what are the benefits? [Archive]

WaspAir

12-30-2007, 04:19 PM

Gary,
You're welcome to use the airport anytime you'd like. You just choose not to.

The PRA Mentone airport has had rotorcraft visitors from ALL 50 states and at least 8 foreign countries. The all 50 states record was attained during the SECOND convention in 1997.

Let's be fair and practical, folks - a pilot in Montana won't see much direct benefit in having an airport in Indiana available to him, and it's not a very surprising "choice" not to fly 2000 miles from Oregon to do a few touch and go landings there. (There's also a political reality that has to be dealt with - there was a fair bit of resentment on the west coast when that airport was purchased so far from members on the Pacific side of the country, with many upset that they had no say in the matter, and no doubt some of that resentment still persists, whether one agrees with it or not.)

I'm not arguing that one shouldn't join PRA. I just think Mentone is not an especially great selling point for people west of the Rockies, and that benefits that directly help out pilots in Montana will be more persuasive to somebody thinking about starting a chapter there.

Gary_in_Orygun

12-30-2007, 04:40 PM

Gary,
You're welcome to use the airport anytime you'd like. You just choose not to.
Thanks for the offer of letting me use the Mentone airport anytime I would like. I don't think the $100's it would take to get me and my gyro there would be worth it. And 'sides, I dropped my membership. Does that mean the offer is no good any more? ;) I would loved to have made it to Mentone, but it just wasn't to be.

I do agree with ya'all about the great voice that the organization provides with the FAA.

The price is a little steep when I add PRA membership to my AOPA and EAA memberships too. And the magazines from those two organizations give me plenty of good reading. The PRA magazines have been as good as they could be with the decreased money to spend on producing them while the airport sucked the membership money for a couple years. Also, the PRA magazines had many pages of old-news (history), which didn't float my boat.

I hear people say that the magazine is what we make it. True. I did submit a few articles a few years ago. But I spent lots of my extra time on my local chapter 73 as web and newsletter editor. So I had my fill of "putting out".

It was just time for me to pull back since I was having trouble with the way the money flowed and the inequity in return for the majority of the membership.:violin: 'nough of that sad story...

gyroplanes

12-30-2007, 04:41 PM

Let's be fair and practical, folks - a pilot in Montana won't see much direct benefit in having an airport in Indiana available to him, and it's not a very surprising "choice" not to fly 2000 miles from Oregon to do a few touch and go landings there. (There's also a political reality that has to be dealt with - there was a fair bit of resentment on the west coast when that airport was purchased so far from members on the Pacific side of the country, with many upset that they had no say in the matter, and no doubt some of that resentment still persists, whether one agrees with it or not.)

I'm not arguing that one shouldn't join PRA. I just think Mentone is not an especially great selling point for people west of the Rockies, and that benefits that directly help out pilots in Montana will be more persuasive to somebody thinking about starting a chapter there.

The PRA Mentone airport wasn't purchased so someone in the Pacific Northwest could come and do touch-and-goes. I live 100 miles away, I've never landed there either.

The PRA Mentone airport was purchased to have a guaranteed home for the PRA & it's convention. The PRA board spent many a worried hour trying to find a place to hold the annual event after a last minute cancellation.
The PRA also paid rent for our office space for many, many years. For nearly the same "rent" we now own the office. PRA also made a VERY good investment.

Gary Goldsberry and/or Art Evans could have bought the airport for themselves and doubled their money by now.
I offered to take the airport off PRA's hands when the controversy started, the offer still stands.

John Stahl

12-30-2007, 08:00 PM

Guys I didn’t ask you to second guess past PRA board decisions. As a board member of three different organizations I am aware of how tough it is to be on the board.
I’m Board to Death.
I support the decision to purchase the Mentone Airport. For any organization to survive it is necessary to make sure that the services you provide do not change. For the PRA to hold the annual fly-in they needed a location that would be consistent and provide the services necessary. They couldn’t have an airport manager keep throwing a monkey wrenches at them. It was a smart move. One that had many angry with them but one in the long run will pay us all big dividends.
So far I have learned that the PRA provides the following support for there chapters
• The PRA is our national voice. Our voice to the EAA, ASC, FAA and others.
The PRA got us into the Light Sport program. The FAA originally said "NO ROTORCRAFT"
• The PRA holds an annual fly-in / convention
• The PRA does everything it can to promote gyroplanes and sport rotorcraft.
• The PRA management is almost exclusively volunteers, people that give their time and money for the love of the sport
• PRA magazines
• A chapter provides a way for other people in Montana who are interested in gyros to find you.

I was hoping they would help us sponsor regional fly-ins.
Perhaps the PRA needs to advertise more aggressively what services they provide for there chapters.

GyroDoug

12-30-2007, 08:41 PM

John,

I am not sure if you are looking for a list of things that you will get by joining the PRA to weigh it against the cost, that you will be able to come up with something that seems like a great deal for you. The truth is, you may have to put more into it than you will ever get out of it. I think that is the way it is with most people who make a difference in this world.

However, if you are determined to look at it from a selfish (what's in it for me) standpoint, I would suggest you consider the fact that Gyroplanes are the smallest Aviation Group in existence. They don't have a very good safety record. And there are a lot of people, starting with Administrators in the FAA, that would love nothing more than to see Gyros totally go away. If we do not band together, get along, and work collectively together to promote Gyros, to improve our safety record and increase our numbers, it is not hard to believe that we could be regulated right out of existence.

However, if we do work together, grow our numbers, recruit new enthusiasts, build more chapters and introduce the benefits of Gyro flight to the public, there is every reason to believe we can become an equal member of the Light Sport Aviation Group that is starting to bring Aviation back to the American public. We will be able to continue to pursue our own Aviation goals and pass them on to others when we get past the stage where we can continue carrying the ball ourselves.

If you think Rotary flight is something that should be available to the public, I can't imagine why you would resist joining every organization that you possibly could to further that cause. Granted, it costs a few dollars to belong every year, for which you get a magazine and support, but even if you never got anything for it other than the ability to keep pursuing your Rotary flight goals it would be a very small price to pay. Compared to what it costs to build or fly a Gyro, your PRA costs are nothing. Put it in perspective and you will see that the PRA is a very small investment that you can't afford to not to be involved with.

At least that's how I feel about it. God bless each of us and our efforts to expand and improve the Gyro Flying World.

Gyro Doug

Timchick

12-30-2007, 09:41 PM

Let's be fair and practical, folks - a pilot in Montana won't see much direct benefit in having an airport in Indiana available to him, and it's not a very surprising "choice" not to fly 2000 miles from Oregon to do a few touch and go landings there. (There's also a political reality that has to be dealt with - there was a fair bit of resentment on the west coast when that airport was purchased so far from members on the Pacific side of the country, with many upset that they had no say in the matter, and no doubt some of that resentment still persists, whether one agrees with it or not.)

I'm not arguing that one shouldn't join PRA. I just think Mentone is not an especially great selling point for people west of the Rockies, and that benefits that directly help out pilots in Montana will be more persuasive to somebody thinking about starting a chapter there.

Fair and practical? Would that have been buying an airport in California? The main function of PRA's airport is to serve as a headquarters and a guaranteed site for it's annual fly-in/convention. ROC got booted from the airport it was using last year, Bensen Days had a problem with it's insurance last year and there was a chance it wasn't going to happen. PRA will not have to worry about any of that for it's annual event. I haven't made it to Mentone either but I'm not going to cry about it being so far away. Why do some people have the attitude that if they can't enjoy something or participate in something they don't want anyone else to enjoy it without them.

barnstorm2

12-30-2007, 10:21 PM

Gary,

I am a National EAA member. I have never been to Oshkosh and now that they have backed out of Sun-n-fun and mostly support war-bird owners they are even less likely to support my gyro hobby.

Yet, I am still a EAA member.

By your logic you should not be an EAA member. They don't poll the membership for $h|T when buying multi-million dollar war birds that are money pits or build new buildings in Oshkosh hundreds of miles away from most of the members.

We got an airport for the price of renting an office for goodness sake.

There is more to the PRA then what you see in the mirror when you get up.

The reason to join is for the good of the hobby, not the magazine, the location of the office or how often they ask you your opinion during board meetings.

If you can't afford a PRA membership I am surprised you can afford to fly. You should renew.

Maybe then you can join the PRA board and buy an airport in CA...

.
.

WaspAir

12-30-2007, 11:22 PM

Fair and practical? Would that have been buying an airport in California? The main function of PRA's airport is to serve as a headquarters and a guaranteed site for it's annual fly-in/convention. ROC got booted from the airport it was using last year, Bensen Days had a problem with it's insurance last year and there was a chance it wasn't going to happen. PRA will not have to worry about any of that for it's annual event. I haven't made it to Mentone either but I'm not going to cry about it being so far away. Why do some people have the attitude that if they can't enjoy something or participate in something they don't want anyone else to enjoy it without them.

I think you missed my point. I'm not complaining about somebody else enjoying a benefit, nor suggesting revisiting the decision to buy an airport. I'm talking about marketing PRA to people in the West. Telling someone that they could choose to use Mentone (as in your prior post), when that airport is thousands of miles away, simply doesn't sell them on PRA. It's not a terribly fair or practical answer to the question, "why should I join?". As a matter of salesmanship, if you want to sell the organization, you have to sell what the potential members might find interesting to buy, or you won't get the sale. There are a number of advantages in PRA membership, as have been mentioned in some of the posts, that apply to westerners. The ability to "choose" to use Mentone just isn't a very persuasive item for inclusion on that list. That's why I originally also said this:

I'm not arguing that one shouldn't join PRA. I just think Mentone is not an especially great selling point for people west of the Rockies, and that benefits that directly help out pilots in Montana will be more persuasive to somebody thinking about starting a chapter there.

Vance

12-31-2007, 03:35 AM

I have met a lot of very nice people by belonging to the PRA. I have become friends with many of them.

I love the magazine and it appears to me they do a lot for our little corner of aviation.

The dues seem like a small price to pay for something so big.

Thank you< Vance

Gary_in_Orygun

12-31-2007, 11:56 AM

The reason to join is for the good of the hobby, not the magazine, the location of the office or how often they ask you your opinion during board meetings.

That is your opinion regarding the "...good of the hobby, not the magazine". When I tried to talk up PRA to people attending a fly-in, it was the collateral I had to show (older color magazines) that got people interested. I was embarassed to show the thin B&W copies. Having lots of wanna-bees pay for, and druel over a pretty magazine with lots of colored flying pictures helps bring in the bucks to support the relatively few that actually fly and need the voice in the FAA.

I was an EAA member for years dreaming of one-day owning my own machine. The magazine helped keep my interest alive until I could finally make it happen. Just cause I think a magazine is more valuable to all members as opposed to an airport that only a minority can use doesn't mean I'm right. It just means that is my opinion, and why I choose to no longer support the cause through the mother ship. I'll stick to supporting the hobby in my little corner of the U.S. :ohwell:

Dean_Dolph

12-31-2007, 04:58 PM

Interesting thread!

There isn't much that can be added to why one would/should join the PRA. I could say that local builder/pilot assistance is one benefit but PRA members are a giving group so experience is shared without regard to whether the recipient is a PRA member. But it is hard to believe that some people will take advantage of that generiosity without buying into the only organization dedicated to supplying them with the info needed to build and then train them. The chances are that Norm's conference and this one would never have come into existance if the PRA hadn't kept the gyro visible and available. The principle players here are PRA members and we need to be thankful that Todd carried on for Norm and created the Forums.

One thing we do need to remember is that the gyros being flown today are a result of the PRA carrying on Igor Bensen's dream of flight. The gyro owners/pilots of tomorrow will be carrying on the 45 year old legacy that has been established primarily by the PRA.

A potential PRA member can think of dues as pay back to those that have gone before, because without their efforts, as members of the PRA, they would not have the opportunity to safely build and fly their machines. It can also be thought of as an investment in gyro flying in the future. Rotocraft enthusiasts need the PRA. And the PRA needs more rotorcraft enthusiasts.

Every PRA member needs to recruit and sign up one member in 2008. Gary, I'm ready and willing to resign you! You can even have your old member's number back!

Dean_Dolph

12-31-2007, 05:18 PM

One comment about the location of the airport. There has always been some controversy about where the convention is held. It is a case of you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. The conventions have been held on the East coast, the West coast, the Mid-West and even in Texas! And in every case there were some unhappy PRA members for various reasons.

Kathy Fields, former PRA mag editor, did a demographics on the location of PRA members when the PRA was going thru one of these controversies. She found that the center of the USA PRA population was located almost exactly where Menotone is! It wasn't planned that way and the population center may have shifted since but the fact is that Mentone is pretty much centrally located as far as members are concerned.

Oh yeah, just so I won't have to start another thread; all those West of the Rockies need to be promoting a PRA board member or two. There have only been two that I can remember running for the board and the couple of times I helped count votes my impression was that they didn't get the support they should have received. You Westerners just don't use the ballot box to your advantage!

Before anyone asks how I knew where the votes were coming from I'll tell you it was because of the postal stamp. And I could be wrong because I didn't set there and count; okay, that is one from Georgia and there is one from California or anything like that. But you see enough postal stamps and it becomes apparent where the votes are coming from.

Gary_in_Orygun

01-01-2008, 08:09 AM

It makes sense that if PRA feels the need to own an airport, then centrally located makes sense. It is too bad that the magazine suffered for it.

As I mentioned, the magazine is the one most visible benefits and draw for someone to join the PRA. You can talk and talk about benefits and services PRA provides, but having a glossy magazine in the hand (one a month) full of pictures and personal/current articles gives a feeling of value. So far the arguments for joining sound like PRA is a charity that needs support. $50/yr is more than the AOPA and EAA charge, and both of those provide large, colorful magazines 12 times a year. Yes, I know PRA isn't as big and doesn't have the member base to compete with that.

I'm sure that many members of EAA and AOPA are wanna-bees, but their numbers help build up those organizations. PRA should consider selling/marketing to wanna-bees as a highest priority to get the numbers up. Once numbers are up, maybe an airport and once-a-year fly-in would make more sense.

OK, this was fun, but as Forrest Gump said: "That's all I have to say 'bout that." :o

Airbike

01-01-2008, 04:40 PM

After I took my first demo flight at Air Command in 2003, I started a gyro savings account and joined the PRA. I knew there would be other temptations such as other motorcycles, etc as the nest egg got larger. The Rotorcraft magazine helped me keep my focus and I finally got my machine late 2004.

One thing I miss is the annual membership contact list that used to be sent out. There have been several inquiries on the forum lately about starting a chapter in the central Texas area without much response. I remember being surprised at the number of PRA members in the area when I read the list. Just as a side note, President Bush’s next-door neighbor was a PRA member at one time.

Eric VanPraag
Air Command CLT 582

ezeddie

01-01-2008, 08:12 PM

gyroplanes

01-01-2008, 08:55 PM

I was embarassed to show the thin B&W copies. Having lots of wanna-bees pay for, and druel over a pretty magazine with lots of colored flying pictures helps bring in the bucks to support the relatively few that actually fly and need the voice in the FAA.

Gary, I too miss the color magazines. If more people follow your lead and quit the PRA I suppose we will also get fewer and fewer issues per year.

Membership growth and great magazines don't just happen. Guy's like you and me are the PRA, we have to the recruit members and write the articles.

It wasn't the airport purchase that hurt the PRA's finances, it was the downturn in membership.
I do believe the airport has always been nearly self-supporting.
The magazine has always been the PRA's largest expense.

Timchick

01-01-2008, 09:10 PM

I got my a _ _ kicked in a pis_ing contest a week or so back when I asked what the PRA and EAA were doing to replace the 5209 Sport Pilot CFI's who had dropped or are going to be lost on 01/31/08. I still don't think I got an answer.

But, let's try this; in the Dec. '07 EAA mag. their is an article about the FAA formed Aviation Rulesmaking Committe (ARC) in '07 and having appointed persons to the committe. This committee, as I understand the article, is to address specific concerns relating to the 51% rule on kits of "all fast built aircraft". They (FAA) indicated a new policy was anticipated in early '08.

I don't recall the subject being address in recent PRA publications or on this site. But, I'm sure I missed something. Does anyone know if rotor/gyros are included and does the PRA have representation on this committe. I don't mean, ie. the genetic definition of "aircraft" being the all inclusive factor.

Thank you, eddie

Eddie,
From the posts in another thread it sounds like Groen Bros. (GBA SparrowHawk) is working with the FAA to make sure their kits will be accepted as part of the 51% rule.

Threads in the past have discussed what the current 5209 exempted CFI's had to do to get a new deviation to continue to instruct. I believe either Greg G. or Tom Milton was working with all the CFI's as they went through the process. We did lose a few BFI's with the new FAA changes. I don't know the number of BFI's we lost but I know we lost at least a couple.

The Xenon crew have petitioned the FAA for it to be sold as an LSA gyro after Jan 31 and other manufacturers are waiting to see what happens with them.

Other people can explain all these subjects in more detail but this is the info I can recall off the top of my head.

gyroplanes

01-01-2008, 09:17 PM

I got my a _ _ kicked in a pis_ing contest a week or so back when I asked what the PRA and EAA were doing to replace the 5209 Sport Pilot CFI's who had dropped or are going to be lost on 01/31/08. I still don't think I got an answer.

But, let's try this; in the Dec. '07 EAA mag. their is an article about the FAA formed Aviation Rulesmaking Committe (ARC) in '07 and having appointed persons to the committe. This committee, as I understand the article, is to address specific concerns relating to the 51% rule on kits of "all fast built aircraft". They (FAA) indicated a new policy was anticipated in early '08.

I don't recall the subject being address in recent PRA publications or on this site. But, I'm sure I missed something. Does anyone know if rotor/gyros are included and does the PRA have representation on this committe. I don't mean, ie. the genetic definition of "aircraft" being the all inclusive factor.

Thank you, eddie

Hi Eddie,

I was in an FAA meeting at AirVenture this year, the ARAC 51% rule came up. I have mentioned it several times here on the forum. The FAA chooses who they want on their committees.

If the FAA had requested a gyro representative, would you have gone for us? (assuming you are a current PRA member) Would you expect a board member to take a week or two off work and fly to Washington or OKC to attend the committee meetings and represent us?

The EAA has full time, well paid representatives to lobby the FAA. We don't.

Several years ago, just as Sport Pilot was becoming a reality, I attended an FAA meeting in Appleton, Wisconsin. The topic was; who will run the new Sport Pilot / Light Sport Aircraft program. The FAA presenters said they preferred the sanctioning bodies run the program, the EAA, USUA, ASC and they even suggested the PRA for rotorcraft, and then added that he thought the "PRA wasn't a big enough group to handle it". I was shocked to hear the FAA even knew we existed.

I will start a thread regarding the ARAC right now, look for it.

scott heger

01-02-2008, 12:20 AM

Tom,

I do appreciate everything you have done to promote the sport, and respect your input.

I have said before, that the airport has drained alot of funds from the PRA organization, how can you disagree with this? Where did the money come for repaving the runway(I think the amount was $65,000)? Yep, right out of the PRA general fund. I think "The" airport for the PRA should have been put into more of a regional program to financially support a group of fly-ins, and not fireworks shows at Mentone. I have attended both Mentone once and Oshkosh twice as a spectator. What is offered in terms of product,education,entertainment, at Oshkosh is not even remotely comparible to Mentone, lets face it.

Don't you find it interesting that a gyro manufacturer would pay more to display at Oshkosh, and not even show up at Mentone this year? Because thats probably where the 500,000 potential customers are going to see his product over 10 days.

When I came to Mentone as a newbie, my biggest memory was some guy yelling at me because he thought I had skipped paying (the five bucks?) to get in the gate(which I had previously paid at the office). Maybe that was the friendly atmosphere that is referred to at Mentone. At that time I came, no mention was made of the events for the day at Mentone when paying, where to go, what I should see, etc. Just a few people sitting in the shade, and not much flying(it was a Friday). I got the feeling if you was not a pilot flying at the event, no one gave a sh*t; just a "clicky" group of folks enjoying themselves, glad that others would agree to support the cost so that only a one or two percent of the entire PRA membership would ever use. This is not how you get people interested in the sport. Not after spending several days to get Mentone, airline tickets, car rental and hotel. If you have been to Oshkosh,you know thats not the way it works, always something to see or learn about.

Now that being said, the airport has turned out to be a wonderful investment, just like most real estate. The problem is that as the value has gone up, a loan should have been made to repay the PRA general fund that was previously taken out of it. That the PRA is so proud the airport is going to be paid off soon, but the PRA itself has no money, and does not own the airport, just pays rent to be there. The airport on the other hand is worth more than $600,000, and that is a very conservative tax assessment basis figure. Here is the county's records at the bottom of the page. Can't you see that as the airport , which is not controlled by the PRA, has become worth more and richer ,the PRA's funds, and quality of services provided have continued to dwindle. How much money does PRA contribute to regional events? What if one percent of the PRA showed up at El Mirage,B-days or the Northwest regional fly-in. Is the PRA willing to commit funds like it did to Mentone? Of course not. That is why you should not be shocked that you don't get a huge amount of money or support out of the West Coast. PRA does not put very much effort in to get members out here. I don't think EAA gives a darn about gyros, but their efforts to support experimental aviation ,as a whole, I believe is much more effective.

Tom,I don't expect you to agree, just see where some of the discontent comes from. By the way, every year when I attend El Mirage, I always contribute more than a years PRA membership fees to Chapter 1 for their effort to put on the fly-in( No they don't send me magazines, and neither did the PRA when I was a member). Chapter 1 throws the dirt and dust in for free, provide a six mile long by three mile wide runway; and it is one of my favorite weekends of the year to go fly and beat the air into submission. Do you think if this event was supported by the national PRA organization that you could get more than 50 or 100 people to show up to an event on the border of Los Angeles County? You get 10 times that amount of people showing up to a book signing in LA!

Gary in Oregon, I agree with all your comments.

Parcel ID: 015-024-002.AAA
Section Plat: 000.000
Routing Number: 015-024-002.AAA
Neighborhood: 1504000
Property Address: 12296 W 600 S
MENTONE, 46539
Property Owner: PRA MENTONE INC
PO BOX 68
MENTONE , IN 46539
Legal Description: 15-24-2.AAA
PT S3/4 E1/2 MENTONE AIRPORT
10-31-4 53.73 A PER CALC
Acreage: 53.730
Property Class: Exempt: Other structures

Assessment Year 03/01/2001 03/01/2002 03/01/2003 03/01/2005 03/01/2006
Reason for Change 100pct AV 4Y Reval NC Combine
VALUATION Land $41,400.00 $131,600.00 $131,600.00 $257,100.00 $261,800.00
True Tax Value Improvements $173,900.00 $302,500.00 $305,800.00 $335,300.00 $341,900.00
Total $215,300.00 $434,100.00 $437,400.00 $592,400.00 $603,700.00
VALUATION Land $41,400.00 $131,600.00 $131,600.00 $257,100.00 $261,800.00
Assessed Value Improvements $173,900.00 $302,500.00 $305,800.00 $335,300.00 $341,900.00
Total $215,300.00 $434,100.00 $437,400.00 $592,400.00 $603,700.00

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

GyroDoug

01-02-2008, 07:49 AM

That the PRA is so proud the airport is going to be paid off soon, but the PRA itself has no money, and does not own the airport, just pays rent to be there. Can't you see that as the airport , which is not controlled by the PRA, has become worth more and richer ,the PRA's funds, and quality of services provided have continued to dwindle.

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

Scott,

I want to start off by saying I was at El Mirage this last year and saw you fly Tina's Gyro. I was very impressed with your flying skills and your own aircraft as well. Our organization (the PRA) could use another 1,000 people just like you. I hope you are a member or will become a member as I believe we need to do everything we can to promote Gyro flight or all of us who love and fly Gyros will see our freedoms erode in this area. While the PRA may be far from perfect, and is obviously not even in the same universe as the EAA, it is still the absolute best organization that exists (at least in this country) to help promote and further the cause of Gyro flight.

I do however, question your information or understanding of the situation with the airport at Mentone. If the PRA doesn't own the airport, who do you think does? You also say it is not controlled by the PRA. Who do you think is controlling it? I am just curious as you are describing a situation that is vastly different than my understanding of the current situation. I am not asking this to be arguementative, but would like to understand your point of view on this matter.

Geographically, I am much closer to you on the west coast than I am to Mentone and I will never see any use of that airport other than to attend a National Convention, however I see great value in owning this airport. Being located near the center of the country and close to Oshkosh makes a lot of sense to me. While I want to see bigger, full color magazines and full color professionally printed promotional flyers and other forms of support given to local chapters to help us each grow the interest in Gyro flight in our own areas, that can only come if we (the local chapter members) build our own chapters and encourage everyone to join the national organization. It is because the numbers have dwindled (because of infighting) that the PRA's services have diminished. It is only through growing numbers of national members that we will ever generate the money to have those kinds of benefits. We can not complain that "they" are not doing enough for us because the "they" are us. The increase in members can only come from us. The articles in the Magazine can only come from us. The "everything we are looking for" has to start with us.

I have seen the independent and strong personalities that tend to make up the world of Gyro Pilots, clash and fight with one another, be rude and insensitive to new people interested in our sport, and basically have an attitude of if you don't like the way I do things you can go take a hike. But if we are going to survive as a sport, we have got to attract new people to this sport. We have got to learn to get along with one another. We are going to have to become bigger than ourselves and give more than we take. But I believe we can do that. There are a small handful of people who already do that. We just need more of us "the common people" to step up to the plate and start to give and do more. I am seeing interest in Gyro flight grow here in Utah. It's not as fast as I would like but as long as we don't get discouraged and quit trying it will continue to grow. We can someday have an organization that will be able to do things more like EAA can now. But it will take each of us being willing to make it happen. We can't sit back and expect someone else to do it for us.

Gyro Doug

gyroplanes

01-02-2008, 08:36 AM

Scott,
The PRA spent a good portion of it's life headquartered in California, several PRA conventions were held in Cali as well. The membership moved it (and bought the airport through it's elected directors)

The PRA is not a giant, impenetrable force like the EAA. You and I can and will make a difference in the PRA, including where it is based and what it owns, but you have to give something, not just expect the PRA to be everything you want it to be.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. Quitting the PRA fixes nothing, contributing does. Trust me, I know.

The airport has been paid off for quite some time now. The airport was never the financial drain you claim it was.

I don't believe the PRA ever actually paid for a fireworks show, even the insurance for same, was donated.

If you want to see the actual value of our own airport, one example is in the convention profits. The PRA has lost several thousands of dollars on at least one convention. It's always a gamble at a new location.

We have always turned a profit at a Mentone convention, often a quite substantial one.

Also, the PRA owns and controls the Mentone airport.

barnstorm2

01-02-2008, 11:00 AM

The problems that happened with the ROC airport should be evidence enough for anyone that purchasing the Mentone Airport for the PRA was a wise and beneficial decision.

Lets see... we could rent an office and have nothing of our own or put out the same money and OWN an office with an AIRPORT we can't get kicked out off....

no brain-er.

We need a rotorcraft www.snopes.org lots of these things that have been debunked still come up.

If you don't like it become a PRA member, volunteer to do some work and make a difference and help make the PRA what you want it to be. The PRA is a volunteer org with ELECTED officials. Bellyaching after the fact does not achieve anything positive I can see. Poor office management has done more to hurt the PRA membership and finances then anything else I have seen. Now we have Jennifer running a tight effiecient ship, membership is rising, we are starting to have some color in some issues again... Things are on the UP.

Last years convention was the best in a decade or more.

If you want to make things better buy a PRA membership for a newbie or a friend.

.

Heron

01-02-2008, 03:23 PM

You guys are precious!!!!
Join the damn thing and make it grow so you can be proud of it and get benefits.
It is not bigger because of you!
And you all members be proud of it and tell this guys to shut up and ride in to the sunset.
Bunch of morons!!!!
Whatever happened to America??
Pissed off Heron

fiveboy

01-02-2008, 05:54 PM

I might as well have a kick at this can. :blabla:

I go to many TV industry annual events. There are always free samples of industry magazines to pick up. Are there free PRA magazines at Oshkosh and elsewhere for the GA to get acquainted with Gyros? Are there any promotional materials of any kind anywhere anytime - on a consistent basis?

My guess is the answer is no and for the same reasons I heard when I asked about promoting Gyros in another thread - there is no money.

There is no such thing as a second first impression. A few folks have commented about the magazine being black and white and thin. There is more of a problem - its not even good black and white. It is more like grey and white and it looks very cheap and unexciting (I told you I would kick at this can). Some of the articles are well.... underwhelming. Magazines have to be sexy for people to look forward to reading them... especially important of its someone who is being exposed for the first time.

I am proud to be part of this squabbling dysfunctional bickering family. I have contributed an article and photos to the magazine as well as promoted gyros to a wider audience - but until this is done in a systematic, classy and thought out way.... we will continue be the crazy cousin of GA that is made up of whacko yahoos, farmers and suicide pact imbeciles to GA and the public.

There are some here who make videos and sell them to the members - how about the PRA buys a bunch (at cost) and makes them available to the public at events like Oshkosh? I got into this when I saw a profile of Commander Wallis - the guy just looked like he was having too much fun... I had to try a ride. The hook was set.

I think we should have higher dues - get a small mortgage on the airport and plow that money into making gyros well known well thought of and well... known and admired as a sport and way to fly.

As for the Oregonian who started this by asking whats the point - he has raised the central issue... that being why isnt the point more obvious to everyone!?

Its time to get creative, brain storm and save this thing before we give it away. We need a committee that really formulates a plan and then deploys and executes it. That plan has to serve our sustainability. I dont see one anywhere.

If you can fault my logic :flame: me all you want. If you cant then lets roll up our sleeves and make this a true destination avocation - rather than a marginal joke.

Fiveboy

fiveboy

01-02-2008, 05:55 PM

You guys are precious!!!!
Bunch of morons!!!!
Whatever happened to America??
Pissed off Heron

Oh and that too!
Heron your'e cool.

Fiveboy

Timchick

01-02-2008, 06:30 PM

.........There are some here who make videos and sell them to the members - how about the PRA buys a bunch (at cost) and makes them available to the public at events like Oshkosh? .........

Fiveboy

I put together a Demo DVD and we've given away several hundred copies at Bensen Days, Mentone and some other flying events. The DVDs sent to Mentone this year arrived late. That was my fault for not using the correct shipping to ensure they'd get there in time. I took the Post Office's word they'd be there in time and they weren't. I now know better. The PRA has copies for the chapters to use at fly-ins. If they run out I send more. People are free to burn copies of them to pass out. If you go to one of the fly-ins and already have one of these DVDs take another one to hand out to a friend or prospective gyro owner.

fiveboy

01-02-2008, 07:00 PM

I put together a Demo DVD and we've given away several hundred copies at Bensen Days, Mentone and some other flying events.....

Please know that my comment was not meant as a sniper attack. I didnt know about your efforts.... but what you contribute (or attempted to) is exactly what we need. There needs to be a dedicated effort based on a plan to get this whole thing we love - marketed! Branded. Made high profile.

So thanks Timchick, thats what I am talking about. Again I say - if a member of the gyro community doesnt know why PRA is to be supported, then how could anyone else!?

Fiveboy

scott heger

01-02-2008, 08:55 PM

Tom,I dont want anything but good to happen to the PRA, I am not bashing the organization or people that have run it past, or present. I have offered in the past ,a free commercial office space for the PRA here in California. We both know that is not going to happen, but the offer still stands. So no lectures about being unwilling to give beyond what most do.

The PRA has some great members, the people always make the difference, but they all have their own lives to live as well. Part time staff is part time effort. The membership is defiinitely getting older(me included). This follows the trend in GA. Very few younger people seem to attend, or are interested in gyros. Since my knowlegde of PRA is only 7 years long, can you tell me if the membership was younger as a group 20 years ago?

You said the PRA owns the airport. Then why does the public records says it belong to PRA MENTONE INC? That is not the same as the PRA, correct? The airport has its own board of directors, right? Everyone aggreed last year that they are two separate organizations, has something changed recently? Was I wrong stating that over $50,000 in PRA general funds were used to pave Mentone? No one has ever disputed that such a expenditure was done. I call that a financial drain. Glad to hear that the airport has been paid off. Maybe PRA MENTONE INC, could make a big healthy donation to PRA since it has tripled in value over the last five years according to the published tax records.

My biggest point was that maybe if the regional events were better supported by the national organization, more local support may be generated. The suggestion above is that any "tire kicker" that makes the effort to show up to a regional fly-in event should be rewarded by having magazines and other pamphlets free of charge about gyros to take home and start dreaming about. Being a licensed gyro pilot is a very hard thing to do, compared to most other GA activities.
I understand that while getting strapped in and prepped to fly,the last thing I want to do is answer a bunch of questions from the the uninformed asking me is it true if "those gyros" are death traps. I knew better when I attended Mentone (I learned to fly fixed wing when I was 13 years old) but it sure seemed like not many people wanted to answer any question I had. However catch me at my hanger after a flight, and I always try to go out of my way to answer any and all questions that people may ask and promote the sport as best as possible.

Gyro Doug, thanks for your kind words. I really enjoyed flying Tina's gyro, and only wished circumstances would have allowed me to stay longer and enjoy the weekend more fully.

Tim Chick,let me know if you are ever going to make it out here to see some California sun?

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

Heron

01-03-2008, 04:02 AM

I never seen lack of chemistry like in our group, be that a chapter or PRA.
There are great guys all over the place and some very hard working volunteers.
But some small measures that needs an eye for the problem are not taken and that makes us look small, we are not!
I always said, lets buy some more airports or at least join venture with some.
I think Immokalee would be a great place to start, down south, all year flying weather, lots of airplanes around looking for hangars, part of the airport is already turned in to entertainment (drag racing) and a huge area around to become lots for new housing projects.
It is gyro friendly and has some commercial aviation related business.
It needs more income to justify its presence there, you know the money people are drooling all over it.
Now our magazine use to be better and it will be again when the powers in charge agree that some of the measures proposed can and need to be adopted. (now comes the disclaimer people)
We don´t have a good lab, the manufacturers are not bundled up to help, it is basically individual help.
Instructors association or department and training programs (professional here and get some mula before starting)
You know, our table is missing a leg and the others are wobling.
Money . . .your money . . .our money . . .investors money . . . we need some money!
It is not perfect but it is what we have and made to be . . .by our puny efforts! (sorry hard workers, you rock)
The PRA site sucks big! sorry administrator
Our forum can provide materials galore for the magazine.
There are more people knowledgeable today than 5 years ago when I joined.
Where are the stats? new gyros, new pilots, new manufacturers, etc
It needs people to get the goods out!
Our machines have become very respectable aircraft and our Forum provides the spotlight to shine on them and find the quircks and advantages.
Some people blabber? (I do) so fricking what? your wanna leave? quitter, looser . . .coward!
Go find a reaching hand and grab it not letting go untill the movement has strenght on its own.
Then you will feel the pleasure of achievement . . .
If we don´t make it . . .it is a worthy cause and for warriors the only victory is the fight, not the results.
Hello new PRA, where the hell are you?
Heron

Brent Drake

01-03-2008, 05:38 AM

Scott, The airport is owned by a different company for security reasons. If someone is hurt and sues the PRA for damages, they cannot touch the valuable asset and equity in the airport or vise-verse. This way no one company is completely ruined by a lawsuit. It was a very smart move.
Just like most instructors gyro's are a LLC so the individual who instructs in a gyro and hits a house will sue the gyro compnay who owns it and not hurt the pilot's financial pocket as bad.

scott heger

01-05-2008, 08:56 AM

Brent, I understand the logic. But the dumbest law student will tell you that if the organizations are truely linked, it is not going to protect either one from getting sued and paying. However is they are truely seperate organizations that are not linked and are separate and protected , then your statement above is incorrect.

No matter what, the fact remain PRA Mentone Inc, has the assets to assist PRA with money ,which is apparently lacking funds . PRA has given a substantial amount of money in the past to enhance the airport, it should be payback time now that funds are short. One charity organization can contribute to another charity organization. I'm sure any friendly local bank would float a loan to a debt free property. It is not like the value is going to decline, it has tripled in value just in the past five years according to the tax records. What good does it do to watch the value rise, and not derive some of this windfall for the current members? What good is a million dollar airport going to be to a broke PRA that offers very little in service nationwide that does hardly any promotion to attract new blood. This is not hard. There is several reasons that PRA membership has declined, but many people have chosen to vote with their check books, ie not writing one to the PRA. Letting an organization coast has not worked well in this case, just look at the decline in membership. Has EAA suffered such a large percentage in decline? No they aggresively promote sport aviation. I know the new BOD are good people and want to change things for the better, but bold steps (and funds to to it) need to be taken. The airport is a cash cow that needs to be milked a little.

Frankly, even if the airport was up to its neck in debt, then that is just so much less some plaintiff could get in a suit, the bank loan would have first priority. So having a debt free asset, like it stands now, to go after makes a much better target for a lawsuit for any attorney.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

Heron

01-05-2008, 11:04 AM

Scott is right!
We need more professional people involved and making money.
That is the needed fuel to creat entertainment to attrackt more members.
Branch out is good. Another airport too!
Coordinate a training program is not that difficult.
Heron

Dean_Dolph

01-08-2008, 12:45 PM

Without going back and surveying every post in this thread I'm going to say that this is a preaching to the choir exercise. Even in the posts where there is negativity expressed, there are some positives about the PRA.

So, what to do, what to do?!!

Let’s start by reminding ourselves that the PRA is 'us' as has been stated in this thread and at various other times. This means that the base and the strength of the PRA is us, the individual member. We are scattered all over the world and as such have a difficult time trying to visualize the fact that anything we do locally can impact the organization.

But the fact is that those local actions are what are going to impact the PRA the most. The governing body of the PRA is going to be the most visible but it is going to us that make the most impact. We are the ones that are going to carry the load for the organization. We are going to be the ones that present and represent the PRA to the public.

The direction need not come down from on high; we can take action on our own to strengthen the organization in various ways. We can start by recruiting members which for years to come will provide the money needed to finance the magazine which is the largest drain on the PRA coffer. I suspect we would need to get in the neighborhood of 5K members before there would be any significant money left over to carry out PRA projects. I believe 2500, or there about, members was the quoted number needed to keep the magazine in full color and at a certain number of issues per year.

All chapters were provided with PRA brochures, in 2007, from one of our more passionate members. I hope the chapters are finding a way to get these brochures in the hands of those that can do the PRA the most good. These brochures did not come cheap and we should not expect the individual that made them up to keep on footing the bill or to provide them to individuals. But at least, for the moment, we have a professionally created brochure.

Gary Kaminski and Tim O'Connor both created brochures that are available for local promotion and, in their way, are just as valuable as the professional one. These brochures can be used by individuals and don't require, or need, a chapter to distribute them. Just find a venue where you can display or hand them out.

The one problem I've found with these brochures is that they are in PDF format and can't be modified for local needs unless you have a way to work in that format. Or, have a PDF conversion program to make the modifications. But that can always be addressed if you really have the desire to use them.

Tim Chick has expressed a desire to see his DVDs circulated and distributed so this is another great tool.

So, rather than set here at our keyboard and tell ourselves, and fellow thread posters, what is needed and what should be done, let's get up and go do something to promote the PRA!

John, you can see that another benefit to belonging to the PRA is that it gives the individual rotorcraft enthusiast a structure and organization to promote his/her enthusiasm to others. While Rotary Forums is not an official PRA site, it, and specifically the PRA threads, does provide means to facilitate PRA matters and a PRA member has done his part to help PRA promotion. Thank you, (again!) Todd!