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GyroRon
07-03-2004, 06:00 PM
Today I went to our PRA chapter 13 monthly meeting and took one of our Airport Rats Rick Keenen to the meeting with me. We drove down to Aiken - nearly a 2 hour drive - since the weather today was nearly or was IFR and that means no flying in the Pacer today!

After the meeting we went over to another Airport I like to visit Trenton airport. Here we hung out and BSed for a few hours and the highlight of the trip is they let us all - Ray Pierce and John Magnum also came over from the meeting to hang out at Trenton today - Take the Hovercraft the Trenton guys built for a ride or flight or whatever you call it. Anyway this is the problem....


So after all the fun we decided to drive home. From Aiken till nearly Rock Hill all I did was Argue with Rick over that Hovercraft..... He thinks a few things I disagree with him over and we fought the whole way back over it. He thinks the following things, you guys tell me what you think

1. He believes that the hovercraft at full power on the lift engine was " hovering " only 2 inches off the surface. He considers the bottom of the skirt to be the bottom of the craft. Now saying that he feels that if the lift engine made a lot more power the whole craft including the bottom of the Skirt would " hover " higher off the ground. ------ I disagree because IMHO it don't matter how much air that lift motor pushes the craft will rise to a certain point and that is it, any more power or air pumped under the thing and the excess wil just blow out and the craft will remain at the same height. He believes that if the lift motor had alot more power that at full power the bottom of the skirt could be 3 or 4 or 5 or more inches off the ground instead of the 2 inches off the ground it hovers at now...

2. He believes that in general a hovercraft if sitting on WATER in hover mode will by the force of the air being blown down to " lift " the craft will cause the water underneath the craft to sink or be blown out. He feels that for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction and his logic is if you blow enough air down to lift a 500-700 pound hovercraft, then that force blown down has to " push" on the water. And since water isn't a solid like concrete the air blown or pushed down on it will cause a 1-3 inch lower water level just under the craft. He compares it to blowing on a straw into his coffee cup. Or compares it to a helicopter hovering over the water etc.... -------- I disagree because the hovercraft operates on the principals of low pressure and high volume of air being trapped under the craft causing it to form a cushion of air allowing it to " hover " a few inches off the surface your on. There is not enough pressure under the craft to displace that much water IMHO.

3 He believes that all hovercraft " ride " lower and slower on water than land since they "sink" into the water anywhere from a few inches on a lightweight model like the little single place at Trenton to a much deeper level of sink on big military units such as a L-Cat the Marines use to deploy troops and Tanks and so on. ---- I think this is just the way they look because of all the water spray from the edges of the skirt....

4. Also going along with numbers 2 and 3, he believes if a hovercraft just sat in one spot over a very dry soft sandy beach it would just sit there and sink and sink and sink till it either hit a hard surface like Rock or dug it's way to China.... --- I disagree to a point. Yes if it sat there it would blow out sand around the edges but the middle area would not blow away and sooner or later the hovercraft would effectively highside on the mound in the middle.

5. On that hovercraft at Trenton he believes it will nose over in the water since the skirt is only 2 inches off the surface on the ground when hovering, and in water the craft will " sink" into the water it displaces as it is blowing down on the water which will cause the skirt to no longer be above the surface but now at or below the surface and the faster you go forwards the more the skirt will go under water till a point where the nose of the machine will dig in and the craft will sink or whatever. ---- I disagree because I think every idea he is using for his beliefs is wrong for starters, but also because the bottom of the skirt is not the end all bottom of the craft. The Bottom of the craft is at least a foot higher than the bottom of the skirt and that is the part you want out of the water. That is the part that would be a problem if it dug into the water. Saying that I think the only problems the Trenton Hovercraft would have on water is if they try to drive it down a very steep boat ramp into the water and the nose goes under flooding the lift engine and causing it to quit running, But even then if the rest of the ship floats like it was designed to, there should be no big problems.

Me and Rick fought over this stuff steady for well over a hour and a half. Tell me guys if I am right or is Rick right? someone is going to be eating crow tonight!

rehler
07-03-2004, 06:46 PM
By my count:

1, 2 and 3 go to Rick.

4 and 5 go to you.

3 to 2 - Rick wins.

StanFoster
07-03-2004, 07:09 PM
Ron: Interesting questions.....My opinion is that as more power is made available to the fan...more air volume will be forced under the craft. This extra air being supplied will half to blow out under the craft and will raise it more.

You can see this as the engine is revved up. The craft keeps raising . There is a point where the craft will raise very little for any more power increases..but it will raise because it has to let this extra air volume out.

The water dishing down has to happen because the weight of the craft is basically sitting on a bubble of air that is exerting pressure on the water underneath.

This is easily seen just watching the downwash of our Coast Guard helicopters that we see all the time. The helicopter is basically pushing lots of air down...as it has no skirts around it except just atmospheric pressure.
You can see the waves made by this water being rippled out under this downwash.

Points 4 and 5 I agree with you. The sand will just blow out in a bowl shape until equilbrium is established. By this I mean the escaping air will at first be more horizontal..but as the sand is pumped into a crater shape..this escaping air will now start exiting with more vertical escape...until equilibrium settles in and it just hovers at this point.
Stan

KenSandyEggo
07-03-2004, 09:12 PM
Ron, after you guys get it settled, could you please solve the Iraq and Middle East problems and maybe figure out the 'meaning of life?' Thanks.

quadrirotor
07-03-2004, 11:15 PM
Why don't you put wings?

http://www.hovercraft.com/

WN
07-04-2004, 12:01 AM
Disclaimer: This post in no way endorses inverted gyro flight. Offer not valid in Alaska, Hawaii or Fort Mill S.C. Reproduction not authorized without the expressed written consent of the NFL, NASCAR and Major League Baseball.

1. Two issues.

a. He considers the bottom of the skirt to be the bottom of the craft. Rick wins. The skirt is arguably the most critical component of a hovercraft.

b. if the lift engine made a lot more power the whole craft including the bottom of the Skirt would " hover " higher off the ground. Both Ron and Rick win. You don’t define how much more power. An F-100 jet engine? Yes, it would go higher; but passing 2 ½ to 3 feet you would have the flight attitude of Ron Awad on a Sunday afternoon. (inverted) Generally speaking though, Ron is correct. Adding more power would not raise the craft appreciably.

2. a hovercraft if sitting on WATER in hover mode will by the force of the air being blown down to " lift " the craft will cause the water underneath the craft to sink or be blown out. Ron wins. Let’s do the math here. A 500 pound craft verses … A LAKE. Gee, that’s a tough one. The water blown out the sides is incidental. The water below certainly does not sink below the craft. The air pressure lifts the craft, the same as it would over concrete. The forces acting on the surface are so widely spread and minimal it makes the argument laughable.

3. Two issues.

a. all hovercraft " ride " lower and slower on water than land… How can I say this politely? WRONG. Ron wins. Unless Rick is aware of some huge piece of glass lying on a desert floor somewhere, there is no better surface than calm water to ride a hovercraft; he’s deceived by all the water kicked up.

b. …to a much deeper level of sink on big military units such as a L-Cat the Marines use to deploy troops and Tanks. Ron wins. First off, this vehicle is an LCAC not an L-Cat. The size of the craft is really irrelevant. It exerts the same basic displacement on the water as the little guy pictured above.

4. ...if a hovercraft just sat in one spot over a very dry soft sandy beach it would just sit there and sink and sink and sink till it either hit a hard surface like Rock or dug it's way to China. Okay, here’s my answer. I DON’T KNOW who’s correct.

5. The argument isn’t clear here, Ron. Not sure of the point.

My score:

Ron: 4
Rick: 2

GraemeMonro
07-04-2004, 03:22 AM
Kenny J.. This one has already been figured out, it's "48"!!!! You have spent too much time flying your gyro in covert opps instead of hichhiking around the galaxy. :D

GyroRon
07-04-2004, 05:35 AM
Thanks guys for the input. I honestly wouldn't bother everyone with my disputes such as this, but if you had been in the car with me and Rick you would have got nutz listening to us fight this thing out. I posted this here because I thought not only might I get some others opinions, but also thought this might make a interesting off topic discussion.

I spoke to the builder of the hovercraft last night after I had already posted this. I had sent out a Email nearly identical as this post to him and a few others and he called me to tell me who was right on all this. To him I win 4 out of five and am only wrong on part 2. He says that there is a very slight almost unmeasureable hole or displacement of water under a hovercraft on water. But it is not what Rick has described as a 1-3 inch hole under the ship....

ymmv
07-04-2004, 06:00 AM
This one has already been figured out, it's "48"!!!!

You mean 42.

Chuck Irby
07-04-2004, 06:31 AM
Who cares? :D

RayPierce
07-04-2004, 06:32 AM
You mean 42.

Dang! I wuz wrong again.

I thought it was Wednesday!

ymmv
07-04-2004, 06:41 AM
2.... Let’s do the math here. A 500 pound craft verses … A LAKE. Gee, that’s a tough one.

Waitaminnit. Even a canoe will raise the level of the entire lake, even a rubber raft. They displace their weight in water. A 500 lb. vessel will displace 500 lbs. or about 62 gallons or eight cubic ft. of water, and so the lake's level will rise by the same amount as if you had poured that volume of water into it. If a hovercraft is a ground effect vehicle -- that is, if it floats by pushing against the ground -- then the same should be true of it, yes? It should displace its weight in water.


The air pressure lifts the craft, the same as it would over concrete. The forces acting on the surface are so widely spread and minimal it makes the argument laughable.

A 500 lb. hovercraft will exert 500 lbs. of pressure on the concrete beneath it, whether the engine is on or off. If it's just sitting there, engine off, it's putting the pressure just on the wheels or whatever points it rests on. If it's in ground effect it's exerting that exact same amount of pressure evenly spread over the entire area under the skirt.

Likewise on water. The air pressure works primarily on the water just under the craft, within the skirt, just as a displacement craft displaces the water under it, within the area circumscribed by its water line. Difference is that with a hovercraft, the edge of the affected area is fuzzy.

So you can figure the weight of the craft and know that it'll displace that weight of water; figure the volume of that water; figure the affected area of lake surface; and from that, figure how much the water under the craft is lowered -- very roughly, that is, because things get so messy at the edges. The math is similar to boat math.

None of this is true of a craft that's above ground effect.

(I am NOT NOT NOT certain of this. Bracing myself, waiting for some physicist to come and start slapping me around....)

KenSandyEggo
07-04-2004, 08:42 AM
"Bart Black?".....like "Black Bart?" C'mon now. What parents would name their kid that? :cool: There was a kid in my ex-wife's grade school that was named "Buster Cherry." Ooops. Don't read this post if it offends you. Todd, am I getting this warning thing down right? Doesn't seem to be working correctly.

Vance
07-04-2004, 08:48 AM
Good job Bart, Thank You, Vance

ymmv
07-04-2004, 02:49 PM
"Bart Black?".....like "Black Bart?" C'mon now.

Curses. Foiled again.

mceagle
07-04-2004, 04:15 PM
I go with Bart. The hovercraft should displace its own weight in water.
On the ground it would keep building up pressure underneath until that pressure was enough to lift the craft, whence the skirt becomes the relief valve. The pressure under the craft should always remain the same (enough to lift the craft's weight) so an increase in volume (power) would mean an increase in height necessary for the extra air to escape.

GyroRon
07-04-2004, 09:14 PM
Well see this is the stuff we fought over for nearly two hours. He is with Bart, Vance and Tim and I am obviously not. I bet Chuck Beaty could straighten this matter up in a hurry.

KenSandyEggo
07-04-2004, 11:02 PM
Chuck hasn't even visited here in 3 weeks. Methinks he got pissed over the Maxie Wilde resignation thread.

Aussie_Paul
07-05-2004, 07:28 AM
Ron, you just need help Period!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aussie Paul.:)

Hey Ron, how about the smiley on my quick reply!!!!!!

GyroRon
07-05-2004, 07:48 AM
We I was getting ready to say as long as we got Aussie Paul, we don't really " Need " Chuck Beaty... But now look whatcha gone done! :) :)