Tractor Gyro & Sport Pilot

[Chuck Roberg]

I received an email from one of the posters here about adding the Tractor Gyro set to his S/P Gyroplane rating.

This brings up a point I did not think about before. But according to 61.323(a) you must receive ground and FLIGHT training in the set of aircraft you want to add.

So unless you hold a Recreational rating or higher in any other category of aircraft. Then your stuck with 61.323 (a) below.

This is a big problem. Since I do not know of any 2-place tractor gyros that are available for training. This is a problem for anyone with only a S/P rating.

So even if you get a tractor gyro and teach yourself to fly. Carefull about the FAA here. A CFI could not ground observe you and give you the endorsement. A CFI would have to give you flight instruction first.

§61.323 How do I obtain privileges to operate a make and model of
light-sport aircraft in the same category and class within a different
set of aircraft?
If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek to operate a make
and model of light-sport aircraft in the same category and class but within
a different set of aircraft as the make and model of aircraft for which you
have received an endorsement, you must—
(a) Receive and log ground and flight training from an
authorized instructor in a make and model of light-sport aircraft that is
within the same set of aircraft as the make and model of aircraft you
intend to operate;
(b) Receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized
instructor who provided you with the aircraft specific training specified in
paragraph (a) of this section certifying you are proficient to operate the
specific make and model of light-sport aircraft.

[Alan_Cheatham]

Michael Guard has a Tractor Gyro S/P rating so somehow it's possible to get it without actually logging dual instruction in a two place tractor trainer.

[chuter]

My tractor rating was my initial rating and not an add-on; maybe that's the difference.

I trained in pusher gyros, was signed off to solo by an instructor who had at least 5 hours in the set I was going to fly (tractor), then I was ground observed for my checkride.

[WHY]

Hi Chuck

VERY VERY VERY good point, hopefully some of the two place LITTLEWING will be in service soon or perhaps some other two place maybe in the wood work. It will take a very dedicated person to pursue a tractor anyway as the construction of a full fuselage type is quite labor intensive as compared to the skeleton type frame.

But as you say at the moment it will take a Rec. certificate or higher to fly a tractor, but I think most of those may be private pilot rated at the moment although the Sport rating is definately the direction interest is going, thanks for the very informative post.

Tony

[WHY]

The first CFI to have a tractor to train in is going to have a very exclusive market !!!!!!!!!

Tony

[Chuck Roberg]

One of the reasons I posted this was to hear from other members. If there is a work around for this. I would like to know about it.

I reread thru the CFR's 61.300 section. I don't see how Michael got his rating the way the CFR's are worded. If you are a transitioning U/L pilot. Then I see how this would work for a single place machine.

Mike, was it Marty Weaver who you got your rating thru?

[Alan_Cheatham]

I just e-mailed the CFI that taught Mr. Guard to see if single place S/P tractor training is still available. I did this a year ago as it is my plan to build a tractor gyro and wanted to know if it is doable. At the time he said yes.

[JEFF TIPTON]

As I understand it with the tractor set for sport pilot it will not matter if the machine is side by side or tandem. This does give a little relief though not much.

Sport pilot sets
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/sport_pilot/media/aircraft_sets.pdf

[chuter]

I got the bulk of my training from Ron Menzie, then I got the 3 hour SP prep from Marty Weaver.

I believe Marty was the manager of the Sport Pilot division of the FAA program so I know he wouldn't have let me get through if it wasn't legal.

My gyro is experimental, so I took my training with Ron Menzie in his pusher, then he signed me off to solo. He had to have 5 hours in the same set as he was signing me off for, so he flew mine for 5 or more hours.

I then flew solo in my tractor until it was time to take my SP prep from Marty. I finished that and he signed me off to take the checkride (I think that's how it goes).

Then I was ground observed by someone from the FAA while flying my single seat tractor for my check ride.

[Chuck Roberg]

Thanks Mike, I still do not understand according to the wording how this was done. Maybe the FAA is making an exception in this case.

[WHY]

The only problem that I see in the near future (one or two years) is that at the present the Little Wing is the only tractor on the radar screen for a two place trainer and it is going to be somewhat limited in student weight and size as it is rather cozy inside with two people.

maybe this will inspire some new builder to build a larger more powerful two place tractor, remember Ron Herron's first experiment in the tractor design was using a modified Piper PA-11 fuselage. The possibilities are exciting.

Tony

[paulp]

Mr Roberg,

Look @ 61.45(f). This may answer your question.

Respectfully

[Chuck Roberg]

Look @ 61.45(f). This may answer your question.

I believe that was a go around for 61.323 for transitioning U/L pilots. These U/L pilots were being grandfathered in to S/P as per 61.329.

In many cases they were not required to take additional training. They were allowed to take the Proficiency Check in their "Fat" single place ultralight that was transitioned to ELSA or experimental.

[paulp]

Mr Roberg,

You might wish to refer to AC 61-65E(11-29-05) ref: item #9a:

A practical test may be conducted in a light-sport aircraft that has a single pilot station. The FAA believes that with certain limitations, it is appropriate to allow the practical test, at the sport pilot certificate level only, to be conducted from the ground by a DPE or an ASI.----------

In addition, items b thru j of item #9 also apply.

[kc0iv]

The only problem that I see in the near future (one or two years) is that at the present the Little Wing is the only tractor on the radar screen for a two place trainer and it is going to be somewhat limited in student weight and size as it is rather cozy inside with two people.

maybe this will inspire some new builder to build a larger more powerful two place tractor, remember Ron Herron's first experiment in the tractor design was using a modified Piper PA-11 fuselage. The possibilities are exciting.

Tony

Has anyone looked at the Wag-Aero Sport Trainer as a fuselage for a tractor gyro? They show a tack welded for around $6K and a fully welded for around $9K.

Leon
(kc0iv)

[WHY]

Hi Leon

You have hit the nail square on the head with a 10 lb sledge, Wag-Aero (and others) make several aftermarket fuselages that are just wating for conversion to a tractor style gyro. This however is not a "magic wand" job. Landing gear must be widened, rotor plyon must be designed and the tail will require noticable mods, but still, lot of the work of building is already done, Ron Herron would be a wealth of knowledge on this matter. You would already have a airframe that could handle up to 180 hp (O-360).

Proper design of the rotor pylon would be the BIG job because of the 2-per rev shake coupled with the heaver machine.

Tony

[kc0iv]

Hi Leon

You have hit the nail square on the head with a 10 lb sledge, Wag-Aero (and others) make several aftermarket fuselages that are just wating for conversion to a tractor style gyro. This however is not a "magic wand" job. Landing gear must be widened, rotor plyon must be designed and the tail will require noticable mods, but still, lot of the work of building is already done, Ron Herron would be a wealth of knowledge on this matter. You would already have a airframe that could handle up to 180 hp (O-360).

Proper design of the rotor pylon would be the BIG job because of the 2-per rev shake coupled with the heaver machine.

Tony

Thing I thought about using the Wag-Aero is it uses 4130 chromoloy.

The tail mod to me would be the biggest problem. How much shorter would the vertical fin have to be to clear the rotor?

I'm not sure I try to use a 180 hp but a 100-120 hp would fit the bill I would think.

Any way maybe someone will take a look at the lovable cub look-a-like.

Leon
(kc0iv)

[WHY]

Hi Leon

Either clip the rudder or look at the tail assembly on a Kellett KD-1 (twin low underslung, my favorite)

Tony

[WHY]

WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!! check out tye You-tube video on the "PIT BULL FOR SALE" post. Fantastic performance, however notice that he is landing and taking off on a large open grass field, I understand that the Pitt Bull has some ground handling shortfalls and some cross wind shortfalls, but these can be cured with some mods.

I personally woould want a larger HS with tip plates and for sure a steerable tail wheel plus diagonal braced main gear rather than wire braced main gear, but that might put it over weight for part 103

[WHY]

Anybody got any clues as to what kind of engine the Pitt Bull was using in that video, it looked like there was maybe a radiator under the cowl, but did not see the large two stroke muffler .

Tony

[autogiroschile]

Hello

I saw something about rotax 582 or 65 HP

Rene

[Brent_Brown]

Get a tri gear

[magilla]

Wag Aero Sport, and also "Lil' Buzzard" would make an exceptional gyro...two place tandemcopyof the J-3. 17k (Canadian) fully assebled without engine (or rotor), but you could probably get the price reduced considerably for no wings...

[Brent_Brown]

Kitfox convert

[WHY]

Hi Brent

The tri gear in the photo is Jim Eich and the JE-2. It was this very gyro that Jim told me he got into a flat spin with during a max climb take off.

He was solo and walked away from the crash, he determined that the flat spin started from P factor and once started he didn"t have enough altitude to get it stopped. Reason for the spin, he decided was the rudder was to small and shadowed by the fuselage and the distance from the prop to the rotor and from the rotor to the rudder is about equal 50/50. He said if he were to build another one he would make sure that the ratio was not so even, maybe 60/40 or more. I believe Floyd Brown (now deceased) , know as "Brownie" also had a JE-2 that he flat spun in also, so it should be taken into consideration that the tractor has certain design criteria that "must be met" just as the pusher has certain criteria if a safe design is to be built.

Tony

PS. otherwise the JE-2 flew great and performed well, I think the engine was a 85 or 90 hp

[Brent_Brown]

I have the plans for jims gyro and the rotor head in the plans is about 9" forward from what is in the photo. I guess he got fat and moved the head back. To me looking at the plans both seats can be moved forward some, this would help move the head forward. and twin rudder would be nice too.

This frame with the mast over the gas tank and flown as a one seater is best.

That is why I like the two place side x side Avid/ kitfox convert. the CG is forward 60/40 or more. tri-gear is the why to go.

[WHY]

Hi Brent

Sometime back I think someone posted the picture of a Piiper Tri-pacer that had been converted to a gyro, looked like they were using maybe some old Bell-47 blades, it was a in flight photo with two on board. Don't think it was a photo shop trick because everything was done right.

The tri gear will certainly be the easier to handle and take-off but they will sure be tall.

Tony

[Alan_Cheatham]

I talked to Ron Menzie on the phone today and he says he can still train for S/P tractor single place, so now it's time for me to stoke the boiler and bust out a LittleWing. I did this once before putting in 350 hrs of construction time on Matt Pearson's canceled LW5; building two LittleWing airframes in one lifetime, how lucky could a person be :(

[WHY]

Gee Alan, better build a jig, you could become popular !

Tony

[WHY]

One of the best articles from a hands on experience of handling problems of a small tractor gyro with the taildragger design would be the article written by Jim Eich back in the May 1991 issue of ROTORCRAFT (PRA). It details the problems he experienced and what he learned. It was on the little gyro he called the "squirell' , the model was XNJ790

Tony

[Brent_Brown]

Yes and it was converted to a tri gear and all was better.

[RockyMeLad]

I talked to Ron Menzie on the phone today and he says he can still train for S/P tractor single place, so now it's time for me to stoke the boiler and bust out a LittleWing. I did this once before putting in 350 hrs of construction time on Matt Pearson's canceled LW5; building two LittleWing airframes in one lifetime, how lucky could a person be :(

Alan,

Since it's not in your profile or sig. . .
where are you?

[Alan_Cheatham]

Dallas, Texas. And I'm also considerably older than the 3 years my profile previously indicated.:suspicious:

[WHY]

Hi Brent

About post # 31, I have usually tried to keep track of the tractor stories in ROTORCRAFT but must have missed the one where it was converted to tri-gear, where can I find this article?

Did Jim convert it or did Norm convert it, also have wondered what ever happened to the little gyroa/

Tony

[Airone]

Anybody got any clues as to what kind of engine the Pitt Bull was using in that video, it looked like there was maybe a radiator under the cowl, but did not see the large two stroke muffler .

Tony

Hey Tony
The engine is a Rotax 582

[RockyMeLad]

I did this once before putting in 350 hrs of construction time on Matt Pearson's canceled LW5; building two LittleWing airframes in one lifetime, how lucky could a person be :(

Alan,

You're only a long day's drive from here. . .
so you could build a frame for me. :rolleyes:

Then you'd be able to claim THREE!

[Brent_Brown]

I will have to look for it but I read it sometime ago.

[WHY]

Hey Jon (Airone)

That gyro you have in your avatar, did you design that, it looks like it was design around the "foldaplane technique". Make a few mods and you could go fly it, maybe with a HKS !!!!!!!!!!!!

Tony

[Alan_Cheatham]

Alan,

You're only a long day's drive from here. . .
so you could build a frame for me. :rolleyes:

Then you'd be able to claim THREE!

Well let's see, how can I reply to that........

[Airone]

Hey Jon (Airone)

That gyro you have in your avatar, did you design that, it looks like it was design around the "foldaplane technique". Make a few mods and you could go fly it, maybe with a HKS !!!!!!!!!!!!

Tony

Tony

I found this gyro in a 3rd party download for Microsoft Flight sim, its is the closest to a pitbull gyroplane with the mast in front of your view and it flys good.

[WHY]

Hey Richard Lidke

If you see this post , meet me down on the chat channel ,time is 8 pm 11-26-07

Tony

[Airone]

:help: The question was asked of me today, can someone with a sport pilot rating in fixed-wing, can they do a Sport Pilot Add-on for gyro's?

[Chuck Roberg]

The question was asked of me today, can someone with a sport pilot rating in fixed-wing, can they do a Sport Pilot Add-on for gyro's?

Yes. Per CFR 61.321
§ 61.321 How do I obtain privileges to operate an additional category or class of light-sport aircraft?

If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek to operate an additional category or class of light-sport aircraft, you must—

(a) Receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor who trained you on the applicable aeronautical knowledge areas specified in §61.309 and areas of operation specified in §61.311. The endorsement certifies you have met the aeronautical knowledge and flight proficiency requirements for the additional light-sport aircraft privilege you seek;

(b) Successfully complete a proficiency check from an authorized instructor other than the instructor who trained you on the aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation specified in §§61.309 and 61.311 for the additional light-sport aircraft privilege you seek;

(c) Complete an application for those privileges on a form and in a manner acceptable to the FAA and present this application to the authorized instructor who conducted the proficiency check specified in paragraph (b) of this section; and

(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from the instructor who conducted the proficiency check specified in paragraph (b) of this section certifying you are proficient in the applicable areas of operation and aeronautical knowledge areas, and that you are authorized for the additional category and class light-sport aircraft privilege.

[JEFF TIPTON]

Taken from the SPORT PILOT Practical Test Standards for
• Airplane
• Gyroplane
• Glider
• Flight Instructor

http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/test_standards/pilot/media/faa-s-8081-29.pdf

Proficiency Check—Sport Pilot-Satisfactory Performance when Adding an Additional Category/Class
Satisfactory performance of TASKs to add category/class privileges is based on the applicant’s ability to safely:
1. perform the TASKs specified in the AREAS OF OPERATION for the certificate or privileges sought within the approved standards;
2. demonstrate mastery of the aircraft with the successful outcome of each TASK performed never seriously in doubt;
3. demonstrate satisfactory proficiency and competency within the approved standards;
4. demonstrate sound judgment in aeronautical decision making/risk management; and
5. demonstrate single-pilot competence.
When an applicant is adding a category/class privileges to his or her Sport Pilot Certificate, the authorized instructor, upon satisfactory completion of the proficiency check, shall endorse the applicant’s logbook indicating that the applicant is qualified to operate the additional sport pilot category/class of aircraft. The authorized instructor shall forward FAA Form 8710-11 to Airman Registry within 10 days.

AREAS OF OPERATION
I. PREFLIGHT PREPARATION....................................... ....2-1
II. PREFLIGHT PROCEDURES........................................ ...2-6
III. AIRPORT OPERATIONS........................................ .........2-8
IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS.............2-10
V. PERFORMANCE MANEUVER......................................2-14
VI. GROUND REFERENCE MANEUVERS........................2-15
VII. NAVIGATION........................................ ..........................2-17
VIII. FLIGHT AT SLOW AIRSPEEDS....................................2-18
IX. EMERGENCY OPERATIONS........................................ 2-19
X. POSTFLIGHT PROCEDURES.......................................2-21

[Airone]

Thanks for all the info I will pass it on to my friend