Gyroplane Crash - No Injuries!

[Rando]

http://www.ohionewsnow.com/?sec=&story=sites/ONN/content/pool/200708/846856742.html

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070812/NEWS01/70812029

[enewbold]

A pretty lucky young man! Here's the text of the accident from the links above:


A Temperance man who was flying a small homemade aircraft plunged into the Maumee River yesterday afternoon near the I-75 bridge when his gyrocopter got caught in the wind and somersaulted into the water, police said.

The pilot, Daniel Grochowski, 38, the only person onboard, was unhurt.

The crash occurred about 3 p.m., minutes after Mr. Grochowski fueled the propeller-driven, pontoon-mounted craft at Pier 75 Marina, Sgt. William Shaner said.

Mr. Grochowski was taken to shore by a boater with assistance from Toledo police officers. Toledo fire’s water-rescue crews and the U.S. Coast Guard also responded.

When officers arrived, Mr. Grochowski was wearing a life jacket that one of his friends in another nearby boat had thrown to him, Sergeant Shaner said.

Once in the water, the single-seat gyrocopter stayed afloat because of its yellow pontoons, albeit upside down.

A police boat dragged the craft to the pier, where it was hoisted to land by a boat lift.

Mr. Grochowski looked on at the pier as his bent and water-battered gyrocopter was lifted from the river. He declined comment.

Witnesses said the craft was moving eastbound along the river as it took off into the wind and then flipped.

Mr. Grochowski’s gyrocopter had just passed beneath the I-75 bridge.

David Paetz said that he and his 10-year-old son, Adam, were standing at the pier when the crash occurred.

“It seemed like he was taking off, and then all of a sudden you heard a splash,” Mr. Paetz of Lambertville said.

Adam said he heard the engine make a grumbling noise before the craft flipped, splashing water “almost to the top of the bridge.”

[Adam H]

That sucks for Dan! He usually flies in Michigan, I wonder if he was on vacation? After seeing his shop and his other projects, I'm sure his gyro will be rebuilt in no time.

[Timchick]

Wonder if his engine acted up and it resulted in a drag-over. Maybe float flying isn't as easy as it looked.

[GyroDoug]

I liked the line in the first article that said, "The FAA doesn't require a pilot's license for a gyro copter" There sure isn't a very high level of knowlede about Gyroplanes out there. We have really got our work cut out for us. I wonder if this Gyro was a legal ultralight or if it was one of the many fat ultralights that people have been flying illegally for years!!! As a sport, we really need to be careful to follow the rules and present a professional image if we want to be accepted by the rest of the flying community and by the public.

I'm really thankful he was able to walk away from the incident and we don't have another fatality. It would be good to hear more details if anyone knows the specifics about this case.

Gyro Doug

[dragonflyerthom]

It is great that he is alive. Albeit to fly again. Wonder how much his rotors were bent other than the one in the pic..

[C. Beaty]

Your friend joins select company, Randy.

The C-30 pictured bunted but was recovered by Cierva’s chief test pilot, Alan Marsh, who managed to switch off the engine and alight in Felixstowe, UK harbor without damage.

Ken Brock put a float equipped gyro in the bottom of San Diego harbor.

Bill Parsons put a float equipped gyro in the bottom of a lake in Central Florida.

[Rando]

I wonder if this Gyro was a legal ultralight or if it was one of the many fat ultralights that people have been flying illegally for years!!! As a sport, we really need to be careful to follow the rules and present a professional image if we want to be accepted by the rest of the flying community and by the public.

It would be good to hear more details if anyone knows the specifics about this case.Gyro DougI know some of the details, however I would prefer that Dan post the details in his own words.

I will say this, if/when you get caught violating FAR Part 103 you better have a good lawyer and deep pockets!

[WHY]

In some other threads, earlier there was some discussion on floats and gyro's, a number of comments were made that floats and gyro's dont't mix well.

I wonder if he "NOW" bellieves that ? Ultralite, if floats are exempt maybe, otherwise no way

Tony

[Rando]

In some other threads, earlier there was some discussion on floats and gyro's, a number of comments were made that floats and gyro's dont't mix well.

I wonder if he "NOW" bellieves that ? Ultralite, if floats are exempt maybe, otherwise no way

TonyDan has been flying his gyroplane successfully on floats for several years. This was not a "bunt over". He was in the process of taking off and was hit by a rather large wake from a passing boat.

[Vance]

I will say this, if/when you get caught violating FAR Part 103 you better have a good lawyer and deep pockets!

Hello Randy,

What are the penalties for violating part 103 and flying illegally?

Thank you, Vance

[Ralph]

First of all, any powered aircraft flying under Part 103 can have an additional weight allowance up to 30 pounds each for a pair of floats, resulting in a total dry weight of up to 314 pounds.

Second, floats will lower the vertical CG of any gyro (compared to conventional wheels). Most of the thrust-line/vertical CG misunderstanding has arisen because it is possible to fly a high-thrust-line machine with no stab and to do so for years if you are both skilled and lucky. How long you can do so and get away with it is no guide to how sound the idea is in engineering terms. This applies equally to floats.

Third, water is an ever-changing surface! Experience float pilots will tell you that you never take off or and on the same runway twice! There are lots of hazards you would not expect on land, including waves and floating objects

Finally, rotors and water do not mix well. If you do get dumped by a wave or anything else, if your blades are spinning the damage can be substantial.

I honestly don't think that gyroplanes and floats are a good mix. That said, I don't like to see nasty things happen to any pilot, least of all to prove that one of us was "right or wrong". The laws of physics are not susceptible to our personal opinions and, in the end, nature trumps opinions every time!

Ralph

[Ralph]

Vance,

Penalties (per FAA Advisory Circular AC 103-7 (11.c.))

If the FAA Determines Your Ultralight Was Not Eligible for Operation as
an Ultralight Vehicle If your ultralight does not meet 103.1, it must be
operated in accordance with applicable aircraft regulations. You will be subject
to enforcement action ($1000 civil penalty for each violation) for each operation
of that aircraft.

Ralph

[Vance]

Thank you Ralph,

That answers my question perfectly.

I like to quantify things.

Thank you, Vance

[Joe Pires]

Vance,

Penalties (per FAA Advisory Circular AC 103-7 (11.c.))

If the FAA Determines Your Ultralight Was Not Eligible for Operation as
an Ultralight Vehicle If your ultralight does not meet 103.1, it must be
operated in accordance with applicable aircraft regulations. You will be subject
to enforcement action ($1000 civil penalty for each violation) for each operation
of that aircraft.

Ralph

Hmmmm thats a lot cheaper than the cost of getting legal.

[brett s]

Nope - remember, $1000 per violation! So every time it flew it's running the meter up...

[Doug Riley]

When pricing this out, remember that flying a "fat ultralight" often involves several violations per flight. The machine must have a current airworthiness cert, registration, N-number display and so on. The pilot must have a current BFR, medical, and appropriate license and ratings. It can amount to several thou' per flight.

If you happen to HAVE a license, they'll also look at taking it away if your craft was illegal.

[Hognose]

Fines are trivial. The two words you do not want to hear from the FAA are "certificate action." That means they plan to suspend or revoke your airman certificate and you need a lawyer, stat. Do not act as your own attorney no matter how smart you think you are.

An attorney can often get a revocation reduced to a suspension, or a suspension reduced to a 709 ride (which is basically a rehash of your checkride for the affected rating, with a check airman from the FSDO).

Because flying an illegal aircraft isn't a skills thing the 709 ride is a hard sell. By the time they start looking in to you, even a good record with the FAA can't help you, because this moves out of the operations inspectors' purview, and into the hands of the FAA attorneys, "most of whom are not pilots -- they're just hacks who couldn't make it as lawyers in the private sector and have an attitude to begin with" -- that's a quote from a well-known local DE.

By the time you get the letter advising you to surrender your ticket or schedule an "informal conference", it's usually too late -- your goose is cooked, and the attorneys would lose face if they backed down now.

Dofin Fritts got busted for an illegal-aircraft violation (giving instruction in an RAF without the time flown off), and although he was as I understand it as cooperative as he could be, they revoked all his certificates and ratings. He was able to retest for them all after one year elapsed, except for the DE, which he won't be getting back. It was a largely paperwork violation, which he could have avoided utterly if he's just run up and down the runway balancing on the mains till he had the full forty on the Hobbs... and made the end of test period notation in the logs, staying within the letter of the law.

The corollary of what Doug says is also true -- if you don't have a license, all they can do is fine you. The FAA can't put you in jail, however much of a threat to public safety you are -- or their non-flying lawyers think you are. They can also put a long-lasting black mark on your public record that all kinds of people it's a drag to deal with will be very interested in: insurers, possible employers (again if you fly for a living), the NTSB (if you ever prang), and the plaintiff's bar (if, God forbid, you ever injure anyone).

But if you fly for a living, or depend on flying for whatever reason, "certificate action" should be a term that turns your guts to water... the easiest way to avoid it is to obey the freakin' regulations. To the letter. (This is not an area where you can successfully make the "equivalent level of safety" argument. Not after you're already busted). The regs're there for a reason, and many of them are in place because of a lesson someone had to die to teach us.

cheers

-=K=-

[JEFF TIPTON]

For those wishing to look at AC 103-7. I couldnot fing it on the FAA web site, but did find a copy at www.ultralighthomepage.com

http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/AC103-7/ac103-7.html

[NoWingsAttached]

I met Dan, and had the opportunity to inspect his aircraft and his floats at Mentone. It is quite likely his aircraft fits the ultralight category, and it is quite likely he is not required to have a license. His experience, innovation and abilities are legendary, and he appears to be the victim of a moronic power boater, not an improperly designed aircraft nor bad flying habits/skills. He is not a bad example for the gyro community, and there is no reason to condescend. Enough to just say, sorry you got hit by a wake from some stupid boater dude. Hope you have a fast recovery and enjoy flying again soon. It's great to have you in our community, so get right back on that horse and ride! Dan, get your AW Cert and registration QUICK, before time runs out!!!! THen get your SPL!!!!!! We need you to continue developing your float gyro concept!

[Resasi]

Taught seaplane in Bucanneers, saw the gyro on floats and having just started on the whirling wing was full of admiration for whoever does that.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Enough to just say, sorry you got hit by a wake from some stupid boater dude.

With all due respect, wakes from boats are something that is to be expected and also very easy to see......

......sort of like having a truck driving across a runway and still running into it.

Flying float planes, amphibians, gyros or any other aircraft on the water requires training and then awareness of the enviorment you are operating off of or landing on.

[Razzum]

Are you posting from sunny spain nowdays Chuck E ?

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

No, I am posting from my summer home on the west coast of Vancouver island where I keep my sail boat.

I am on a wireless dial up modem which is S L O W .

I will be flying to Athens sometime in the first week of Sept...

The President of AirSea Lines is in Vancouver and I will be flying to Greece with him as soon as he finishes his business in Vancouver.

[Jerry_Forest]

Your friend joins select company, Randy.

The C-30 pictured bunted but was recovered by Cierva’s chief test pilot, Alan Marsh, who managed to switch off the engine and alight in Felixstowe, UK harbor without damage.

Ken Brock put a float equipped gyro in the bottom of San Diego harbor.

Bill Parsons put a float equipped gyro in the bottom of a lake in Central Florida.

The point Chuck B. is making is that very experienced gyro pilots have trouble when they are on floats. In my 25 years of gyro flying here in Ontario (that's Canada not California) any gyro on floats has never survived (sometimes the pilot did). So, STAY AWAY FROM FLOATS!