Another Air Commander Video with Winter flying by Dennis Fetters

[DennisFetters]

Here is some footage taken when someone was making a gyro documentary, and wanted some hands-off shots.

Beware, not trying to confuse the issue with the facts that you are about to see with your very own eyes, but for those die-hard brainwashed types that think a classic Commander will nose over and kill you for no good reason, please don't watch this video!!! You have been warned!!

This was taken in the dead of winter (but that never stopped me from flying every day) and next to a large hill, like on this very windy day, would cause turbulences making it difficult for any other type aircraft to fly. As you can see with the hands-off takeoffs and sharp downwind turns and then back into the wind, and nose down attitudes close to the ground, and 180 turn-a-bouts, the Commander flies solid as a..... well, rock is nothing how it flies, as you can see.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGF86Rlqqz4


.

[gyroplanes]

This is a kinder and gentler forum. Stop picking fights and behave yourself :-)

[scott heger]

Dennis,that was some nice flying on a windy day. You still at the airport much?

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

[birdy]

That even 'looked' cold.

BTW, that was a quick grab at the 4;50 mark. ;)

[Heron]

I did!
thanks
Heron

[gyro]

Dennis, not to undermine what the gyro cummunity has done today...you know with CLT and large HS. I just want to let you know that I had a 582 powered HTL AC back when I was 22 and flew it for 5 years. I took some training and was off in the hill country flying. I never once experieced the nose over conditions or PIO or any kind of instablity at all with my AC. And I'm the type of guy that wont climb a shaky ladder or unstable scaffolding I can't stand unsecure heights period.

It's a shame that a lot of folks have died in gyrocopters but some of them had no buisness up there to begin with. (lack of or incomplete traning)

Anyway thought I would share that... and by the way nice video :~) Not as sweet as your promovideo. I loved the 90* bank you pulled on that one!

Where is that vido anyway?

[animal]

Great Video Dennis, cool to see some of your old footage. needless to say I saved this one to my favorite also.

[DennisFetters]

That even 'looked' cold.

BTW, that was a quick grab at the 4;50 mark. ;)

David, I'll invite you to take another look. I had crossed my arms, not grabbed the stick.

[Rehan K.Janjua]

Hello Mr. Dennis Fetters.

Thank You for sharing this lovely Video and flying.

Throughly enjoyed it and a great visit down memory lane.
Those were certainly good days.

Can we see some of the other videos too.

With my very Best Wishes.
Rehan

[RotoPlane]

Now that was some good flying…..but it scared the heck out of me several times when it looked like you were entering negative g’s. I’ve flown a FW in the San Gabriel Mountains where the wings were creaking and my legs were stretching around the seatbelt….being in a gyro in those conditions…..ugghhh….I like my bones placed just where they are. You have guts!

[DennisFetters]

Now that was some good flying…..but it scared the heck out of me several times when it looked like you were entering negative g’s. I’ve flown a FW in the San Gabriel Mountains where the wings were creaking and my legs were stretching around the seatbelt….being in a gyro in those conditions…..ugghhh….I like my bones placed just where they are. You have guts!

Well, Ed, that's the great thing about gyroplanes. They can fly in those conditions without problems. I've flown through mountain passes in Italy where I was bounced up and down 100 feet, and never once in my life have I ever experienced even the slightest tendency for a nose-over during a down or up gust..... Ever! I've flown through it all, including rolling thunder storm fronts.

If you have too large of a horizontal stabilizer that is larger than your bottom frontal area ahead of the CG, then a updraft can make your nose go down, but the Commanders horizontal was designed to equal the bottom frontal area.

By the way, not once in the footage shown did I go negative.

Thanks for looking. More to come.

[Passin' Thru]

David, I'll invite you to take another look. I had crossed my arms, not grabbed the stick.

Well, I thought you grabbed your chest because you danged near had a heart attack!:eek: :lol: :lol:

[RotoPlane]

[QUOTE=DennisFetters;211783]Well, Ed, that's the great thing about gyroplanes. They can fly in those conditions without problems. I've flown through mountain passes in Italy where I was bounced up and down 100 feet, and never once in my life have I ever experienced even the slightest tendency for a nose-over during a down or up gust..... Ever! I've flown through it all, including rolling thunder storm fronts.
QUOTE]

Really....well that does help my outlook on gyro's and negative g's. Thank you.

[DennisFetters]

[QUOTE=DennisFetters;211783]Well, Ed, that's the great thing about gyroplanes. They can fly in those conditions without problems. I've flown through mountain passes in Italy where I was bounced up and down 100 feet, and never once in my life have I ever experienced even the slightest tendency for a nose-over during a down or up gust..... Ever! I've flown through it all, including rolling thunder storm fronts.
QUOTE]

Really....well that does help my outlook on gyro's and negative g's. Thank you.

Ed, don't let me take away the dangers of negative g's in a gyro. They will kill you. What I'm saying is that a trained gyro pilot (as anyone has to be to fly any gyro) will not encounter negative g's unless he controls the gyro to do so, like abruptly pushing forward on the stick and holding it there for any time. Or a PIO or PPO, but those are done by untrained pilots. Like a 747, it will come apart doing negative g's. A fully trained gyro pilot can fly in almost any weather condition and not even get close to having a problem.

I have done negative g's many times in a gyro, but I know how and when to recover. Stay away from them in any gyro.

[birdy]

What I'm saying is that a trained gyro pilot (as anyone has to be to fly any gyro) will not encounter negative g's unless he controls the gyro to do so, like abruptly pushing forward on the stick and holding it there for any time.
Im not wantn to start anatha pissn match DF, but iv go'n neg G plenty of times, in both machines, and i never did a thing.
On each occasion it was caused by extreamly crappy air, and i flew into air that was decending faster than the gyro would free fall, so i was neg.
I didnt make it do it, and no humans reactions could determin wen your go'n to hit one, and you cant react fast enuff to avoid the negs.

IOW, anyone can experiance it, and training has nuthn to do with it.
Neither dose machine configuration.
Its the virtical airflow speed and nuthn else.

[DennisFetters]

What I'm saying is that a trained gyro pilot (as anyone has to be to fly any gyro) will not encounter negative g's unless he controls the gyro to do so, like abruptly pushing forward on the stick and holding it there for any time.
Im not wantn to start anatha pissn match DF, but iv go'n neg G plenty of times, in both machines, and i never did a thing.
On each occasion it was caused by extreamly crappy air, and i flew into air that was decending faster than the gyro would free fall, so i was neg.
I didnt make it do it, and no humans reactions could determin wen your go'n to hit one, and you cant react fast enuff to avoid the negs.

IOW, anyone can experiance it, and training has nuthn to do with it.
Neither dose machine configuration.
Its the virtical airflow speed and nuthn else.

In that case, whatever gyro you are flying, you better stop flying, or figure out what you are doing wrong. I've hit downdrafts that reduced my g load, but I was always able to find a chunk of gravity that kept my rotors loaded.

Reduced G load is not negative G load, although it my give you the willies.

[birdy]

In that case, whatever gyro you are flying, you better stop flying, or figure out what you are doing wrong.
??????????????????
Why would i stop flyn them DF????
Why do you say IM do'n sumthn rong????

I've hit downdrafts that reduced my g load, but I was always able to find a chunk of gravity that kept my rotors loaded.
So have i.
They are the little ones.
Are you sugesting that a virtical wind shear CANT make a gyro go neg???

[DennisFetters]

In that case, whatever gyro you are flying, you better stop flying, or figure out what you are doing wrong.
??????????????????
Why would i stop flyn them DF????
Why do you say IM do'n sumthn rong????

Your the one having problems.

Are you sugesting that a virtical wind shear CANT make a gyro go neg???

Yes, that is the fact, wind shear will not make a Air Command gyro go neg. I won't speak for other gyros.

[birdy]

Yes, that is the fact, wind shear will not make a Air Command gyro go neg. I won't speak for other gyros.
Hmmmm .................... cant say iv got a come back for that line.:der:
So tell me mr. DF, just wot made the shoulder straps on the ferel, and the lap strap on the wasa go tight?:confused:
So tight on the ferel in fact, that i had red welts where they 'hit' me.
If it wasnt neg G, id like to know wot it was.:twitch:

How different could my 2 machines be to your ACs??
They all have rotors for lifting, ................... is there sum sorta magic ina AC that i dont understand?:suspicious:

Oh, maybe thats it.:rolleyes:
YOUV never felt neg Gs in a gyro, so its now a fact that it CANT happen.:der:

[Kandace]

Awesome flying Dennis!! Do you still fly gyro's? Or are you working on something else...some secret project? ;)

Kandace

[DennisFetters]

Yes, that is the fact, wind shear will not make a Air Command gyro go neg. I won't speak for other gyros.
Hmmmm .................... cant say iv got a come back for that line.:der:
So tell me mr. DF, just wot made the shoulder straps on the ferel, and the lap strap on the wasa go tight?:confused:
So tight on the ferel in fact, that i had red welts where they 'hit' me.
If it wasnt neg G, id like to know wot it was.:twitch:

How different could my 2 machines be to your ACs??
They all have rotors for lifting, ................... is there sum sorta magic ina AC that i dont understand?:suspicious:

Oh, maybe thats it.:rolleyes:
YOUV never felt neg Gs in a gyro, so its now a fact that it CANT happen.:der:

David, I'm not going to get dragged into another endless discussion with you.

I said I can't answer for other gyro's because I have enough respect for the designers and builders to allow them to answer for their own machines. I didn't say one was greater than the other, I just said I will speak for my creations because I know them inside and out, that's all I meant.

As for your experiences I can not comment on what has happened to you, I was not there. But, if you allowed yourself to experience that much negative G loads in a gyro, then let's thank God somehow you were able to walk away.

[DennisFetters]

Awesome flying Dennis!! Do you still fly gyro's? Or are you working on something else...some secret project? ;)

Kandace

Thank you Kandace. Yes, I keep active in gyros. I still crank them about too, maybe not like I used to, but that may change soon.

I have 2 classic Commanders I'm restoring back to their original beauty, one with a 582 and the other with a 618. I need to finish painting the pods and pants and get them together for this summers flying.

I'm going to take them to all the air-shows and fly them under the noses of some of their critics, so they will have to spend so much time explaining why I'm not PPO'ing that they won't have time to enjoy the show. Is that being too evil??

[chuter]

I'm going to take them to all the air-shows and fly them under the noses of some of their critics, so they will have to spend so much time explaining why I'm not PPO'ing that they won't have time to enjoy the show. Is that being too evil??


To me this indicates that you don't have a good understanding of what the "critics" are saying.

The fact that YOU can fly one safely for 50 years and a gazillion hours doesn't mean that they are on the safe end of the scale for normal and/or low time pilots.

It's sort of like the old circus high wire performer up there on his unicycle with his hands in the air saying "see, this is safe!".

Safe for him maybe, but not for the masses.

The point is that a HTL machine has the RISK of PPO, not that it will PPO anytime it gets in the air.

You've done a lot of positive things for the sport over the years Dennis, but if you would just acknowledge the pros AND cons of your machines you would have more credibiility, IMHO.

Come to think of it; maybe you have posted something about HTL machines not being for the novice...........is that correct?

[DennisFetters]

To me this indicates that you don't have a good understanding of what the "critics" are saying.
The fact that YOU can fly one safely for 50 years and a gazillion hours doesn't mean that they are on the safe end of the scale for normal and/or low time pilots.
It's sort of like the old circus high wire performer up there on his unicycle with his hands in the air saying "see, this is safe!".
Safe for him maybe, but not for the masses.
The point is that a HTL machine has the RISK of PPO, not that it will PPO anytime it gets in the air.
You've done a lot of positive things for the sport over the years Dennis, but if you would just acknowledge the pros AND cons of your machines you would have more credibiility, IMHO.
Come to think of it; maybe you have posted something about HTL machines not being for the novice...........is that correct?


Michael,
I'm sorry you believe that "I don't have a good understanding of what the "critics" are saying."

As a matter of fact, I understand perfectly what they are saying.

You said: "The point is that a HTL machine has the RISK of PPO, not that it will PPO anytime it gets in the air."
I agree with what you said. How about that! And that is what I have always said too. But, I'm talking about the fanatics that say no matter what, it can uncontrollably nose over and kill you and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

That is correct, if you tie the stick and don't control the aircraft it will tend not to maintain straight flight if the conditions are so bad that it overcomes the stability that the Offset-Gimbaled head provides. HCLT machines will be more susceptible to this than CLT machines would be. But so what? Who fly's like that, or even would? Like in any aircraft, if you are not in control it will go out of control, some sooner than others, but it will not happen if you are in control, even to the normal pilots, because the definition of a normal pilot would mean he or she has full training and is competent to fly in adverse conditions, like anyone should be in any aircraft. Furthermore, it does not take anymore control inputs to keep an HCLT machine level than a CLT machine in normal conditions, and only the slightest instinctive control inputs in adverse conditions. So what, does that mean scrap everything? No, or we would be scrapping every airplane in favor of gyroplanes.

As for the low time pilots, yes, if they are really flying without adequate training and out of control from their instructors and encounter adverse conditions that they were failed to be instructed how to handle, then it is more of a chance for them to loose control and allow for a PPO or PIO to occur in a HCLT machine than a CLT machine. I have said this all along. It does not matter if they fly HCLT or CLT, you have to agree that full training is necessary, and being under the care of an instructor until they are competent, like in any other type of aircraft?

You said; "You've done a lot of positive things for the sport over the years Dennis, but if you would just acknowledge the pros AND cons of your machines you would have more credibility, IMHO." Thank you for saying so, I try to do good for the sport.

Now I'm trying to do good for the sport again, by correcting the belief that a HCLT machine will kill anyone anytime without notice from a PPO or PIO, with no reason at all. This is not true.

I believe that we are on the same page of agreeing with each other, and yes, as you said "Come to think of it; maybe you have posted something about HTL machines not being for the novice...........is that correct?" I did say that many times, just as I said it here again today, just some people don't want to remember or acknowledge I did. It's a death-trap for someone trying to train themselves, but with the proper instruction and supervision of an instructor, it's as safe as any machine, or as dangerous if misused. So what about this credibility issue? We say the same things, always have.

I am saying only one thing; the HCLT machine is safe to fly by a trained gyroplane pilot. It is not the death trap that "some" people say it is. I'm not saying to buy or fly an HCLT machine over a CLT machine, I'm saying what I said above, nothing more.

Michael, here is the first page out of every assembly manual that I sent for every Commander I ever sold. It's a little blurry to read, but it shows how I feel about the need for proper training then and now. And after reading this, can you believe there were still many people that refused to train and still attempted to self train???

I see that attitude coming back with the way the "security blanket" of the way CLT is being tossed around. Yes, it provides stability improvements, but it's not an excuse to skip proper training as some people are assuming.

[Kandace]

I read the warning page......and I must say you cannot put it more plainly than that!

Kandace

[chuter]

Now I'm trying to do good for the sport again, by correcting the belief that a HCLT machine will kill anyone anytime without notice from a PPO or PIO, with no reason at all. This is not true.


If someone believes a gyro will PPO for no reason, I would say they are mistaken.

There is a reason gyros PPO: it's because the forces that are present cause it to do so.

I don't know whether the people who have died from PPO had any notice or not: to them it may not have seemed so.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Birdy, it's hopeless to try and explain these things to people who are ignorant of what can really happen when you hit extreme turbulence.

Many moons ago before we started wearing crash helment's in water bombers I was doing a 45 degree down hill approach to a small fire just outside Santiago Chile when all of a sudden we hit a vicious down draft and my seat belt lock came undone.

I hit the window frame above me so hard it cut my head so bad the blood was blinding me....thankfully we flew with a crew of two so my FO could fly me back to the airport for medical treatment....yes you can go negative...real fast and without any warning.

[DennisFetters]

Birdy, it's hopeless to try and explain these things to people who are ignorant of what can really happen when you hit extreme turbulence.

Many moons ago before we started wearing crash helment's in water bombers I was doing a 45 degree down hill approach to a small fire just outside Santiago Chile when all of a sudden we hit a vicious down draft and my seat belt lock came undone.

I hit the window frame above me so hard it cut my head so bad the blood was blinding me....thankfully we flew with a crew of two so my FO could fly me back to the airport for medical treatment....yes you can go negative...real fast and without any warning.

We are talking about Gyroplanes. Airplanes are different than gyroplanes. Gyroplanes are the ones with the dooley-whoppers on top. Gyroplane rotors greatly absorb turbulence and offer a much more smooth and stable flight than any fixed-wing flying.

I would say that fighting fires in the mountains is just a little bit outside of the normal flight envelope that we are talking here. If you would have been in a gyroplane at that same place and time, your head would have never got hurt.

I too have been in extreme turbulence in airplanes, helicopters and gyroplanes, and nothing takes it better, or even close than a gyroplane.

[DennisFetters]

If someone believes a gyro will PPO for no reason, I would say they are mistaken.

There is a reason gyros PPO: it's because the forces that are present cause it to do so.

I don't know whether the people who have died from PPO had any notice or not: to them it may not have seemed so.

I don't know if you are not reading what I'm writing, or you can't understand, our you don't want to understand.
It will only PPO if the person at the controls allows themselves to get into a situation for it to PPO, and then allows it to do so.

[chuter]

Dennis,

I don't know if you are not reading what I'm writing, or you can't understand, our you don't want to understand.
It will only PPO if the person at the controls allows themselves to get into a situation for it to PPO, and then allows it to do so.


I think your statement is valid, except for the possibility of a sudden strong downdraft at the same time the gyro is under a high-power condition.

I think this may be a rare occurrence, but possible. And possibly the cause of some fatal accidents.

It seems quite a few pilots with adequate training have PPO'd to their deaths. You can say it's their fault; they shouldn't have gotten into that situation.

But humans, being less than perfect, tend to make mistakes.
What if a gust of wind hits the guy on his unicycle on the high wire and he falls? Is it his fault for not maintaining control, or is it an example of extremely risky behavior leading to predictable results?

There's no reason to fly a PPO-prone gyro; just design it so it won't PPO.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

I would say that fighting fires in the mountains is just a little bit outside of the normal flight envelope that we are talking here.

O.K. Dennis let me be more specific.....the fire was very small it had just started and I was not yet near enough to it to have been affected by any heat coming off of it.

The wind was not strong enough in the general vicinity to have given me any reason to expect such a violent down draft of air that my seat belt would come unlocked and I would be thrown up into the roof of the cockpit hard enough to fu.kin near kill me....Dennis that was more than going negative G...it was very quick and very violent...

...now what do you think would have happened if I had been flying a HTL gyro with the amount of power I was using on that water bomber to do the 45 degree wingover type entry into the fire area ( Climb power ) and had hit that downdraft?

If you would have been in a gyroplane at that same place and time, your head would have never got hurt.

That is truly a copout Dennis I expected better from you.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Dennis. Hello!!!! You could be GOD Almighty and you are not going to change the mind of some of these hardheads. You only think the HTL Air Command is stable and safe in the hands of a very experienced pilot like yourself, but even with your experience, your machine is prone to PPO.Flying it through forest fires and tornados will prove you wrong.You can fly a CLT through forest fires and tornados and live and you can do it with out touching the stick, in fact with your arms folded. Now just accept that and lets end this never ending discussion.You know that you or someone created the clt version of the Air Command so you could change your warning page. Now you need very little skill to fly a gyro which is where the forum wants us to be and now we can safly navigate the friendly skys or whatever nature throws at us(especially those nasty downdrafts) having solved the PPO and PIO issues and there will never be another gyro accident.

PS.
Nice job flying that death trap!

[chuter]

You could be GOD Almighty and you are not going to change the mind of some of these hardheads. You only think the HTL Air Command is stable and safe in the hands of a very experienced pilot like yourself, but even with your experience, your machine is prone to PPO.Flying it through forest fires and tornados will prove you wrong.You can fly a CLT through forest fires and tornados and live and you can do it with out touching the stick, in fact with your arms folded. Now just accept that and lets end this never ending discussion.You know that you or someone created the clt version of the Air Command so you could change your warning page. Now you need very little skill to fly a gyro which is where the forum wants us to be and now we can safly navigate the friendly skys or whatever nature throws at us(especially those nasty downdrafts) having solved the PPO and PIO issues and there will never be another gyro accident.


Larry, that sounds like an emotional extremist post trying to belittle legitimate concerns people have expressed.

And you must share these concerns, seeing as you have modified your gyro to minimize the risks that have been described.

That type of post just makes it easy for newbies to dismiss anything they don't want to hear.

[DennisFetters]

I would say that fighting fires in the mountains is just a little bit outside of the normal flight envelope that we are talking here.
O.K. Dennis let me be more specific.....the fire was very small it had just started and I was not yet near enough to it to have been affected by any heat coming off of it.
The wind was not strong enough in the general vicinity to have given me any reason to expect such a violent down draft of air that my seat belt would come unlocked and I would be thrown up into the roof of the cockpit hard enough to fu.kin near kill me....Dennis that was more than going negative G...it was very quick and very violent....

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that when flying an airplane in these conditions is very risky, and there are many that flew into a condition like that and didn't live to tell about it. That is the risk in an airplane, those wings are big and can really catch the turbulence and downdrafts, and worse, in this situation they can stall, whip stall, go into a spin and even snap the wings right off!! You are lucky to be alive, and thank God for it.

[...now what do you think would have happened if I had been flying a HTL gyro with the amount of power I was using on that water bomber to do the 45 degree wingover type entry into the fire area ( Climb power ) and had hit that downdraft?. If you would have been in a gyroplane at that same place and time, your head would have never got hurt.
[That is truly a copout Dennis I expected better from you.

I'm not copping-out. I am saying "THAT" is the miracle of the gyroplane over the airplane. It will not stall, or whip-stall, or spin out of control, nor can you pull enough G's to brake the rotors. In fact, it's rotors will absorb the turbulence, and downdrafts will not knock it around like it will with large wing surfaces of an airplane. If a downdraft occurs gravity immediately keeps your rotors loaded. Even in a sharp turn, is a downdraft occurs the aircrafts momentum will keep your rotors loaded by automatically widening the turn.

Sure, there is a limit to how much, but the limit is much greater then that of what an airplane can take. If the situation gets so bad that it affects the gyro enough to reverse the airflow in a downdraft, then it don't matter if you are in a HCLT or CLT machine, you are in trouble.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Flying it through forest fires and tornados will prove you wrong.You can fly a CLT through forest fires and tornados and live and you can do it with out touching the stick, in fact with your arms folded.

Larry you obviously did not read what I wrote....

I was " N O T " flying through a forest fire....I was not even near the small fire that had just started in a gully at the base of the mountains.....

The downdraft had nothing to do with the fire, it was just one of those rare occurrences that we ocassionally fly into when we fly close to the ground as an occupation.

To bring tornadoes into it just makes your argument childish or maybe you truly are ignorant of the fact that " any " pilot can fly into these violent down drafts without any warning.

So back to my question Larry...

What do you think would happen to a HTL gyro under climb power if it flew into a down draft of the intensity that I described?

[DennisFetters]

Dennis. Hello!!!!
Nice job flying that death trap!"
ASK THE MAN THAT OWNS ONE"

You know something Larry, you should follow your own advice. Ask this guy;

Dennis, not to undermine what the gyro cummunity has done today...you know with CLT and large HS. I just want to let you know that I had a 582 powered HTL AC back when I was 22 and flew it for 5 years. I took some training and was off in the hill country flying. I never once experieced the nose over conditions or PIO or any kind of instablity at all with my AC. And I'm the type of guy that wont climb a shaky ladder or unstable scaffolding I can't stand unsecure heights period.

It's a shame that a lot of folks have died in gyrocopters but some of them had no buisness up there to begin with. (lack of or incomplete traning)

Anyway thought I would share that... and by the way nice video :~) Not as sweet as your promovideo. I loved the 90* bank you pulled on that one!

Where is that vido anyway?

[LARRYEBOYER]

Wow. I've been called a lot of things, but emotional extremist?I do get emotional about kids and puppy dogs, but real hard to get emotional or be an extremist over some of the nonsence posted on this forum by people that have little or no experience in the matter.I'll try to shut up and agree with all your rantings.That's what is expected from HTL pilots anyway.

Dennis, I was being facisious about you flying the AC death trap(your design was anything but in the right hands with adequate training)..Sorry you misunderstood.. I used to have a HTL Aircommand and still know many people that fly your design and I loved mine . I did buy the CLT upgrade and it flew great also. I never experienced the PPO feeling ever in the machine. It felt stable.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

f the situation gets so bad that it affects the gyro enough to reverse the airflow in a downdraft, then it don't matter if you are in a HCLT or CLT machine, you are in trouble.

So all this talk about PPO is just waste of time?

You are just as safe in a HTL gyro in a down draft such as I described as you would be in a CLT gyro?

You are lucky to be alive, and thank God for it.

We experience turbulence such as I described quite often bombing forest fires Dennis....the only thing that was different about that one was my seat belt lock let go resulting in me being smacked into the roof.

When operating airplanes in known turbulence we fly them at a speed that is recommended for rough air penetration....the only loss of wings fire bombing were found to be due to undetected wing cracks that finally let go.

[DennisFetters]

Dennis,
I think your statement is valid, except for the possibility of a sudden strong downdraft at the same time the gyro is under a high-power condition.
I think this may be a rare occurrence, but possible. And possibly the cause of some fatal accidents.
It seems quite a few pilots with adequate training have PPO'd to their deaths. You can say it's their fault; they shouldn't have gotten into that situation.
But humans, being less than perfect, tend to make mistakes.
What if a gust of wind hits the guy on his unicycle on the high wire and he falls? Is it his fault for not maintaining control, or is it an example of extremely risky behavior leading to predictable results?
There's no reason to fly a PPO-prone gyro; just design it so it won't PPO.

Michael,

Everyone has their opinion based on whatever experience they have. I am not here to change your mind, I'm stating what I know from the many years I have in the business and the thousands of hours I have in gyro's, and the people I know that fly gyro's, and the many people I've trained to fly gyro's. You don't have to change your mind, and your mind could probably not be changed no matter what. That's fine.

I have flown both HCLT and CLT gyro's, and I know their characteristics. I base my statements of life experiences. If you don't believe me is fine. I have explained my points from every angle, and if that's not enough then it's never going to be enough.

I can only keep saying what I know to be facts, and you can only do the same, and I'll respect you for that.

[DennisFetters]

Dennis, I was being facisious about you flying the AC death trap(your design was anything but in the right hands with adequate training)..Sorry you misunderstood.. I used to have a HTL Aircommand and still know many people that fly your design and I loved mine . I did buy the CLT upgrade and it flew great also. I never experienced the PPO feeling ever in the machine. It felt stable.

I'm sorry if I took it wrong, I don't know how else I could have took it, but I'm sorry I did. It's easy to take things wrong when your dodging the flack for a few hours as I've been doing.

[DennisFetters]

f the situation gets so bad that it affects the gyro enough to reverse the airflow in a downdraft, then it don't matter if you are in a HCLT or CLT machine, you are in trouble.
So all this talk about PPO is just waste of time?
You are just as safe in a HTL gyro in a down draft such as I described as you would be in a CLT gyro?
You are lucky to be alive, and thank God for it.
We experience turbulence such as I described quite often bombing forest fires Dennis....the only thing that was different about that one was my seat belt lock let go resulting in me being smacked into the roof.
When operating airplanes in known turbulence we fly them at a speed that is recommended for rough air penetration....the only loss of wings fire bombing were found to be due to undetected wing cracks that finally let go.

Chuck, I feel like I'm digging the hole deeper rather then getting any filling done. I'm not trying to take anything away from Firefighters, they have my respect. I think what I've been saying to you is not coming across the way I mean for it too, so rather then make things worse, I'll just answer the one question.

You said; "So all this talk about PPO is just waste of time?".

No, not at all, nor did I ever say that. It is an important part of any gyro that needs to be trained into the pilot to stay away from. I am only saying, for a million times now, that the HCLT machine is safe to fly by a trained gyroplane pilot. It is not the death trap that "some" people say it is. I'm not saying to buy or fly an HCLT machine over a CLT machine, I'm saying what I said above, nothing more.

[barnstorm2]

I used to have a HTL Aircommand and still know many people that fly your design and I loved mine . I did buy the CLT upgrade and it flew great also. I never experienced the PPO feeling ever in the machine. It felt stable.

Why did you buy the CLT kit then?

So much for you being a good example to others with your modifications.

BTW, you don't experience a 'PPO feeling'. You would be dead if you did. You can only experience a PIO or neg-g feeling.

I fly an HTL gyroplane and I have many hours in a AirCommand Commander single place HTL. I loved that machine and still do. It was great fun and most of the time very docile. However, have run into small downdrafts with it and it was no joy to fly then. It required a great deal of "pilot workload". Had it been CLT that 'workload' would not have been needed and would not have been a jeopardy to safety.

Michael,
Everyone has their opinion based on whatever experience they have..

Understanding thrust-lines and PPO events requires only an understanding of highschool physics or the desire to learn it.

Physics and the universe does not care what your opinion is.


If a downdraft occurs gravity immediately keeps your rotors loaded. Even in a sharp turn, is a downdraft occurs the aircrafts momentum will keep your rotors loaded by automatically widening the turn..

Not true.

....... If the situation gets so bad that it affects the gyro enough to reverse the airflow in a downdraft, then it don't matter if you are in a HCLT or CLT machine, you are in trouble.

There is a great degree of difference here. In a CLT machine this is an easy event to survive provided you have some altitude. In a HTL machine you will die unless you were lucky enough to cut the throttle in time. There is no such thing as HCLT.

.

[chuter]

I'll try to shut up and agree with all your rantings.That's what is expected from HTL pilots anyway.


Larry,

I'm not ranting; if that's what you call my posts then we've got a communication disconnect.

I just think that taking that sarcastic extremist attitude is as bad as the other side calling HTL gyros death machines.
To me that looks like "bashing" from your end.

There's a middle ground here where the truth is, and I think most of us have already agreed on a lot of things.

It seems most of us agree that flying a HTL gyro has a higher level of risk than flying a CLT or LTL gyro. And of course there are varying degrees of HTL and LTL.

That doesn't mean that all HTL gyros will bunt when they leave the ground. It just means the pilot has to be more vigilant.

Adding a HS lowers the level of risk.

People find the level of risk they are comfortable with and live with it, and I support that.

Just so long as their decision is not based on bad information.

We do that in all walks of life; whether it's choosing a mutual fund by trusting an advisor, or choosing Ford or Chevy.

Dennis is a good pilot and can obviously do well in a HTL gyro; we shouldn't take this to mean that it's a good idea for everyone.

Unfortunately our sport has a bad reputation, and anything we can do to make it safer is better for all of us in the long run.

Especially since making a gyro PPO-proof doesn't sacrifice performance.

[birdy]

As for your experiences I can not comment on what has happened to you, I was not there. But, if you allowed yourself to experience that much negative G loads in a gyro, then let's thank God somehow you were able to walk away.
It make no difference where you were Dennis, you said it was FACT that a gyro cant go neg G.
Why would i think anyone?

If a downdraft occurs gravity immediately keeps your rotors loaded. Even in a sharp turn, is a downdraft occurs the aircrafts momentum will keep your rotors loaded by automatically widening the turn.
Dennis, your kinda missn the point.
We aint talkn bout your regular 1500 fpm garden variety down drafts here, we are talkn sevier, like 2500fpm+.
And dont for a second think, that if you only fly in fine wether you wont hit one, coz they can be anywhere anytime.
The worst i ever hit was just after sun down, on a silk smooth afternoon, so strong in fact, that it took the stick outa me hand.
Yes, it did scare the crap outa me, mainly coz it was the last thing i was expecting.
And the steeper the angle of bank your at the faster you drop, coz if the air is go'n down at 2500fpm, so will you, coz most of your rotor thrust is horisontal.

You could be GOD Almighty and you are not going to change the mind of some of these hardheads.
[I know i shouldnt, coz itll gain nuthn, but i have to.]
Larry, your a dichead.
Its people like you, and more unfortunate, people who listen to people like you who will get bit.
I couldnt give a sh1t bout your arrogant ass, but i do wurry bout other innocents. :(


ps; Dennis, are you still sayn that fact is actualy fact?

[gab76]

I took off from Air Command, Cado Mills Texas on day by myself in the tandem trainer. Partly cloudy with some rain showers here and there. Clear as a bell for 40 miles. From a distance the rain showers looked like a vail curtain or waterfall.

I thought the rain showers would look great from altitude and there wasn't any weather close to the airport. So with what I thought was little measured risk, I took off. I was soon proven wrong. Climbing out to the west, a cloud just in front of me let out it's rain. If you know anything about downdrafts from precip., air is carried with the rain droplets down to the ground. The ground being solid, blocks the downflow of air molecules. The air /wind/ then continues horizontal along the ground. In weather terms, this is called a "plow wind". In my situation, the plow wind hit my gyro and sent me vertical. I pulled the power all back to stop the ascent and froze the stick. I then banked to the left to get back to the airport and away from the condition. As I was flying back, I had the sensation I was on a surf board riding a wave with my tail being pushed up and my nose pointed down. At this time mother nature had me and I had very little. I went weightless in the seat. My saving response was to hold back pressure on the control stick to try and keep my weight in the seat (and of course the blades loaded). This went on for a couple of minute until I out-paced the velocity of the wind.

Out racing the wind to the airport, upon landing was hit by the plow wind again, but I was on the ground and kept the blades flat. The wind soon passed and I taxiied back with great relief to storage!

I hope this tid-bit can help you in your future flying decisions. It sure re-shaped mine!