Helicycle Hatchery

[hillberg]

Sadly the bell style rotor system ( Simi ridgid under slung teatering rotor) you do hang below it, and like other systems of this design you can get pylon whirl & mast bumping.

The dangling below ,cartoonish ? But true.

[StanFoster]

The Turbinator was in for some preventive maintenance before Saturdays flight. I wanted to inspect the filter on the Moroso oil cooler. I placed a garbage bag under it as I quickly removed the 4 screws and unhooked the two AN pipe fittings going to it. Only a few drops of oil and a few minutes and I had it out of the ship and apart.

Here are some pictures of taking it out.....taking it apart....and disecting the filter. The oil pumps from the inside of the paper element....so I removed it....sliced it open and examined it. The next to the last pictures shows some little flakes in the folds of the filter. Not bad for 50 hours. The last picture is a magnet that I placed several of those flakes on....You can see one laying on the magnet....but...tip the magnet and it falls off! It was aluminum flakes probably from all the aluminum oil lines I had to cut, and flare. I have a main oil filter right after this cooler that is soon due for replacing.

The cooler was put back together....then I pulled the Turbinator outside and started it up outside the cabin. I had to engaged the rotors, run them for a few minutes..shut down and check for leaks. Bone dry....and I was go for my snow flight.


By the way.....this filter could EASILY be put in backwards where the filter would be spring loaded against the oil outlet.....that spring pressure plus the pressure of the oil pumping into the cooler would most definitely shut the oil off perfectly. I tested it with a fitting....and if assembled wrong.....would completely starve the main transmission of its life giving blood.

However......I have an oil pressure switch that I watch as I start spinning up the rotors. It ALWAYS goes off as soon as the rotors are up to 50 rpm. I love that switch. Should I ever see my low pressure light come on in flight....I am going to use the capabilities of a helicopter and land immediately on the terrain below me.

Stan

[titanhank]

i put the same oil cooler on my ship, but i took the filter assembly completely out. i did not want it catching everything while the trans filter stayed clean. i also put on a low oil pressure switch and light on my trans line thanks to you stan. i loved the idea whn i read about it. i now have a low oil pressure switch and light on the engine and trans and a light and relay that moniters my main bus power system. the light will come on if i lose any part of the rectifer, stator, main battery connections etc. this light say emergency power only and tells me i am on my 3 amp backup battery for power. another great idea from you about the backup battery. i now have two completely didode isolated power systems feeding my main bus.

todays project is to put in the fuel sight gauge in the cabin. i just got back from the hardware store getting the fittings.

keep the good ideas coming stan. i am still plugging away.

hank

[StanFoster]

Hank- I forgot to mention that I also put the cooler back together without putting in a new filter. I had read possibly of someone thinking thhe filter may restrict the oil flow too much. Since we have a good filter, I decided to take mine out and disect it. But I HAD to mention that one could EASILY install the filter wrong and have it completely shut down the oil. Stan

[Vance]

Sadly the bell style rotor system ( Simi ridgid under slung teatering rotor) you do hang below it, and like other systems of this design you can get pylon whirl & mast bumping.

The dangling below ,cartoonish ? But true.

Hello Stan,

I apologize for this disruption in the continuity of your thread.

Hello Don,

You are one of my aviation heroes so it is with the greatest reluctance that I express my divergence of opinion. I would prefer to just listen and learn.

My challenge with the semantics of a rotorcraft dangling beneath the rotor is that in my opinion a body in space rotates around its center of gravity.

In my opinion because the rotor head is not fixed in space I feel the rotorcraft does not dangle beneath the rotor as I understand the term dangle.

I feel there is value in understanding the dynamic relationship of the rotor thrust vector and the center of gravity particularly in relation to uncomanded pitch excursions and moments.

I feel there is a danger in imagining the aircraft dangling or swinging beneath the rotor as though the rotor head was a pivot point fixed in space. I have seen people with this dangle perception imagine what I feel are unrealistic interactions.

Thank you, Vance

[StanFoster]

Vance- No disruption at all.....Please continue on. I made my case about why a rotor disc drops at the front and will enjoy reading about the dangle idea that I also dont agree with. One perfect example is that it is desirable for the CG to be ahead of the rotorshaft axis.

One benefit of this is when you are autoing in and just at the end of your flare, a little check up with the collective will not only reduce further your groundspeed...but also adds more skid leveling power as the increased thrust tried to align the forward CG , and this assists the cyclic when you go level the skids. So, the helicopter with a semi-rigid teetering rotor in my opinion is doing more than dangling.


Stan

[bryancobb]

Real easy to demonstrate that any particular helicopter don't really "dangle."

In a stable hover, do a moderate input of LATERAL cyclic as to move sideways but don't hold it in long enough for the helicopter to go sideways. If the fuselage tilts in relation to the horizon, IT'S NOT DANGLIN'!

[hillberg]

"Gravity" is the controling factor in a Bell style rotor system,:boink: Remove the "G"s and see how fast you go from Dangling to falling. Out of all the helicopters I have flown ,The R-22 was the only one requiring any aft cyclic input at the start of an auto:wacko:. As the rotors do there thing The Fuslage will follow , in a banking turn & nosing up as you do a quick stop.:argue:

I think some people might get some time in a few more types before lumping how they fly into one machine.:sad:

[StanFoster]

Don- I have said many times that I am just a fledgling helicopter pilot, and it will take years and many hundreds of hours before I will consider myself any higher than that. My helicopter flight experience will more than likely only include an R22 and my Helicycle. Both behave very similar with my Helicycle having more power/pound and more rotor energy. My total helicopter experience wouldn't make a pimple on some of the other helicopter pilots butts............................................. .I take that as a big plus as I have the potential to still learn what I don't know as much about. It is very enjoyable for me to experience each flight as a fledgling as I try to either learn something new, or reinforce what I have just learned. Best experience I have been through with a mechanical device! Stan

[Vance]

"Gravity" is the controling factor in a Bell style rotor system,:boink: Remove the "G"s and see how fast you go from Dangling to falling. Out of all the helicopters I have flown ,The R-22 was the only one requiring any aft cyclic input at the start of an auto:wacko:. As the rotors do there thing The Fuslage will follow , in a banking turn & nosing up as you do a quick stop.:argue:

I think some people might get some time in a few more types before lumping how they fly into one machine.:sad:

Hello Don,

I am sorry I didn’t do a better job of making my point or perhaps I am simply wrong.

My helicopter experience is limited to several Robinson 22s, several Robinson 44s, and a Hiller H-23C, a Bell 47G, a Bell 206L Long Ranger and a Safari kit Helicopter. I do not have a helicopter license nor do I covet a helicopter. Because of my limited experience I am not making any kind of a point about how a particular helicopter reacts in a particular situation.

I feel that gravity is how a two blade semi rigid rotor system works.

I feel that a helicopter pitches around its center of gravity rather than dangling from the rotor.

I feel this distinction is important because it gives someone a way to imagine and measure moment arms and recognize there is often a lag in the rotor thrust vector lining up with the center of gravity.

Based on my definition of dangle; dangling beneath the rotor would suggest that the rotor head is fixed in space. In my opinion a helicopter pitches around the center of gravity rather than the rotor head.

I would be the first to admit that helicopters and how they work confuse me.

Thank you, Vance

[hillberg]

:flame:As long as It put a smile on your face,:D It sure does mine.:wacko:

[bryancobb]

...dangling beneath the rotor would suggest that the rotor head is fixed in space...

Instruments like the Attitude Indicator, Directional Gyro, HSI, Turn Coordinator, and RMI work because of a gyroscopic principle called "rigidity in space."

A helicopter rotor is definitely a big gyroscope.

[Vance]

Instruments like the Attitude Indicator, Directional Gyro, HSI, Turn Coordinator, and RMI work because of a gyroscopic principle called "rigidity in space."

A helicopter rotor is definitely a big gyroscope.

Thank you Brian,

That is a very good example of exactly what I feel can be misconstrued with the concept of a helicopter dangling beneath the rotor.

I feel that the application of “fixed in space” as related to how a helicopter flies ignores what “fixed in space” as related to gyroscopes is describing.

In my opinion a helicopter still rotates around its center of gravity.

Thank you, Vacne

[hillberg]

As you hang (Dangle) below the head in a hover how the rotor tip path will be level and the dang helicopter would be tilted as the self loading bagage would be drooling and messing up all the windows on one side?:noidea:

A helicopters C/G is narrow and the Gross weight will add to the delay in control inputs,
As you have more trash to haul around. & the C/G changes water line:)

It's neat to see the difference in the amount of cyclic needed to get the same job done.
Where the head goes the body follows.:lol:

Gota love it.:rant:

[Vance]

As you hang (Dangle) below the head in a hover how the rotor tip path will be level and the dang helicopter would be tilted as the self loading bagage would be drooling and messing up all the windows on one side?:noidea:

A helicopters C/G is narrow and the Gross weight will add to the delay in control inputs,
As you have more trash to haul around. & the C/G changes water line:)

It's neat to see the difference in the amount of cyclic needed to get the same job done.
Where the head goes the body follows.:lol:

Gota love it.:rant:

Thank you Don,

In my opinion we have divergent perspectives.

I am comfortable with that.

Thank you, Vance

[StanFoster]

Today was one of those easy layed back days of just hanging in the hanger and taking care of my Turbinator.


After yesterdays two rewarding flights....and todays crappy weather.....I decided to polish the blades, clean the frame, clean the cabin, polish the windshield, and the usual check it all over. Nothing was out of the ordinary, and its condition is ready for flight. I spend more maintenance time on my riding lawn tractor.


By the way....I use Plexus on the windshield. I typically rinse the windshield with a little water to rinse the dust off....then spray on Plexus....then use a microfibre towel and stroke it longitudinally. I find this leaves the glass as pristine as possible.

The first picture is my air filter. A 360 degree mesh screen that keeps frogs out of the turbine wheels.

One picture shows my hand going up the exhaust pipe. I am determining the sex of the Turbinator.....ha. Actually I am feeling the turbine wheel for any play as I turn the turbine 90 degrees at a time. Any detectable movement at all grounds the turbine. Of course I dont expect to ever detect movement...but still check. The one picture shows my blast shield keeping the streaming turbine exhaust from cooking my white powdercoated frame. Its a sacrificial shield and its doing its job. I have my turbine exhaust turned up max to minimize making burnt spots in yards.


One picture is the belly of the beasty turbine. That elbow is a drain for raw kerosene that drains the burner can.

The last pictures are the glass cleaning stuff...and a shot of my rotorblade that I just polished. I havent had to polish the blades since early November when the bugs finally gave up. I still hit a few in late November...and I decided to just get rid of them today. The blades themselves never dull...its just the bugs I have to get off.


The last picture is the Turbinator sitting in its nest ready on a whim to take me somewhere or nowhere if I want to just hover.

[StanFoster]

My white spiral wrap looked great at first..matched my frame rails nice...but the sunlight has caused it to turn brownish yellow.....a color scheme I am not working with. So I went with the corrugated black plastic wrap. I actually like it a lot better...easier to install....looks cleaner also.

Here are my before and after pictures. I have a few more to change out.

[JEFF TIPTON]

Something to think about. I have seen tyraps installed as you have over time cut into the tubing.

[StanFoster]

Jeff- I have used tthat black plastic on with tie wraps for 10 years and never had any problems. Then I changed to that white spiral wrap and it was getting discolored and brittle. Back to my black corrugated wrap! Stan

[JEFF TIPTON]

Not the plastic wrap, but the actual tyrap itself, is what I have seen cut engine mount tubing before.

[StanFoster]

Jeff- My tubing is 4130 steel....and the ties havent even scratched the power coat yet. Originally I used white plastic ties as they were the "prettiest" on my frame....but was aware that ultra violet rays eats on them. I havent had any break yet, but they were getting discolored...so I put all new black ties on. That old spiral wrap was starting to look old. Inside the belly of my cabin where no sunlight has hit the spiral wrap...its as white as ever.

Stan

[StanFoster]

I have been flying almost 18 months now and my blades have kept their mirror shine all this time.....and I have hovered everywhere except over sandy surfaces. I always watch my recirculation and get moving if I see some on my nose. Before yesterday....its worked great. I havents so much as have had a spec on my blades except for bugs.

Well yesterdays hovering at that farmers ranch caught me recirculating some dust as I was leaving the wet limestone to the blacktop. It was right at the edge of the blacktop where a bunch of grit must have collected. I also was hovering slowly as I was aware of more vortices on my port side since I was close to the building. I have seen far more dust on other flights than this time however.

I didnt think anything about it until I postflighted my chopper. The leading edge on just the outer 2 feet had a flat finish instead of a mirror finish. I felt it with my finger and it had friction to it....further inboard it was smooth and like a mirror.

If anyone has maintained aluminum, the more mirror like the surface...the easier it is to keep it that way. Any micro pits or sanding marks just harbor oxidation ingredients better.

Well, now here I am with this flat finished leading edges on the outboard 2 feet. So, I got out my 320 grit....then followed with 400, then 600, then 800, then 1200, then 1500. Next was hand rubbing Purple on....and now were talking! I then finished up with my power bonnet buffer, being very sparing on the Purple applied as that tool want to fling any excess off.

I ended up with my mirror finish back.....and a little more wiser about limestone dust. My tail rotor was fine...

Still will hover every bit as much.....just a little higher and still watching closely for recirculation.

Stan

[titanhank]

hi stan, i am finishing up my ship with the same dual pc680 batteries and aux tank. i was wondering what your ship weighed? i have searched the threads for over an hour and can't find where you weighed it.

i think mine is going to be a tad on the heavy side.

thanks
hank canup
03-04

[StanFoster]

Hank- I never weighed my Helicycle, but it was hung by the rotor to adjust the batteries si that the mast was 3 degrees forward at the top. It has an abundance of power as it climbs like a scalded cat on a hot day. I have never been so satisfied as I have been flying this helicopter. Stan

[ylf]

Stan, how did you handle the paperwork that asks for a weight and balance to be submitted with the airworthiness request forms?

Mike

[StanFoster]

Mike- I put down a weight that was supplied by the factory , and added a few pounds for some minor changes. Stan

[titanhank]

thanks stan. i have asked others and the general theme is not to worry about the weight. i hope their right. my ship weighs in at 585 lbs. i will have a fully loaded takeoff weight of 965 lbs.

[StanFoster]

Hank- Cant wait to hear you flying your ship. You will love that machine. Your estimated weight and mine are within 5 pounds. My estimate was averaged amongst the other known weighed ships. Most had similar gauges.....biggest difference mine had over some of the others was I have two Odysey 680 batteries....some only have one.

My oil cooler was added later, and now my airfoils which are only a few pounds. My very small backup battery was also added later.....

Like I mentioned...the Helicycle does not lack for power where I fly. I never have tested full climb out power to see what my VSI reads....but she climbs like a home sick angel with lots of collective left.

Stan

[ylf]

Thanks Stan, I'm working on that paperwork now and trying to arrange a DAR. I'd like to have Tom Milton do it but it's a long distance to have him come here to SE Kansas. I'm currently in the process of polishing the blades and building blade supports to help with blade installation.

Here's a picture of how it sits now, I think looking at your build thread for so long may have subconsciously influenced my paint scheme.:) Mike

[StanFoster]

ylf- You have a beautiful looking ship. I bet it will fly just as nice as she looks.

Stan

[ylf]

Stan, do you remember where you got your document holder (pictured here)? I've been looking but can't find one I like that isn't too big.

I just got my FAA registration card in the mail today - one step closer.

Thanks,
Mike

[StanFoster]

SMike- I bought mine from Aircraft Spruce. Stan

[ylf]

Thanks, I'll take another look at Aircraft Spruce, I don't remember seeing one like that. Mike

[StanFoster]

Mike- its buried somewhere in their catalog. It holds my registration, Airworthiness certificate and operating limitations perfectly snug. I epoxied on some velcro discs, and it can be ripped out if needed. I used the same velcro to attach my burbour floor mats. Stan

[ylf]

Found it, thanks. They call it a license holder.

[500e]

YLF what mount on the vertical compass looks like 4 screws through panel, is there some compliant mount to isolate from the hull?
Stan the cat has 2 catnip plants for its personal use, & it is still trying to phone Gabor

[ylf]

500e - That's Stan's panel in the picture, I think it's been working ok for him, I hope so because mine is done similarly but I'm not to the point where I can test mine yet.

[StanFoster]

500- Not sure what you are asking about the screws. My VCC filled the hole where I would put a transponder which is very unlikely, but arranged for anyway. Stan

[500e]

500- Not sure what you are asking about the screws. My VCC filled the hole where I would put a transponder which is very unlikely, but arranged for anyway. Stan
Hi Stan in the compass instructions it suggests a compliant mounting for the instrument all the ones I have seen have a mount to the frame Then a soft rubber vibration damper to isolate it.
Just wondering if you have some crafty mount hidden behind the front ?

[StanFoster]

Brett- I just mounted it in the hole. It works very smoothly....I have it adjusted NS-EW as per instructions. I check it only when flying on a cross country to have a backup heading should my gps fail. Otherwise, to me, its just a fancy spinning gizmo that does read accurately! I dont recall ever using it otherwise. Its mainly something that was cheaper to fill my transponder hole than a transponder.


Stan

[StanFoster]

Its a cold Saturday morning, and a great time to do my basic maintenance on the Turbinator.

The first three pictures are draining my tail rotor gearbox oil. Its only a small amount...I pour it into a red plastic cup, then transfer the oil slowly to a clear cup and slowly roll the film of oil around with a bright light behind it looking for anything. The first 50 hours this oil would have a metallic gold paint look to it, but I was told that is normal and it would slowly diminish. It has and I just put in new oil every 10 hours. Takes all of 5 minutes to drain, and replace the oil. I leave the drained oil in the cup for further evaluation.

I moved on to check my belt tension that drives the main and tail rotors. B.J. Schramm developed this system as a torque limiter to the gearbox. At my factory checkout, Doug set the belt tension with his pull gauge....then I used mine and placed a red mark on it to have an accurate setting since our pull gauges read a little differently. I initially only had to tighten the belts one time up to 10 hours...then since I have had the same over center pull reading on my gauge...and havent had to tighten them once.

I could overtighten these belts and turn the fuel on at the turbine and have one smoking hotrod......but that would be over torquing the transmission and shorten its life. I dont want to find out how much it shortens its life by over tightening these belts.

My free fuel flow check was next. Typically my fuel system delivers a 25 gph flow to the turbine. I take the fuel line off the fuel pump on the turbine and time how long it takes to fill a 5 gallon fuel can. Once I caught my fuel flow down to 20 gph....which is way more than plenty, but was indicating something was restricting my fuel flow. I posted this over a year ago and had discovered algae on my gascolator filter screen. Since then I have been adding biobor to my fuel...and I havent seen so much a speck since then.

I cant let complacency take over, so I still persistently look for problems. My fuel flow check was normal, and I also took my gascolator screen off and inspected it. It looked very clean, but I put some kerosene in that red solo cup and sloshed the filter vigorously in the fuel for quite awhile....spinnning it in my fingers and everything. I inspected the kerosene in the cup as with that white interior, any foreign material is easily seen. I could see very small specks of debris hardly detectable by eye.....it could have had 100 times as much and wouldnt been as bad as the black green algae that had it half plugged as I previously mentioned. I put it all back together...re safety wired the gascolator bowl to my fuel shut off arm. I love that fuel shut off as it cuts the fuel right before the gascolator and not even a drip of kerosene while I am cleaning the filter.

Next I greased the collective slider. During the cold weather I just apply Marvel Mystery oil, then change to grease in the warmer weather. The reason is I fly year round from single digit temps to upper 90's. One day it was around 10 degrees out and I pulled the pre-flighted Turbinator out of its heated nest.....then took off for a flight. I noticed my collective was getting real stiff. I checked my collective friction and it was off. I immediately flew it back to the shop and the collective just was binding up badly. I was really concerned I had something wrong with the rotorshaft or elastomeric bearings....I just didnt know. I pulled the Turbinator in the heated hanger, and was really perplexed. I couldnt find anything that looked wrong...but a little later I noticed the collective was nice and loose again. I slapped my dumb forehead....or trying to slap the dumb grey matter that was behind it and realized it was just my grease thickening up on the collective slider. The 70 degree shop temp thinned out the grease again.

I cleaned the collective shaft off and applied Marvel mystery oil....and then just took it outside to let it acclimate to the single cold temps. It never stiffened a bit.....so since then...its Marvel Mystery oil in the winter...and now grease till next winter.

A few shots of grease on some zerks....and the machine is ready for its next mission. Next is a nice was job as the TV crew is coming up Thursday to tape the TV show segment. Got to go prean its feathers!

Stan

[titanhank]

stan, you need to watch that moroso oil cooler very close after taking the guts out. i blew one apart this morning. i was turning the drive train without the blades at 14000 rpm to check a few things and i heard of pop. the pressure actually broke one of the t15 screws and let the o-ring bulge out. this sprayed progear 21 everywhere. i have spent the entire morning cleaning up the mess. i am not sure taking the guts have had any effect, but i know i can't run the thing on my transmission.


hank canup
03-04

[StanFoster]

Hank- I would almost bet $100 that you had the filter put in backwards blocking the exiting oil. There is only one way it will work correctly. One way the oil flows easily, the other way the oil pressure actually forces the filters base to seal off the exiting port. I could see the oil pump blowing the o-rings or blowing out the end like yours did. I studied this intensely when I installed mine. Later I took the filter out all together as I have a nice filter anyway on the transmission. The main transmission has low oil pressure during operation. I had an 8 pound pressure switch that would flicker, so I went to a 2 pound switch. My instrument panel has a bright red light that will catch my attention immediately if I lose oil pressure for whatever reason plus I monitor the oil temperature as well. That Morosso oil cooler really keeps my oil cooler on hot days. Stan

[StanFoster]

Sometime ago I had noticed my battery cables that I ran together had their insulation warm enough to bond to each other. I separated them to let them generate less heat during the torcherous amperage draw while spooling the turbine up. I have 2 Odyssey 680 batteries running through #4 copper starting cable for a distance of 3.5 feet. There has to be some voltage drop , so this morning I changed out my # 4 cable to #2 copper. My cables shouldn't get near as warm now, plus I should see more available voltage at the starter. Stan

[titanhank]

stan. my cooler was gutted. no filter installed at all. just keep an eye on it.

[ylf]

Hank,
Have you verified the orientation of the filter in the transmission? I can't see how it could have made that much pressure, especially at that RPM, unless something was blocking the flow.

Mike

[StanFoster]

Hank- You are absolutely correct about watching thst oil cooler, or any oil line in my opinion. Before I installed my oil cooler, I didn't like the idea of oil flowing outside the transmission thru aluminum tubing, just for the fact that I only had an oil temperature gauge. I could see an oil leak pumping out my transmission oil and no indication in the cabin. I doubt my temp gauge would tell me. Thats why I have a red idiot light in my dash. Its tested everytime I spin the rotors up. The light is glowing until the rotors are between 50 and 100 rpm, then it goes out. I love knowing if I lose oil pressure in either the turbine or the main transmission, I have a light to tell me to land NOW! Stan

[titanhank]

i have the same setup of lights and low pressure switches. everything works fine and with no obstructions to fluid flow. i am guessing the fluid could not exit the cooler fast enough. i have installed the factory cooler for the checkout and will replace it latter.

[titanhank]

stan, found out why the cooler exploded. blake called me today after seeing the post of helicycle builders and suggested i pull the filter in the trans. it was put in backwards. it came from the factory that way. all fixed now. i am going to get another cooler tommorrow since i already have all the mounting stuff made.


hank

[RotorTom]

stan, found out why the cooler exploded. blake called me today after seeing the post of helicycle builders and suggested i pull the filter in the trans. it was put in backwards. it came from the factory that way. all fixed now. i am going to get another cooler tommorrow since i already have all the mounting stuff made.
hank

Dang, Stan is always right!

[All_In]

Dang, Stan is always right!
Hi Tom
I know and when he isn't HE tells me and provides the correct answer always gives credit to folks like Nicolas who help him with any solution.

With my buddy you really get the good, bad, and ugly on everything he does so if you do not want to know the truth do not ask Stan.

I really respect him and appreciate that he has become one of my closest friends... I mean we have slept together and that doesn't even sound right to me.:eek:

[StanFoster]

I mentioned earlier that my battery cable going to my starter gets pretty warm on a long startup. I changed out the #4 to a larger #2 copper wire the other day. It really makes a difference on the rpm's that it will crank up to. A turbine needs a lot of battery juice and now I just gave it a bigger straw. The wire runs much cooler now.

Stan

[gyroman]

Hey Stan..

Can I have that gyro sitting in the background since its not going to be used any time soon? :peace:

[StanFoster]

Toby- Money talks........:yo: Just dont tell John....:tape:



Stan

[All_In]

Toby- Money talks........:yo: Just dont tell John....:tape:
Stan
WHAT you little :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored:!!!!

Boy do I have to watch this guy!!!!

Sledge hammers, uses it as scaffolding to work on the stairs with glue all over the place, dust on the windows and NOW HE SELLING HER!

Dang now I have to highjack a spy satellite to watch Stan's shop 24/7?

That will take about an hour I do not have... but I'll direct it through Stan's cell IP (he left his phone on) so the FBI will come see him.... Hehehehe

[9aplus]

Any complete HC KIT, building not started or in early stage, available?
If any, pls PM, I like to buy for reasonable amount of $ ....

PM
Shipment to EU land....

[StanFoster]

9aplus- Go to Homer Bells site at www.kitcopterconsult.com and you will find several Helicycles for sale from complete untouched kits to Helicycles already flying. Many reasons one sells anything and money is a big motivator! Stan

[9aplus]

Tnx Stan...

If possible, rather like direct deal with owner.....

[StanFoster]

Todd Sanderson flew over to see the Turbinator fly. I had never started my turbine with the #2 battery cable till Todd came. Man, what a difference that cable made! Much quicker to built the rpm's up....and much higher rpm's as well. My egt temps have never been high...but they were running about 100 degrees cooler now with all the extra air being pumped. Had I known this would have made that much difference...I would have initially put in a #2 instead of the #4 cable.

Todd was taking notes for changing a few things on his Helicycle. He is going to add the backup battery, the Moroso oil cooler, the #2 cable, the dual oil return lines, and a few other details. One nice thing is Todd weighs around 180....and he can use the super lightweight lithium ion batteries.....6 pounds instead of 30 pounds. I would use them but I need that 30 pounds of ballast back on the tailboom to balance out my big butt.

I can only imagine how Todds machine will perform with 50 pounds lighter gross weight.



I love experimentals as you can indeed experiment to find ways to improve them.


Stan

[StanFoster]

Out in the shop early today just getting the Turbinator a proctology exam. Its just part of the pre-flight where I reach in the exhaust pipe and grab on to the turbine wheel...:D and feel for any movement. I think the turbine moved when it was grabbed, but so would I have jumped!!:smokin: I snapped some pictures.

The Turbinator is ready for some flying today. I quit uploading videos as I have over 130 now on YouTube...and I lost my skid mount when I installed my landing gear fairings.

Almost 2 years on this ship and it honestly has required by far the least hours of maintenance of any gyro I have owned......knocking on wood here hard! My hats off to B.J. Schramm for designing such a nice helicopter and at a low price in my opinion,,,,and all done withouth high volume.


Stan

[Resasi]

You sound a happy couple Stan, you and your lovely bird, and boy can you make her sit up and talk.

[StanFoster]

Leigh- I indeed love my Turbinator. After giving the proctology exam, we had a mission today. I flew to a fly-in today and all the pilots were talking how bad the wind and thermals were. In fact, only one out of four flew, the rest drove instead. One guy almost wrecked his trike. It was 92 degrees and I thought this was a good time to see how many degrees of collective it took to hover. I had a full load of fuel and was also full of a ribeye steak. On cooler days it typically takes 10 degrees of collective, but today it took 11 degrees. I love that temporary laser mounted on my collective giving me that info. I wish now I would have tried an OGE hover just to see if it took 12 degrees. I m going to mount that laser permanently in the center of my collective handle. My thumb simply fires the laser and it puts a laser dot on my graduated degree scale. Stan

[StanFoster]

I had to ground my bird yesterday after another smooth flight. The controls were smooth but were taking a little more force to move the cyclic. This had been slowly creeping up on me as I was asking myself the other day if the controls werent tightening up a little. Its kind of like an old pair of shoes.....you get accustomed to the subtle changes.

I got out and looked over the controls....all looked fine....until I moved the collective up and down.....and noticed my cyclic was rocking back and forth as the collective was going up and down. This also was slowly creeping in on me as I could recall the cylcic moving a little before....but it was so subtle that I wrote it off as just a slight more drag on one blade assembly. But machines always talk to you ,,,,softly at first, then louder and louder. It was speaking to me very loudly now, even though I was just hovering perfectly with it with finesse control.

I took the pitch arms off and blade #1 was nice and free....but blade #2 was not!:rant: It could be moved full range but had several more pounds required to move it. This helicopter was GROUNDED!

I thought about this all last night and couldnt wait to get to my shop this morning.

I went out to the shop extra early today and knew my mind would not be on the curved stairway in the other room until I at least had my rotor apart and found out what ever it is I needed to order. I am thinking some elastomeric bearings.....

I decided to not take the whole rotor off...but just one blade and fix it in the air. This would save me a lot of time.

You have to have the blades supported before you remove the big bolt that secures it to the blade grip. I simply sling some nylon strapping on one blade....and put a 2 inch piece of foam up near the top of my 8 ft stepladder. This makes a nice coning and takes the awful stresses off the bladegrip if I did not do this.

I took the blade off out of its precision fit blade grip...you would not believe the tolerance there....and anti-seize is a must!

I soon had the blade grip removed by taking out the 8 allen head screws. It slid off and my pitch horn still was stubborn to move freely.

In the one picture you can see the two nuts that are locked together and held with a roll pin from turning. I suspected that if I took the locknut loose...and rotated the main nut just a smidgeon....it would free up, and it instantly did! I worked the pitch horn and inspected my elastomeric bearing. I could see it twisting on itself....no damage to it. My theory is that after almost two years of flying....the elastomeric bearing has swelled a few thousandths and took up the 0.005 slack it is supposed to have.

I called Doug Schwochert for his thoughts, but he is out of state giving birth to another Helicycle. I just wanted to ask him if he had this happen to him, and I would guess several times. I am knew at this, but played with the adjustment....any more tighter...and it started getting draggy, and any looser exceeded the 0.005 clearance. I was completely satisfied and reinstalled everything....more antiseize as I installed the blade easily but carefully by myself. Put torque seal on all the bolts.....and it is now RETURNED TO SERVICE!!!

I have been warned many times that I would be working on my Helicycle more than I would be flying it. Well......just for today that holds true. It took me a total of 2 hours of work......and now dont have time to fly more than that,,,I have to work on my stairway!

So far, this is the single largest maintenance item I have had in two years. Not too bad in my opinion. B.J. designed a stout little tractor here.

The last picture shows my trusty ol 10 pounder sledge for knocking this very tight tolerance control rod ends into alignment. It doesnt take much of a swing to either get the rod end in place...or swell it.....ha

Stan

[ylf]

Stan, glad that's all that was wrong, was it difficult getting the lock pin out of the castle nut? Seems like once the pin is "staked" in place it'd be tough to get back out.

Mike

[utahgyrocop]

Love the updates Stan. One question, 2 hours serious maintenance (not counting routine checks and preventative) out of how many hours on the Turbinator now???

Thanks and as always, stay safe.

[StanFoster]

Heath - I passed a hundred hours some time ago. I have always heard stuff like if you own a helicopter...you will work on it one hour for every hour of flying. Some helicopters yes....but that is one of the big reasons I went with a Helicycle is that my maintenance hours to flying hours would likely be a low ratio. So far....much lower than expected. Knocking on wood.....of course I could be buried in maintenance with this thing....but if its like most of the others.....the maintenance will be low.

Other than normal lubing and checking over, I have constantly looked for something to adjust on this thing. I check my fuel flow, belt tension, and just have wondered for about a year now when something would come up.

I have said this before...but I have more hours working on just my pre-rotators on both my RAF and my SparrowHawk than I have working on this whole machine for two years. That isnt counting flat tires, engine coolant leaks, alternator work on the SparrowHawk, constant messing with my brakes, fuel tank leaks, propeller work, etc.

Stan

[StanFoster]

Mike- I just took an 1/8 inch pin punch and tapped the pin out. I put it back in and restaked it. Now that I have been enlightened about this, part of my preflight will be to raise and lower the collective and simply observe that this collective movement doesn't cause the cyclic to move. While flying the other day, my hand on the cyclic didn't feel any movement. I simply caught it early, and I only had to back the nut out just a few thousandths. I am glad it happened as these kind of experiences teach me more than anything, and I like to share here so others can learn along with me. Stan

[ylf]

Thanks for posting your experiences Stan, I know it will save me time down the road, actually it already has. The setting of the bearing gap is still fresh in my mind from watching the video and assembling my grips about a month ago. Mike

[Resasi]

Stan I feel that your meticulous assembly, the intimate knowledge of your machine, and your regular pre-flights and attention to any small matters requiring attention are re-paid by the seemingly low maintainance required.

In fact your maintainance is continuous and on-going in small amounts and adds up. The way you do it makes it seem small, but is very probably the ideal way to do it. Make it part of everyday flying.

[baronpilot]

I would disagree a little. He has tweaked much more than maintained. Proper built and operated the Helicycle is about as maintenance free as you can get. It is all in the design. My Bonanza is the same way. It is 45 years old and requires virtually nothing but oil changes between annuals. My Pipers, cessnas, socatas, etc were always needing something fixed on every flight. The Helicycle uses a dirt simply rotor system along with stout gearboxes, a simple clutch, and a great power plant that requires no tuning. From what I can gather true maintenance (not improving the design) may be 1 hour for every 10 hours of flight once everything is dialed in. I think I am being very conservative in that estimate.

[StanFoster]

Todd- I agree with your assessment. Right after I started flying my Helicycle in 2010, I started a maintenance thread. I hardly posted in it, then just quit entirely. I soon found out that my experience was going to mirror most other Helicycle pilots...........proving that not all helicopters are maintenance nightmares. Todd, I bet your experiences mirror we Helicycle pilots that are putting hundreds of hours , and even one now with over 1200 hours. No commissions for me, but just being honest, this thing is the most dependable machine I have ever owned. Stan

[Resasi]

Todd, I agree, he's just a big Tweaker.

Probably right guys, just a great design that is simple and easy to keep going.


Hmm, had a feeling about that term. Actually anybody less likely to be a 'tweaker' :smokin:is Stan. Now a mechanical tweaker...'nother matter.:)

[StanFoster]

Leigh- I am by no means a super mechanic.....if I were.....I would not have had 18 forced landings in gyros and 2 in a helicopter:D But, I do attribute some credit to trying to be precise. I have seen other Helicycles that are beautifully built....and some...not so welll built. So, in a little diverging opinion with Todd....yes its a good design....but there is a big difference on how any kit is put together. Any good design usually can be improved and I feel I have tweaked mine to better my odds.


Maybe those forced landings have caused me to do some extra preventive measures. My backup battery is on constant full charged standby that I verify on each preflight, but has not been needed yet. My fuel system is reguarly checked for free fuel flow, and yes...I did discover my fuel filter half plugged with green black algae which would have eventually starved my turbine for kerosene....but I found it and educated myself and now use Biobor in all my fuel....and also know where NOT to buy my kerosene again.

I try to meticulously check for any adjustments that may be needed....but I havent even had to tighten my drive belts after they seated in at 10 hours.

I didnt mention this......and I thought someone here would have pointed it out...but when I added a few thousandths of adjustment to my one rotorblade that had its elastomeric bearing tighten up a little, I was expecting to have to do the same to the other blade, but a couple of flights still show the blades very smooth. It would be a miniscule amount...but I thought it would have to be tweaked there.

There is a lot of difference how a ship is wired, and I dont even want to start on that.

So, yes, its a very good design....but I feel a meticulously built Helicycle....and there are many of them, deserve a little credit to the builder who meticulously put it together.

Kits sometime get throwed together......then there are kit builders that will never see whatever they are building fly, as they are obsessive meticulous and just never will complete the thing. The seals dry out as many years pass by while their perfect work is being done at a snails pace.

Somewhere between throwing it together and never gettting it built is where I want to be.

Stan

[brett s]

Attention to detail & taking the time to do things right makes a huge difference down the road in how much less you're fixing stuff later. And yeah, good design & hardware is also very important.

Things like how smooth it is matter a lot - everything wears out faster if it's beating itself to death.

[kstorm32]

Stan

Are you giong to install the new mixer that Eagle has come out with?

Ken-

[Duvan]

Ken
What is new about the mixer ?
Duvan

[StanFoster]

Ken- I heard they are coming out with a new improved mixer, but to be honest, I don't see a thing wrong with mine. There is no slop in it yet, but maybe when I am up pushing a thousand hours it will need it. For now, I am not even considering it. Stan

[kstorm32]

here is a picture

[StanFoster]

Time to change my turbine oil filter. I love being able to go up to my local NAPA Helicopter suppy store and pull this right off the shelf.

This filter has a bypass that if the filter is plugged....pressure will open up a spring loaded bypass. I inspect the filter and saw no FM at all. Previously oil filter changes had a few small flecks of fiberglass from boring oil line holes in my reservoir tank.


My parts guy automatically stocks any new part number I request...but this NAPA PS4944 is a standard stock item

Next oil change and filter will be my main transmission. It will be due right before my flight to Mentone.


Stan

[All_In]

Todd, I agree, he's just a big Tweaker.

Probably right guys, just a great design that is simple and easy to keep going.


Hmm, had a feeling about that term. Actually anybody less likely to be a 'tweaker' :smokin:is Stan. Now a mechanical tweaker...'nother matter.:)
Stan is a TWEAKER? :eek::der::lol: Speed kills!

[StanFoster]

John- I am tweaking again. The swashplate fairing is now painted...I will install it late Thursday. Stage 2 of my streamling will be complete....and stage 3 has been given the green light.


Stan

[SawdustShoppe]

Stan,

wasn't sure how to get this to you, your email has obivoously been comprmised, so i thought i try it this way. attache is an image of the scam email i got this morning.

Peace, Brad Mcfarland

[StanFoster]

Brad- Sorry i just now saw your post here. I had been hacked but immediately changed my password. No harm other than my requests for money to get back from the Olympics! Stan

[StanFoster]

Rain has set in all day and changed my flight plans for today.....so I decided it would be a good time for another fuel flow test. I simply tie up a 5 gallon fuel can...remove the fuel line going to turbine....turn on the fuel and time how long it takes to fill the 5 gallon can. It normally takes 12 minutes to run out 5 gallons....or 25 gallons an hour.

If you remember...I had my fuel flow test fail early last year as it was down to 20 gallons an hours. This immediately had me wondering what slowed it down 5 gallons an hour. I soon found some green/black algae on my gascolator screen that time. This prompted me to start using Biobor and its been a year and half since I started treating my fuel with Biobor.....3/4 of an ounce per 55 gallon drum of kerosene. End of that problem. My gascolator screen hasnt had so much as a speck the last year and a half. Todays fuel flow check was thumbs up with another 25 gallon per hour free flow.

Its that time of the year to install one of my doors...so on went the right side. I will put the other door on later in the year for flying all winter long.

Next I greased all the zerks.....and put my 5 gallons of kerosene back into it. It is trembling and ready for a possible mission tomorrow if this weather clears out. We are in need of this rain so it is very welcome.

Stan

[ylf]

Stan,
Is your flow test done with the electric pump on or off? I get just over 20 GPH with the pump on. My filter/separator has a 2 micron filter and I'm wondering if I should switch to the 10 micron filter.

Mike

[StanFoster]

Mike- I fill my tanks up for the same pressure, then it is just free flow gravity feed. This test discovered that one time my fuel was being restricted somewhere. It ended up being one bad batch of fuel I bought from another gas station as my main supplier was out. I am a firm believer in these kind of tests. Stan

[StanFoster]

I had another fuel flow test while the Turbinator was in its nest. Still right at 25 gallons an hour free flow. My Biobor treatment is working great. Haven't seen so much as a speck in my gascolator screen in over a year now.

Only had one time where I caught algae growing in my filter, and that was from a batch of fuel I bought from a local gas station. When I saw his storage tank, my jaw dropped like my collective in an auto!
These fuel flow tests is what discovered it.......on the ground.....instead of.....in the air. This initiated mt Biobor treatment from then on.
Stan

[Blue Chips]

Stan,
When / if you get a chance would you measure the distance from your foot pedals to the cabin right behind the seat?

Trying to figure how much room is needed.

Do you consider what you have as comfortable, cramped or just slightly cramped

Thanks
Ken

[StanFoster]

Ken- I am 6 ft. 2.....and not cramped at all. I believe a 6 Ft. 6 pilot could be comfortable.


Stan

[All_In]

Hey buddy where is stage 3 at now?

[StanFoster]

John- Phrase 3 has me just about to finish the port side panel. Soon it will be off to the painters and my local sign shop will be making me a set of angry faced Solar T-62 decals. I took the basic outline of the turbine and drew it out on my turbocad program. Added a mean mouth/eyes, and flames coming out its exhaust. I will put these decals on the white band on the new side panels, plus it will be on my new 2013 clothing line......hats and t-shirts soon.
Barbara thinks it would be nice for the grandkids to see choppapapa in a different looking shirt!

Here are some pictures of little aluminum box I had to make to hide the clutch engagement motor. I will use a little bondo to hide the rivets and notches on that front sloping section. Those twisting grey and black pinstripes are coming off they need to flow into the mad turbine decal that will be behind them. I may use some pinstripes looking like the turbine is sucking them in and exiting them as fire.

Stan

[All_In]

That is going to look SWEET once painted!!!

[StanFoster]

I thought this thread should have the finished streamlining pictures of my Helicycle. The belly pan was painted this week and was installed this morning. Now that this project is complete, I decided to roll it outside of my stairshop for a photo session before lighting off the turbine and go flying in it. :yo:


The first picture was taken in November of 2010, and it wasn't until the spring of 2012 did I start streamlining the landing gear.

Kind of a different looking helicopter in my opinion...whether you like it or not.

Barbara told me she really likes the change.....and that is nice when my wife and I strongly agree on something!

One of our granddaughters is staying over tonight...and she wants to go see choppapapa fly this thing.

By the way.....thanks everyone for the tremendous interest in this Helicyle Hatchery thread. I seldom post in it since it was completed, but it still has a residual life of its own as it continues to get many hits each week.

Stan

[All_In]

It is an awesome build thread that should help others that build from now on and I can see why it get so many hits.

And she looks awesome definitely one of a kind look!

[GyrOZprey]

Looks well finished - Looks FAAAAST! ....... Oh & it IS! ;)

Whenever I see pictures of other helicyles - now ... they look a bit naked to me!!!! :lol:


Congratulations Stan!! :first:

[All_In]

Yo Bro....
I have new Dragon Wings ... thank you Ernie!!!!

I need to learn everything you did from the sandpaper to polish and buffer used... please?

Where is the thread you posted on how you polished your blades?

[StanFoster]

John- Its buried in the thread, towards the middle.

I will call you.
Stan

[JEFF TIPTON]

John try post 1475, then skip to post 1710.

[All_In]

I found it Jeff!!!

I thought I would experiment with polishing one end of a rotor blade. I bought a 7 inch polisher...variable speed so I can run it slow and not heat up the aluminum. I did one set of doublers as that is the most work...started with 150 grit,..then 220....320.....and then 400. I was going to go to 600, but I got out the polish just to see what happened. It takes a lot of elbow grease on these blades before the power is applied. Once these blades are polished like a mirror....they will be easy to maintain with frequent polishing to get the bugs off. Its going to take probably a daily on each blade whenever I get going on them.

I am glad I decided not to paint the blades....no paint to worry about coming off....changing the balance...

Stan

Thank you!!!

[StanFoster]

I installed a storage bin under the left side of my seat a couple of years ago, and lately decided to add another bin on the right side.

Lots of ways to cut the fiberglass out of course...I just used my pet "bone saw|
" . It is a reciprocating saw that vibrates either a semi-circular blade as shown here....or other many styles. I call it a bone saw because this is very similar to what doctors use on patients to notch or cut their bones during an operation. That saw is awesome for notching out hardwood also etc.

The first bin is so handy, not only for storage, but for also taking out and inspecting the belly of my fuselage. I can get to my wiring, fuel lines..and one side of the cyclic controls.

This new box just added now lets me see the other side of the cyclic controls, more wiring, and my aux fuel pump.

The first storage bin had more room, and is larger. For comparison....I can put 20 boxes of 50 rounds each of 9 mm bullets in the larger bin and 12 boxes of 50 in the smaller bin.

The Helicycle is storage challenged and these boxes sure help.

Stan

[StanFoster]

John- Here's the tools you will need to polish your blades to a mirror finish.

A 5 inch random orbit sander..hook & loop. I prefer a DeWalt sander.....just bought one at Lowe's for $55.00

Progressively finer 5 inch sanding discs. More than likely you will only find the grit size down to 220 locally. Any finer and you just order them online.

Start with 150-220-320-400--------then go to 600 and 800.

In my opinion, any finer grit will net you diminishing returns.

Next you will need a bonnet polisher. I bought a variable speed 7 inch one at Harbor Freight for around $70.00

A 3 or so bottles of Purple polish.

A shop apron to keep the Purple polish being flung off the bonnet polisher getting on your clothes.

After you progressively sand the blades down to the finest grit, next comes the bonnet polisher with Purple applied.

Use a speed that doesn't wildly fling the Purple off, and continually feel the aluminum for temperature. You don't want to get it hot, but just warm.

The end result will be aluminum that is a mirror finish.

I have observed aluminum blades that were only polished with Purple, without the progressive sanding beforehand. Though they are shiny, there is a difference. A bonus is that the more time you put into progressively sanding toyr blades before polishing them, the less time you will spend keeping them like a mirror.

Just like most everything in life, the difference between a good job and an excellent one is just a little more time.

Stan










You will need shop apron

[All_In]

U-Rock Bro!!!

I'll do that and your storage compartment is looking good!

[StanFoster]

John- The very next day after I cut in the storage box, I needed to look in the hole with a mirror. I want to reroute my aux tank transfer line so I can monitor it in flight.

Much simpler getting into the belly of my cabin by lifting out the storage box, than having to unbolt the lower cabin belly seam.


Stan

[All_In]

Hi Buddy

Brilliant, I like it and it still looks like it was design that way = factory built!

There is nothing amateur about anything you build Bro, and you always share it with us, your adopted family!
Thank you

[StanFoster]

John- I will always remember your influence on me to make my swashplate fairing larger than I was going to. You were honest enough to tell me what you think, and it resonated with my gut feelings that I was ignoring.

I am very satisfied with how it turned out.

Stan

[All_In]

Brother you can leave that part out.
I know you won't because you are so honest, but please do they all know by now?

However it is hard to tell you friends the truth once they make up their mind = because I'm the same way. You always risk them getting upset and taking it as condemnation like all of the "It will never work" business idea critics. Then when it does work these same people tell you they knew it would work.

Anyway she is one of a kind sexy looking helicycle!!

[GyrOZprey]

Yo Bro....
I have new Dragon Wings ... thank you Ernie!!!!

I need to learn everything you did from the sandpaper to polish and buffer used... please?

Where is the thread you posted on how you polished your blades?



John WHY do you feel the need to sand more on brand new shiney factory blades???

Stan - with new "ready-to fly" blades already factory sanded & polished why start @ 150 grit ... why not just do 400- 600-800????? I wonder what the final grit was used @ factory (RFD /Dragon Wings)

Trying to understand the concept here!!

Also as a raw beginner ... I'd be worried about taking off too much material & messing up the balance.... etc!!!! :rolleyes:

I would LIKE to work on mine while they are down on the stands .... remove some small "hanger-rashes"!!

[StanFoster]

Chris- I had mentioned that I do not know what level of sanding Johns blades were done to, and of course you are correct not to resand at a rougher grit. But, whatever grit they are sanded to, taking it to even finer and finer grit will give it a deeper shine. Trust me. Maybe Ernie can chime in here and state what grit they are sanded to at the factory. If say they are sanded down to 400....600 will be better. Getting down to 800 even better, but finer 1000 grit is to the point of diminishing returns
I told John for all practicality...600 grit is good enough and will produce a deep shine.

What a lot don't understand is you can go take your Purple polish to unsanded aluminum, and get it very shiny. Shiny don't cut it with me when you look closely at it and don't see the deep shine.

Chris- at Mentone, I ask you to look real close at my main rotor blades, and my tail rotor blades. Both are very shiny, but my main rotor blades were sanded down to 1000 grit, and my tail rotor to only 320 grit. I did that on purpose to show how both are shiny, but my tail rotor does not have a deep mirror finish that my main rotor has.

Stan

[All_In]

John WHY do you feel the need to sand more on brand new shiney factory blades???
...
Hi Chris
Because I saw the difference it makes between is blades and his tail rotor blades and I'd like them as shinny as Stan's.

I'm told that if I do this my blades will be easier to clean and keep polished = less maintenance.

But good point I'll ask Ernie if it's aright and what grit to start with if he says it is OK!

Thank you Chris!!

[scottessex]

Just like polishing paint, if you buff and polish over rock chips, or orange peel, you are going to get shiney chips, and really shiney orange peel...On good un oxidized aluminum I would start with the finest grade of sandpaper that give a nice uniform finish. Then go progressively finer and finer. When I was painting cars and motorcycles, I would wet sand the fresh paint with 1000-1200-then 1500 or 2000 grit before polishing.
I know aluminum is not the same as paint, but the polishing concept is the same.