has taught them that they needed to beef up the nose gear. If all goes well, they may not uncover any more "big" gotchas.

RAF has been around a while and have good documentation and videos. They do have some shortcomings (in many people's opinion) which you would want to know about. Things to keep in mind when buying an RAF is that you will want to swap out some of their Hardware Store parts with Aviation-quality parts. People like myself and Ken J. can help you with that. Also see http://home.att.net/~raf2000owners (http://home.att.net/~raf2000owners/)

Do your homework. I joined PRA right away when I was looking into getting a gyro. (Although, right now I'm thinking this forum is better than the PRA, or at least a necessary supplement.)

The advise about getting some training before you buy also is a good one. I found that I like the open-frame flying, but only on occasion. You can hardly scratch your nose when you are flying open cockpit machines. I love my enclosed cockpit here in the PNW. I can open a map, take a drink of water or eat a sandwich, set the camera down on the seat, ... Try any of that in an open place machine. But, the open cockpit machine is a blast for flying around the local area. Having removable doors does give me more of that wind-in-the face feel on those rare hot days here. But then I have to be careful about stowing everything away so it doesn't blow away.

Also, my machine holds about 21 gallons. At a burn rate of 5.0 gph (fuel injected Subaru) that gives me good cross-country range with ample reserve. (I love my reserve.)

I took one hour of training in an RAF 2000 at Oshkosh 1999 before buying my kit. I also talked with a number of people on the old Rotorcraft conference before I made my purchase. I told RAF to remove a few things from my kit so that I could get them elsewhere, like the fuel-injected intake manifold and computer and the alternator setup.

I purchased a horizontal stabilizer from another company at the same time I bought my kit since RAF did not offer one and I felt it a requirement based on what I read.

Jim also made a good point about being realistic on your time investment. A complex machine like the RAF or SparrowHawk WILL take you some time to build. Mine took me 450 hours to get flying. I stopped logging the time for modifications and repairs.

And then there is the trailer expense. You talked about keeping it at home, which is fine. But will you need to trailer it anywhere? I trailered mine to California (from Oregon) to have Gary Brewer do the initial setup and test flights. (That cost some money too.) I was not qualified to do the initial setup and testflight. I also trailered my machine to a local airport to swing the compass, and to meet with the DAR who signed it off. So, you may THINK you can just leave it on your property the whole time, and maybe you can. But you might also need to transport it by ground.

These are some of the details to be thinking about, or at least not let them frustrate you when the unexpected comes up.

[barnstorm2]

Welcome Dan!

Advice here is tip top.

Chris's advice to go to Mentone is also a great idea. You can get a great deal of advice exposure and Hands On gyro experience.

Several trainers will be giving demo rides for $35-$65 each ( prices I have seen in the past ).

Gyro people will be all around and I'll bet some good videos, seminars and don't forget to join the PRA.

Welcome aboard!

[davreich]

Hi,
You live in Wisconsin and EAA is just around the corner (next week). I believe both the RAF and AAI give demo flights at Fond du lac airport during the airshow. You don't even have to pay to get into the airshow to do a demo ride at Fond du lac. Not sure what the demo rides cost. Might make a nice day trip for you. Hope this helps. Dave

[cgmg]

I wholeheartedly agree with Jim's advice about getting lessons before buying anything! And even better, take demo flights, as many as you can, before you buy. The one thing you won't learn from demo flights and lessons is how the machine feels if you end up flying a single place version, which is a whole different ball game.

Do not, do not, buy anything, not even parts, before you have several lessons under your belt. In my case, at just under 10 hours of lessons, my instructor wasn't sure he wanted to continue to train me, as I was having trouble detecting pitch excursions in time to correct them. We quit for the winter, and when I came back next spring, everything changed, and I finally got the feeling down. But the best thing to come out of this is that my instructor told me not to buy anything except centerline thrust, so pitch excursions would not be as likely. I had been looking at several used machines, but all were non-centerline thrust. If I had bought one, I may have had a machine I wasn't qualified to fly. But by waiting until after 10 hours of lessons, I ended up with the right machine for me, and my wife. We found a used Air Command centerline thrust frame, and built it out from there.

The more machines you fly in, and the more people you talk to, the better chance you have of getting a machine you'll be happy with. We both love our single place, and are looking at two-places now. Believe it or not, when we first got into the gyro bug, we were both die-hard RAF wanters. With what we know now, and from having flown in RAF's several times, an RAF is not for us.

Welcome to the gyro community, and don't hesitate to ask questions, there is always someone here who will try to help you out.

One other caveat: A gyro, no matter which one, will always cost you more than you expected to maintain, even a new one. Do not compromise your safety with your machine by cutting corners on expenses. It will come back to bite you.

[LARRYEBOYER]

welcome to gyro land. The land of varied opinions and experience.All of the above comments have merrit. Jim is right on in his opinion of getting a taste of it first. My brother in law built a benson glider back in 1983. I looked at that contraption and said no way!!! he flew it and crashed it.I then saw Ken Brock fly in an air show down in Florida at a SUN and Fun show. I said" I will own one of those some day. In 1995 I purchased a barn daisy. It was an air command without an engine. It had been wrecked. I spent2 years working on puting it into flying condition. I then cleaned it and dusted it off in the garage for 5 years. Then Air COmmand came out with their CLT upgrade. I made the change and it looked hot. It also looked terifying. People were still dropping out of the sky in these contraptions because of something called PPO.I figured CLT would keep me from becoming a statistic if I ever got the nerve to fly it. My wife finally got my attention. Fly it or sell it. I got training from Bill Ortmyer in Florida. That was another problem. You most likely will have to travel a good distance to get the adequate traing you need. I live in Penna(land of taxes).To put it in a nut shell, don't buy till you have some training and have lost some fear and gained confidence that this is what you want to do. Then put your money down based on what you think you will do with the machine. If you are going to fly off the 12 acres(I love the idea) then get a light machine like a butterfly or dominator.It will be fine for local travel. If you are sure you want to do cross country, then the RAF or Sparrow hawk will be fine for that.I would recomend a single place CLT machine that is in used, but good flying condition. Don't make the mistake like I did to buy a wrecked machine thinking I was going to save money. Aircraft parts and accessories are expensive!What a dumb idea that was.Become a member of PRA and get their magazine. There is always listing of good used machines. Also EBAY motors under Aircraft lists an occasional lovely that needs a good home and is a good buy. That, as Ron says, is my 2 cents.

[Chuck Irby]

Good posts, everyone. However, it looks as though we may have lost the guy who started this thread. :D

How about it Daniel, are you still with us? I hope we haven't scared you off.

[dkegley]

Hi Everone,

Gyro Dreamer here...

As you all probably know unless you have money to burn, Money is the biggest factor that is keeping me from getting the trainning classes first, I agree with what I've been reading and I am looking for a trainer that is within 100 miles of Amery but no luck yet. I want to go to the EAA show but have been deployed over the last few shows. I don't want to go and get my hopes up and not be able to follow through with trainning and the like. I also need to get my wife involved, things go so much easier when I have here intrest and support.

I'm a 40 year old guy with 4 kids and a wife to support so I'm flying high on family time right now but I have been putting a little money away here and there so that I can take the trainning classes. That leaves buying a gyro a few years out yet but I will...

Keep the replys coming as I like to hear what you all are doing and what new things that are out there. I've been going to the Carter copter web site and that would be the way to go for me if I could aford it, check it out if you like at http://www.cartercopters.com.

Thanks for all your help...

Gyro Dreamer Da\

[Aussie_Paul]

I'm a 40 year old guy with 4 kids and a wife to support so I'm flying high on family time right now but I have been putting a little money away here and there so that I can take the trainning classes. That leaves buying a gyro a few years out yet but I will...

Thanks for all your help...

Gyro Dreamer Da\

Hang in there Daniel. You have a plan to follow your dream and that is a great start.:D

Aussie Paul. :)