Just enjoying the sky [Archive]

LARRYEBOYER

06-29-2004, 09:14 AM

yesterday was a 10 in Pa. i think it might have been the nicest day of the yesr so far. I left the house at 7 am and had the hanger doors open by7:30. I did a preflight and Lucky Lady started right up. There was low humidity and 0 wind. I took off of 28 heading west. I adjusted the trim for hands off. It just flew so stable and so solid. I did a few hard banks and a low level flight over my favorite hay field, then climbed to 900 ft. I headed over a ridge south for 5 miles, then headed east back to the airport.You could see and smell the smoke coming straight up from the ground from a person burning brush.It was so calm. The other side of this calm air is that you could also smell the do do spread on the farmers fields. All in all, I just couln't help feeling so grateful for the opportunity and privalige to fly over such pristine land and do it in a RAF.

barnstorm2

06-29-2004, 10:10 AM

The first pic is my fav also (all are great).

Harry_S.

06-29-2004, 12:06 PM

Larry: It is such a calming experience to fly a stable RAF, at any time; more so as when you and Stan post your thoughts and pictures after such a flight.

An RAF, with an effective stab, is one of the best flying machines around!!!

Cheers.

StanFoster

06-29-2004, 06:14 PM

Harry/Larry......I still for the life of me dont see all the flack the RAF with a good stab still gets.

I sure as heck am not a special pilot...and I sure dont have any problems with wind....doors on...doors off;.....my biggest surprise is that there havent been any surprises....

I am approaching 80 hours of nothing but pleasant flying in my RAF. The RAF guys that gave me advice in my pre RAF days were right on. :)

Stan

LARRYEBOYER

06-30-2004, 10:30 AM

I love my RAF. Period!!! It is not a machine for a beginner, but may be with adequate training in type with a stabalizer. I was flying this morning in 5-10 mph winds with some gusts and the thermals started to work about 11:00 am. No surprises. Just a fun, stable, dependable machine. I flew with my thumb and 3 fingers lightly arround the stick. I have a local friend that is getting a Sparrow Hawk this fall. I hope to be the test pilot when it is finished. I will accurately report the difference with an unbiased attitude. I flew a CLT Air Command with a hopped up E-81. I can't say it flew any better than my RAF with the new Ultamate stab.As you know I am building a new machine with more HP and a keel mod to lower the CLT. Aussie Paul says the RAF in NZ that had a similiar mod done flew superior to any RAF he ever flew before. So between the RAF with the new stab, the RAF with the new keel change, the experience in the Air Command and the new Sparrow Hawk, I should be able to answer the big question on most gyro head minds.What should I be flying to fly safe? Or, What mods do I need to make to have the best flying RAF?
I have to tell you a flying story before I go. I am going up to the Lake house this weekend. I am leaving to night for a long 4th. I had just entered the downwind pattern today at Morgantown when I heard a pilot report a back taxie on 10. I called to tell traffic I was in a downwind. He said he would will get off the runway and started a turn. I called back and said he was to keep taxing on the active. I only needed 50 ft or less to land on 28. I mentioned that I would be on the ground in less than 30 seconds. I rolled Lucky Lady into a sharp bank. I Then straightened out the approach and cut the engine. I was on the ground and off the runway in just a few seconds. The pilot in the Cardinal was just amazed at the short field landing. He called me and said he had heard there was a gyro on the field, but didn't realize they were so quick and manuerverable. He pulled his Cardinal off the runway and got out. He looked the RAF all over and told me how amazed he was that it looked like an airplane inside. He thought gyros were just toys.(some are)
He was on his way to a lunch meeting with a friend. Anyway, we drawl attention anywhere we go and Gyros sure are fun. And you meet the nicest people flying a RAF.( Sorry Harley-Davidson for stealing part of your slogan).

Gyropilot007

06-30-2004, 11:00 AM

Stan:

I always look forward to your great pictures. I can't wait until the day I'll be posting some myself although I think you will find that the scenery in Northwest Indiana is somewhat different from what you're seeing in southern Illinois.

My RAF-2000 is almost finished. I'm going to have Tom Milton do the FAA inspection and then I'll be setting up a training schedule. I have about 450 hours as a private fixed wing pilot but zero hours as a gyro pilot so this will be a new and learning experience for me. I'm really looking forward to it.

Bob McGuire

Harry_S.

06-30-2004, 11:51 AM

Bob: Welcome to the RAF crowd. There are many more like you out there, that we would like to see come on board. Some may think of being flamed if they join us...but, I don't think that'll happen.

Who will be your instructor? Please be active with us, on Todd's forum, and keep us posted.

I'm sure Stan and Larry, with me as well, would be available for any consultation, via e-mail, if you prefer.

Cheers.

Russell

06-30-2004, 02:03 PM

And you meet the nicest people flying a RAF.( Sorry Harley-Davidson for stealing part of your slogan). Sorry but that is a HONDA ad from the 70's
Russ :eek:

StanFoster

06-30-2004, 06:30 PM

Bob: Thanks...and I cant wait to see you flying your RAF. I accidently deleted your private e-mail to me. The question you asked about the rod ends ....I did replace mine...but probably not as soon as some here wanted me to. :D

I taught myself to fly my Bensen.,.my Aur Command...and my RAF.

I do not recommend it..but I found nothing but the dangest good feel to the RAF and I now have over 80 hours in it. One nice running machine.

I would like to fly up and see yours. Let me know if I can.

Stan

GyroRon

06-30-2004, 07:12 PM

. So between the RAF with the new stab, the RAF with the new keel change, the experience in the Air Command and the new Sparrow Hawk, I should be able to answer the big question on most gyro head minds.What should I be flying to fly safe? Or, What mods do I need to make to have the best flying RAF?

The AAI mod kit for the RAF will take away the last bit of danger the high trustline RAF will always have without this mod. Sucks that is cost so much, and sucks even more that the mast no longer folds with this mod, but with the mod Bunt overs are a thing of the past. Without the mod with ANY stab a bunt over it still a possibilty. Bunt overs are fatal. Why roll the dice?

Gyropilot007

07-01-2004, 04:50 AM

Thanks very much for the welcome Harry. I'm very excited about the upcoming experience of learning to fly my RAF. I received my private pilot's license when I was 18 flying fixed wing aircraft. My flying has been anything but consistant. I'm now at the point in my life where I have the time and the finances to pursue this hobby in a more dedicated manner.

I have to tell you that although I plan to have a lot of fun, I plan to do so in as safe a manner as possible. After reading posts from many experienced gyropilots and also books and articles I have put a horizontal stabilizer on my machine. I would appreciate any additional tips that have been learned by experienced RAF owners.

Two immediate questions come to mind. Should I change my rod ends to the magna-fluxed variety? And how can I add a visual fuel level sight gauge to my fiberglass seat/tank?

Any help will be greatly appreciate. And I would be happy to correspond with any and all of you that are interested in talking gyros.

Regarding my flight instruction, as of now I have not chosen an instructor. I live in Northwest Indiana. There are currently no RAF instructors located in this area. Dofin Fritz has told me that he may come up here at the end of August for a 2-3 month training session. He said he believes there are enough potential students to make this commerically viable for him. This would be GREAT for me. I run my own small business and it would be difficult for me to leave for two weeks to travel for instruction.

Well, that's it for now.

Best regards,

Bob McGuire

gyroman

07-01-2004, 05:49 AM

Bob,

Glad you decided on putting a stab on your RAF. As attested by Stan and Larry, the RAF is a much more stable machine with the stabilizer added. I just wanted to add a comment that you may want to take note of. Since the only flying time you have is in fixed wing you need to understand there are some differences in flying a gyro and airplane. Keep this in mind during your training, you may have to unlearn some responses. As you may or may not have heard there was a guy on the east coast who was recently killed in an RAF WITH A STABILIZER. He was a high time fixed wing and I think an airline pilot and many believe he may have used his fixed wing instincts which may have contributed to his crash.

I am not harping on the RAF just wanted to make your aware of this issue. I'm sure some others like Doug Riley could explain what may have happened much better that I. I tend to agree with Ron though, if I were new to gyros I would definitely get the AAI mod if I were going with an RAF. Good Luck....

Gyropilot007

07-01-2004, 06:11 AM

Toby:

Thanks for the information. I have not heard about the crash? Do you have any details or can you point me in the right direction so I can get more infomation?

Thanks,

Bob

gyroman

07-01-2004, 06:59 AM

Here's the thread to look at concerning the crash.

Virginia Crash - RAF with Stab (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83&highlight=crash)

gyroman

07-01-2004, 07:15 AM

I found the NTSB factual on this crash and posted it in the original thread.

jucie

07-01-2004, 08:46 AM

No, I am not a RAF owner, and yes, I think every pilot must be aware of it's machine flying behavior, good and bad features, hopefully improving what is amenable to improvements.

Ok, but I think we are exagerating a bit, we are giving TOO MUCH of good advice. Please don't say "we are saving a life". No, to this extreme we are only making ourselves unpleasant. This criticism becames an habit, a vice, my friends. It's worthless, because RAF owners already know those advices!

No RAF owner can say "I like my gyro" without listening to a huge amount of theory about rotorcraft aerodynamics. When one of them say "my gyro has HS", do you think things get any better for the poor man? No way: we continue arguing that even with HS a RAF isn't a stable gyro (yes, I know it, you know it, I think even my grandmother knows it), but imagine yourself listening the same again and again.

Conclusion: by proceeding this way, with this "totalitarian view" we prove we aren't able to accept somebody can have a different choice than ourselves. Should we come back to kindengarden to learn what FREEDOM stands for?

Gary_in_Orygun

07-01-2004, 09:44 AM

Wow, that was a very good NTSB writeup. I don't like the quote: the manufacturer does not recommend the use of a horizontal stabilizer. It is ok to put that in there, but it should be followed by: most gyro flyers and builders in the sport disagree with that manufacturer and many RAF 2000 are equiped with horizontal stabilizers.

Other than that, I thought the writeup was thorough and accurate.

I am an RAF owner with a horizontal stabilizer. I do not plan to do the AAI mod. One day I may consider a mod which lowers the thrust line without putting the machine on stilts.

While flying I do plan to throttle back if my nose ever heads below the horizon beyond my comfort level and pull back on the stick at the same time. I do not ever plan to push the nose down after a sharp pullup. I intend to fly my machine as if it has a high thrust line and as if it could PPO if I'm not diligent. :rolleyes:

gyroman

07-01-2004, 10:53 AM

Jucie,

I fail to understand your views on my posts above. I understand how you may be tired of people talking about the RAF and its problems but I was not addressing the masses, I was addressing Bob who is a new RAF owner and "soon-to-be" gyro pilot.

"Ok, but I think we are exagerating a bit, we are giving TOO MUCH of good advice. Please don't say "we are saving a life". No, to this extreme we are only making ourselves unpleasant."

Where was I being remotely unpleasant to Bob? Maybe someone else is tired of hearing about the RAF problems but he stated he was a new owner AND asked for any additional tips about the RAF. I was not rude or demeaning in any of my posts. As for "giving too much advice to save a life", this completely baffles me, why don't you ask Richard Northam's family if they would have liked to know some more of this info. By using your advice, If someone were driving down the road with gas leaking out of their car while smoking a cigarette I guess we should just not say anything at the risk of being "unpleasant" just because we don't like his car.

"This criticism becames an habit, a vice, my friends. It's worthless, because RAF owners already know those advices!"

Again he stated he was new, and asked for more info. I thought the info I provided may be of some use since he was a fixed wing pilot and plans on flying an RAF. Maybe Stan and Larry and others know everything about the "deficiencies" in the RAF and are sick of hearing it, but I was not addressing them.

"Conclusion: by proceeding this way, with this "totalitarian view" we prove we aren't able to accept somebody can have a different choice than ourselves. Should we come back to kindengarden to learn what FREEDOM stands for?"

In my conclusion: What you see as a "totalitarian view", I see as helpful information to a new RAF owner and gyropilot. If I was harping on Stan and Larry and telling them there machines were junk because of a high thrustline and even though they have a HS they are going eat mother earth any day now THEN I could see your point. If Stan and Larry say their gyros fly fine that's great. I actually love the pictures Stan posts and if I lived closer I 'd be knocking on his door saying "take me for a ride, I want to see the fields, and the deer, and the lake and the shadows, and your daughter!!! (oops how did that get in there, I'm married)". If I were hunting down all RAF owners and cutting off their heads if they didn't modify their gyros then that would prove that I can't accept someone for having a different choice than mine. And BTW, I am an American and I am KEENLY aware of what FREEDOM is, and I did learn it in kindergarten and every grade since then. If you don't believe me then just try taking a FREEDOM away...

jucie

07-01-2004, 11:11 AM

Toby, my words wasn't towards YOU, Toby. And if Bob asked for info, then you did a good service to him, fine. He will be grateful to you, I am sure.

What I am arguing is that everytime someone tells that is prowd of his RAF, the same discussion begins. It's sad.

Nothing against you, Toby. No way.

gyroman

07-01-2004, 11:42 AM

Understood, Jucie.

I understand the harping on the RAF does get old, I get tired of reading the same thing over and over again. I don't believe anything gets accomplished by yelling or putting down someone. It only puts them on the defensive and creates an even stronger feeling to prove the other person wrong.The only reason I mentioned it was that Bob stated he was a fixed wing pilot, which struck the nerve that says "hey, he may need to know what happened to the other guy!"

Harry_S.

07-01-2004, 11:53 AM

Bob McGuire: Might I suggest...you, being an RAF builder and soon to be an RAF flyer, in training...start posting on the RAF Builder/Driver thread. There, you are assured of getting good info from experienced builders and fliers.

Again, I offer my own opinions to e-mails, if you prefer.

You have chosen to build and fly one of the best. With the proper training and regimented practice, you will enjoy many hours of absolute pleasure and enjoyment in the years ahead.

Cheers.

Gyropilot007

07-01-2004, 12:28 PM

I did not take offense at any of the comments made today. As I am new at this "gyro thing" I want to learn as much as I can. I plan to have a lot of fun flying my aircraft but I want to do it as safely as possible. Any information I can get from other experienced gyro pilots will and is greatly appreciated.

I can sum up my situation very easily. I have just completed construction of an RAF-2000. My aircraft has several modifications. I have installed Larry Martin's ultimate stabilizer. I have installed Don Parham's landing gear mod. I have also installed the RAF electric stabilator.

As of today I have zero time as a pilot in command of a gyroplane. I have about 400 hours in fixed wing aircraft. I plan to take a complete course in gyro flight training with a certified CFI that has experience and teaches in RAFs.

Based on all of the above facts. Can I expect to be able to safely operate my RAF aircraft?

That is my question.

Bob McGuire

Harry_S.

07-01-2004, 01:17 PM

Bob:

Yes...most assuredly!!!

Dean_Dolph

07-01-2004, 03:05 PM

Bob, what you are going to get with your question is opinions. Opinions are not necessarily based on fact. The facts have been discussed here and on Norm's conference for years.

If you need clarification for the stated facts then ask specific detailed questions and someone will give you an answer. You have the choice of accepting the answer or not. It is obvious that there are those that have chosen not to accept them.

I wonder how the high time pilot in the the NSTB report that Toby has made reference to would answer.

May your choices be good ones.

Aussie_Paul

07-01-2004, 04:07 PM

As an instructor who has trained for a few thousand hours in Rafs with a variety of modifications, may I make a few suggestions?

1) Make sure that you train in an identical Raf to your own, preferably your
own Raf.

2) There are so many Raf mods out there now. These cause quite a few
differences in handling qualities, depending on which mods are fitted.

4) A Raf with a stab, handles quite different to a stgock Raf, and the
stabilator is another quite different "feel".

3) Don't let any instructor tell you different, particularly the Raf guys who
have never flown much, if any, time in other than a stock Raf!!!!!!!!!

Good luck, and, you "will" enjoy flying your Raf.

Aussie Paul. :)

GyroRon

07-01-2004, 05:24 PM

Juice was probably talking about what I posted yesterday or the day before in this thread. And I agree with him as far as I am sure alot of people are tired of hearing this kind of stuff. But why should anyone consider it a put down or insult to their choice of flying machine?

Gyropilot007

07-01-2004, 06:32 PM

I've often heard it said that "It's a wise man who realizes how much he DOESN'T know!" I must be pretty wise because when it comes to gyroplanes I realize I don't know much.

I appreciate all the input and I welcome any additional comments. Someone said I should ask more "specific" questions. The problem is, I'm not sure what questions to ask. My desire is simple. I want to own a safe, reliable gyroplane and I want to operate it in a safe, knowledgable and responsible manner. In this vein I believe my question was very direct, can an RAF with the modifications I've listed be operated safely and reliably by a properly trained pilot?

Bob McGuire

StanFoster

07-01-2004, 06:34 PM

Bob: Nice looking RAF. I will fly up and take a look at it. I can assure you that you will really enjoy flying it as much as I have mine. It is one nice handling machine...

I was in the same boat you are in now. Just talk to some RAF guys...and the consensus will be overwhelming to have a good stab....and you will love the way it flies.

I have a Parham stab on mine...set two degrees nose down with the keel. I have posted long ago where I measured the keel down attitude in flight at 55..65..75..and 85 miles an hour. My keel stayed at 2 degrees nose down at all those speeds. This meant the stab is flying with 4 degrees nosedown. It has me satisfied.

Also..Greg Gremminger has that excellent article on stability tests for a gyro. Mine passed all them...and that made me extra satisfied. :)

I will look forward to flying up to your place..or meeting you at Mentone.

Stan

GyroRon

07-01-2004, 08:09 PM

Bob I think with the mods you made to your gyro you can expect to enjoy it and have a blast flying it. Do the rod ends as Ken j suggests and I am sure there is other doodads that can be tweaked and fiddled with to improve on the basic RAF kit, Contacting other RAF owners will likely turn up a few things.

In your last post you asked..... " In this vein I believe my question was very direct, can an RAF with the modifications I've listed be operated safely and reliably by a properly trained pilot?" Well simply put the anwser is YES you can. BUT.... if you ask is there still any risk involved with flying you ship the anwser is still yes. As long as the thrustline is so far above the VCG there is always a possiblity of getting into some type of circumstance where the thrust offset can overpower the Stab. If this happens the gyro can bunt over and this is of course fatal. A well trained pilot will very likely never allow the gyro to get into those circumstances that a bunt over is possible and that fact along with the help of a good aftermarket Stab is why so many are enjoying their modified RAFS and that is why IMHO we have only seen one RAF with a stab go down so far.

You have to keep in mind that even though the best thing a gyro pilot has going for him or herself is a True Stable gyro, one that has Centerline thrust. Beside that all he or she has is their training and level of skill. We have had and still do have many gyros being flown around that are so UNstable that it is hard to imagine they even fly. Some of these machines have hundreds, even thousands of hours. But the reason these machines Can and do take off AND land is cause THAT pilot has the training and the skill needed to fly that machine.

If I had the chance to fly with you in your machine I would not think twice about it. With your mods I think it will be a reasonably safe machine and I think it would be fun to fly. I do believe firmly that the extra money spent to add centline thrust to ANY high thrustline gyro is money well spent....

jucie

07-02-2004, 04:06 AM

Ron, your last post is worth much more than 2 cents, my friend.

GyroRon

07-02-2004, 05:45 AM

Juice, how much is it worth then?

Chuck Irby

07-02-2004, 05:49 AM

Hey Ron, if you're going to try to get paid for it, you'll probably find out that it isn't worth even two cents. :D

Aussie_Paul

07-02-2004, 05:57 PM

I think Ron should pay us to have to read any of his posts :D !!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Aussie Paul. ;)

LARRYEBOYER

07-06-2004, 09:16 AM

Russell!!! I think you are right!. Anyway, you do meet the nicest people flying a RAF.

LARRYEBOYER

07-06-2004, 09:36 AM

hey Gyropilot007! With all those mods, you can sit back and let the aircraft do the flying. seriously, I love the LM ultamate. It took out all the pitch issues I had encountered with the other stab I had on. I would not fly without it!!! period. I have talked to a pilot who flew the stabalizer. He was very impressed. It took the pitch sensitivity out of the controls. The faster you go the more pressure is needed to move the stick forward or back. That in itself is a plus. especially for a new pilot.I heard from a long time gyro pilot who told me a major manufacturer of gyros said he believed a good HS and the RAF stabalator would make the RAF a very very stable machine. As for the instuctor, I could recommend Ron Menzie. He has tons of hours in a RAF with and without a HS. Also Jim logan just put a Stabalator on his RAF and is teaching. Either are top notch.I wish you well in your conquest of the skys(hows that for poetic verbage) and know you will soon trust the RAF to deliver to you safety and reliability. You started off on the right foot getting the mods.I might consider the AAI or the keel modification in the future. You may feel like Stan and I and be right at home with what you have.(even though I am working on a keel change on the new RAF I am building, I can't omagine it being much better that what I have now.)

StanFoster

07-06-2004, 02:11 PM

Larry: Well said. I think the RAF is one heck of a machine. :D

I am extremely comfortable flying it and am looking forward to many years in it.

Udi

07-06-2004, 02:55 PM

In this vein I believe my question was very direct, can an RAF with the modifications I've listed be operated safely and reliably by a properly trained pilot?

As you can see, the opinions are divided on this subject. I am not going to give my opinion. I think that my best advice to you, Bob, is for you to study the subject of gyroplane aerodynamics and stability and decide for yourself if your own gyroplane meets your comfort level. You would have to speak with people who understand gyroplane stability. Learn what makes a gyroplane stable. Learn about PIO and PPO. There is no magic and the theory is pretty easy to grasp. Unfortunately, there are no good books on this subject. Don't take people’s advice (i.e. "yes, you bet your gyro is super safe" or "all RAFs stink") without having a good understanding of the subject.

Hope this helps.

Udi

LARRYEBOYER

07-07-2004, 11:50 AM

Udi, I believe what you are saying is that the aerodynamics of the aircraft overrides the experience of the pilot who controls the machine.I flew an Air Command that was aerodynamically a CLT machine. The RAF I fly with the LM stab is not aerodynamically CLT.Yet I would not want to go back to the AC to get better flying/handling charistics.I am flying in winds now that would have mentally grounded me before.My machine flies perfectly stable.I have no pitch issues in the conditions I have flown in.I must admit I have not flown it in a hurricane or tornado, or flew it in a desert with death defying thermals, but I have 85 hours of solid, controllable non eventful hours. I have been hit with wind gusts that pushed the nose up hard. No worry as the Aussies say. A little back pressure and it flew right out of it. incidently, I had the same thing happen in the Air Command. I used the same technique. My experience has been that a CLT machine can pitch up or down just as a non CLT. What
the end result is is up to the pilot who pushes and pulls the controls.Gegg Gremminiger wrote a excellent article discussing that it is more than CLT that makes a solid, stable flying machine. Udi, I don't know if you ever flew in a RAF with a stab, but if you did and you let your technical knowledge and bias on the ground in a properly stabbed Raf, you would understand what Stan, others , and myself have experienced. A truely stable, fun flying well designed machine. Add a stab. It it solid. Add a stabalator, probably better?
Do a keel change and reduce the high thrustlline, better over what? Well it is aerodynamically better now.But does it fly any better in the conditions you are willing to take it into. I can't speak for Stan, but for the conditions I fly in, a stab is fine. But keep this in mind. Thousands and thousands of hours have been sucessfully flown without a stab. I feel better flying with one, but it does't make it any safer for me if I push or pull the stick the wrong direction at the wrong time. Training ,a good preflight, proper maintainence, and flying in good weather conditions will insure a safe flight regardless of the aerodynamic configuration of CLT or HTL. Whether you buy or fly a RAF is apsolutely immaterial to me. I do not sell them. I own two. Then again I have two Subaru cars. I bought them for the same reason. Reliable and safe.

ben

07-07-2004, 01:41 PM

larry b that is surly a mouth full ha ha ha . i have flown 2 rafs one with a stab larry boyers witch is one sweet ship. and the one i train in, both are solid ships.

Udi

07-07-2004, 02:39 PM

Udi, I believe what you are saying is that the aerodynamics of the aircraft overrides the experience of the pilot who controls the machine.

Larry - all I said was that Bob should learn the subject and decide for himself. This is experimental aviation and there are no guarantees.

Training ,a good preflight, proper maintainence, and flying in good weather conditions will insure a safe flight regardless of the aerodynamic configuration of CLT or HTL

Now that is a bunch of hogwash. How many more statistics do we need in order for people to realize that some designs are safer than others? Go to the NTSB website and check the statistics! I am SURE that your gyro is safer than a stock RAF; aren't you??? This is true for all aircraft, some are safer than others. Of course training, maintenance and operation make a difference. But some aircraft are inherently safer than others.

Look - I have no doubt that you enjoy your gyro and believe that it is very safe. Stan, Henry and others believe the same. Jim Logan and others believe the same for the stab-less RAF. I am glad that you like your gyro and I sincerely hope that you have many more years of safe flying. All I say is that people should not take your, or my, word for it, they should learn the subject and decide for themselves. What's wrong with that?

Udi-

StanFoster

07-07-2004, 04:35 PM

Bob: My advice to you .......just e-mail....call.....talk to in person....people who have lots of experience in whatever you intend to fly. It helped me immensely as there are a lot of real satisfied RAF pilots out there.

I can honestly say after logging over 80 hours now...I am one more very satisfied RAF owner. Winds are not even an issue.

Stan....one very satisfied RAF/stab owner. :D

Harry_S.

07-08-2004, 10:17 AM

Good post Stan. Most all gyro's fly a little different than others...even among the same models.

A newbie, or a gyro owner looking to change models, should most certainly contact owners and/or previous owners of the model he's interested in. I know I did!

Dean_Dolph

07-08-2004, 11:10 AM

Bob, what Udi is saying makes good sense.

Gyro owners choose their machines for a variety of reasons I suppose, but I don't think anyone completely loses sight of the fact that first they want to get up and back down with both pilot and machine in one piece.

My personal belief is that visiting these Forums and studying what is presented until a comfortable level of understanding is reached is the most valuable excercise you can do. Calling and checking with pilot owners on their experiences and opinions is another part of the educational process. However I've come to the conclusion that we have a number of people that are in denial and consequently talking to them is like the blind leading the blind.

In the end you are the one responsible.

Harry_S.

07-08-2004, 11:54 AM

Oh, Oh, Dean. I really don't know how to partially quote a small portion from a paragraph, so I will type it out here.

I was in agreement with your post to Bob, until I read this part..."However, I've come to the conclusion that we have a number of people that are in denial and consequently talking to them is like the blind leading the blind."

If I may ask, Dean; who are the people in denial and in denial of what?

Cheers

Dean_Dolph

07-08-2004, 01:53 PM

Harry, if I identified those I believe are in denial they would deny it! And If I have to explain what they are in denial about then this Forum hasn't been doing the job I thought is was. If this sounds like I'm being evasive then, yes I am! And I'm not even a politician! It serves no purpose to stir a pot that has been well stirred. I just wanted to reinforce what Udi had stated, in so many words, about Bob being responsible for his education.

Oh yeah, if you want to have a quote show up in your post without retyping then click on the 'Quote' at the bottom of the message. This will open a window with the 'tags' in front and at the end of the quote. You can split the quote (or delete parts) up by copying and then pasting the 'tags' from the 'edit' menu where you want them. And of course you can typeg them in.

There must be a opening and closing tag for it to show up. You won't see the quote unless you do a submit, or like I do (can't seem to get things right on the 1st pass!) and preview it first.

StanFoster

07-08-2004, 05:13 PM

I just want to try to add something in a kind way. :)

Ever since I have been on these forums...there have been the RAF/ HTL Air Command bashers......and the ones that fly these machines with no problems.

I understand the benefits of CLT and have never argued against it. The AAI SparrowHawk is the ultimate machine in my book...but in my case I am having absolutely no handling characteristics that bother me in the least. I cant say how relaxed I am while flying my RAF.

It seems though that the ones that do fly the RAF's / HTL Air commands either do so quietly...or if they try to speak their honest opinion..then they are in denial. It gets kind of tiring and thats why most of the RAF pilots remain silent and just go about their lives happily flying their machines.

Like Harry so to the point asked....In denial of what?

I am not denying that the CLT machines are the best....

My honest opinion is that there are several people in denial that we RAF pilots can not possibly be experiencing a pleasurable handling machine.

Not trying to stir the already swirling pot...but I am rather close to jumping into the happy but silent RAF club. :D

Stan

GyroRon

07-08-2004, 05:56 PM

There is a difference between a good flying, sweet handling fun, Stable Feeling gyroplane that can still jump out and bite you if you mess up under the wrong cirmustances and one that is all of the above and yet will NOT jump out and bite you under those same cirmustances.

Anyone looking to get into gyroplane flying who doesn't totally know or understand the difference between these two machines needs to know the facts between these two types of machines.

We all know that a Stab equipped RAF can and will be a blast to fly. Is it stable??? Sure to a degree. But can it still buntover due to the high thrustline??? YES it can and it has, even with a stab. But the bottom line is it can still be flown and with a decent, acceptable level of safety.

No doubt about it. I would get sick and tired of my choice of machine getting dogged out too. I already get this " treatment " from 90 percent of the fixed wing people I come into contact with, so I know how it feels.

GyroRon

07-08-2004, 06:10 PM

And there is no reason to view a RAF with a stab as a bad machine, or a very dangerous or unstable gyro. As I have said to Bob in private email and to Stan in private email, if I were to decide I wanted a RAF type gyro - I couldn't afford new so that means I would be looking at Used RAF 2000's - I would put on a good Stab, and do the rod ends and so on and fly the piss out of it.

But at the same time, I know and I would be quick to point out to anyone else that even for ME, the CLT set up is safer and better all around.

I can't speak for other people, but the only reason I would say anything that might be taken as a negative towards these machines is for one reason only. One is to educate the owner of the benifits of CLT over the HTL. Maybe the owner already knows this stuff and I am wasting my time and his. Maybe the owner doesn't want to hear it and again a waste of our time. OR maybe I do plant a seed that grows into the owner coming to the conclusion that even he is better off with CLT - which ultimately eliminates the most common and most lethal trait a gyro can have which is a ability to do a power pushover or bunt over.

Last thing I will mention is my believe that talking to the owners of any make and model of anything will be a good thing but not the only thing a person should do when looking into something. Think about it.... wouldn't most people rather brag about how nice their whatever is, how they enjoy it so much and so on, rather than say it is a piece of garbage and you shouldn't get one too? It doesn't matter if it is trucks, cars, motorcycles, airplanes, airplane engines, Gyroplanes, fishing poles, underarm deodorant, etc....

StanFoster

07-08-2004, 06:57 PM

Ron: Those last posts of yours were good and balanced. Couldnt agree with you more.

gyroman

07-09-2004, 04:28 AM

Ron,

Really good posts, I think the real issue most people have is not with an RAF that is using a Stab. It is with the company itself. Their views of not accepting the stab as a needed item is what pisses people off. Then some high time pilots may argue that it doesnt need a stab, then try to preach that to the new pilots, this is the next thing that really pisses people off. Just look at the NTSB stats for gyroplane accidents over the past few years and you'll see a common item (aircraft comes apart in flight, marks on tail, classic PPO.)

I think the RAF pilots who have a stab and preach the difference between stabbed and non stabbed as night and day are doing a great service and have probably saved a few lives in the process.

I do however feel we need to make the point that the stab (based on calculations) will not correct the HTL in certain extreme situations. I think this is vital info for some new pilots who do not have the skill that others do. The other fact which I pointed out earlier is the problem with high time fixed wing pilots jumping in an RAF (even with a stab). Most everyone seems to agree the built in reactions of fixed wing flying is what may have got Mr. Northam so I feel we should make that point heard as well.

If a high time RAF pilot without a stab likes his machine I say great show us some pics and tell us the experiences you've had. I love reading flying tales. Just keep in mind you have a learned skill flying a HTL gyro and others do not have this skill yet and you really need to let new pilots know this would not be a good first aircraft for them unless they do the stab, or AAI conversion, etc.

Now the engineering folks will probably have a problem because it just doesn't make sense from an engineering standpoint to fly a machine with the forces out of whack, and this just makes them scratch their heads cause they don't see the logic in it. They see the the energy that is wasted with the opposing forces, (stab fighting the pushover from the prop) plus the danger that can pose and it just doesn't make sense... I think you will always find this, people who just love to fly no matter what they're in and people who analyze how something flys and point out what is wrong and want to correct it.

I say thanks to Stan and don't go silent, please keep the pics coming, keeps the dream alive...

Harry_S.

07-09-2004, 05:43 AM

A really well thought and well written post Toby.

Oh boy, I'd like to jump in here and state a few of my opinions...based on lots of years and lots of hours of gyro experience...but it would further roil the pot.

The HTL theorists roll on.

PS Some of my past gyro experience has been scary. I'm older now and don't want anymore scary stuff. I'm rather content with my "stab'd RAF."

Udi

07-09-2004, 08:34 AM

Good post Toby! I guess I fit the "engineers" type in your description. Hmm... Maybe that's because I AM an engineer? I agree with everything you said. The only thing I would like to add is that I see no reason, other than ignorance, for anyone to buy a new RAF today. If you want to build a RAF, buy the properly engineered Sparrow Hawk.

Udi

gyroman

07-09-2004, 10:10 AM

Udi, I guess you could call me one of the "engineering" types too. Matter of fact I think we all are to an extent. If not, we would still be sitting on a rock trying to rub 2 sticks together for a fire. I think its only human nature to try to think of better ways of doing something, maybe that's the reason the RAF thing is such a big issue.

I, like you, see no reason in buying a new RAF. The price on the RAF webpage says it lists for $25,500, the AAI model lists for $27,870. I see no reason why someone would purchase a new RAF and have to add a stab for $1000. I can easily understand buying a used RAF and adding a stab (if the price was right) but not if I wanted an new gyro.

StanFoster

07-09-2004, 05:53 PM

Udi and Toby.....good posts. I would also buy a new Sparrowhawk kit over a RAF....thats a no brainer. Even if the SparrowHawk was $5000 more it still is a no brainer.

In my case...I stumbled upon a partially completed RAF2000...it was a recently purchased kit with almost all the upgrades. I ended up with a real nice brand new RAF that was a super bargain as well.

If I had only known how satisfied I was going to be with it....it would have really made working on it much more enjoyable. I had to learn to trust the several RAF pilots that I kept in touch with that I would do just fine.....as long as I had a good stab... :D

I had no intentions of flying it without training...but the transition from my Air Command was more confusing than anything. Confusing in that I was constantly perplexed by what I had read. I soon just completely relied on high time RAF pilots and the seat of my pants to put my trust in. It has been a very uneventful 85 hours in it since Feb. 29th when it received its airworthiness certificate.

I would eventually like to own a SparrowHawk...but to give up what I have now and to have to double my money outlay....I am going to run mine for several years first. :D

Stan

birdy

07-09-2004, 10:21 PM

Dean said,
However I've come to the conclusion that we have a number of people that are in denial and consequently talking to them is like the blind leading the blind.

Harry,I reckon I know one of the people he's refering too. :D :D

But denial is'nt the right word.I thought that I mite have something to offer[if nothing else,a different point of view]to the forum and newbys from my experiance flying in different situations to most.[maybe I'm on the wrong forum] :confused:

KenSandyEggo

07-09-2004, 10:34 PM

www.aussieswhothreatentoleaveandwill
gettheirasskickediftheydo.com

birdy

07-10-2004, 01:22 AM

HA HA HA,You sucked me in that time Ken :D .I clicked on the blue line but nuthn happened ,duh,very clever. :) Don't say much for the inteligence of the Oz cow grower ay??Thou I'm definatly not a true reflection of the typical Oz cow grower. :(
The S in SCG stands for simple,for good reason. :D

Harry_S.

07-10-2004, 08:36 AM

:) :)
Maybe we could start a new thread...Birdy's Experiences and/or Maneuvers...restricted to gyro pilots with a minimum of 100 hrs. and paid-up double indemnity life. ;)

KenSandyEggo

07-10-2004, 09:00 AM

It should have all been blue, but it wouldn't fit on one line. You better stick around, Birdy. You bring a refreshing element to this place that is unique, entertaining, educational and insightful.

LARRYEBOYER

07-12-2004, 07:00 PM

If an engineer put his education to work on a bumble bee, he would conclude the bumble bee can't fly. Yet who can argue that it can't when you see it happily buzzing along.The RAF has a HTL. It can be safer and a joy to fly with a stab in the right trained hands. I am a low time pilot, so I don't know whether it flies ok or not.Many Raf pilots think it does in spite of the folks that say it can't because of its design. I had a clt Aircommand. Being low time, I didnt know it flew ok either. It seemed to.In fact both seem to.Sinse The Sparrow Hawk is CLT like the Air Command. Can I conclude that from an engineers perspective, one aircraft should be as safe and stable as the other given that the aircraft is in like good condition and both have CLT?. If that conclusion is yes, then why do I feel the Raf doesn't fly any better or worse than the Air Command.I guess it is my lack of experience. The bumble bee flies regardless of the learned opinion of engineers who say it can't. THe RAF flies solid and stable inspite of the engineers opinion that it can't.I am glad the engineer is wrong about the bee. Could the same mistake be made on the RAF?
PS.
Stan, you need to quit saying that your RAF is stable or winds are no problem.You only think that. According to engineers evaluation of the RAF,It is not possible.If you will stop enjoying your machine so much, I will try to tone down my elation also.

GyroRon

07-12-2004, 07:22 PM

Larry you can get a good stable " feel " out of a HTL machine. You can also get a bad "feel" out of a CLT machine too. I have flown some CLT machines that weren't all that impressive. CLT isn't all that is needed for a stable, smooth - and as Stan puts it - and comfortable ride. All CLT does is eliminates some of the wastes of energy of the rotorblades, and stab if your using one, trying to balance out the trust offset... And true CLT makes a Buntover not possible. CLT does NOT make any gyro, with any combination of blades and parts fly like what your expecting.

Your old Aircommand could have had problems due to the blades you were using... you could also have not had the control throws right. Maybe there was more to it than that, or it was just your being very low time still.

Your RAF is a better COMBO of parts and components perhaps. It's combo of parts and how they are assembled may be the reason your getting such a great "feel" flying it. BUT.....

This is not the reason for CLT. Not to get a better " feel " out of a gyro. - although in most cases I would bet CLT will give a better feel.

CLT is IMHO a must only for the elimination of PPO or Buntover. If it flys great with a comfortable " feel " then that is a bonus. but knowing my gyro is not going to do a forwards flip and kill me is all the comfort I need.

StanFoster

07-12-2004, 07:31 PM

Guys: I am just going to keep my thoughts of how my RAF flies to myself from now on. :) Its not worth it and the only person I need to satisfy is myself. It just seems its like I am throwing a grenade in a room and leaving when I comment.

I want to get a ride in a SparrowHawk at Mentone and give my seat of the pants evalutation. Even though I like my RAF...I am sure I will like the SparrowHawk even more so. In what areas...I will find out. :)

Stan

birdy

07-13-2004, 01:38 AM

No Stan ,don't stop stirring the pot mate,your thoughts and pix are thought provoking and educational.Wether you intend it or not,it's a benifit to this [sumtimes] dull forum.
Everyone has something to offer and when it's offered it's appreciated.[by me at least]

Gyropilot007

07-13-2004, 06:03 AM

Well, now you guys have me thinking about this issue once again. And I haven't got even one hour on my RAF yet.

I want a safe stable machine. After reading many articles and comments and talking with a few current gyroplane pilots I have come to the following conclusions.

I believe the RAF can be a very safe machine when flown by a properly trained pilot. I think the addition of a suitable horizontal stabilizer is a no-brainer.

Regarding CLT, I think it is a good characteristic to have, but not entirely necessary if the pilot has the proper training.

These are only my opinions based on quite a bit of reading and talking with pilots. Although I have about 450 hours in fixed wing aircraft I have zero hours in gyros at this time. I hope to fix that VERY soon.

Bob McGuire

GyroRon

07-13-2004, 11:50 AM

Bob, a properly trained pilot can fly the most wicked, un-stable, least forgiving, death trap of a gyro for thousands upon thousands of hours. But last time I checked we - including you and myself and everyone else that might consider flying any aircraft - are HUMAN and prone to make a mistake, slip up somewhere, or just get caught in a situation while distracted, etc... IOWs $hit happens.

some of the high time guys flying these questionable gyros do have lot's of hours. but then again there has been several that bit the big one and are no longer with us too. I know there has been several accidents that involved low time students, and guys who never got any training too, But there has been lot's of others who were very properly trained that got hurt or killed too.

Your summary above is fine and is probably the one I would post myself if I were to consider owning and flying a gyro like yours.

But don't think for a skinny minute that all the training in the world - and the luckiest rabbits foot on the keychain and anything else that anyone might count on to insure that every flight will be problem free - is all it takes to fly a machine that is obviously inherently unsafe.

It is not a case of if you get a ton of training and finally log " X " number of hours your in the clear, my point is anyone flying a HTL machine, no matter how many hours is flying a machine that is unquestionably more dangerous and can and will kill you if you allow it.

It comes down to risk verses reward I guess, and money perhaps. Once again I am not slamming RAFs with Stabs, and not slamming folks that choose to fly them that way. I would be doing the same thing most likely - cause of the money factor not cause I am betting that I will never screw up.....

Good luck and keep us posted as you build, train, and fly your machine.

GyroRon

07-13-2004, 12:00 PM

Just needed to add to my above post that the RAF with a stab is not the type of gyro I describe in the first paragraph.

Chuck Irby

07-13-2004, 02:56 PM

I must agree with the point Ron is trying to make. I believe that even Birdy would have to agree with Ron on this one. I think you made a good and valid point, Ron. If one compares the track record of CLT machines to those of the non CLT machines, I believe he must also agree.

Aussie_Paul

07-13-2004, 07:24 PM

Ron and Chuck Irby, that says it all!!!!!!!!!!

Aussie Paul.:)

birdy

07-13-2004, 09:58 PM

No argument from this little black duck.
Why would I,I never have along those lines.
Not only the track record Chuck, clt is logical.

Chuck Irby

07-14-2004, 03:31 AM

Thank you, Aussie Paul, for your conformation. However, we all knew already that you were in agreement with us. ;) ;)

Chuck Irby

07-14-2004, 03:38 AM

Thank you Birdy. I don't remember a single time where I have disagreed with an opinion of yours. I sure would like to be able to fly with you sometime. I believe you would have really enjoyed flying with Da Screw, Ron, Scott and me this past weekend at Scott's.

Gyropilot007

07-14-2004, 05:10 AM

O.K. guys, call me thickheaded but I would like for you to elaborate on your opinions. Are you saying that you would all prefer to fly a machine with centerline thrust? Are you saying that center line thrust is essential to safety? Please answer in a clear and concise manner. The bottom line is that I would like your opinions on how critical center line thrust is to the safety of a gyroplane.

Thanks,

Bob McGuire

gyroman

07-14-2004, 06:39 AM

Bob,

I don't think you'll find anyone now on the forum that disputes the fact that a CLT gyro with a good HS is the SAFEST and most EFFICIENT design for a gyroplane. I believe all manufacturers should strive to make any modifications to their designs to achieve this. We should always be striving to make things better and safer, does anyone dispute this? As Aussie Paul says, "It is just as easy to build a stable gyro as it is to build an unstable one"

That being said, there are many older designs that are not CLT that fly in their current configuration safely with the modification of adding a HS stab, and/or keel mod, and good training / experience.

LARRYEBOYER

07-14-2004, 10:52 AM

Gyroron. I liked your comments.Diligense while flying is ultra important. It doesn't matter what machine you are talking about. My father said to me when I was a teenager and purchased my first motorcycle" Lose respect for the bike and you will bite the dirt." I have the stone chips still in the palms of my hands from showing off. My guardian angel even gave up on riding with me after some dumb moves that in one case destroyed a dirt bike and whiped out 3 locust fence posts. Or having a ATV roll down the mountain and settle at the bottom in a trail of parts that started half way down.All from an atitude of "I am invincible!" Fly what you like, but have the training in type and an indearing respect for what can happen and anticipate that it will. Train yourself through practice so the response needed is on auto.
My biggest fear is an engine out. As I fly I am always looking for the right field to put down. Last night I shot engine off(throttle back to 2000) approaches and landings. I want to be able to flair and stop dead in my tracks. I am almost there. The better I get the better I feel about that dead engine issue.I do have it on auto concerning quick nose up or down pitches. With the old stab. I had it happen a couple times. I have not had any issues since I put the new larger stab on. But, if I do I'll instantly pull the stick the right direction!