A true ultralight gyroplane. [Archive]

View Full Version : A true ultralight gyroplane.

11-04-2003, 10:29 AM

The Butterfly is a true ultralight gyroplane.  You can see it on the web site at:   www.thebutterfly.info Larry Neal

GyroRon

11-04-2003, 10:49 AM

How close to the weight limit is this machine? Could you add a pre rotator and still squeeze under 254?

11-04-2003, 01:27 PM

Ron, The Butterfly comes with a pull start pre rotator and also a rotor brake.  It still only weighs 250 lb. Larry

GyroRon

11-04-2003, 11:55 PM

What is a pull start pre rotator? what kinda blades do you use as standard?

GyroRon

11-04-2003, 11:56 PM

Oh and is that a pump handle control system?

gyroman

11-05-2003, 02:49 AM

Can the pull start Pre rotator be purchased sepearately? How much does it weight? What's the cost?

dvs1

11-05-2003, 11:52 AM

Hey Larry, I really like the butterfly.  Also it seems that I remember reading somewhere that 254 minimums  is going to be raised, but don't remember how much.  Would it be possible to install an EJ-22 with the old gear reduction off an raf (redrive with jackshaft and bearing on back of shaft)?  Lower engine put re-drive above it,  and hopefully have a 4 blade prop.  (Would need 4 blade to slow engine rpms down to 5000 max 5100).  How much room would there be for prop circumference? Would the airframe hold that much extra weight and engine torque etc...?  It seems like I would have to lengthen the mast and the blades would have to be bigger, but would it be possible to make those changes to the butterfly?

11-05-2003, 02:44 PM

Hello all, The pull start pre rotator uses a Rotax pull start and belt drive system. *It weighs 8 lbs and I can get the Brock blades (which come standard with the Butterfly) up to 90 RPM with it. *Yes, it has a pump handle. I am working on a light weight belt drive pre rotator that will put about 5 HP to the rotor. *I can run Dragon Wings if this works well.  I can get the Dragon Wings started easy in no wind or steady wind but on a gusty day they are pretty cranky to start.   Sorry but I don't sell parts but only complete kits. *All the parts are designed especially for The Butterfly and shouldn't be used on other designs. The Butterfly isn't designed for a Subaru engine. *Sorry. The 582 version "Monarch" on the website only weighs 302 lbs and has lights, strobe, a battery (5.3 lb.), intake silencer, and after muffler. Thanks for the interest and questions. Larry *

Aussie_Paul

11-05-2003, 03:15 PM

Scott,  I am sure that most people would agree That the last thing you want is a Raf redrive with the 7 & 3/4" between the engine crank, and the thrust line higher. Aussie Paul.

Heron

11-06-2003, 08:40 AM

Hey Larry . . .glad to see you here!!! ;D Heron

Hognose

11-18-2003, 01:33 PM

I remember reading somewhere that 254 minimums *is going to be raised, but don't remember how much. Sad to day that the limit for Part 103 ultralights isn't going anywhere. There is a new Light Sport Aircraft coming (? sometime ?) as part of the Sport Pilot initiative. That allows fixed-wing a/c up to 1232 lb. I dunno what the limit is going to be for gyros (as far as I know it is not final) but I know that several 2-seater makers are hoping to have compliant machines. There is a requirement for a Sport Pilot licence and formal training from a certified instructor or BFI. Time you have flown in an ultralight gyro can count towards your Sport Pilot ticket. The Butterfly is a real ultralight. Larry's demonstrator is a beautiful machine with a lot of nice touches, it's a complete and affordable kit, and it is (and will remain) Part 103 legal. (Now, you could always register it and fly it as a licensed gyro instead, registered experimental/amateur-built, but then you have to comply with licensing and medical regs). It has centreline thrust and decent sized fins set in the propeller slipstream. It looks like Larry got some ideas from the early CLT Air Commands, but he has a lot of ideas of his own. I like the way he will not deliver w/o proof of satisfactory training... if we had more guys taking gyro training, we'd have fewer gyros reverting to kit form while inflight. -=K=-

donshoebridge

11-19-2003, 02:48 AM

***************************************** http://www.sportpilot.org/nprm/summary.html "The FAA currently issues two major types of airworthiness certificates-standard and special. The special airworthiness certificate includes six categories-primary, restricted, limited, provisional, special flight permits, and experimental. We propose to add a seventh category of special airworthiness certificate-light-sport. You could use aircraft issued a special light-sport airworthiness certificate for sport and recreation, flight training, or rental. The special airworthiness certificate would ensure that aircraft used for these purposes are designed and manufactured to an identified standard. The FAA would exclude gyroplanes for this certificate." http://www.sportpilot.org/nprm/sectional_analysis.html Definition of "light-sport aircraft" "This proposal would establish a new category of aircraft-light-sport aircraft that would include airplanes, gliders, gyroplanes, powered parachutes, lighter-than-air, and weight-shift-control aircraft. These aircraft fall between "small aircraft" as defined in current § 1.1 and "ultralight vehicles" as defined in current § 103.1. Helicopters and powered-lift aircraft would be excluded from the definition of light-sport aircraft due to their complex operation, maintenance, design, and manufacture.A light-sport aircraft would have a maximum takeoff weight of 1,232 lbs (560 kilograms), or a maximum gross weight of 660 lbs (300 kilograms) for lighter-than-air aircraft. These weight limits should accommodate a significant number of aircraft that are simple, low performance, and have no more than two occupants. These aircraft may be manufactured in the United States or another country." "A light-sport aircraft would have a maximum speed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of 115 knots. This limits the commanded kinetic energy of an aircraft flown by a pilot holding a sport pilot certificate. The FAA chose to use VH as the limiting speed for powered, light-sport aircraft as it is simple to verify during testing. The FAA believes that aircraft with a VH greater that 115 knots would be inappropriate for operation by persons with the minimum training and experience of a sport pilot, which prepares them for flying simple, low performance aircraft for sport and recreation. This value is consistent with light-sport aircraft airworthiness design standards adopted by other airworthiness authorities." "The definition of light-sport aircraft includes gyroplanes; however, gyroplanes would not be issued special airworthiness certificates in the light-sport category under proposed § 21.186. The FAA would issue an experimental, operating light-sport aircraft airworthiness certificate under § 21.191(i)(1) to existing gyroplanes that do not meet part 103 but meet the proposed definition of light-sport aircraft. Because gyroplanes could not be certificated under § 21.186, they would not be eligible for airworthiness certificates under § 21.191(i)(2) and (3). The FAA recognizes that this may limit the number and types of gyroplanes that a sport pilot may fly; however, the FAA notes that a sport pilot may fly a gyroplane that has a standard or special category airworthiness certificate provided the aircraft meets the definition of light-sport aircraft." "A gyroplane kit could not be an eligible kit, because a gyroplane would not be issued an airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under proposed § 21.186" http://www.sportpilot.org/nprm/proposed_rule.html (d) Rotorcraft category and gyroplane class privileges, 20 hours flight time, including 15 hours flight training in a gyroplane from an authorized instructor and at least 5 hours solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in section 53 of this SFAR,  (1) 2 hours cross-country flight training;  (2) 10 takeoffs and landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport;  (3) One solo cross-country flight of at least 50 nautical miles total distance, with a full stop landing, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and  (4) 3 hours flight training on those areas of operation specified in section 53 of this SFAR preparing for the practical test within 60 days before the date of the test. ******************************************* ??? Would someone please explain all of this legalese.  Thanks.

barnstorm2

11-19-2003, 11:44 AM

Someone please tell me I am getting this wrong. It is true gyroplanes will not be allowed to be registered as light sport aircraft?

Udi

11-19-2003, 11:52 AM

The way I read it, gyroplanes will not be permitted to be registered as light sport aircraft, but a light sport certificated pilot will be allowed to fly experimental gyros that meet the light sport aircraft definitions - i.e. weight and speed. Udi

Dean_Dolph

11-19-2003, 02:49 PM

Well gee, guys, if gyros aren't going to be included in the Light Sport Aircraft ruling then how do you explain  the gyro consensus standard team that has progressed to the point that they are working on their third ballot? There are several people that visit/post on Norm's conference, and here, that are on that team. It is headed up by Greg Gremminger, the PRA liason. I'm surprised that everyone isn't aware of this. They have been working on the consensus standard going on two years. All of the LSA aircraft groups are participating separately under the guidance of the ASTM, gyros are just a little behind. Nah, the gyro is going to be included eventually.

ahancock

11-20-2003, 11:02 AM

Does anyone know if a private pilot without a medical , but with a valid driver's license will automatically become a light sprt pilot, or  wiill he have to apply for it.?

donshoebridge

11-20-2003, 08:58 PM

If you follow the links from my earlier post, you might be able to find references/answers to your question.  I've read through the Sport Pilot stuff there a little, but my focus was on gyros so I never saw anything regarding medicals.  Sorry. Don

Chuck Roberg

11-20-2003, 10:58 PM

To ahancock If you have a valid pilots certificate and a drivers license you may fly under the Sport Pilot rules in a light sport aircraft with out a medical.

Hognose

11-22-2003, 06:28 PM

??? Would someone please explain all of this legalese. *Thanks. Plain english: EAA's sportpilot website is not up to date. Proof that there is ongoing work on the standard is here: http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/DATABASE.CART/WORKITEMS/WK1654.htm?L+mystore+gbiv9982+1069592170 That is where the standard will show up when it is completed. Here's the overall committee page, with the established standards downloadable as a Word .doc, and a lot of other good info available. This is the no-kidding site where the real facts live: http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/COMMIT/COMMITTEE/F37.htm?E+mystore I hope this helps. cheers -=K=-

rfi

01-09-2004, 07:53 AM

I remember reading somewhere that 254 minimums *is going to be raised, but don't remember how much.

Sad to day that the limit for Part 103 ultralights isn't going anywhere. There is a new Light Sport Aircraft coming (? sometime ?) as part of the Sport Pilot initiative. That allows fixed-wing a/c up to 1232 lb. I dunno what the limit is going to be for gyros (as far as I know it is not final) but I know that several 2-seater makers are hoping to have compliant machines. There is a requirement for a Sport Pilot licence and formal training from a certified instructor or BFI. Time you have flown in an ultralight gyro can count towards your Sport Pilot ticket.

The Butterfly is a real ultralight. Larry's demonstrator is a beautiful machine with a lot of nice touches, it's a complete and affordable kit, and it is (and will remain) Part 103 legal. (Now, you could always register it and fly it as a licensed gyro instead, registered experimental/amateur-built, but then you have to comply with licensing and medical regs).

It has centreline thrust and decent sized fins set in the propeller slipstream. It looks like Larry got some ideas from the early CLT Air Commands, but he has a lot of ideas of his own. I like the way he will not deliver w/o proof of satisfactory training... if we had more guys taking gyro training, we'd have fewer gyros reverting to kit form while inflight.

-=K=-
For the record, Larry Neal is the originator of the CLT Air Commands. --Don Parham

Hognose

01-27-2004, 06:21 PM

For the record, Larry Neal is the originator of the CLT Air Commands. --Don Parham

Oops. I should have know that. Now I do. Thanks Don.

And thanks, Larry. The old Air Commands gave the sport a bad rap. The CLT Ones restored the reputation of the machine and saved the company.

cheers

-=K=-