Load em up?

[MrGrey]

Ok, I might get some flack for this but as a potential owner of a Xenon in the future I have to ask some questions regarding flight characteristics. I have had the pleasure of seeing the gyro at our home field in Lansing, IL and Mentone and it looks like it handles and flies well, BUT..... in terms of gyro pilots it has been flown more like an airplane and less like a gyro every time I have seen it. I understand the market for the gyro is geared more towards airplane pilots but, are we going to see how it handles when asked to perform? I would appreciate some more aggressive flying in the future to see how the machine would handle if put in to a hard bank (LOAD EM UP!), vertical descents, 180-360degree simulated engine outs etc. I am not insinuating dangerous maneuvers but situations where those maneuvers may be necessary. I know that the gyro is new and must take slow steps, but I feel that this gyro is going to be capable of great things. Watching Stan pilot his sparrowhawk at Mentone was awesome, and according to my calculations based on weight and power the Xenon should rival the Sparrowhawk in terms of performance.

[birdy]

Weight n power aint everythn, as i found out at the Oz nats.
The 914 Magni SHOULD be able to keep pace with most gyros with one up, but f$#@nell, it felt like it weighed a ton.
Itd be a shame if the Xenon is setup the same.
Like you say, if you want to fly like a FW, then fly a FW.

[StanFoster]

Mrgrey: Glad you liked my SparrowHawk demonstrations. I enjoy cranking and banking that thing around. But to tell you the truth...before I had ordered my kit...I had never seen one flown aggressively. Just the typical circus ride rectangle pattern.

It wasnt until Steve Mcgowan was on his own in his SparrowHawk at Bensen Days 2006 that I saw what this machine was capable of. I commented several times that thats how they should be demonstrated....show people what the thing will do. I was more pleased with my purchase after seeing Steve wind his SparrowHawk out....and then to experience it first hand with mine. I keep hearing "lead sled"...and if you fly it like a gramma....it will appear to be one. I dont think mine flys like a lead sled...at least to me.


Stan

[Harry_S.]

FWIW...The Xenon will show it's stuff in due time.

And...what's wrong with flyin' like a grandma, or if you will, a grandpa or even yet, a great or a great, great grandpa?! :wave:

Here's hopin' you young yanker and banker pilots can still do that stuff, later in life. I for one hope you can. ;)

PS...I still do a little of the Y&B. :p


Cheers :)

[TGehrs]

I flew with Chuck in the red Xenon and he did hard banks that just about left my drawers suspect but then being a great grampa what else is new.:lol:

[StanFoster]

I am sure the Xenon will wind like the rest of them....it will be nice watching it when it does. I will be flying mine like a grandpa soon....GyroJenny is due late December....its going to be a boy.



Stan

[Chuck Roberg]

I am sure the Xenon will wind like the rest of them....

Having flown both the Sparrowhawk and Xenon I can attest you can yank and bank them both the same. In a tight turn it seems you can turn them both in about one or two rotorblades diameter.

The only difference between the two, in my opinion, the Xenon has a lighter feel in the stick. Also because the Xenon is lighter, the whump whump sound of the blades as you crank into a tight turn will not be as loud.

[Timchick]

I think no matter how docile they're flown you still can't compare them to a FW. Nothing beats flying a rotorcraft. There's a world of difference.

[Heron]

My guess is that the conservative flying has to do with having only a few demo ships and not risking any mishaps.
I don't see why ships on the same category (wheight, disc, etc) will perform differently as fas as envelope.
thanks
Heron

[WHY]

I think also that from a manufactures stand point if one is aiming at the fixed wind market maybe you do not want to be to aggressive in the demos as this might make the FW boys a little nervous until they get a little better understanding of what a gyro can do.

Tony

[birdy]

I don't see why ships on the same category (wheight, disc, etc) will perform differently as fas as envelope.
If you ever get to fly a magni Heron, youll feel it.
The one i flew was lighter than me wasa, same power plant with shorter blades, but geez it was alot harder to 'throw bout' than me wasa.

[ventana7]

It is more the pilot than the machine. The truth is neither Scott or I have ever flown much in light machines and so we probably do less yanking and banking than gyro pilots familiar with very lite machines. Also I just don't believe in performing manuvers in front of the airport at Mentone where others are trying to fly a traffic pattern.

Chuck Roberg does more radical moves and he easily did 90 degree banks, wing overs, etc. Scott did lots of sideways flying, hovering etc when he did demos at Oshkosh and had the runway to himself.

Roy Davis who did demos at Sun n Fun flew it just like his single place and loved it.
Rob

[birdy]

It is more the pilot than the machine.
Rogb, im comparing machines.
You know the wasa, and no dout youv at least seen a Magni, but let me tell you, the wasa will run rings around a magni.

[Heron]

Birdy
I am aware of the Magni different handling and what Rob says about lighter gyros also makes sense.
But mostly is about piloting styles.
If you seen Larry Neal trow the Golden about you know that a heavy machine can do stuff . . .first time was plain scary seen that big rig laying sideways in the sky.
thanks
Heron

[Aussie_Paul]

IMHO Birdy is talking about "Heaviness" in the controlling of the rotor system, not how heavy the machine is. Do I know what you mean Birdy? :)

Aussie Paul. :)

[birdy]

You seem to be the only bloke who read wot i said PB. :)
Heron, it has nuthn to do with 'piloting styles', a machine thats hard/slow to manouver, is hard/slow to manouver no matter whos flyn it.
Like i said, the magni is lighter with shorter blades than me wasa, with the same power, but it wouldnt blow wind up me wasa, manouverability speakn. ;)

[Fl90]

Birdy, people that haven't flown differing rotor systems or stability packages have a hard time understanding what you mean. I've had difficulty relating the differing flight characteristics from changing mounting angles and component location, on the same machine. It can take three or four slight changes before I find the combination that uses the least power to fly. IOW, your talking over their heads, Professor Bird.

Phil.

[ventana7]

Birdy,

I understand what you are saying mate- and agree-- but you do not understand what I am saying.
You could get in the Xenon and make it dance and pirouete and do it 20 feet ofoff the ground because that is your style of flying. You have done thousands of hours of that.

I am comfortable doing 90 degree banks in the Xenon at 500 feet AGL. (and it does them easily)

If you got in the Xenon (make that when you get in Bones' Xenon) you will find it very manuverable and very light stick forces. Not as light or easy to fly as your feral but much lighter than your RAF I think.

Rob

[Heron]

Birdy
I understand what you said first time, just adding some other reason possible for the conservative flying.
I did not fly the Xenon but I think it is pretty lite and not Magnilike at all.
As time goes by . . . (tsc) we will see more flashy performances I believe.
thanks
Heron

[birdy]

IOW, your talking over their heads, Professor Bird.
Phil, mate, wot im sayn aint rocket science.
Either the controls are heavy or they aint.

You could get in the Xenon and make it dance and pirouete and do it 20 feet ofoff the ground because that is your style of flying.
Rob, wen/if bonsey lets me take his baby for a blap, ill let you know wot it flys like. ;)
If its as light as you say, then yes, it probably could, but a magni cant, no matter wot alt your at.
Im talkn bout the machines abilities, not the pilots, so it dont matter who's flyn it, a magni is hard mouthed.

[Timchick]

Birdy, Is it the Magni's control system that makes it fly like that or the way the Magni is set-up, ie thrustline, loaded stab, etc?

[birdy]

Buggered if i know Tim, i only took it for a blap, i didnt have much of a gander at it.
The TL wouldnt have any bearing on the ridgedness of the machine, but i recon the downloaded stab would a bit.
But most of the resistance comes from the cyclic leaverage, or lack of it.

[Fl90]

Posibly, a heavy bladed rotor as well. Any idea what the rotor weighs? If the leverage is low, would the reaction time be shortened, i.e., more degree movement at the rotor head for each inch of travel at the stick?

Phil.

[birdy]

I dout it Phil, the blades on me wasa are longer n heavyer.
iv flown different weight blades on the same machine, and the biggest difference is all to do with inertia [ heavy ones take longer to spin up/down] not cyclic response.

[Heron]

It seems it is on the cyclic responses (built in) to make it less jumpy.
I guess . . .
heron

[birdy]

Youd be gessn spoton Heron. :)

[Greg Mitchell]

G'Day Gents,

Heron, you've been reading Greg G's Magni rotor article..well done! How are you Grandpa? You are correct Heron watching Larry Neal turn the Golden Butterfly Tandem Trainer, inside out is spectacular! Being in it at the time (2/3's the real deal) is awesome.

Birdy and all,

Dont short coupled craft maneuver and react at quicker rates than tandems?
I think this has a large bearing on perceived performance.

Then TL's might have something to do with it as well.? I remember standing with Daj at Biggenden 2006, watching birdy fly Bones' Tall tail Owen single place (more clt) and wringing the neck out if it....You tube footage with audio. And then later Birdy did a demo in his 'wasa' which was no where near as aggressively flown. Wasa is a modified RAF.

So what has the thrustline got to do with it you might ask......Fear??:tape: Respect and familiarity in type does not mean you can turn that sucker any quicker or faster or more radically than your gyro or your 'fear factor' will allow. I have no doubt Birdy could ring the neck out of a Golden, a Magni and especially the Xenon and when Bones gives him the reigns I'd like to be there. I have been fortunate to see Birdy do flight demos in three different craft now. A moment in time of unbelievable amazement for most of us another day at the office for the 'Muster'.

Magni's are hard mouthed, I flew with Greg G at Mentone 2005. Greg G writes about the cyclic configuration in his article and tandeems are not as 'quick' as short couple machines, though I would not say less manuverable.

Looking forward to seeing Bones' Xenon is it arriving soon? Hey Rob. Hi to Dee.

My thoughts.

Mitch.

[birdy]

Dont short coupled craft maneuver and react at quicker rates than tandems?
Only marginaly Mitch.
Maneuverability is 20% power to weight, and 80% control leaverage.
Iv never said the Magni COULDNT be maneuverable. I said it isnt, in its present stock form.

watching birdy fly Bones' Tall tail Owen single place (more clt) and wringing the neck out if it.......................... then later Birdy did a demo in his 'wasa' which
Chalk n cheese Mitch, both in maneuverability AND power to weight.
They can do zactly the same thing, only the rate is dependant on power avalable.

So what has the thrustline got to do with it you might ask......Fear??
Iv never feared the TL of the wasa.
BUT, a centered TL will make for a more efficiant use of avalable power.

Magni's are hard mouthed
And thats the major reason they aint maneuverable.
I duno if you saw my attempt to fly the magni at Lammeroo Mitch, but i can tell you, you cant throw them things around.
If you could double the cyclic leaverage, i have no dout it could be [sorta] thrown about.
I, at one point, was at a 90* nose down att at bout 100' and still only had just enuf room to pull up before the ground. That, to my line o thinkn, is dangerously hard mouthed.
The wasa can be 90* nose down at 50' and still have room to spare.

[Heron]

Hey Mitch! How are ya?
Miss you my friend . . .
. . . and no I am not reading untill I can get my mind out of the way, so I can learn something.
As you know, since I saw my first gyro in the air my freaking mind went to work and I can't get it to stop and listen . . . :D
I lack the academics to figure out what I think I know and nibleing at our experts here is the best I can do right now!
If I can get back in the air, many answer will come to me, but . . :(
We broke several barriers these last 4 years and I am very pleased with the way things are going for gyros.
My dream gyros is now possible, tandem, enclosed, 100 mph + cruise and 3 hours range, under 40 g's.
Our friends in Texas added some extra perks: near zero T/O, landing with built in safety and roadable. Extra still the top speed close to 150 mph.
Sounds promissing!
thanks
Heron

[Greg Mitchell]

Birdy ole Mate,

I read what you wrote...PB wasn't the only one...I'm sure there were others.

I never said you said Magni's are not or could not be maneuverable.:sorry:

You did!:whip:

Hey but I know what you meant. But it's not what you said. Just like you know what I mean, despite the poor way in which I communicate my point of view or ask the questions.:p

"Magni's are hard mouthed
And thats the major reason they aint maneuverable.":help:

Late Night I know.:smokin:

Where do you get the figures? : "Maneuverability is 20% power to weight, and 80% control leaverage."

"Chalk n cheese Mitch, both in maneuverability AND power to weight.
They can do zactly the same thing, only the rate is dependant on power avalable."

So are they different as chalk and cheese or can they do exactly the same thing? I've never seen a RAF2000 or your 'wasa' do what you did 2006,2007.

I am not convinced it solely about available power because you yourself said 20% but 80% cyclic, so I'm getting more confused about your responses.

I never said you feared a HTL but others do! And they adjust/temper their flight envelope to suit. HTL machines do have an effect on pilot responses double jab etc, which is not required with CLT type machines. Just another thing to be learning/doing in a HTL not required otherwise........

You said..."BUT, a centered TL will make for a more efficiant use of avalable power."
Absolutely!:humble:

No Birdy I did not see you fly Michaels Magni. I am comparing your three flight demo's in my mind and on tape....and I can tell you Birdy you demo in the ‘wasa’ wasa nothin like in Boners (after having to endure ole Mates drunkenness whilst Peg catwalked a ‘teddy’ for him. Sad Mark very sad.:spy: )or Robbie's craft. Dont get me wrong here, it was impressive but not on the 'edge' like when watching you fly the others. This was not only my observation and granted the other guy is a newby too.;)

Why are you not coming to the next Nats?

Heron,

My good friend. I miss you too ole Mate. Are you in Florida or home in Brazil?
Stay in touch.

Cheers

Mitch

[birdy]

"Magni's are hard mouthed
And thats the major reason they aint maneuverable."help[I]
Mitch, its like comparen power steern to armstrong steern.

[I]Where do you get the figures? : "Maneuverability is 20% power to weight, and 80% control leaverage."
Outa me hollow head. ;)
Its like sayn a good mustern pilot needs 99% cow sence and 1% flyn ability.

So are they different as chalk and cheese or can they do exactly the same thing? I've never seen a RAF2000 or your 'wasa' do what you did 2006,2007.
Yes, they are different as chalk n cheese, in their RATE, coz of the power t weight discrepency.
They can phisicaly do the same manuvers; bank angles, turn radius, inertia hover, 180* stop and anythn else thats 'inertia related', but things like climb rate, duration between 180*s, number of continuous 360*s, min AS and anythn that requires lots of power will seperate the two.
Also, you gota remember, i wanted to find wot bonsey's machine could do, and me wasa was me taxi home. ;)

I am not convinced it solely about available power because you yourself said 20% but 80% cyclic,
Mate, anyone could do wot i did in Robbies machine, in sumthn that has JUST enuf power to climb at 12fpm. The difference will be the manuvers will have a strong virtical component, so you gota start with alota alt. It only looks more specy in a high power machine coz it can be don constantly at less than 100'.

I never said you feared a HTL but others do!
Bloodyell, for 2 ozzys we are haven alota trouble understanding each other. :)
I thought you was sayn i didnt sink the boot into the wasa coz i feared the HTL. ;)

and I can tell you Birdy you demo in the ‘wasa’ wasa nothin like in Boners

As i stated above, its phisicaly impossable for a fat pig wasa to do things at the same rate as bonsyes quarter horse.

Why are you not coming to the next Nats?
Im sulkn ;)

[GyroRon]

I have two videos saved on my computer of a guy in a Magni tearing it up over some fields - in France I think -

The Magni may have a heavy stick, but it can still be tossed around.

[Greg Mitchell]

Oyi Birdy,

"""Also, you gota remember, i wanted to find wot bonsey's machine could do, and me wasa was me taxi home. """" Funny snigger snigger.

I'm hearing you Mate, just winding you up. Late nights are catchin up.

What you sulkin about? Oh yeah, didnt you just turn 40 recently. Sad when you young blokes realise you're gettin old. **** I gotta start physio swimmin with a bunch a blue rinse set grannies, the grey beard gets me free entry...**** how old am I now!

G'Day Ron,

Is that the Yellow Magni, finishes up with some low level stuff around about the field then ..180 degree turns low onto final and drops it in? Some excellent country side. Good vid.

Mitch

[Heron]

I think that is in Belgium, going 2 check . . .
Mitch I just turned 56 and it feels good!
heron
yep Icarus Club http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I5OpvXbhbE

[birdy]

Geez Ronny, im hopen that link Heron posted isnt the one your thinkn of.

What you sulkin about
Coz. :)

[GyroRon]

Nope, that wasn't it. The gyro in my video is white and there is some funky music playing in the video, almost sounds like porno music. All the footage is taken with a onboard video camera.

The guy doesn't do as tight of turns as you do in your video there Birdy, but he does do some pretty nice cranking and banking in the video.

[Mike G]

Gyroron
Was it this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJxInU5mDGU

There isn't much cranking and banking compared to Birdys flying, but at a push, the music could be called porno.

As the owner of a Magni I agree with Birdy it's a dog to fly but for a low time gyro pilot like me better safe than sorry.

Mike G

[Fl90]

Now, just how is it you guys know what the music sounds like?

Phil.

[Passin' Thru]

Good grief! Is there now a genre of music known as "porno" music? :confused: :der:

[GyroRon]

Yeap, that is the video.... There is two parts, one of them he flys a bit more aggressive than the other. I think this one is the one where he flys a bit tamer.

As for the music.... Well, when I first heard it, all I could think of was a porno. Sorry! I guess I am just a pervert!

[birdy]

I dont think anyone could expect a magni, or any 2seater to do wot the ferel, or most sigles can do, i never did.
Im compareing the magni to me wasa, and after flyn one, and see'n a few vids of um flyn, theres no way a magni would blow wind up me wasa.
Theoreticaly, the magni should blow the fat pig wasa outa the air, but we know that alota theory seems to miss a few critical facts wen the calcs are done.
As i said, double the cyclic leaverage and you could actualy sink the boot in, but im not sure if theres enuf room ina magni tub to have any more leaverage. :(

[Heron]

Birdy, does that have anything to do with mast size? (more or less crankable)
Add items and we get the math: disc size, mast size, weight, power ratio, and linkage = kind of animal . . .
thanks
Heron

[bpearson]

I'm still searching for me video Bird !

[troed@aon.at]

Hi Folks !

After a little break I´m back in active flying. (too much work in my profession;) )

At our homebase in Fertöszentmiklos LHFM/Hungary at the boarder to Austria Andreas Siebenhofer built up a European "Gyro-Empire" thus enabling gyro-pilots to fly and test all major European gyros: Magni, XENON, ELA 07S, MT03, Sportcopter Lightning (!!), and in close future: DF02, Clouddancer (both German single-seaters) and the new ArrowCopter.

So I had the chance last weekend to fly first an MT03, then the Magni and last but not least my first type-rating lesson on the new XENON.

Concerning possible flight envelopes Andreas is my reference: there is no LSA-flying vehicle he can not fly and he has developed to be THE reference-testpilot for new gyros in Europe.

I was copiloting him in MT03, Magni and XENON and he can do every single maneuvre with all three types of gyros as if they were the same :D

Why: he is one of the best gyro-pilots I know and he tests gyros to their boarders but still in the safe flight envelope of their making.

One thing mus be clear: all three types are in the same average weight class and flying at the European weight limit 450kg MTOW means: from rotor-dimensions to motor (all Rotax 912/914) to prop to cabin they are all comparable.

The differences start with the frontal shape of the gyros and their total airflow-resistance and the layout of the stick: 1. ) if You have an open gyro you have a lot of dragging turbulances, if it is closed (like the XENON) the bigger frontal face to the wind is partly compensated by the better aerodynamic airflow around the cabin, 2.) if You have a very short stick You will need higher steering forces with a steeper increase (like Magni) instead with the long stick of the MT03 You have very low steering forces.

So it´s all simple physics.

The XENON is right in the middle of both of them in it´s ergonomy. I personally prefer higher forces on the stick since it prevents overreaction of the gyro by an overreacting pilot (more PIO-safe). This is why I always preferred the Magni to the MT03.

As a typical recreational pilot I want to have fun in flying and have some safety back-up from the gyro in case a situation occurs that I did not train too many times (e.g. heavy side-gusts at landing).

When testing the first maneuvres with the XENON he responded precise and quick to the steering input and beside there is no feedback from the flowing air around my nose and the steering forces are higher than in the MT03 and lower in the Magni the XENON did exactly what the MT03 does: agile flying.

Thus for me the XENON at this time is the best combination of show-flight-gyro and long-range X-country machine. I will proceed with my type-rating with lots of fun.

The only bad thing with the XENON: the price .........

Angelo

[troed@aon.at]

by the way:

here some videos (with german headlines)

http://www.gyro.at/videogalerie.html

Angelo

[RotorTom]

FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE ... Scott (Tinnesand) can make the Xenon waltz, tap, cha-cha, gitter-bug, tango, break-dance, fox-trot and ballet. He "wears" the Xenon like a pair of pants. It goes where he puts it -- all with flowing accuracy.

Hope to achieve that ability someday.

But I agree that Xenon's primary market is the FW pilot who wants something light and fun. So the initial demos seem to be shallow climbs and descents, mild turns and otherwise "normal" stuff.

As for the price -- it is definitely not cheap -- when compared to gyros. But most people in the market for the Xenon are comparing it to other light-sport aircraft or fixed wings. And compared to them it is a bargain.

[Timchick]

by the way:

here some videos (with german headlines)

http://www.gyro.at/videogalerie.html

Angelo

The MT03 Jumpstart and M16 hovering are great. Thanks for sharing.

[troed@aon.at]

Hi XenonTom !

For the price-comparison You´re right. If the US $ would go up again it would be even better for US-gyrists :) and also for me: my stocks-shares would rise and I could buy one :lol: ................

All in all: the XENON is a fantastic machine, tomorrow I proceed with my type rating

Angelo