Original Air Command 447 Commander Promo Video!

[DennisFetters]

Here is the video that pretty much started it all, the old 447 Commander video by Air Command Mfg. Inc.

I don't know how many thousands of these we shipped worldwide, but it was the first impression many had of a gyroplane.

The quality is not so good, the tape this was copied off was run by the owner over and over. I think it even had some dried drool, but this is it until I find a better one.

Please enjoy a part of Gyroplane history at its greatest time, it's in two parts;


Part 1; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYuHR1Eet3w

Part 2; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaCw6c5bsoI



.

[Timchick]

Cool videos.

[ezeddie]

Dennis,
Now that is a "stock" 477 right? and your AUW was what? Very nice flying, love those sideways slides.......:hail: ..

eddie.............

[bones]

"And only about 6 hrs to build"
What a load of f*cking horse ****.
The A/C we got came in a bout 6 packages and 6 million pieces, and took about 6 months to put together, every nut,bolt,washer, was shrink wrapped in little groups, with instructions that looked like my 8 years old drew, hell the easiest thing to put together was the rotors and the prop.

You know i am yet to find a manufacterer whom can honestly say everything that they say about their product is true, and if it ever happens i will be the first congradulate them for their honesty.

[Gyro-nut]

Nice video's... makes me wanna jump in my 447 A/C right now (even though it's single digit temps outside)

[DennisFetters]

"And only about 6 hrs to build"
What a load of f*cking horse ****.
The A/C we got came in a bout 6 packages and 6 million pieces, and took about 6 months to put together, every nut,bolt,washer, was shrink wrapped in little groups, with instructions that looked like my 8 years old drew, hell the easiest thing to put together was the rotors and the prop.

You know i am yet to find a manufacterer whom can honestly say everything that they say about their product is true, and if it ever happens i will be the first congradulate them for their honesty.

Mark, You can eat your words anytime. When that video was made, the Commander was sold in knockdown form, where all the sup-assemblies were put together by the factory. As a matter of fact, the famous Jim Campbell, may he rot in hell, was the editor of Sport Pilot magazine, and the Commander you see folded and rolling through the door in the video was one I alone working was timed to unbox and assemble in our showroom in front of him, and then rolled outside and flew. All within 4 hours.

Later models came with less assembly to meet homebuilt requirements, which was explained in our literature that you could assemble it in a weekend. Heat-shrink packing was the only way I could get people from asking for free parts. On an average we were giving away $80 per aircraft to people that said they didn't get a part or parts, until we required them to send the empty part of the vacuum packed card with the plastic intact to prove something was missing, and after that we never had to send out any free parts.

[DennisFetters]

Dennis,
Now that is a "stock" 477 right? and your AUW was what? Very nice flying, love those sideways slides.......:hail: ..

eddie.............

Yes Eddie, that was as stock as it came. I'm sorry, it's midnight and I'm fried. what is a AUW?

[Gyro_Kai]

Very nice video. I missed the "even fly backwards" footage :)

Kai.

[ezeddie]

Dennis, AUW is, what I understand the "all up weight" the "gross" flying weight, aircraft, liquids, pilot, and anything else that will be going up with you.

Kai, look at it again, IMHO in two or three places where the gyro appears to be hovering you can see it going or sliding backwards.
eddie...........

[CLS447]

I watched that video a million times & drooled. We purchased 2 machines & trained with Bill Parsons.

Without a doubt it was a dream that came true for me & still does!

I enjoyed building mine & I think that was a smart idea with the shrink wrap.

Thanks Dennis Still the best looking machine !

[CopterCenturian]

Dennis,

The videos, despite the condition, are a nice piece of the historical record of a very fine gyroplane. What ever came of the "hyrdo drive"? Are there any new designs or improvements in the near future in the Air Command line?

Safe=Fun,
Ken

[DennisFetters]

Dennis, AUW is, what I understand the "all up weight" the "gross" flying weight, aircraft, liquids, pilot, and anything else that will be going up with you.

Kai, look at it again, IMHO in two or three places where the gyro appears to be hovering you can see it going or sliding backwards.
eddie...........

I'm awake now Eddie.

The 447 Commander weighed 252 pounds empty, held 5 gallons of fuel, and would fly a 210 pound pilot (me in the video). Options were the main wheel hydraulic brakes, Prerotator and Rotorbrake. Any option put it over the ultralight weight limit, but back then we called it "safety equipment" which was exempt. hehehe, until the Fed's figured it out, that is.... I estimate what you saw flying in the video was around 515 pounds on 40 hp.

[DennisFetters]

I watched that video a million times & drooled. We purchased 2 machines & trained with Bill Parsons.

Without a doubt it was a dream that came true for me & still does!

I enjoyed building mine & I think that was a smart idea with the shrink wrap.

Thanks Dennis Still the best looking machine !


Thank you Chris!

[DennisFetters]

Dennis,

The videos, despite the condition, are a nice piece of the historical record of a very fine gyroplane. What ever came of the "hydro drive"? Are there any new designs or improvements in the near future in the Air Command line?

Safe=Fun,
Ken

You know, I found some walk-around footage of that! During development of the Hydro-Drive, some guy came into my office one day named Lord Hallimore, wanted to know more about the Hydro-Drive system, and purchased the rights for it on the spot before it was finished, and I signed an agreement not to build another. After I demonstrated some jump takeoffs to him, he had a big truck pull up same day and loaded the Gyro with the Hydro-Drive, and a SxS Two-Place Commander he purchaced and drove away. That was the last I seen of it, or him.

The only thing I have left is the walk-around inspection video that we took the morning before the first jumps, which is the one I took the winter flying video off of. Hallimore took the jump-takeoff videos, and then would not give me a copy. I about killed my helper that had his video camera, because he didn't take any video because Hallimore's camera was better and he told John that he would give us a copy.

If interested, I'll make a short film of our walk-around video and post it. I think it has a part on there where I was explaining about it as I was freezing.

[Passin' Thru]

What ever came of the "hyrdo drive"?

Not to shift the focus of the thread, but a couple of comments; Benssen was also working (or at least talking) on the same idea, but it went dead in both camps. I don't know why, I thought it was a great idea, at least conceptualy, though its execution may have had some problems. Oil cooling may have been one. Another issue of consideration was prop and blade rotation. Idealy, the prop (viewed from the rear) and the blades (viewed from the top) would turn in the same direction for torque considerations.

Perhaps Dennis could share some of his findings?

Opps! Posted before seeing last post! (I type too slow!)

[gyroplanes]

I have to say that building a 447 Commander was easier for some, than others. I was a dealer and sold a bunch of these machines. Some folks called me every day with questions. Some called three days later, with a flying gyro.
My record for a 447 Air Command build was 8 hours.

To test the Air Command manuals adequacy, I had my wife build a 447 commander. She came into the house to ask me "what's a torque wrench"? The rest was answered by the manual. Her build time was 24 hours.

I mentioned my wife's "test" to fellow Air Command dealer, Ed Alderfer. Ed said he had also convinced his wife to build one as a test. I believe Bernadine's time was similar to my Barb's.

I had a customer build a decked out 532 Commander Elite in a weekend. He torque rolled it during the very final stages of engine break-in. It flew the next weekend.

[gyroplanes]

I think Larry Neal used to call himself "Lord Hallimore" ?
:-))

[DennisFetters]

I think Larry Neal used to call himself "Lord Hallimore" ?
:-))

Hallimore was an Englishman around 65 years old, always traveled with his wife, told amassing stories when working with Von Bron shooting the first US satellite into orbit, had military connections. Amazing guy. Can't find a thing about his on the Internet or anywhere.

[Doug Riley]

That was a nostalgic rush. Took me back to the 80's, flying box-stock 447 Commanders with my buddy, the late Bill Raub. Bill trained with Duane Hunn. He later died in the crash of a FW motorglider.

Power management was important with only 40 hp. When showing off in a 447 gyro, as with a 65 hp Cub, you need to emphasize slow-flight tricks (like "sideways" radical slips facing a headwind) or else build airspeed at full bore in ground effect before you yank 'n' bank.

I upgraded to a 503 DC and H-stab after the old 447 wore out. Both additions made it more fun and versatile.

[gyromike]

Doug,

The video claimed a 1000 fpm climb rate.
Did yours climb that well?

[Doug Riley]

Mike, I don't want to hurt Dennis's feelings (this is ancient history, after all) but, no, not in the way we usually measure it.

If, as I mentioned before, you dove down and skimmed the runway for awhile with the tap wide-open, then popped up and caught a favorable wind gradient -- maybe for a few seconds.

On a warm summer day, starting at a base altitude of about 800 ft. ASL, I struggled to get 300 ft./min. Getting over hills on X-C could be nerve-wracking. I tended to fly around them if there weren't any thermals about.

My old VW Bensen was even worse, though. OTOH, the 447 Gyrobee, stripped to the bone and with 24.5 ft. Rotordynes, weighs less than the Air Comm. and does a bit better.

I weighed about 170 at the time; I have since porked on up to 180.

[gyromike]

The reason I asked was that after hearing about the current GyroBees that are actually ultralight legal not having a very good climb rate, how could the A.C. climb so well?

Now that I think about it, one of our chapter members had one a few years ago, and on a hot day it would not climb very well at all.

[DennisFetters]

The reason I asked was that after hearing about the current GyroBees that are actually ultralight legal not having a very good climb rate, how could the A.C. climb so well?

Now that I think about it, one of our chapter members had one a few years ago, and on a hot day it would not climb very well at all.

Sure, you can slap all the conditions of flying on a worse day scenario you want, and make any aircraft fly bad, or not so good.

The facts are that we advertised a 1000 FPM climb with a 160 pound pilot at an ambient temperature of 58 degrees. We were, in fact adverting it's best features, as all companies do.

The performance of the 447 Commander was as good as could be done and still meet the Ultralight regulations, and we did. If you wanted better performance outside of the Ultralight category, then bolt on our Rotax 503 or 582.

[DennisFetters]

OK, I posted some video of the Hydro-Drive system on another thread.

[DennisFetters]

Not to shift the focus of the thread, but a couple of comments; Benssen was also working (or at least talking) on the same idea, but it went dead in both camps. I don't know why, I thought it was a great idea, at least conceptualy, though its execution may have had some problems. Oil cooling may have been one. Another issue of consideration was prop and blade rotation. Idealy, the prop (viewed from the rear) and the blades (viewed from the top) would turn in the same direction for torque considerations.

Perhaps Dennis could share some of his findings?

Opps! Posted before seeing last post! (I type too slow!)

Actually it stunk. Hydraulics is no way to spin up a set of rotorblades, is what I learned.

It's inefficient and creates a lot of heat and leaks all over the place, like as if marking it's forever-expanding territory. You have to time the torque curve with the engine where you have enough power to turn the prop and still have enough power to spin the rotors up to over-speed. Releasing the power to the rotors had to be perfectly at the same time you popped the pitch to the blades.

It's far better to apply the power mechanically.

[GyroDoug]

Dennis,

I really enjoyed watching these 2 videos. Thank you for sharing them with us!! I am curious to know what your feeling are about the changes that have been made to your design to bring it closer to a center thrust line and to add a horizontal stabilizer. Do you feel like they have improved the stability of the machine? Just curious to know how you feel about the direction Gyro design is going.

Thanks,

Gyro Doug

[junkyardbear]

Hi Dennis,
enjoyed the videos and man I wish I could fly like that!

[DennisFetters]

Dennis,
I really enjoyed watching these 2 videos. Thank you for sharing them with us!! I am curious to know what your feeling are about the changes that have been made to your design to bring it closer to a center thrust line and to add a horizontal stabilizer. Do you feel like they have improved the stability of the machine? Just curious to know how you feel about the direction Gyro design is going.
Thanks,
Gyro Doug

I'm glad you enjoyed. I did too, it's been years since I've seen them. My answer below is not just to you, but the group. My answer will be made into a controversy by some, but you did ask me, and I'm not going to get into another debate and argument just because someone don't like my answer.

We added the horizontal stabilizer when we came out with the pod. We sold horizontal stabilizers to anyone that wanted them.

The open-frame gyroplane can be flown perfectly safe without horizontals or CLT, and thousands over the years demonstrated that then, and even now.

Yes, a horizontal will make an open frame Commander fly with better stability, that's a no-brainier for anyone. Do you need more stability? Some people do, some people don't, again it's obvious.

Horizontal stabilizers are absolutely needed if the gyro has a pod or enclosure. Some will say I'm wrong saying "look at an RAF, people fly them without, and have no problem". That is true, but our testing showed me otherwise, so I always use a horizontal stabilized with a pod or enclosure.

What do I think about the Air Command CLT conversion kits? I think it looks ridiculous and ugly. It put Air Command out of business because they can't sell new gyroplanes. They needed to scrape the classic design and redesign a completely new gyroplane that would use better CLT and that didn't look like an erector set.

As for those that already owned a Commander that felt like they would be more comfortable flying CLT on their Air Command, sure, sell them an upgrade kit, and then go on to a new design that would sell better. Hell, look at the cash the new Air Command made riding the CLT scare wave!! I would have LOVED to sell all those conversions!

I have said before, CLT is a way to improve some characteristics of the gyroplane. In my day, the biggest problem was flying the Mac engine, and the Rotax was the big solution to the problem we had at-hand for those days.

Now this is really going to get some britches in an uproar...

CLT gyro's of today are designed wrong to take advantage of CLT in the best way. We knew the benefits of CLT back then before I sold Air Command and stopped developing gyros to start designing helicopters. Before I sold Air Command I had already designed my next generation gyroplane to have CLT characteristics, but my solution is nothing like the stop-gap solution you have today. With my solution you don't need to have a gangly erector set gyroplane.

What was, or is my solution? Someday I'll show you.

[Racer]

Dennis, You have been sharing some really cool stuff with us lately, Thank you, I have been enjoying it.

[Passin' Thru]

Dennis, You have been sharing some really cool stuff with us lately, Thank you, I have been enjoying it.

I agree! now we're talking about some interesting stuff! ;)

But Dennis, I thought gyros were supposed to be ugly! So damned ugly the earth repells them and makes them fly better!

[DennisFetters]

I agree! now we're talking about some interesting stuff! ;)

But Dennis, I thought gyros were supposed to be ugly! So damned ugly the earth repells them and makes them fly better!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...... There are some people that think little baby alligators are cute...... Problem is, just not enough think so to make a living selling them.

The earth does not repel, any designer know that, so looks have nothing to do with how they fly! I thought everyone knew that a gyroplane flys by beating the the air into submission??

[Passin' Thru]

The earth does not repel, any designer know that, so looks have nothing to do with how they fly! I thought everyone knew that a gyroplane flys by beating the the air into submission??

OH! I stand corrected!:sorry: :D

[Gyropilot007]

Dennis:

I'd love to hear about your revolutionary new CLT design. I do agree that some of conversions are down right ugly!!

Bob

[animal]

yes I would also...of course I am one of those that does think a baby Alligator is cute....:)

[GyroDoug]

What was, or is my solution? Someday I'll show you.

Dennis,

I realize that giving away something that you put a lot of time and work into may seem like a bad thing to do. I would suggest that you consider sharing your ideas with the Gyro world. Since you have no more desire to design, build and sell Gyros and have moved on to a higher (or at least different) field of work, you are not really losing anything, and the Gyro World and the sport that we all love might greatly be influenced by ideas that you have had and are willing to share.

I recently remember reading another thread where the person posting had come up with an idea that they thought would revolutionize rotary flight and they wanted everyone to be able to take advantage of it. Rather than see one person be the first to get it to the patent office so that they could have a monopoly on the technology, they purposely spread the word by posting details of what they had done so far all over the internet so that the information became part of the public domain and could not be patented.

You have dedicated much of your life to promoting Rotary Winged Flight in Gyroplanes. You obviously still care about the Gyro World since you spend time hanging out with us here on the forum. So why not make your ideas on how center line thrust should be used, available to everyone. Who knows, someone may take your idea and further develop it until it becomes the new dominant Gyro design in the world. Wouldn't that be a Giant feather in your cap? Come on, Share!!!!!

Gyro Doug

[DennisFetters]

Dennis,
I realize that giving away something that you put a lot of time and work into may seem like a bad thing to do. I would suggest that you consider sharing your ideas with the Gyro world. Since you have no more desire to design, build and sell Gyros and have moved on to a higher (or at least different) field of work, you are not really losing anything, and the Gyro World and the sport that we all love might greatly be influenced by ideas that you have had and are willing to share.
I recently remember reading another thread where the person posting had come up with an idea that they thought would revolutionize rotary flight and they wanted everyone to be able to take advantage of it. Rather than see one person be the first to get it to the patent office so that they could have a monopoly on the technology, they purposely spread the word by posting details of what they had done so far all over the internet so that the information became part of the public domain and could not be patented.
You have dedicated much of your life to promoting Rotary Winged Flight in Gyroplanes. You obviously still care about the Gyro World since you spend time hanging out with us here on the forum. So why not make your ideas on how center line thrust should be used, available to everyone. Who knows, someone may take your idea and further develop it until it becomes the new dominant Gyro design in the world. Wouldn't that be a Giant feather in your cap? Come on, Share!!!!!
Gyro Doug

Doug,

I wrote a big long email just now, and deleted it. Feathers in a cap don't pay the rent. I am a business man, and things happen when they are ready to happen. I will have more to say later.

[Gyro_Kai]

It's far better to apply the power manically.

Don't you spell that maniacally?

sorry couldn't resist.

Kai.

[DennisFetters]

Don't you spell that maniacally?
sorry couldn't resist.
Kai.

Yea. Stupid spelling checker. I didn't have the feature selected "Do what is correct, not what I select".

I hope you don't go through all my past posts to point out my spelling or selection of words errors. You'll be a busy man.

[GyroDoug]

Doug,

I wrote a big long email just now, and deleted it. Feathers in a cap don't pay the rent. I am a business man, and things happen when they are ready to happen. I will have more to say later.

Dennis,

I appreciate your concerns here and agree with you that doing something nice for the rest of the Gyro World will not do anything to pay your bills.

However, you have often said that you have moved on and have no intention of ever getting back into the designing, building and selling Gyro business. If that is true, then regardless of whether you share your ideas with others or you hoard them to yourself until the day you die, it will not make a bit of difference to you financially, one way or the other. While I understand it takes money to live, you are going to have to do what ever it is you do, to earn a living, just like the rest of us. This really is a separate issue.

This really boils down to: you can share your ideas, that you no longer need or will use, with others and make a difference in the Gyro World. You can make a contributions to the Gyro World out of the goodness of your heart and maybe, be remembered as someone who really changed the world for the better. Or you can choose to have the attitude "if there isn't something in it for me, then I'm not interested" and take your ideas to the grave with you. With that option, the world will never know of all the great ideas you had. They obviously will know some of the things you have done, but will not have a full appreciation of all of your works. The decision is up to you. I hope you choose the route that will make the biggest difference to the most people. Call me old fashioned and altruistic but I think choosing the higher road and doing good to others will always pay off in the long run. Best of luck with your struggles to decide what to do.

Gyro Doug

[DennisFetters]

Dennis,

I appreciate your concerns here and agree with you that doing something nice for the rest of the Gyro World will not do anything to pay your bills.

However, you have often said that you have moved on and have no intention of ever getting back into the designing, building and selling Gyro business. If that is true, then regardless of whether you share your ideas with others or you hoard them to yourself until the day you die, it will not make a bit of difference to you financially, one way or the other. While I understand it takes money to live, you are going to have to do what ever it is you do, to earn a living, just like the rest of us. This really is a separate issue.

This really boils down to: you can share your ideas, that you no longer need or will use, with others and make a difference in the Gyro World. You can make a contributions to the Gyro World out of the goodness of your heart and maybe, be remembered as someone who really changed the world for the better. Or you can choose to have the attitude "if there isn't something in it for me, then I'm not interested" and take your ideas to the grave with you. With that option, the world will never know of all the great ideas you had. They obviously will know some of the things you have done, but will not have a full appreciation of all of your works. The decision is up to you. I hope you choose the route that will make the biggest difference to the most people. Call me old fashioned and altruistic but I think choosing the higher road and doing good to others will always pay off in the long run. Best of luck with your struggles to decide what to do.

Gyro Doug

I guess you should read the private email I sent you, and then maybe respond here.

[GyroDoug]

I guess you should read the private email I sent you, and then maybe respond here.

Dennis,

I'm not sure what's going on or why, but I don't have a personal message on the forum and I haven't seen any e-mail from you. You might try re-sending it. You are welcome to e-mail me directly at my work at "dougb@1800vending.com". I anxiously await to read your thoughts.

Gyro Doug

[DennisFetters]

Dennis,

I appreciate your concerns here and agree with you that doing something nice for the rest of the Gyro World will not do anything to pay your bills.

However, you have often said that you have moved on and have no intention of ever getting back into the designing, building and selling Gyro business. If that is true, then regardless of whether you share your ideas with others or you hoard them to yourself until the day you die, it will not make a bit of difference to you financially, one way or the other. While I understand it takes money to live, you are going to have to do what ever it is you do, to earn a living, just like the rest of us. This really is a separate issue.

This really boils down to: you can share your ideas, that you no longer need or will use, with others and make a difference in the Gyro World. You can make a contributions to the Gyro World out of the goodness of your heart and maybe, be remembered as someone who really changed the world for the better. Or you can choose to have the attitude "if there isn't something in it for me, then I'm not interested" and take your ideas to the grave with you. With that option, the world will never know of all the great ideas you had. They obviously will know some of the things you have done, but will not have a full appreciation of all of your works. The decision is up to you. I hope you choose the route that will make the biggest difference to the most people. Call me old fashioned and altruistic but I think choosing the higher road and doing good to others will always pay off in the long run. Best of luck with your struggles to decide what to do.

Gyro Doug

Doug,

I'm not taking anything to the grave. It will be revealed when the time is right. Timing is everything.

Just because I no longer deal directly with the public does not mean I don't work in gyroplane designing.

Gyroplanes are my first love in aviation. That has not changed, even though I got side tracked in helicopters. But, my helicopter design experience has given me a new outlook, and allows me to bring many capabilities to the designing of new gyroplanes.

[GyroDoug]

Dennis,

I am glad to hear that you still care about Gyros and want to share your ideas with the rest of us in some way. I hope you are able to find a way to bring your ideas to market without having to deal with the public. I will anxiously await any news of further development. Best of luck!!!

Gyro Doug