Is Piloting a Gyro an Art, Talent, or Skill?

[dragonflyerthom]

When I first started my lessons in the RAF AAI modified gyro, I was impressed by the number of things that were needed to control all at the same time on take off and landing. I really didn't see a big difference in the actual flying from a fixed wing. But the T/O and Landing were totally different. So is it an art, a talent, or an acquired skill? If not then why is it impossible for some to learn to fly gyros?

[StanFoster]

Thom: I would say that first....its an acquired skill....then if that skill gets exceptional...then its a talent........I would only think the very top talented pilots fly as an art.


I am still working by the way on acquiring the skills......definately not talented.:eek:


Stan

[Racer]

Thom, I think it is all of the above, some people have the knack for certain things that they can tune there skills and with practice they can refine them to an art. Different people have strengths in different areas, Some may not be capable of managing the rotor blades and controlling the RRPM while keeping the craft on the runway with the rudder petals and managing the airspeed, throw in a crosswind and they are toast for sure. That does not mean these people are less talented in any way, this may just not be there cup of tea. These are the same people who could smoke you in a game of chess with a blindfold on or some other skill that they are strong at.

To fly Gyro's you have to have good hand eye coordination and also have that seat of your pants feel that will tell you so much information. Another thing that I believe is you must you be aware of everything while flying, be aware of weather changes, wind changes, etc. Listen to your machine for changes in the engine and also the airframe, feel for changes in the feel of your machine, A new vibration could be a warning of something really bad to come so pay attention!

I believe the answer to your question Thom is all of the above.

[StanFoster]

Todd: That seat of your pants comment is so true. Greg Gremminger always refers to it as a G meter. It takes different people different amount of times to having that G meter connected to the brain/hand eye system. When it connects though...thats when the "feel" comes to you and you are then in a closed loop. It feels part of you. Thats when its easy to fly.


The eye hand coordination is so true with any hand skill. I can remember starting out years ago trying to rip something freehand with a table saw. It takes a lot of acquired skill to get the eye hand connection going to do this. After doing this for so long,,,my neanderthal motor skills are so automatic...its easy to split a pencil line freehand. When you are doing this ...there are so many subtle back and forth flexing of muscles that make this happen with what is almost effortless input.

It isnt any different flying rotorcraft. You acquire those little subtle inputs that automatically get applied without hardly any effort. The built in G meter is feeding the info the brain and back without you even thinking.


Stan

[dragonflyerthom]

Todd

I fly from a single paved runway. On one end it is 26 and at the other end it is 08. When the wind is from the SEorNE on 08 there are trees about 150 meters from the runway. They go along side it for about 1500 feet. These trees are about 70 feet tall. When you get below the tree line the wind direction either comes at you or swirls. Now if one isn't on their toes and has the seat of the pants feeling as you put it , then the lift goes out of the rotors. I have had several saves while landing in this direction. This is the reason for this question. I now have over 68 hours in a gyro. I believe I have learned the skills necessary but this type of scenario has been different each time I have had it. So is it talent or art or skill? Maybe it is a combination of all three when a pilot has enough hours.

Stan you might be right also.

[brett s]

Definitely a trained skill - but some folks will learn that skill faster, or be capable of attaining a higher skill level than others. We're all different...

[Racer]

I do not believe that all people could learn to fly gyro's proficiently no matter how much training they get, You need to have some level of talent to start with, then the skills can be taught by an instructor, then practice can turn your skills into an art.

I know several people who cannot drive a car with a manual transmission, I am not degrading these people in any way, some are very intelligent and have built very successful companies or invested very well and are now wealthy etc. They just do not have the talent or the capability to work a clutch and a gearshift at the same time without killing the engine. These are people that I would not want to be a passenger with in a two place gyro no matter how much training they had.

[Rehan K.Janjua]

A gyro pilot transits from all three phases of skill, talent and art.

We learn the skill of gyro flying.
Solo flight is the talent acquired.
And practice the art of gyro pilot.

[birdy]

Is Piloting a Gyro an Art, Talent, or Skill,...... or job. ;)

[BUD ONEAL]

Art, talent ,skill and a job for birdy. For the rest of us "rotor manangment" is a learned skill.Flying the thing straight and level is a no brainer,once you get the blade manangment under control.

[dragonflyerthom]

I have heard that you must fly the rotors. Hard to see the rotors behind you. I have found the rotors are a feel most of the time.

All are really good posts. We have people like GyroRon who has excellent hand eye coordination and can or will attempt any type of gyro. Is it a talent then?

[BUD ONEAL]

I believe that Ron Awad and George Groff have a natural abilty to fly most any thing. They fall right in line with Ernie Boyette and Dick Degraw. I know that there is more than them but right now I cannot think of them.

[Harry_S.]

All three of your references are contributors, Thom...IMO.


Cheers :)

[dragonflyerthom]

Thanks Harry

My Dad who always had a saying for every occasion would say; If you watch someone do something and it looks really easy you can bet they have practiced it many times. So the way I interpret all these answers is we train until we have the skill to fly a gyro, Then depending on our respective talents we get better but there are those among us who will develop these talents into an art form.


Is this about it?

[Glenn D]

Birdy,

The way you fly the Feral is an art period!!

[Harry_S.]

The art and skill associated with our type of flying are somewhat synonymous, I think.

I would associate the "Art" in gyro flying, along the fashion that Ken Brock used in his demonstrations at Air Shows. His demos were within a confined space and were smooth and well coordinated maneuvers, a sight to behold. I particularly enjoyed his deadstick, spiraling, spot landings.


Cheers :)

[GyroDoug]

Is Piloting a Gyro an Art, Talent, or Skill,...... or job. ;)

Birdy,

Your posts seem a bit jaded lately. After flying so many hours in a Gyro, does it start to loose the magic? I hope not. Although I doubt that I will ever get as many hours logged as you have already. So maybe I will never have to worry about that.

Gyro Doug

[birdy]

Wot the hell is an art period!! Glen??
Dont think it sounds real nice.

Your posts seem a bit jaded lately.
Im a constantly jaded person Doug , life [ people] jade me. The gyros are the only reason i still posses a pinch of sanity. ;)

[dragonflyerthom]

Birdy

What is the worst incident that took all three types of flying ability to stay safe. You know the one that when it was all over your knees knocked together?

[birdy]

Actualy Thom, its funny you should mention nerves.
A coulpa weeks back i had sum wires short out in my head. I have no idea wot went rong with my line of thought, but i know the last place i wanted to be was off the ground. Iv never felt it before, and not since, and i hope never again.
Id been mustern for bout 8 hours that mor'n and was on my way home, over bout 100 miles of ranges. Ranges iv flown over plenty of times and while the wind was strong and ruff, it was nuthn compared to the worst iv flown in.
No incidents or near misses that mor'n, just a regular day at the office, but for sum reason, i was sh1tn meself go'n home.
I was worried if i was go'n to be able to keep go'n. Panic was startn to set in, but i just kept lookn horisontal and telln meself to stop sookn and fly.

Buggered if i can figure wot happened.

What is the worst incident that took all three types of flying ability to stay safe.
Of all the near misses and bingles iv had, that trip is wot took the most concentration.
Mainly coz i knew that if i did 'loose it', id be history [ big tigers below] and no 'investigater' would have thought i just 'lost it'.

[MrGrey]

Dont forget that guys like Ron, Dick, Ernie, Birdy, etc.. all have 500-1000+ hours....67 hours aint alot... eventually your skill will get you there so as to become a talented pilot....as far as an art... I think that artful flying is left for the more maneuverable machines that can perform more complex maneuvers than an RAF. But that is just my opinion

[Gyropilot007]

Guys:

In my humble opinion natural ability or TALENT has to play a part. For instance, many people take piano lessons but how many are concert pianists? I know personally, at least one person who has taken many, many flying lessons and still cannot fly. Natural ability has to play a part.

That being said, the amount of natural ability varies from individual to individual. Some people pick up flying right away while others take some time. In the end they may both be very good pilots.

And then there are the rare individuals who are extremely talented. They take to flying like a duck to water and can make their aircraft dance in the sky.

All in all, many factors come into play to make a pilot, but natural ability is certainly the major one.

Bob

[dragonflyerthom]

Birdy

That was rather insightful. The thought of flying 8 hours conjured up images of when I was really young going to the skating rink. After 3 to 4 hours of skating I would get off the skates and feel like I was still skating.

Birdy

After flying that long do you sometimes feel like you are still flying?

[StanFoster]

Birdy: I have been a big fan of yours for years. You fly for a living where we fly for fun. That in itself says you have to know whats going on.


I remember you telling a story flying in an awful duststorm...where your only clue for keeping upright was to do so by looking at the dimmed out sun just visible through the dust. Could you retell that story?

That one story involves art, talent, skill....maybe luck...

Stan

[Racer]

"Mainly coz i knew that if i did 'loose it', id be history [ big tigers below]"

That is some really good motivation not to crash, Wow Birdy, you have an interesting work environment

[Glenn D]

Birdy,

The way you fly the Feral is an art, period!!


No disrespect intended, when I saw your flying on youtube you are in total control and make flying a gyro look effortless, what I should have stated was the way you fly the feral is an art-form, something all we amateurs can try to elevate to your level!!

A gyro fan,
Glenn.

[birdy]

After flying that long do you sometimes feel like you are still flying?
I used to Thom, but now i can fly a 12 hour day and wen i lie down i feel like sleepn. ;)

I remember you telling a story flying in an awful duststorm...
That was bushfire smoke Stan, and im buggered if i can find that post. :(

Wow Birdy, you have an interesting work environment
Id swap my work for your raceing anyday Racer, iv always wanted to rally. :)

Thanx Glenn, but mate, if an amateur could keep with me, id have sum serious conserns no?
If i havent started to get the hang of it now i never will. ;)

[StanFoster]

Birdy: I must have gotten that story mixed up with one of your dust storm stories. Anyway...it was a thriller and I hope you can find it...or hey....please retell it....I am listening....thanks



Stan

[Heron]

Skill = can be acquired
Talent = shorten the time required for the acquisition
Art = when you take the acquired skill to levels only you or few can
Specific I.Q. = a talent to do something better than others
heron

[dragonflyerthom]

Very Good Heron.

great definitions.

[Heron]

There is a bunch of good pilots that I have seen flying:
Ron A, flies good and can fly a number of different crafts,
Gary Goldsberry, great stick
Jake Jacobs, very cool and steady
Greg Gemminger, enciclopedic stick
Mike Solano, very professional when at demo
Uncle Rusty, lots of experience
But I will reserve the art pilot for a few:
Larry Neal, unbeliavable hands
David Seace, ties knots in the air
Steve Mac, The ace, can fly in his sleep.
Honor mention to Birdy, only in videos but . . .get real . . .proper nickname!
Heron

[Gyropilot007]

I, for one, would love to hear the dust storm/brush fire story.

Bob

[mceagle]

[Quote] is it an art, a talent, or an acquired skill?
Thom[Quote/]

Art – human skill as opposed to nature

Talent – special aptitude

Acquired skill – acquired expertness or practised ability

Definitely not an Art in the early stages because the skill is not there. Can become an art for the very experienced pilot with the will for constant improvement.

There is no such thing as a natural talent for this unnatural human endeavour. Talent can be perceived to be present in some pilots, but there is usually some other prior related endeavour that has ‘sharpened’ his skills which, to the inexperienced, makes the pilot appear naturally talented. As a rule, the perceived ‘natural talent; has the same accident rate as any low hour pilot.

Definitely an acquired skill, which is why the very experienced pilots have by far the lowest accident rate, and never seem to be inflicted with those little gremlins that bring beginners unstuck.

You cannot nominate or elect experience, - it has to be earned with time.

[magilla]

There is a reason that the US Army used to have a max age for sending folks to flight school...

The max age used to be 32...then they put in waivers to 36...then they got rid of the waivers...and we now deal with pilots who are 40 and have only flown one year...ughhhhhh.

But the bottom line is this: just like playing the piano, or the drums, or snow skiing - flying is a learned skill that becomes much more difficult the older you start.

Nobody who starts gyro flying at 60 is going to EVER match a 16 year old gyro pilot in ability to do even basic maneuvers...Just like no one who starts skiiing at 60 is going to win the Giant Slalom in the Olympics.

Here's the deal, Thom: fly what you're comfortable flying, and when you get more experience, it will increase your comfortability in different situations.

There are no substitutes for flight hours, aggrssively training different maneuvers, and flying Cross Country.

But know this: THOM, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE AS GOOD AS RON AWAD, GREG GREMMINGER, RUSTY NANCE, OR EVEN, DARE I SAY IT, THE MASTER OF THE GYRO UNIVERSE (Dennis Fetters) - you just have to be good enough to land the damned thing after you take off, and have a good time doing it. Period.

And flight ability doesn't mean squat when it comes to posting, and the amount of credibility you have.

DF is a great pilot, with tons of natural ability - but his ability does not equate to "weight" in any logical argument - that is based upon the soundness of the argument, and soundness of mind of the arguer...

Just because a person has umpteen thousand hours flying gyros, it doesn't make a certifiable loony suddenly sane, now does it?

Just be happy out there flying and having a good time. Expand your skills, day by day.

And enjoy life.

[dragonflyerthom]

Spencer
You crack me up. I definitely am glad to have made your acquaintance. You have a way of getting to the point. I have thousands of questions. Most of which I already know the answer but how others think about different aviation subjects are very important to me. I live by the motto that the only stupid question is the one not asked. Long live the debate.

Heron where are you?

Merry Christmas everyone and Happy Holidays to all.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Quote:


There is a reason that the US Army used to have a max age for sending folks to flight school...

The max age used to be 32...then they put in waivers to 36...then they got rid of the waivers...and we now deal with pilots who are 40 and have only flown one year...ughhhhhh.

But the bottom line is this: just like playing the piano, or the drums, or snow skiing - flying is a learned skill that becomes much more difficult the older you start.

Nobody who starts gyro flying at 60 is going to EVER match a 16 year old gyro pilot in ability to do even basic maneuvers...Just like no one who starts skiiing at 60 is going to win the Giant Slalom in the Olympics.

**************************************

I'm curious to know at what age you feel pilots motor skills and ability to learn gets to the point where they should quit or not start flying Magilla?

Because I just retired from the air show business two years ago and we had some pretty sharp guys way older than me that were still impressive.

Bob Hoover was in his eighties when he was still flying his routine and I could detect no degrading of his flying abilities.

[WaspAir]

Skill is necessary. Talent is nice. Artistry is impressive. Judgment usually makes the difference that really counts.

[dragonflyerthom]

Skill is necessary. Talent is nice. Artistry is impressive. Judgment usually makes the difference that really counts.


Very Nice J.R.

Judgment hasn't been brought up at all. I really hadn't thought about it but deciding whether to fly today or not based on the conditions of the aircraft, pilot or weather probably is one of the most important aspects after one is a gyro pilot.:smokin:

[ezeddie]

I know I'm older than dirt, cuz when I started FW's the age limit was "30" !!!!!

eddie.......:puke: .........

[Heron]

Observing! :D
From half way down under!
Heron (feeling rich in the 6th world´s economy)

[GyroRon]

I have stayed out of this thread, it is neat to read the comments.

I do think that most of what has been said is true.

Some people, at some point, learn to become one with the gyro.... they make it a extention of themselves rather than just being a passenger on it. That is probably the point at which observers call it a art.

Some people will never be more than passengers in their gyro. Other will, but it will take a long time. And some others become one with the gyro very quickly, These are the so called " naturals "

[dragonflyerthom]

I have stayed out of this thread, it is neat to read the comments.

I do think that most of what has been said is true.

Some people, at some point, learn to become one with the gyro.... they make it a extention of themselves rather than just being a passenger on it. That is probably the point at which observers call it a art.

Some people will never be more than passengers in their gyro. Other will, but it will take a long time. And some others become one with the gyro very quickly, These are the so called " naturals "


Ron

I have to agree with you to a point. I will just restate what you have just said. Some of us will be passenger in our gyros as we will the technical skills to fly, T/O and Land. When we become one with our gyros we will have developed the Talent to fly with the feelings, seat of the pants and know where we are at flying speed from take off to landing. The gyro pilots that have taken it to an Art form have the skills, talent and artistic ability to do the hammer heads, wing overs, hovering , flying is a box and all the things we see the gyro can do. It is just that they do it so naturally they make it look easy for the rest of us. Our best pilots posses it all. It will be difficult for the older pilots to begin and progress thru all these attributes. I think this is where some of us get into trouble and go over.

[Racer]

The magic word is "Seat time"

[magilla]

Uh-Oh. Chuck, I think you misunderstood me - I wasn't commenting on age and it's impact on flying skills having been already learned at all...

Sometimes this medium doesn't lend itself to being able to communicate effectively. Arrrghhhhh!!

I was trying to address the level of skill one can attain when he undertakes learning a COMPLETELY NEW motor skill later in life.

When you start new physical skills at a young age, you build neural networks in your brain that don't go away. Building those same neural networks takes a LOT more time when you start later in life.

A person who has NEVER flown, and who decides to take up flying at 60 CAN learn to fly. But it will take longer to build those neural networks. And he will never develop into a Chuck Yeager. He can become a 100% sound, safe pilot with excellent judgment. BUT HE WILL NEVER DEVELOP THE SAME NATURAL SKILL AND ABILITY OF SOMEONE WHO STARTS FLYING AT 14.

I will tell you that the BEST "natural" pilots that I have encountered are those who started early. Real early - like 14.

My point to Thom was to not worry about being superman in a gyro - but to just go out and enjoy flying, and to get better at his own pace - since he started flying a little later in life.

The point at which someone should hang up flying is when they start doing the "bob and travel" at the stick...or they forget the airport they took off from,or their destination once they get in the air. Otherwise, let 'em rip!

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Magilla..I was only pulling your pecker, of course you are correct that it takes longer for older people to learn new skills...there may be exceptions but I have not met them yet.

On another note have you flown any of the Russian helicopters?

I got to fly a MI-8 some years ago when I was doing the Africa thing...boy the Russians sure make a brutal tough machine....

[WHY]

Hi Spencer

Boy! you are right on about the learning skills and age, even in my twenty's I had not problems learning a "little" Spanish but tried to learn a "little" Japanese around the mid- fifties and found alot of the "old brain sponge" had calcified and turned to concrete.

Tony

PS now I have enough trouble with English !

[StanFoster]

I believe that about hard to learn something as you get older. I find I can recall names from 30 years ago easier than hearing someones name 30 minutes ago and having to ask their name ago. I should be in real good shape soaking up helicopter training.....:wacko: maybe in 5 years I will solo one.:help:


Stan

[Harry_S.]

There is a reason that the US Army used to have a max age for sending folks to flight school...

The max age used to be 32...then they put in waivers to 36...then they got rid of the waivers...and we now deal with pilots who are 40 and have only flown one year...ughhhhhh.

.



I'll tell you my story, Spencer.

In '69, with Nam in high gear, I made a decision to re-enlist and apply for Helicopter Flight Training. I had a FW rating and was well along with my helo training.

The OIC of the Enlistment Center was an Infantry Captain with two prior tours in Nam, had volunteered to go back again and was waiting on orders. The age limit for training at that time was 35, but he agreed with me that my previous 6 yrs. active duty should reduce my age to 33 and allow me in for training. He did ask me if I'd guess what the Number 1 Military Target was in Nam?! My answer was right.

Anyhow, I passed the Class One Flight Physical and a battery of other tests and was waiting for the orders to report when I received a letter from the Surgeon General...informing me that I was over the 35 age limit and could not be acepted for training. He went on to explain that at age 35, a man's body begins to "deteriorate." How does that grab ya?!


Cheers :)

[BUD ONEAL]

And the worst part is Harry it don't stop!!

[Harry_S.]

And the worst part is Harry it don't stop!!



Yeah Bud, we know it but the young-uns have yet to find out.


Cheers :)

[magilla]

Yeah...and now since we can't find a CW2 or CW3 anywhere in sight -(the only pilots left in the Army and the Guard are CW4's and CW5's waiting for retirement, and brand new WO1's.) they are accepting 40 year old new trainees.

Advantage: maturity, safety-orientation (self-preservation is big in the 40-plus crowd)

Disadvantage: learning a new skill...and being too damned cautious. OMFG, I tell them to make a 45 degree bank, and what do they do? - "Sir, you have the controls!!!"

By the way Chuck, my barber told me that my hair isn't turning gray, it's turning platinum. Yeah, baby!

Also, when I start telling stories of me in my Rugby hey-dey, going for the national championships against Air Force...I was invincible. The old adage is absolutely true:

"The older I get, the better I was..."

Listen, if you cant last a bag of gas because you have to pee 14 times an hour, you might want to hang up the flying gig, there, Chuck. HA!

I plan on having a wheelchair accessible gyro, myself... Hoist me in, and let me FLY!!

Oooooh, some toys just arrived for the Jungle Gym!!

See ya later!