EJ25 upgrade on SxS

[CLS447]

OK, I finally started looking at the stuff that has drained the bank accounts.

I started by modifying the wooden engine stand & sat the dirty used EJ25 SOHC engine on it.

I then removed the short metric bolts from the end of the crankshaft.

Then I figured out how disassemble the Autoflight gearbox (no instructions included, but simple) for temporary mounting.

1. aluminum adapter bolted on to crank with longer metric bolts(included).
I need a thinner walled socket to torque these bolts. I also need to know the torque values & type of loctite recommended.

2. The ring gear (flywheel?) in place.

3. The rubber thing in place after thin plate. Three large bolts hold this on. I also need the torque specs for these. NEIL ARE YOU LISTENING ?

4. Then the gearbox & mounting plate slips on the two alignment dowls on the bellhousing & is fastened with the included bolts.

One short bolt is included with the starter but I need to know what the top starter hole gets fastened with.

[CLS447]

Here are the pics.......

[CLS447]

I got a prerotator drum from my friend Doug at Air Command. With a little help from the machine shop, she fits nice. 9" drum made to fit the 5/8" drive lugs & the prop flange.

The back plate for the IVO Magnum was bored for 3/4" drive lugs. So I will have the plate drilled & bored between the existing pattern to exactly fit what I have here.

The 6 1/2" bolts that came with the IVO are about an inch too long . I hope that they will take a swap or I will have to buy new ones $$$$$.

I then assembled the prop.....NICE !! I don't believe that I got any instructions with the IVO so I will be calling them about that. I remember Stan talking about their torqueing procedure. ???

[Timchick]

Looking good, Chris.

[CLS447]

That should cover the redrive & prop. That's a start! But there are a ton of other things for me to do.

Some of the small hurdles that I will have to jump.......

Please feel free to offer suggestions . In other words.....HELP !!!!!!!!

1. How to mount this beast.
The EJ25 will need a strong mount. I would like to try & use alot of the stuff that I already have such as the basic bed mount. This engine only has one vertical mounting bolt hole on each side. The other two are at an angle. I think that it will need more than just those 4 bolts!

2. How to run & mount the flex shaft so that it can drive the prerotator. This will be fun! If I can remotely mount the oil filter, it should be a clear shot between the oil pan & the exhaust. That is how I did it with the EA81 but didn't have the oil filter in the way.
This engine appears to have some type of oil cooler under the filter. Is anyone aware of these?

3. I will need an exhaust system. I guess it will be best to wait until everything else is together before I put too much thought into that !

4. Installing & mounting the computer & wiring harness. Don Parham redid the harness & has excellent diagrams included, but the mounting is on me !
Also probably rewiring the whole gyro!

5. Of course the rehang test & subsequent adjustments will also be a blast ! I hope to not have to move my axles for the heavier engine.

6. Air filter assembly ?

7. New plugs & wires.

8. Fuel system. I at least have the pumps.

One thing I do look forward to is throwing that damn protractor in the trash ! One simple twist & the prop pitch is changed. What RPM did you want?

I am sure that I missed a couple million other things but this SxS is my do or die goal in life now. Then I will get an enclosed machine.....MAYBE !

[CLS447]

Thanks Tim! I take joy in believing that I will have enough power,with this engine, to take anyone up....regardless of weight & density altitude.

That EA81 kicks but just not enough. I will probably fly it again in the spring before I do the total tear down. There is plenty to do before I am ready to mount this on. I kinda wished that I had a mule frame for mockup & test runs....hmmm.

[animal]

Looking good Chris! that should fly your baby with no problems at all. looking forward to watching your build progress on this engine upgrade.

[ben]

way to go chris ,

glad to see ya back at it

stan tell him what the delta cams did for your ej25 !! chris, it would be a good time to do it!!

[automan1223]

Chris,

Take your time. Do it right. You have a pocket full of power there. That setup is a bit heavier than your 1.8 but stock should put out a good 50- hp more. I hope your landing gear, airframe is up to it.

I am curious why the 2.5. An efi 2.2 should have plenty of power, but you wont have to worry about it now.

Why wait, get started now.

I guess santa was good this year.

Jonathan

[CLS447]

Well, I'm not screwing around anymore! Everyone that has gone to the 2.5 is overjoyed. Pat Mcnear,Steve Osborn,& all the SH's.

Hopefully I will be able to cruise at 4000 rpm or less. ???

Ben ,changing the cams is the least of my worries right now. That should be easy. I would like to see the difference when I do it.

I will be doing things here that nobody I know of has done.
Drum prerotator with Autoflight gearbox. It's gonna be alot of custom work.

I wished I had Dick Degraw to help me !!!!!!! Maybe even add some jump takeoff !!!!!

[rfi]

Chris,
You will have to move the main gear back around 4 inches if you haven't already done so. I converted Jim DeGaetano's SXS Air Command years ago.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Chris. Good hearing from you. Nice work!!! Your present engine mount looks plenty strong, but you are the best judge of that. Hope you have a super fun cruise. Bon Voyage!!! I look forward to the pics.

[route66]

Chris,
Looks like you have a project on your hands. You asked about the oil cooler at the filter and my conversion had the same. I removed the cooler and replaced it with a Perma-cool sandwich adapter #186 which has fittings to add a remote cooler. The adapter is only 1” and going with a short filter gave me clearance for the engine mounts and exhaust. They have other adapters in case you want to have a remote filter and cooler also. http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page28.html

Looking at your picture, is there enough room between the intake and prop to route your MAF sensor and air filter to a location which is less turbulent. I had to rotate the manifold to have the intake forward to make mine work. Just a thought.

[CLS447]

Thanks alot Brandon ! I hope to not have to flip my intake. Don Parham said that there would be more wire harness work for that.

Ozzy Russ and others down under have done it this way. So I hope that I can get all that info from them.

Like Larry said we are off for a Carribean Cruise so we will be gone for a while.

But that oil cooler info is great & just the kind of help I will need. I will pick your brain & ask for pictures when we get back.

Did you feel the oil cooler needed to stay on the engine? I don't think all 2.5s have them.

[StanFoster]

Chris: That 2.5 with that redrive...and that Ivo....wow....you are going to love it! You and Shar will have a rocket ship....you better put training wheels on it!


Its nice to see you so enthusiastic about it......its fun to watch your progress.


I just read you asking me about the torquing procedure for the Ivo prop. I kept mine at 65 foot pounds.....and checked it every couple of hours...only took half a minute. I seldom had any of the 6 bolts that needed any tightening,..but maybe just a nudge at 10 hours. Oh...the first few hours are real important as the flanges seat in. Just keep checking the torque to 65 foot pounds the first 15 minutes...then every half hour up to 4-5 hours...then just for your own benefit of the doubt...just check it as often as you want...but they recommend every 10 hours. No more fuss than a half a minute...I probably checked mine too much...but better too much than not enough!

Enjoy that cruise.....you two deserve the best>

Stan

[CLS447]

Thanks Stan. IVO forgot to send the instructions but they are on their way now. He also told me about the tape to check for blade movement.

I wanted to get drilled head bolts for safety wire but IVO said no !

Did your 2.5 have the oil cooler under the oil filter or not?

I will post some closeup photos of this.

Oh yeah....3 days in Tampa & then onto the Carnival Legend for SUPER BOWL Sunday. Then Grand Cayman, Cozumel, Belize , & a Honduran Island. I never did a cruise before, should be FUN !!!

[CLS447]

Took some pics of the oil filter assembly & me with my brand new cruise haircut.

[StanFoster]

Chris- I have always loved your posts. You are always upbeat and you are always doing something extra nice! Thanks for adding more smiles than frowns. Kick back and enjoy that warm cruise! Then we all get to keep following your 2.5 project when you get back. Stan

[barnstorm2]

looking good!!

[CLS447]

Hey Thanks guys, I'm looking at the pic of the oil cooler. It looks like it is connected to the thermostat housing.

Boy do I have alot to learn about the 2.5.

Any & all informatiopn about this engine is greatly appreciated !

[rfi]

Some of the EJ22 and EJ25 engines were equipped with this oil cooler. It uses engine coolant to transfer heat from the oil.

I always removed them because my engine mount design didn't provide room for the cooler.

[CLS447]

Don, Thanks for the input. I'm sorry ,but I am yet to remove the harness ,that you did for me, out of the wrapping !

I will be looking at the drawings for your mount in the very near future.

So your mount will accept the oil filter but not the cooler ?

Do you remember which O2 sub harness I need, front or rear ?

I spoke with Subaru parts yesterday, the bolts & other thing that I need are relatively inexpensive. The rear sub harness is $80.

What do you suggest I do for an alternator & mount ?

What do you like for pulleys ?

Thanks

I think that these question & answer sessions are good for everyone.

[rfi]

Hi Chris,
Yes, the filter plus the oil cooler extends too far down so that the filter makes contact with the top of the engine mount.

You need the sub harness for the front O2 sensor. It is the one that helps determine the fuel/air mixture. The rear sensor is only there to determine the condition of the catalytic converter which you don't need.

I have always used a small, 55 Amp Nippondenzo alternator from the Geo Metro. It is more than adequate in power output and only weighs around 5.5 pounds.

If you are talking about pulleys for the alternator, the stock pulley is okay although you can slow down the alternator by putting a larger pulley on it or replacing the five inch diameter crankshaft pulley with a lighter weight and smaller diameter aluminum version. You can get a 4 inch aluminum pulley for the crankshaft from Tech Welding in Paducah, KY (www.techwelding.com).

[automan1223]

The crankshaft pulley does double duty as a harmonic balancer. I would advise against trading it for a shiny smaller racing one.

Harmonic balancer absorbs high frequency vibrations that eat up bearings, cause crankshafts to break, etc. etc.

J

[Brent_Brown]

Chis what gear size do you have in your autoflight box? 2.2 to 1?

[rfi]

Jonathan,
I thought the same thing and discouraged people from replacing it with a light weight pulley until I learned different.
According to a Subaru engineer the crankshaft pulley is not a harmonic balancer for the engine even though it is built like one. He said that the crank pulley is a dampener to reduce shock loads from the air conditioning compressor turning on. He said that the engine is well balanced internally and does not need a harmonic balanceer.

There are several aftermarket companies that sell light weight, smaller diameter pulleys for racing applications where fractional hp increases can mean the difference beteen winning or losing a race.

[automan1223]

Learning way back in my college engine class, every internal combustion engine has a problem with harmonics so as long as the a/f charge goes off and turns a crank. The whole assy will ring like a bell, the crank being the bell part, and the burning of the fuel the rod that rings it. It is possible that the assy is tuned to a freq so high or low that it is not a problem in pass car aplications, but I would like to see some kind of real world test before i replaced an assy that runs at constant high rpms that it would not do damage to the crank, rods, bearings etc.

One of the same reasons why subaru re-engineered the 2.5 crank in the phase II buildups was the se-sawing of the crank in the block beating up the thrust bearing, I am guessing the "springy" ness of the crank in the block played a part there too.

Harmonic balancers are actually a misnomer, they are actually harmonic absorbers.

J

[rv6ejguy]

SAE paper 890471 by the designers of the EJ series engines states that the balancer is necessary to reduce bending and torsional loads on the crankshaft.

Most modern engines have absorbers and you are removing these to fit lightweight pulleys at your own risk. Unfortunately a CNC shop which turns out shiny, lightweight pulleys for racing or looks probably does no analysis or validation with these products like the OEM does.

I can state from experience that on some racing engines operated at high rpm without the absorber in place, crankshaft failure was a quick certainty. While it may be fine for a while at reduced rpms, why play with fire?

[CLS447]

Just thought I would give my thread a bump......not much going on here under Air Command.

Don Parham.....I am going nuts looking for the engine mount plans you sent me. I will find them eventually. I would be glad to pay you for another set.

I am still not sure how I am going to mount the 2.5 yet.

I have to retrieve the machine from the airport & disassemble & store parts.

I will also have to give my 447 it's annual condition inspection, fuel her up & take her out for a rip.....as soon as we get some decent weather.

I got that alternator with the large pulley from Stan, now I need a mount. When I get ahold of Groen Bros. I will determine if their price is reasonable or borrow a friends mount & have it duplicated at the machine shop.

I removed the oil cooler & have ordered some parts for the 2.5 from the soob dealer.

While at the dealer I got an eyeful under the hood of the WRX & the STI. 300hp & 40K for the STI...also a nice red wrinkle coat on the intake manifold.

The WRX sports a smaller intercooler & a plastic manifold, I wonder if that intake would fit my 99 2.5?

Another interesting note....both are still using the DOHC whereas I believe all others use the SOHC !

There's the update !

[rfi]

Chris,
Email me your mailing address and I will send you another set of engine mount drawings.

rfi@oklatel.net.

[CLS447]

Don, thanks again for the drawings.

Progress is slow for me right now, & I have got some questions as far as preparing my 2.5 for mounting.

I will be posting them soon.

[route66]

Chris,
I will look in my extra parts boxes as I think I have an 30 amp alternator bracket for a 2.5. I should be home next week and will look if you still need one. If I remember correct, I had to replace the bracket to upgrade to the 100 amp. Let me know if you still need one.

[CLS447]

Hey Brandon, thanks but Dan from Groen Bros was nice enough to hook me up with the alternator bracket for the alternator that I got from Stan Foster.(35amp).

But I have alot of questions regarding stuff like the heater hose lines on the engine & fuel lines & such.

Pics would be great.

BTW.....how different were the brackets ?

[rfi]

Chris,
The steel heater lines near the bell housing need to be connected together with a "U" shaped hose. If the heater lines are plugged off the engine will overheat.

[CLS447]

Don, thanks. I knew I needed to hook them together but.....I don't want the 2 steel lines pointing to the rear.

I was hoping to buy, instead of make, a steel line that points towards the front of the engine & then run hose from there down to the upper thermostat housing nipple.

Thereby eliminating the black steel line that also has another small branch coming from it.

I want to eliminate all unused ports & lugs.

I was considering using a plastic intake.....do you think it could work out ?

Don I also need to replace the plug with hose connection on the bottom of the left head that fed the oil cooler.......do you have one or know where to get one ?

[CLS447]

AUTOFLIGHT motor mounts are on the way !

I have an alternator mount.

EA81 still on machine, I hate to take it off. Still gathering parts.

[CLS447]

EA81 is off & I am starting to get the 2.5 ready to drop on.

Pictures to follow soon.

[CLS447]

The original setup that I got from Air Command was designed for the EJ series. I just adapted it to work for the EA81.

So after all this goofing around I decided to bolt on the original rails .

This looks like the easiest way for me to go.

The flat straps ,that are rubber mounted, will be remade out of 3/4" thick material, insted of 1/2".

The oil filter will be relocated so that it can fit/ be changed.

The motor will be moved as far forward as possible & if the height needs to be changed, I will do that with the standup spacers. The rails that I used on the EA81 had 3 standup spacers, but this is not possible on the EJ. 3 spacers made the straps very rigid. With only 2 spacers on this heavier engine, the straps are flexing(not good!)

I will be drilling & tapping the redrive lugs so that the rails will bolt to the engine/redrive with 4 bolts(2 on each side). Then the rails will bolt to the isolated straps with 2 spacers & bolts on each side.

The rails will extend out the rear to mount the lower prerotator unit just like the old setup.

Even with the motor in its current location, the weight needed to push the nosewheel down is very little. So I hope to not have to change the axle location which would mean having to relocate the shock tubes.

My main concerns are to have a strong enough mount for the power of this engine, & I am not sure if this mounting will be enough. I may need to add other supports like the RAF/SH use over the top of the engine.

I had the owner of the machine shop come to the garage yesterday so he could see what was going on here & the material has been ordered.

Now with the engine in place I can install the alternator & intake & start looking ahead to see what other things I will need to do.

FUN, FUN, FUN !!!! Look at the size of that new engine !!!!

With the Delta cams, DO YOU THINK THIS WILL BE ENOUGH POWER ?

[animal]

Looking good Chris.that puppy should get ya in the air with power to spare.

keep us posted.

[CLS447]

Hey Tim, thanks & I will keep you all posted.

Things should get going now!

Don Parham...............you know what after reviewing my collection of photos, I noticed that others with similar machines had their axles mounted on the rear of the bottom cluster plates with the shock tubes connected to the mast.

Mine have always been about 4" behind that point...............so you could say my axles are already moved !

It is really interesting to see the different configurations of the "same" machine.

Let me see if I can attach some..............

[CLS447]

OK... this is where I am at with the engine install...

I am going to try to use the radiator that I have already installed for the old engine.
So to give me a little more room for the hose connections & other reasons I have moved the upper shock tube mounting points outward. This has increased the amount of "rock" . I may shorten the tubes to level the axles.

I have stripped everything off of the intake so I can get it powder coated.

I will also be coating the waterway. I also extracted the tube from the end of the waterway & I will thread it to accept a threaded fitting to eliminate those ugly steel heater hose lines protruding from the rear of the motor, that have to get looped together.

I believe I have found the air induction fitting & filter that I will be ordering. Basically it will be a K&N filter attached to the MAFS(mass air flow sensor)with an aluminum 90 attached to the throttle body.

Got a new tire for the scooter & front one is on the way(Michelin Boppers)

[barnstorm2]

Lookin good!

Make sure you have a good way to tap out any air in the coolant. EJ's are very picky about no air.

.

[StanFoster]

Chris: Another thing. Make sure your radiator cap seals correctly. I went through over a year of water burping out.....trying all kinds of fixes....

when after these fixes...it started doing it again....all finally traced down to my radiator cap. I had tried several caps during that year of trouble...and it wasnt until I was spouting out water in the overflow once again...that I was just disamayed about the whole system. Something just clicked in my head to check the seating depth of that radiator cap. I measured it out of the filler neck...measured the depth of the filler neck and said.."hmmmm". I went down to NAPA and picked up another cap ..same number...same dimensions. The extended spring length on that cap J-U-S-T equalled the measured depth of the overflow. The NAPA guy let me just research various caps...and I found one that had another 1/8 inch seating depth to it. The spring would actually be exerting some sealing pressure. Long story shortened....end of problems.

I had received all kinds of excellent advice here...but in the end...none worked for me. I bet to this day had I discovered that improper cap...filler neck combo from my initial startup...I would have never had all those incidences of spouting out water....my Stanley Steamer thread....and all.

Live and learn!

Stan

[CLS447]

UPDATE.................

Well I got some real nice intake components at Pep Boys. Spectre makes some air induction tubes & couplings. I will be using the stock MAFS with cone style air filter & chrome 3" air tubes with red couplings. Looks like it will work out nice!

The intake barely fit in my blasting cabinet & did not fit in my oven, so I took it out to have it done(powder coated)

The mounting rails are back at the machine shop for some drilling & tapping.

Then once the holes are located, I can have the redrive lugs drilled & tapped. Then the motor is just about fully mounted. Then things can get moving.

My wiring harness is missing the O2 sensor sub harness & I will have to order that from the Subaru dealer. I also need an O2 sensor.

I called Tech welding & he says that since the Terry Eiland crash he no longer makes exhausts! (what does that have to do with anything ?) So I don't know what to do about an exhaust system.

My oil filter relocation kit looks like it will work out great!

Since my intake is not flipped around(stock) The stock throttle linkage & brackets will work for me. I just need to find a good cable with proper barrel end .

I will be connecting to the same radiator. I hope it is big enough!

Then I can figure out the prerotator mounting & mount the IVO magnum.

Then I can see what I will have to do with the upper tail boom to clear the 70" prop.

I will need a new tach & I can remove my carb temp gauge. Then I can start the tedious task of the computer wiring & install the new fuel pumps & plumbing.

What other SxS open frame gyros are available ?

[route66]

Looking good Chris! You might try here for an exhaust. http://www.aircraftexhaust.net/oem_lsa.html

[CLS447]

Thanks Brandon! What exhaust are you using ?

I really wanted something like the RAF system but I think I will call them about that 4into1 collector they have pictured for the Subaru.

I will check them out..............has anyone dealt with these people ?

[Friendly]

Chris
In post 38, the last picture.
What size prerotor drum is that. It appear to be 10 inches.

Also the rubber friction wheel appears wider than the ones I have seen on most gyros.
What size rotors were you spinning with that set up and what RPM did you achieve?

thanks
I enjoy you builds, I hope this engine gives you the performance you have been looking for.

[rfi]

Chris,
Ed Klepeis (techwelding.com) makes a fine exhaust system similiar to the RAF exhaust. Check out their website or call Ed. He can fix you up with a quality stainless steel exhaust system.

[CLS447]

Mark, that is a 9" drum from Air Command's high torque prerotator. That is pictured on my EA81.

Air Command also sold me another one that fits the hub on my Autoflight gearbox on my EJ25.

The Darnell rubber wheel was too sticky for that setup & I needed a little"slip" so I took the original wheel from from my 447 AC. It has the name Kryptonics on it.

It is perfect for getting my 28' blades going.

I have had 200rpms out of this system easily.

Don, as I had posted here earlier, Ed told me he no longer makes exhausts .

[CLS447]

I have got to get back to business with this gyro !

My intake & waterway are powdercoated. The redrive has been drilled & tapped.

It is time to assemble the engine to it's mounts & figure out it's final resting place(fore & aft ) Then the straps must be match drilled for bolting her down.

I needed a sub harness for my wiring harness & Subaru dealer said I had to buy the whole harness. Don Parham said that he had purchased several of these from them before.

So Don had an extra complete modified harness with O2 sensors that I needed anyway. So I bought the whole thing from him at the price of only what a modification would cost. BARGAIN !

[Brent_Brown]

what is up with your 2.5 Chris. I am still getting parts together for my 2.2.

[gab76]

Hi Chris,

I flew a s x s in MN the other day. The other pilot and I had to hold hard left stick to maintain level flt. Air Command and I are sending up an "L" bracket to attach to the left side of the rotorhead. There will be a spring down to a electric trim motor so you can trim for this and different passenger weights or solo.

I am finding that with the big engines, you can't trim the neutral stick force with just push tube adjustments. You have to add the spring on the left side to help with the left stick pressure. Also you will have to beef up the fwd and aft trim springs. AC and I are putting on 2 springs to help with that.

[CLS447]

Brent , project is moving forward, thanks for asking. I'll post some pics when I get the camera unloaded.

Greg...... Thanks for the info.

What engine was on it ?

Any pictures ?

When mine was flying with the EA81 & just me in the left seat , I had to hold a bit of right stick.

But the pitch spring(set loosely) was no problem at all. That was with 28' SC blades & 28" DW blades.

With 100+ lbs of ballast in the passenger seat, there were no roll trim problems.

Are you saying that with the 2.5 , things are gonna change ?

[GyroRon]

You will probably have to fly it from the right seat Chris.

[gab76]

You will want to fly it from the left seat solo with balast in the right seat.

I am still looking for pics I took and emailed to either Doug or a student in MN. I will get back to you

[CLS447]

Here is the 2.5 sitting on it's new mounts.

Also the new pulley from Tech Welding. Sweeeeeeeeeet !

[automan1223]

Chris,

I know we have gone over this before, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED, and
NOW I will WARN you (and all other engine modifiers again.

Those under drive pulleys have NO Harmonic Dampening

You run the risk of ringing the crank like a bell. Cracking the crank, prematurely wearing the bearings etc, etc, etc. There is a reason why they put a big ugly pulley assy on the front of that rotating assembly.

Besides, the pulley you have on the alternator looks to be a good ratio
and will not over speed.

Shiny stuff will not make your gyro run any better.....

Looks like you are on your way.... when do you think you will be ready to fire it up ?

Jonathan

[CLS447]

Jonathan, I hope to have both gyros running by spring, & then I will need my BFR.

I understand what you are saying about the pulley. From what I have been told , the Sub engine needs no HB & the weight & mass of the original pulley with the rubber built in , is to act as a shock absorber when the AC compressor kicks in. & out & in & out.

I really only wanted a single 4 groove pulley but the one shown on his website was never available so I may have this one cut down for more pulley to mast clearance. Which pulley grooves will you be using?

I wanted to keep the motor as far forward as possible & I had to make the call. The smaller diameter will give me some extra space & if I cut off the useless front grooves , I will have even more.

Does the stuff bolted on the other end account for anything ?

My Dad learned a saying & he says it to me all the time...."chrome won't get you home" but everytime I take my HD out , I prove him wrong !

[StanFoster]

Chris: Your Air Command is looking sweet with that 2.5. Pat Mcnear has probably as many hours on a 2.5 than anyone....and he was always putting a bug in my ear about changing my pulley over to the lighter one he had. I would call him and he will tell you it will be fine. I just never got around to switching mine out.


Stan

[CLS447]

Thank You Stan !

Sorry about what happened to Jenny, I was horrified as I read your first post.

[CLS447]

Well, if that wasn't the nicest call I've had in a while !

Neil Hintz, the maker of the famous Autoflight gearbox, just called from New Zealand just to see how things were going for me.

Always an interesting man to speak with! Now I have got to get to the garage & get going on this machine !

[barnstorm2]

Well, if that wasn't the nicest call I've had in a while !

Neil Hintz, the maker of the famous Autoflight gearbox, just called from New Zealand just to see how things were going for me.

Always an interesting man to speak with! Now I have got to get to the garage & get going on this machine !

That is one really great thing about this sport. All of the vendors that I know of are also participants and fans of the sport.

:whip: Out to the workshop Chris!!!

.

[CLS447]

The SxS is back under the chain hoist for engine removal ! There are a couple of mods that need to be done to the motor mount rails.

Then when they are complete I hope that this is the last time this Beast of an engine will have to come off.

The one mental block & one that always freaks people out is when I show them that wiring harness. "where is that going to go?"

I just say ..."I did not figure that out yet ! "

Don Parham....are you watching ? If so....do you mind if I unbundle all that work you did or do you want me to work it out like that ?

Obviously, some wire can be extended & some have plugs on already. So this limits the location of the computer.

More to follow......

[raton]

I know we have gone over this before, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED, and
NOW I will WARN you (and all other engine modifiers again.

Those under drive pulleys have NO Harmonic Dampening

You run the risk of ringing the crank like a bell. Cracking the crank, prematurely wearing the bearings etc, etc, etc. There is a reason why they put a big ugly pulley assy on the front of that rotating assembly.

No harmonic balancer..? One can lead the horse to the water but you can’t make him to drink it, one has to read the mortality rate amongst gyro guys and all come to simple explanation.. Ignorance fuelled by his even more ignorant peers.

raton

[CLS447]

OK, I won't use it .

[rfi]

Chris,
I don't recommend that you un-bundle the harness and shorten it.
That just makes for more points of failure by splicing wires. A good place for the ECU is underneath the seat. I have a lot of gyro customers who are using the stock length harnesses.
According to a Subaru engineer the crankshaft accessory pulley is not a harmonic balancer but is used to dampen the shock of the air conditioning compressor turning on.
He said that the horizontally opposed Subaru Boxer engines are naturally balanced and do not need a harmonic balancer.
There are alot of aftermarket, lightweight crankshaft pulleys offered by racing product companies.

[StanFoster]

Chris- I would put a whole lot more weight on what Don Parham says! I have never met the man, but have the utmost respect for him. I have just heard way too many good reports and see how he is very knowledgeable about the Subarus.


My Subarus in both my gyros were fantastic engines.

Stan

[raton]

OK, I won't use it .

Wait, use the OM pulley cut it in half and machine another grove if you are using the OM Alternator. We cheeked the resonance at certain frequencies with a minimal net loss ( the mass bulk is towards the crankshaft) at diverse range RPM.

raton

[raton]

Chris,
I don't recommend that you un-bundle the harness and shorten it.
That just makes for more points of failure by splicing wires. A good place for the ECU is underneath the seat. I have a lot of gyro customers who are using the stock length harnesses.
According to a Subaru engineer the crankshaft accessory pulley is not a harmonic balancer but is used to dampen the shock of the air conditioning compressor turning on.
He said that the horizontally opposed Subaru Boxer engines are naturally balanced and do not need a harmonic balancer.
There are alot of aftermarket, lightweight crankshaft pulleys offered by racing product companies.

According to a Subaru engineer the crankshaft accessory pulley is not a harmonic balancer but is used to dampen the shock of the air conditioning compressor turning on.He said that the horizontally opposed Subaru Boxer engines are naturally balanced and do not need a harmonic balancer.
There are alot of aftermarket, lightweight crankshaft pulleys offered by racing product companies.

Was that Subaru engineer chewing coca leafs while making that statement ..? Even aircraft engines have a harmonic balancer albeit not as a pulley but by offsetting timing. Recommending OM ECU for ircfart applications is dead wrong too..!

raton

[automan1223]

Balancer is a misnomer it does not balance the engine per say. Certain engines did use an external balancer or weighted assembly on the front and used a specially offset / weighted flexplate or flywheel. Ford and GM are famous for switching back and forth with designs. If you have ever seen a weekend warrior put the wrong flywheel or harmonic balancer on the engine you will quickly find a new definition for vibration........as the engine will flail about so badly it can break from the mounts.


Terms you may recognize are:

Externally balanced and

Internally balanced.

Internally balanced engines DO NOT use EXTERNAL weighted assemblies to help balance the rotating assembly. eg: crankshaft, rods and pistons.



A true harmonic balancer absorbs the "harmonic" created when the combustion cycle kicks off. It has nothing to do with balance. Think of a large bell being run during church time. That bell rings or resonates. If you could try and bite a piece out of the bell you would find your teeth shattered in a matter of seconds. WHY ? Consider that hard internal parts only have small operating clearances and a thin film of oil. consider the following. Engine builders found that broken crankshafts, worn bearings and damaged internal parts were the result of harmonics run wild.

Harmonic balancers are TUNED for the engine they are meant to run on. If you search a speed catalog you can find them by the dozens. They are not just for gaining hp. They are required to keep the engine from turning into a grenade ! Harmonics do peak and fall depending on the operating rpm of the engine. But all engines do have a critical and average rpm for the harmonic. It is possible to never operate in the critical rpm but you would again have to have that technical information. If you were running a belt drive you may be able to get away with it more than in a gear drive prsu.

Knowing what rpm and amplitude of harmonic is going on inside an engine requires very expensive equipment not found but in engine labs. Change it out at your own risk. Join the ranks of weekend warriors, kiddy magazine reader know it all morons that think a bottle of NOS is all you need to have a fast car.

Jonathan

[earthbnd misfit]

I agree with you, it's not a balancer. If this was so, you would have to balance the entire engine, everytime you replaced the front pulley. Same as, saying shock absorbers. They don't absorb shock, the springs do, They are spring dampeners. To stop spring oscilations.
So, another quiestion, the flywheel absorbs a lot of the firing pulses, if it was a manual flywheel, and the weight of the torque converter does the same. But if you use just the drive plate, through a gearbox to the prop, will this stress out the prop flange?

[raton]

Balancer is a misnomer it does not balance the engine per say. Certain engines did use an external balancer or weighted assembly on the front and used a specially offset / weighted flexplate or flywheel. Ford and GM are famous for switching back and forth with designs. If you have ever seen a weekend warrior put the wrong flywheel or harmonic balancer on the engine you will quickly find a new definition for vibration........as the engine will flail about so badly it can break from the mounts.


Terms you may recognize are:

Externally balanced and

Internally balanced.

Internally balanced engines DO NOT use EXTERNAL weighted assemblies to help balance the rotating assembly. eg: crankshaft, rods and pistons.



A true harmonic balancer absorbs the "harmonic" created when the combustion cycle kicks off. It has nothing to do with balance. Think of a large bell being run during church time. That bell rings or resonates. If you could try and bite a piece out of the bell you would find your teeth shattered in a matter of seconds. WHY ? Consider that hard internal parts only have small operating clearances and a thin film of oil. consider the following. Engine builders found that broken crankshafts, worn bearings and damaged internal parts were the result of harmonics run wild.

Harmonic balancers are TUNED for the engine they are meant to run on. If you search a speed catalog you can find them by the dozens. They are not just for gaining hp. They are required to keep the engine from turning into a grenade ! Harmonics do peak and fall depending on the operating rpm of the engine. But all engines do have a critical and average rpm for the harmonic. It is possible to never operate in the critical rpm but you would again have to have that technical information. If you were running a belt drive you may be able to get away with it more than in a gear drive prsu.

Knowing what rpm and amplitude of harmonic is going on inside an engine requires very expensive equipment not found but in engine labs. Change it out at your own risk. Join the ranks of weekend warriors, kiddy magazine reader know it all morons that think a bottle of NOS is all you need to have a fast car.

Jonathan

Harmonic =Physics. of, pertaining to, or noting a series of oscillations in which each oscillation has a frequency that is an integral multiple of the same basic frequency= Crank pulley damper, crankshaft damper, torsional damper, vibration damper also called harmonic balancer is a devise on the crankshaft to reduce torsional vibrations......

raton

[raton]

.............

[CLS447]

I took some pics of the new location for the upper mount for the shock tubes.

I will explain later . What do you think ?

The further out I moved them, the better the angle on the shocks. Also lowered the wheel giving me more "rock".

The wheels have a little to much camber...will have to shorten the tubes a little.

I will be shortening the angle. It is 1/4" material.

[StanFoster]

Chris- Your SXS is looking good. Cant wait to see pictures of it flying. You will like that engine.


Stan

[CLS447]

I had to pull the motor so I did get her off the ground today!

I weighed the motor also.

It has the alternator & redrive but the guts are not in the redrive yet.

No exhaust yet either.

[StanFoster]

Chris- Have you got plans for a Delta cam grind down the road?


Stan

[CLS447]

Well Stan, First I want to see if my pile of junkyard "rubbish" actually runs & checks out OK. Then I will remove the covers & cams. I will have the cams ground & powdercoat the covers ( red of course ).

If the engine is junk, then I will call CCR & order a "new" short block & swap it out.

[CLS447]

Here is a pic after the motor was removed (by myself).

Now is a good time for me to make sure I am happy with the motor mounts & replace those big fender washers with the SS snubbing washers that I bought from Dennis F.

I had considered a third middle Barry mount, I don't know? When you see the way the motor was mounted on the RAF & SH, I think this is plenty strong, But I want some kind of brace system like the RAF & SH had but not over the top of the motor.

Automan has not let me in on his secret system yet.

I took the rails to the machine shop to have the other rear section cut down to 1 1/2" wide & have 2 holes drilled & tapped for 2 3/16" bolts.

Then I will join the 2 "tails" together with a 3/16" aluminum strap & 4 bolts , under the gearbox.

This will link them together to stop any flexing when the prerotator is engaged.

This "strap" will also give me a point to attach the end of my teleflex cable for the prerotator.

Also a good time to finish up the shock tube mounts.

[OzyRuss]

Query............why change the cams on the ej25, they got plenty of grunt stock..as is:confused:

[CLS447]

Russ , I want POWER ! I will probably fly it with stock cams first then decide.

How is your project coming ? Pictures please !!!!!!!

[CLS447]

Since I am hoping that this is the last time the 2.5 will be removed......I will start trimming up the motor.

I gotta get a themostat.....any preferences ? Maybe a FAIL-SAFE or Subaru ?

I need to install my oil filter adapter. I thought about pulling the oil pan,...but why ?

I will call the guy that sold me the pulley & get the names of others that are using one.
I would like to hear some more opinions. Then I can install the pulley.

Torque down the intake with the new gaskets etc , etc....

Don P. remember....I did not flip the intake , so I am not sure how far the wires will reach. I did not want to cut anything , I was just going to untape the bundle to see if everything reaches the sensors.

I'll take some pics today.

BTW.......I still need an exhaust. Check these out ...Thanks for the link Brandon.

http://www.aircraftexhaust.net/index.html

[earthbnd misfit]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to pull of the sump. It's easy and cheap insurance for the time being. You can check some of the slop in the bearings, iron filings in the bottom of the pan, the bores, and piston slop, broken piston skirts etc. Maybe take of a bearing cap. Check the oil screen for blockage.
Enough reasons?

[CLS447]

OK , alright .....It's a good time for that.

It doesn't look like it leaked but it might when I reinstall (Murphy's Law )

If it ain't broke don't fix it !

I probably will have a look-see in there....Thanks

What do you guys think of the shock tube mounts ? They were under the bed mount before. The tube bolt was trapped.
By moving them out, I can access the bolts, get a better angle for the shocks & I increased the functional length of the tubes.

I will probably have to shorten the tubes a bit.

They are under that 1/4" angle that I will bolt up a little better than they are now.

Before I cut off the extra length , I will see if I can use it to mount some things.

[earthbnd misfit]

Make sure you use a new gasket and sealer. Don't use silicon if you are using a oxygen sencor. Loctite goop is good stuff. Also flatten the bolt holes in the sump, where they are bowed out.

[OzyRuss]

Pics coming..........the "build" is done, now stripped down and everything at the painters / powder coaters etc etc.

Yea......it's been a long "build", but the wait will be worth it.
( painted a red color.........coz red goes faster:) )

Real keen to useing me Ivo inflite adjust prop with the HP of the Ej

cheers..........

[OzyRuss]

Russ , I want POWER ! I will probably fly it with stock cams first then decide.

How is your project coming ? Pictures please !!!!!!!

POWER................requires MORE FUEL........more weight, more everything, does it not.

Then we toss in "reliability"........longevity etc etc.:yo:

[Passin' Thru]

POWER................requires MORE FUEL........more weight, more everything, does it not.

Then we toss in "reliability"........longevity etc etc.:yo:

Some folks are of the opinion that if some is good, then more must be better, and the most is best! Therefore too much is never enough!:wacko::eek::twitch::noidea::peace:

[CLS447]

It's just a simple cam grind !!!! By changing the cam , carb , exhaust & heads on my Harley....I got the fuel mileage down about 50%.....I love it !

Russ, refresh YOUR thread, I can't wait to see what you have done.

My brother with a 2.5 & Autoflite gearbox !

[StanFoster]

Chris- Its going to be nice...... Keep up the good work. You are all right..I dont care what rat thinks!

Stan

[OzyRuss]

You yanks can't help stop yourselves from raising the grunt out of your engines.
bet you've even got ya lawn mowers running on racing fuels or sumin. Even your whipper snippers:):)

Saw a youtube thingo recently [ sent to me ] of one of your country men bolting a bleedin great V8 engine onto a chainsaw....growled through a bleedin great log in about 2.5 seconds...........unreal.

You guys got way to much time on your hands..........:peace:

[CLS447]

Well , even with the rain, I plan to work on my machines this weekend.

I got the motor mount rails & strap back from the machine shop last night.

My Spuce order came already! I have lots to do but mostly will be finishing up the single place.

I will post pics of the rails.

[CLS447]

Rails with new backstrap installed. This doubled the strength against the rail end flexing when the prerotator is applied.

I also dropped the motor back on. It's easier to move around !

I drove home in the worst hail storm I have ever seen !

No problem, I was in my Subaru !

I have a remote oil filter adapter & I have to figure out a way to have it get tight with the in & out fittings pointing in the right direction.(away from the motor)

Any Ideas ? It has an O-ring seal. It has 2 choices ....out the bottom (which I can't use ) or out the side. But I need them to point out.

I could try to get another 1/2 a turn but I don't think it will make it .

I'll take some pics.

[earthbnd misfit]

I was just thinking. Is there something you can clamp around an oil filter like a heatsink, to help cool down the oil?

[CLS447]

Check Jegs !

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/category_10001_10002_10629_-1_10445

[groundhog]

If I understand correctly,you need a quarter turn.Would a verry thin washer of thickness equal to 1/4 the thread pitch of the filter work ? would it interfere with the o-ring ?

[CLS447]

I took a look & some pics today...It may not be so bad after all. Thanks for the suggestion, I will get back to this soon.

[raton]

Rails with new backstrap installed. This doubled the strength against the rail end flexing when the prerotator is applied.

I also dropped the motor back on. It's easier to move around !

I drove home in the worst hail storm I have ever seen !

No problem, I was in my Subaru !

I have a remote oil filter adapter & I have to figure out a way to have it get tight with the in & out fittings pointing in the right direction.(away from the motor)

Any Ideas ? It has an O-ring seal. It has 2 choices ....out the bottom (which I can't use ) or out the side. But I need them to point out.

I could try to get another 1/2 a turn but I don't think it will make it .

I'll take some pics.


Depending on the engine mount sometimes one has to move the oil filter away and this is a good idea as you can add an oil cooler at the same time. If you add an oil cooler best is the get a turbo water pump (moving the same amount of water but a further distance) has a bigger impeller and an extra outlet for the oil cooler. If you are interested in more details let me know, in the mean time posted some doctored pictures to get you some idea.

raton

Ps: if you are using a remote air oil cooler would be very advisable to change your pump oil gears from 10m/m to 12m/m

[CLS447]

Raton, I like the adapter that you have pictured on the motor......point the outlets the way you want them & then tighten the bolt.(who's is it?) Crap.....I think I found it ! $$$$$ http://www.jegs.com/p/Moroso/1160111/10002/-1

The one that I am using spins on.....& hope they point the right direction. I will have to figure a way to index it. http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS/1032933/10002/-1

It came with hose barb fittings & rubber hose. I am not opposed to spending some money on better fittings & hose but I am not sure which to get....there are alot of choices.

I got a Fram filter for starters & a K&N filter for later....they're huge ! I'd like to adapt the stock filter in a remote location.

BTW.....I like how CLEAN that engine is !

I got rid of the oil/water cooler that came with the engine(like the one you have pictured)

[raton]

Raton, I like the adapter that you have pictured on the motor......point the outlets the way you want them & then tighten the bolt.(who's is it?) Crap.....I think I found it ! $$$$$ http://www.jegs.com/p/Moroso/1160111/10002/-1

The one that I am using spins on.....& hope they point the right direction. I will have to figure a way to index it. http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS/1032933/10002/-1

It came with hose barb fittings & rubber hose. I am not opposed to spending some money on better fittings & hose but I am not sure which to get....there are alot of choices.

I got a Fram filter for starters & a K&N filter for later....they're huge ! I'd like to adapt the stock filter in a remote location.

BTW.....I like how CLEAN that engine is !

I got rid of the oil/water cooler that came with the engine(like the one you have pictured)


The filter adapter is a copy of the Moroso made in China made from billet aluminum, while the Jegs is only cast aluminum, not very nice finished , the Moroso cost AU$ 160.00 the Chinese is only AU$25.00, the oil hoses with take up 3000 PSI dint see any point going SS braided, let alone the cost. The adapter on the filter site is available on the US market and will take your oil cooler and the filter too, the one depicted is a copy made from billet aluminum too and made in China . The oil cooler is the same one you have in your existing engine, made all in SS very effective to lower your oil temperature on the engine and reduction box. I don’t know about the Fram filters, do they have a oil retention valve..? Some of the aftermarket filters don’t have it and takes some time to build up the oil pleasure, personally prefer the OM filter comparing with some of the exotics available. The new looks on the engine is due to being acid cleaned before one starts with the conversion, this let you inspect the crankcase for possible carks, clean the water jackets and replace all the internals.

raton

[CLS447]

Where do I find the chinese copy ?

Why do you remove the pictures ?

[earthbnd misfit]

If you have oil pressure through those hose, it would be safer to have worm clamps. Are those hoses braided?

[CLS447]

Which hose are you refering to ?

I would like to get some aircraft hose & fittings for the job. Spruce has many to choose from.
I had a hard time finding a good example from their website, but if you look in their catalog you will see what I mean.

I am thinking like something from the Aeroquip line.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/aeroquip8791.php

So many hose types & fittings !

[earthbnd misfit]

The oil hoses that go to the oil cooler. I can't remember the hoses that rat showed, i can't get the pictures back again. Rat mentioned 3000 psi hose, which is braided, really stiff, and used for hydraulics only, and uses compression fittings. A bit drastic for oil hose. Its never going to get above 100 psi. I know of the traditional oil cooler. But i was thinking something simpler, then running hoses etc, by clamping a heat sink around the oil filter. Using a heat exchanger is simple too, running water through the base of the filter.

[raton]

Where do I find the chinese copy ?

Why do you remove the pictures ?


The Chinese copy of the remote oil filter and the oil filter base is sold to US suppliers and they bang up the price, you can contact them directly via email (see your private box) as he can’t sell it wholesale, send the equivalent to 180RMB in USD (26.33 USD) you get the adapter and the filter holder and all the fittings, wrap around clamps and 1mt of 300 PSI hose. If more hose needed you can source form any hydraulic shop in your neck of the woods. Besides, they are all made in China... It takes two weeks delivery.

Like mentioned before the oil hose will take up to 300 PSI and is very malleable, (see pic) I dint see any reasons to expend for aero fittings and braided hoses, they are very expensive and won’t make any difference as there is less than 100PSI going through the hoses. Use the wrap around claps and a drop of Locktite on the bolts.

Trying to correct some spelling mistakes took of the pics by mistake. Back on now

raton

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8717/oil1h.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4286/oil2.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5940/ej2510.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4792/ej259.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8894/oilpipe.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5506/oilpipe2.jpg

[CLS447]

I got back to work on the SxS yesterday ! Mounting fuel pumps & removed engine for trim up.

[LARRYEBOYER]

I wondered where you got to. The 503 is neglected. Do you want me to pet it once in a while for you?

[CLS447]

Things are coming together & I am starting to get the bug again. Building is fun !

I will post some pics soon.