Unfamiliar Turf accident

[RICK MARTIN]

Hey guys,

Yesterday I moved my new machine to my rented hangar at Airport Manatee. I did my first high speed taxi run down the strip (quite a bit more shaggy and bumpy than Bo's beautiful strip). As I was taxiing back, I chose a path off the runway but parallel to it (I don't have my radio cable yet). In my uneducated opinion this area was parallel to and close enough (100 ft.) to the runway to be considered a taxiway. Even though the grass was long (about 12 inches) it was a lot smoother than the strip. Not wanting to waste the trip back, I throttled up a bit. All of a sudden I was confronted with a 2 ft deep swale perpendicular to my direction of travel (I think I didn't see is soon enough because the grass was so high). You can picture the rest. The front end hit the bottom of the ditch, the fork snapped and the machine tumbled forward. I lost the blades, prop, fork, the left strut and maybe the tail. After initial inspection, the frame still seems nice and straight, the head seems alright and I believe the motor is fine. But obviously a more thorough inspection and some testing is in order.
I guess you can add me to the list of people who suffer the consequences of assumption. The nice guy who had been watching me and came running to my rescue simply said "Gee, I meant to tell you about that ditch." I'll be suggesting to the airport management that they mark the ditches (there are several others in close proximity to the strip).

The one comforting thought is that I wasn't doing something stupid like trying to progress too quickly and fly before I'm ready. But I WAS doing something stupid like running too fast on unfamiliar turf. Just another in a long list of lessons learned.

I'd post a picture, but I'm having trouble getting the pixel requirements correct.

I've already started re-building.

- Rick

[Chuck Irby]

Rick, I am really sorry for your loss.

[gyropilot]

Wishing you a speedy and safe rebuild Rick... just make sure you do everything right.

Most of us have been there and know what that feels like.

Hang in there!

John L.

[Caribean_gyro]

RECOMENDATION. TAXI AS FAST AS you can walk. I have make the entrance to my hangar also due to several holes right off the run way. but even showing where to go in they like to go thru the holes.

You are ok and that is what counts. Money fix every thing

ChuckP

[barnstorm2]

Rick,

Sorry to hear about the damage. :(

I was a little luckier. Last month I was unable to gain what I felt was enough altitude to cross the powerlines at the end of a local grass strip. :eek: ( hot day, tall grass, bumpy runway (moles?) I was about 10 feet higher then the lines and I had good airspeed but it was a day with strong wind gusts and I did not want to get pushed down into the lines. :eek:

I decided to abort the takeoff. Not an easy decision because I was leaving a chapter meeting and now I was going to be embarrassed. :mad: However, I decided embarrassed was better than fried.

I made a left hand turn in an attempt to make another shot at leaving once I had some altitude. This was no good as the tree line around the 'airport' forced me to make such a tight turn that I was bleeding off altitude.

As I came around for the second try I was now lower than the first run and about even altitude with the power lines.

My choices were now: a. Another tight right-hand turn down into a tall-grass field or B. A left turn into houses.

I took a. and spiraled down into the tall grass field flaring into a nice soft landing :)

As I taxied back to the grass strip I did the same thing you did. I hit a ditch on the side of the runway that I missed because the tall grass hid it and I was going fast and thinking more about how embarrassed I was.

I only bent the little alum plates that my axel tubes connect to so it was not big deal ($10, 10 min ).

Two more shots down the grass strip and still my little AC447 would not climb enough for me to make it out. I have several grass strips I fly in and out of most weekends but they tend to have short grass more room and no bumps!

I went back early am the next morning when the air was cool and she flew right out with ease.

The biggest damage was to my ego.

Most of the chapter members were supportive and told me that I made the right decision to abort if I did not feel good with the departure over the power lines.

However, one guy came up to me and said I “should not have turned down wind”! What?? I don’t think he got my situation as upwind was a close tall line of trees that I was below the tops of. That kinda ticked me off. :mad: In fact I did turn up wind and only circled back because the trees upwind were even taller than the powerlines.

I hope your rotorhead and other parts turn out OK.

[Doug Riley]

Rick: You're in good company. This type of accident is so common that it probably keeps the price of blades down (there are ecomonies in volume production!). MOST of the blade makers are kind enough not to gloat when you call them for replacements.

If the blades were turning at more than hand-start speed, you'll probably need to replace the 1/2" spindle bolt. They often bend in blade strikes. It's wise to replace the bearing and the 3/8" pivot bolts and teeter bolt at the same time. These items are inexpensive and obviously critical to continued good health.

Good luck.

[Screw]

Screw-In

Very sorry to hear of this Rick. I hope you get airborne soon.

Screw-Out

[MikeBoyette]

Rick,
I work in the Wimauma and Ruskin area I got a call yesterday from one of the guys I work with telling me that a gyro had crashed. He hangars his trike there and had heard the story from the airport manger. I asked who it was they did not know. I am glad to hear you are OK. What kind of gyro do you have?

[Hognose]

Rick -- glad you're OK. Doug is giving you good advice. Even the most expensive fasteners are relatively cheap to replace. Most fasteners can't take loading in any axis they weren't designed to, at least not very well. And the very process of installing a bolt deforms the bolt (slightly, but measurably). Use 'em once and toss 'em, you will live to spoil your grandkids.

Mike -- from Rick's profile he has a Gyrobee. I guess we could say most of a Gyrobee. :(

cheers

-=K=-

[RICK MARTIN]

Rick,
I work in the Wimauma and Ruskin area I got a call yesterday from one of the guys I work with telling me that a gyro had crashed. He hangars his trike there and had heard the story from the airport manger. I asked who it was they did not know. I am glad to hear you are OK. What kind of gyro do you have?

Mike,

Thanks for your concern. I have a gyrobee.

- Rick Martin

[RICK MARTIN]

Kevin,

Thanks for the advice. Rest assured I wil take it.

- Rick

[RICK MARTIN]

Doug,

Thanks! That makes me feel a little better. And thanks for the good advice. Rest assured I will take it.

- Rick

[RICK MARTIN]

I hope these pictures come through alright.

#1: Bo Segnious last Saturday testing my Bee.
#2: The "after" shot

[RICK MARTIN]

#1: Last Saturday while Bo Seignious was testing my Bee
#2: The "after" shot

[Vance]

Hi Rick, I admire your atitude. You are not spending a lot of time feeling sorry for yourself, instead you are working on fixing the machine and helping others to not have the same experiance. It was a beauitful machine and will be again soon because of who you are. Thank you, Vance

[nsheryka]

I am currently begining building my own gyrobee, and i am very sorry to hear about your accident. Glad you were not injured, good luck with all the repairs.

[RICK MARTIN]

Thanks for your kind thoughts.

- Rick

[MikeBoyette]

Hey Rick,
Good luck getting her back in the air. Since you seem to be in the need of them I happen to know of a local supplier of rotor blades. Just kidding

[quadrirotor]

RICK you are rich, in the process you manage to transmute a wooden prop in an Ivoprop! :D

[Aussie_Paul]

"Bugger" as us Aussies say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aussie Paul.

[GyroRon]

Rick now I remember you. You came to Bensen days with this machine and we talked, I had brought down my friend barry red Gyrobee and my ultralight airplane. Dam shame on what happened to your machine, I know you took a long time putting it together and did a very classy job building it. Hope you get her fixed soon and get back in the air.

[scott heger]

Can I shorten up the story a little:
Boy this grass is tall..... hmmmm...oh ...Sh*t....thump.....wack..wack..wack..wack....cru nch...bang .. pow.. Help me find my wallet, I need it real soon.


Glad to see you are ok, your experience will hopefully help others not suffer the same fate, or worse. Good luck on your rebuild!!!

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca SportCopter N86SH

[Hognose]

"Bugger" as us Aussies say!

Paul, (and Birdy, Tim, any other Down-Underners on the board), there was a Toyota truck ad built around that term. The farmer was using the truck and landed in a bunch of comical situations because the truck was too powerful.

Now, here's the funny bit, where I (a Yank that doesn't even own a TV) learn about the ad. I was in a forward operating base during the war in Afghanistan and somebody had put a bunch of funny videos, including that, on one of the computers in the operations room. I never got tired of watching that silly ad. The bit at the end with the dog is priceless.

Funny thing is, we had a fleet of Toyota pick-up trucks, and they were great. We had a mix of left and right hand drive ones. When I went downrange I never looked at one of those trucks without thinking, "Bugger!"

cheers

-=K=-

[RICK MARTIN]

Mike,
Thanks for the offer but I already ordered a new set of Brocks. Maybe one day I'll own a pair of the famous Boyette blades. Sometimes it seems like everyone else does.

[RICK MARTIN]

I'm driving my 6th Toyota truck, but I'll never think of it the same way now.

[RICK MARTIN]

Scott,

Yea, I tend to be a little long winded sometimes. I'd say you summed it up pretty well.
Thanks for your support.

[RICK MARTIN]

Andre,

I wish I WAS rich. Actually, I'm a vetran (27 years) school teacher still working two jobs.

You are pretty observant. I did change props the day of the adccident. The 60-38 wooden Tennessee never did allow me to generate more than 5800 rpm even though Bo and I both got it off the ground that way.

I'm surprised you didn't tease me about the "handle bars". It does bother my back a little when I bend over to steer.

[RICK MARTIN]

Ron,

You're correct. We did talk at Bensen Days. And yes, it took me two years to build my machine. I'm very careful, but everything takes me about twice as long as a normal person.

I enjoyed talking to you and I did get to see Barry's Bee up close. I was VERY impressed.

Thanks again for your support.

[GyroRon]

just wondering, were the Brock blades cheaper? Why use Brock Blades?

[MikeBoyette]

Hey Rick,
If price were the reason the cost of shipping from California would probably make the difference. You could just come get them with your Toyota truck were only about 20 min from Bradenton. just yankin your chain Rick. Go with what you know. On a different note who is your instructor?

[RICK MARTIN]

Ron,
I chose Brock Blades because at the time of purchase (about 18 months ago), Ralph Taggart reccomended them as a lighter, but well proven alternative to the Rotordynes on his prototype.
Mike,
I came up to RFD about two years ago looking for parts and advice. But when Ernie found out I was building a Gyrobee, I left feeling like a second class citizen. Maybe I took it the wrong way, but the guy who was with me felt the same way.

Mike,
Don't misunderstand me. I know your blades are quality and I believe ralph has now "approved" the new design as acceptable on the Gyrobee. I'm just trying to keep to my original plan.

[MikeBoyette]

Rick,
No problem I understand. I agree my Dad can be a little abrasive at times. The one thing you can count on it his honest opinion. Obviously he is in business to promote his products and sometimes can be a little less patient than he should be. He considers his time very valuable and does not like to use it unwisley. This is especially true if the effort does not add to his business. I hope to see you either at North Mannatee or at a Sunstate flyin soon.

[RICK MARTIN]

Mike,

Thanks for your understanding and support. I'll look forward to seeing you. I estimate about another 4 weeks.

- Rick

[GyroRon]

I wouldn't waste my money on Brock blades. Dragon Wings are most likely cheaper to begin with, And as Mike said you can probably save another hundred or more by not needing shipping as you do with the Brocks, and you will get much higher performance out of your machine.

John Stevens was having serious problems with his Vw powered KB-2 gyro with the standard brock blades and on a hot summer day I am rather sure he wouldn't be able to fly it at all with the brocks - he used and was having problems with climb out and was having to run at wide open throttle full time and this was in the cooler months of late winter early spring.... - Anyway he switched to Dragon wings and he says the difference is night and day. No longer a problem to climb out and he is able to throttle back a good bit and still cruise, and this is now in the the hot months of summer....

Ernie...... Well He doesn't like some designs and I think the gyrobee is one of them. He is a person like anyone else and is allowed to have his opinions and like MYself he doesn't hesitate to let you know what he thinks. He can certainly come off as a A-hole and I am sure there are times he deserves to be considered as such, but 99 percent of the time it is just Ernie being Ernie. Once you get to know him you see he is a nice guy, a honest guy, and very knowledgeable and helpful. Heck I remember back at my first year at ROC he spent a good amount of time trying to help me get my Sportcopter rotorblades flying smooth again after I got them all out of wack doing adjustments to them when I didn't know what I was doing - and my point is Ernie didn't know me at the time and he is not a fan of sportcopter blades, but yet he still took time to help.

If you go to any gyro fly in you always see a crowd under Ernies tent and it isn't cause everyone there flys dominators. Ernie is a great guy and always has a interesting story to tell. I say give him another shot!

[Chuck Irby]

Rick, I totally agree with Ron. I believe once you get to know Ernie, you'll see that he will help you more than most anyone in the business. He has saved me quite a bit of money by telling me the truth, on several occasions, about what I needed, and what I didn't need. In my opinion, if you flew a set of he Dragon Wing blades, you would never wan't to fly any other's on your machine.

[RICK MARTIN]

Ron & chuck,

Thanks for the input. I'll look into it today.

[Heron]

DW's rock and Ernie rocks too!
I can't imagine someone not liking Ernie and the whole family, they are first grade people!
Heron

[Chuck Irby]

Well, actually when you think about the best part of that family, Heron, Connie is at the top of the list. In Ernie's absence, not long ago, she sure got my butt out of the sling. Thank you Connie, you're the greatest.

[MikeBoyette]

Thanks Chuck,
I just Know it's cause I'm not as pretty. Hey have you ever got a chance to fly those old style DW's yet? The ones you bought at BD's

[Chuck Irby]

Hello Mike,

No, they're still in the box and as dirty as they were when I bought them. I've been told that there isn't much difference in the way the old ones fly as compared to the new style.

It's good to hear from you, Mike. Make sure Connie gets the message in my post prior to this one. I appreciate you all.

PS, Mike, I think you're pretty! :D

[GyroRon]

Watch out Mike.

[gyroblackwell]

Rick, Glad you are O.K. I lived in Tarpon springs, and flew my flightstar into manatee more then once. Someone was nice enough to let me know I should back taxi , and avoid the skirts of this grass strip. Those rain-gutters they dug into the edges are a snake in the grass just waiting to bite!

Hang in there, and tell Bo hi from Tim Blackwell!

[RICK MARTIN]

Thanks Tim,

Even though there's no excuse for not scoping things out myself ahead of time, it does make me feel a little less ignorant.

[scottessex]

Hey Chuck, you have a set of dusty old dragon wings?

Hmm.....

How old? for sale?

[GyroRon]

Rick I read somewhere else you went to see Ernie today... So did you order a set of Dragon wings?

[RICK MARTIN]

Ron,
Your info is correct. I have a shiny new set of 24's. What does Barry's machine use?

[GyroRon]

A shiney new set of 24 foot sportcopter blades. We needed a set of easily hand startable blades since Barry has no pre rotator. If he did there would be dragon wings on there.

[MikeBoyette]

Rick,
I am glad to see you took our advice. I think you will be rather impressed. I hope your rebuild goes fast. :)

[RICK MARTIN]

Mike,
Thanks. It's going great so far. I sent my Brock head back to Brock to have it fully checked out (I definitely bent the main bearing bolt). And I gave my tail group to a guy who makes surfboards so that things will happen faster this time. This leaves me free to handle the other metal work that I can do more easily. The only other major thing left to do is check the output shaft to see if it is still true. I estimate about three more weeks.

[GyroRon]

Were the Dragon wings much cheaper or were they more expensive than the Brocks?

[RICK MARTIN]

The Brock breakdown:
new 10' blades $1395.00 (no bar,) which would have been about 385.00
shipping $170.00

Dragon wings:
new 11'-6" blades and 1' bar $1550.00
no shipping because I picked them up

[Udi]

The DWs are much more efficient that the Brock Blades. Why did you buy longer ones? What is your gross weight? John Landry's "heavy" Bee is flying just fine with a set of 23 ft DWs. Longer blades would give you more lift at lower airspeed, but you would bob more in unstable air. A disc loading of less than one is not recommended!

Udi

[RICK MARTIN]

Udi,
My Brock's were also a 24' disk (4 ft. bar). My machine is an ultra light, I weigh 210 and live in south Florida. Ernie and I discussed this and he had a little lift problem with a set of 23's the previous day so suggested the 24's. He calculated the loading and it was a little over 1.0. What do you think?

[Udi]

Rick - who am I to contradict the big, larger than life, EB. :o Seriously. I wish I had one percent of Ernie's experience.

The calculation is simple. Calculate your gross weight. If your Bee weighs 254 lbs, 30 lbs fuel, 210 lbs of meat gives a gross weight of 494 lbs.

Your rotor disc area is pi*r*squared. 3.14*(12^2)=452 square ft.

The disc loading equals gross weight divided by the disc area: 494/452=1.1 lb/sqft

With an empty gas tank your disc loading goes down to about 1.

I think 1.1 is a good disc loading for a marginally powered Bee. Of course Ernie is right! :D

Udi

[MikeBoyette]

Hey Rick,
Were you treated any better this time? I spoke to Dad yesterday and he was not aware that he was such a hot topic in this thread. He said he had not read this thread at the time of your visit and subsequent purchase. So how you were treated was exactly like he treats all of his customers. Just wanted to see if it went any better.
I was also wondering if you have an instructor locally? If you do not. I would suggest Dave Seace. He teaches in his tandem Dominator and is a BFI. He also happens to live right next door to my father. He is a very good instructor and teaches weekends at Wachula.

[RICK MARTIN]

Mike,
Our visit Wednesday was completely different than our first encounter two years ago. The old man was completely gracious, patient, and educational, not to mention fair. Maybe he was just having a bad day on the first visit. Anyway, I'm glad we connected.

I've been going to the other coast to train with Robert Martian. Great guy and teacher! He uses a beautiful side by side Marchetti. Very physically fatiguing (sp?) to fly. By the way I believe he uses Dragon Wings.

Thanks for the info on your friend. Give me his number and I'll contact him. I think I'm ready to feel another machine.

[Vance]

Rick, it has been my experance that calling someone "the old man" can reduce the civility in a relationship, especialy if the person using the term is not much younger. Thank you, Vance

[KenSandyEggo]

Naaaaaaaah. "The old man" is a term of endearment for a dad, unless meant to be derogatory. Doesn't sound like that in Rick's post.

[Harry_S.]

I agree Ken. I think a reference, "the old man" is meant to be congenial and respectful. The reference, "old man" could be derogatory and disrespectful.

Only my opinion. ;)

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

How about " Smiling Jack " to describe professional pilots?

Is that respectful?

[RICK MARTIN]

Wow guys,

I didn't mean to create such a controversy. It's just an expression meant as a congenial poke. I'm about to turn 50 and get it all the time. Thanks Ken & Harry. Vance, I'll be careful how I address you. How old are you?

[KenSandyEggo]

"How about " Smiling Jack " to describe professional pilots?"

Why, do you know one? :D

[Harry_S.]

Ahhh!!! I see Mr. Negativity, has returned!!! :eek:

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Hi Ken, how goes the battle.

Yeh, I know a lot of professional pilots, some good some bad but most know what they are doing.

I just got back from Amsterdam and am really jet lagged, I will have to return in about ten days, just enough time to get the body clock set and then go back and start all over again....this is probably the most difficult part of my work, commuting back and forth across the atlantic.

Anyhow I really was zinging around Europe for a couple of weeks and took on a couple more commitments.

I may be in California with an American PBY in about a month, it all depends on how soon I can get the Dutch crew certified to fly their new toy.

It is really a top notch restoration as they have spent over a million US on it to this point.

I will try and post some pictures if I can get my camera talking to my computer again.

Harry......... when you live in a glass house don't throw stones.

I was not the one that referred to professional pilots as " Smiling Jacks "
And if you find me negative why that is your perogative.... :D

Anyhow I just had to stir the ants in your nest...the devil made me do it. ;)

Chuck E.

[MikeBoyette]

Hey Rick,
Bob is a great instructor. I know the Marchetti Bob flys very well. I spent many hours in the co-pilots seat with Steve Graves when he owned it. I did the majority of my training in that very machine. Great machine to learn the basics, but I would recommend getting some more hours in a different machine. Learning to fly in the Marchetti is like flying a dump truck. Then when you fly yours, it's like getting into an underpowered go cart. Dave's number is 813-634-2809. Give him a call anytime after 7pm. I think it's Damn funny you called my Dad "OLD Man". I have been calling him that for years. He acts much like a "grumppy old man". :)

[Vance]

Gosh Chuck, I thought Harry was talking about me! Thank You, Vance

[RICK MARTIN]

Thanks Mike!

[Harry_S.]

A nice friendly post Chuck. :rolleyes:

Noooowwww...I don't think there's a negative thought in my body. :confused: I'm too old to have bad :mad: thoughts anymore.


Vance: Why would I do that? You just retired, I gather? I see in your profile, a reference to the R-44. Are you presently flying one?


Cheers ;)

[Vance]

Hi Harry, As to your first question; Because I pointed out what I felt was an indiscreation about refering to someone as "the old man". Apparently I was oversensitive or misunderstood The colloquialism. I mentioned it because of previous discusion of a less than ideal first encounter with Ernie, who I know to be a very nice man. It was an observation related to my own lifes experance and I felt that you might interpet that as negativity. That's what I get for offering unsolicited advice.

I road raced motorcycles proffesionaly almost into my 40's and I didn't like it when jornelists would refer to me as a "vetran road racer" or "the old man". I found it challanging to be nice to them. Because we value youth and Ernie seems young and vital to me I thought that perhaps calling him by his name would work better.

As to your second and third question; I retired in 2002, I was flying a Robinson 44 (17 hours training and three hours to solo) in 02 but I had an FAA medical challange because I'm recently (1995) blind in one eye, have limited vision in the other and have landed on my head too many times. They felt that my lack of depth perception and complex cognitive skills would be a challange to safe flying. That has been resolved with a medical check ride and a SODA. I have become enamored with the world of gyroplanes. I have been training (31 hours) with Terry, Steve and Mr Mayfield at Buckeye. My darling wife just purchased a Dominator kit for my Birthday.

I am very excited about this new adventure and all the remarkable people I am getting to know. Thank You, Vance

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Falling on your head to many times will be perfect to fit in with this group. :D

I wouldn't worry to much about being taken the wrong way in these forums, sometimes it is hard to get the message the way the poster meant it to sound.

If all else fails tell em to pound salt, it worked for me. :D

Chuck

[Vance]

Thank You for your kind words, Chuck. I wasn't worried about being misunderstood at all. I was trying to answer Harry's questions. I haven't mastered the verbal skills to clearly express my feelings. You do that beauitifully with clear explainations. I am usually clear on your position after I have read one of your posts. I can understand how your opinion could be construed as negative if it was in opisition to someones strongly held beleif. I did't think that Harry was talking about you because your post seemed so benign. Thank you, Vance

[Vance]

Sorry Rick, I missed your question. I am 55 and you may adress me however you wish. Thank you, Vance

[Mike Hook]

Geeeeeeeeeeee Vance I am jelious now your retired,,,, my retirement plan is work till I die and hope that I can. :) :) :)

What the big thing with the old man stuff, My crew call me that all the time Hmmmmmmm guess i am......

Mike

[Vance]

Hi Mike, I believe that you have a most enviable profession. It must feel good in the quiet of the night to think of all the things you have created and how much pleasure people get each day from what you have wired in your working life. You make the buildings come alive. It sounds like you don't have to abuse your body anymore and you get to solve problems. I think that it is important to enjoy each day!

This is my third attempt at retirement. I keep finding new ways to entertain myself with what people beleive to be work. This causes them to give me money and that is hard to walk away from. I have to work hard each day at remaining retired.

There is no question in my mind at this point that I am oversensitive to that moniker. When I raced and was after sponsers I found that they were after someone unknown, young and hungry so that they didn't have to pay much and everyone beleived that the young warrior did well because of their product. The usefull life of a motorcycle road racer is from about 20 to about 30 so you can imagine that I struggled with that for a number of years. Ernie is a few weeks younger than me. You all have defeated my concern over the term "the old man" causing discord. Thank You for your help. Vance

[RICK MARTIN]

Vance,
No offense taken here. I kind of read between the lines of your initial post and figured something was up. I rode bikes a long time too but not competitively. My last three were gold wings. I stopped when my daughter was born in '89. But I must admit I miss it dearly. And I've been tempted by a vintage BMW recently. One thing at a time.

[Harry_S.]

Hi Vance:

WOW, you do having a darling wife. Wish my bride would present me with something along that line. Give her another hug.

I guess your into construction of your gyro. Good luck and enjoy!! When do you put the ETC.? (Estimated Time of Completion)

I see you are training with AAI, that's good; I understand they have a fine operation going there. I'd like to visit there someday.

Vance, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but:
Many great names have been referred to as "the old man." Commanding Officers, Admirals, Generals, Department Heads, CEO's, etc. Even some sport figures come to mind...Arnold Palmer, Sam Snead, Tom Landry, George Steinbrenner, etc. It's all relative...a reference to "the old man", to me is in deference to his position...unless, "the SOB", is added to it!! :)


Cheers.

[Vance]

Harry, it has been my experance that projects such as building an aircraft dictate their own time of compleation.

Charlene says "thank you for the hug".

Yes, you are beating a dead horse. I already gave up and changed my position in post 74. I am often out of touch with the colloquial style of the forum. I tend to be a little too formal. That is my conundrum and I will make an effort to be more thoughtfull in the future. Thank You, Vance

[Mike Hook]

Vance could you right me a note to give to my wife telling her is it okay to buy meeeeeeee a gyro :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Mike

[KenSandyEggo]

While on the freeway today, I saw a motorcycle/jet-ski dealer with a huge banner facing the freeway. It said: "YOUR WIFE CALLED AND SHE SAID IT WAS O.K."