Fly with doors on

[Whirlydog]

I have read numerous times of people with enclosed machines such as the RAF and UFO ect. that can't or won't fly with thier doors on.  I thought that was the whole idea of an enclosed cabin is so that you can fly inside out of the wheather and in comfort.  What is the big difference with flying with and without them? What do you think cuases this problem? what design changes are need to correct this problem?  When I start building my own gyro I want an enclosed cabin and I want it to be as just as stable with the doors on as without.

[Udi]

WhirlyDog,<br><br>It would be nice if you signed your real name at the bottom of the post or at least in your profile.<br><br>The machines that you are talking about have too much side surface in front of the aircraft CG and not enough vertical stabilizer to compensate for that. &nbsp;Their yaw stability with the doors on is very poor. &nbsp;A simple way to fix the problem is to size the vertical stabilizer properly, as is the case with the SparrowHawk, which flies stable with the doors on.<br><br>Udi-<br>

[Whirlydog]

Udi, thanks for the reply. *I quess that answers my question.<br><br> My real name is Shawn Rowland. * In the profile section it doesnt give you the option of both handle and real name. *I can sign all my post with no problem. *It is also there in my signature line. :)<br><br>Shawn

[Whirlydog]

Next question. &nbsp;Is there formula or something that can help in determaining the size and placement for the vertical tail. &nbsp;ie. a smaller tail set further back having the same effect as a larger on up close? &nbsp;I am thinking of how a lever works. &nbsp;I hope I am on the right track.<br><br>Shawn

[Aussie_Paul]

Shawn, when we put the gearbox instead of a crankshaft breaking belt drive on Hybrid, the prop went the other way, so we had to make a new tail with opposite offset.<br><br>As the Raf was a &quot;foot full&quot; with the doors on we made the tail for Hybrid 30% larger and Hybrid will fly feet free with the doors on during gusty crosswind touring.<br><br>Aussie Paul.

[John_wilkinson]

8)can verify that,bean in it and don that.

[StanFoster]

Shawn: I seemed to have missed this thread as I know I would have read it closely. I bought my RAF with the full intent of flying with the doors on after I flew it this year accumulating experience. I have the Parham stab with the winglets.

I was told by several pilots that I would not have much trouble with the doors on with that stab. I talked to Ron Menzie over the phone and he told me the same. He trains students with the doors on and no problems.

So...I have from day one flew with the doors on and feel very comfortable with it ..even flying perpendicular to the wind on fairly windy days. I am as yet only taking off and landing with moderate sidewinds while I am getting accustomed to my RAF's limits. But...so far I am very pleased with it.

[Aussie_Paul]

Guys, and MJ, the stab that were are developing for the UK market, but have put on hold untill Firebird is up and running, had the fins on the ends of the stabs to inprove the efficiency of the stab and help the poms fly comfortably with the doors on in their colder climate.

I understand what you are saying Stan.

Aussie Paul.

[mceagle]

Stan,

&quot;I have from day one flew with the doors on and feel very comfortable with it ..even flying perpendicular to the wind on fairly windy days.&quot;

You may be &quot;tracking&quot; perpendicular to the wind but the Gyro should always be flying directly or straight into the wind. It should be no different to flying in zero wind. The drift string should always point straight back.

[Aussie_Paul]

Tim, I think this is maybe what Stan was getting at.

Flying with a gusty cross wind in a stock Raf with the doors on the gust moves the cabin because the tail is too small, so you are dancing on the pedals at times to keep the string in the center.

With the doors off most of the gust goes through the cabin, and life is easier.

With my Hybrid, which has a 30% larger tail than the stock Raf, it does not matter.

On a stock Raf the extra vertical area, as with my pictured stab and other stabs like the Parham etc, greatly helps the problem.

Aussie Paul.

[StanFoster]

Tim: What I meant to say is what Paul said better. I am talking about gusty days,,,and flying perpendicular to those gusts. I can recall my Air Command with its pod yawing a little...but not too bad,.

My RAF doesnt even concern me so far. I was flying today in some pretty stiff variable winds and no problems.

Paul: That looks like a nice stab you have. Obviously, the more vertical tail area you have,,,and the farther back...the more stable it will be.

[ventana7]

A week ago I was flying the Sparrowhawk in some fairly gusty winds with the doors off. With its large tail there is a noticable yaw effect when the gust hits the tail but basically goes thru the open cabin. It did not require any particular rudder pedal work but each gust brought with it a momentary yaw which straightened itself out as soon as the gust passed.

Rob

[Aussie_Paul]

Rob, everything seems to be a compromise. With the larger fin and rudder on Hybrid we get more yawing with the doors off than we did with the doors ON a Raf!!!

There is a balance, fin and rudder area, at which are aiming for, that gives the best of both worlds.

Aussie Paul.

[mceagle]

You must also remember that when you increase the fin area with the addition of winglets then you must increase the rudder area proportionly to have the same rudder response. If you get too much fin area you can get to the stage where you have not got enough rudder to land in a crosswind.

[Aussie_Paul]

Correct Tim, I should have mentioned that.

Aussie Paul.

[StanFoster]

Tim: That is a good point about the rudder being less effective in cross winds. As I am training myself in my RAF...I am sneaking up on the cross wind experience. I am making sure I still have rudder effect.

I just figure I may have to land a tad faster if I have a good crosswind...of course one can point it right into the wind too.. ;D

[Larry Boyer]

Last week I finished my new stabs from Larry Martin and installed them. They look nice! It was windy/gusty with a dead cross wind. It was a beautiful day and I did want to fly the new Ultimate stab in the wind. I rolled out the Raf that was dormant since the end of December and fired her up. It purred like a kitten and I thought what the heck, this is supposed to be a superior stab to anything else out there, so lets do it. I taxied down the runway and turned around and started my prerotation. When I got 150rpm, I applied power. At 45, it wanted to fly so I left it. I had the rotors trimed for the old Larry Martin stab. I had to hold hard forward stick to let it climb at 60. It was really gusty, yet I felt no pitching at all, and I believe I would have with the old stab. I trimed it out to 65 and I got hit with gusts that actually turned me almost 180. Yet it corrected itself faster than I thought to with rudder. The large vertical parts of the stab really work well. I turned into the wind and it was very smooth. I felt the gusts, but it did not pitch up or want to pitch down.
Now I am going to peeve some of you. You can say that I am only feeling the stability, well I was in conditions that I normally would have hesitated to fly in because I would have had my hands full. The RAF flew stable with no adverse tendencies what so ever. I have always held the contention that the RAF is not for the new guy. Well whith this stab, I think the PPO issue will be greatly deminished on a RAF and other HTL machines. When Larry Martin first announced this stab and it's tests by Ron Menzie, a couple people said Larry had exagerated his claims. Ron had used Gremminigers outline for stability to determine the effectiveness and said he liked it very much to the point Ron M was training students in windy conditions with success., and yet the RAF haters said it couldn't be so. I think Larry M has a winner here. If Raf owners are on the fence concerning the AAI change, or are flying without a stab, or have a old style stab, then call Larry Martin and get yourself this finely designed stab.I think you will love!( maybe this is one of two fixes for the RAF high thrust line!)

[StanFoster]

Larry: Good post. I have talked to several that have told me that the stab you have and my Parham stab are really nice handling.

I was up flying yesterday and the winds were 25- 35 and gusty. I flew for an hour and was very relaxed. Right on take off my stupid yaw string desides to get tangled up...so I thought this would be interesting. I soon discovered that it flew better with me just letting the rudders go by themselves. I am like you and feel very confident in my RAF. It felt so good from day one that as long as I was very comfortable...I would continue with my self training. I have 25 hours in it now....and am ecstatic about the way it flies. There has been way too much anti RAF hype....in my opinion.

[Harry_S.]

Stan and Larry;

You're both right. People who bad-mouth the RAF do not fly the RAF, 1 or 2 do but most don't. With an effective stab, it is a most enjoyable machine to fly. An inexperienced pilot should not attempt to even taxi it without an instructor sitting along side. It is a big heavy machine.

I flew mine for 90 hrs. before I installed a Ken J. stab. Without a stab there's quite a workload to fly in windy and gusty conditions, I must say, but with a stab it can handle anything. I am not foolhardy and will not attempt to fly in say 50 mph winds, altho, I do fly when most of the FW's stay on the ground at my airport.

I'm pushing 400 hrs. on the Hobbs and looking for another 400, here in central Florida.

[Harry_S.]

Addendum to the above post:

I never installed doors on my machine so I have no yaw problems. Don't need doors in this area.

[gyroman]

If Ken J. were here he would probably disagree with you and he flys a modified RAF. As you stated &quot;With an effective stab, it is a most enjoyable machine to fly.&quot; The main gripe people have with the RAF is the company tactics, and their inability to recognize the need for an effective stab to counter the high thrustline. Several innocent people have died because of this flaw and the company seems to take no responsibility nor any action to correct the design.

[StanFoster]

Harry: It was guys just like you...in fact you were one of them..that gave me the confidence that I would be satisfied with flying my RAF.

Thanks for the e-mail you sent me last winter. I really put a lot of weight on those with lots of experience.

[Hognose]

the stab that were are developing for the UK market


Paul,

I'd swear I saw that stab on a gyro at Mentone. It was green and had a graphic of an elegant frog on it (my notes are not on this machine). The machine was named &quot;Peasant Frogg&quot; -- but the builder/owner's name escapes me now. Ron Menzie was looking at the same machine at the same time, and was impressed with some of the detail work. For example, the windscreen was bonded flush, not riveted, and he'd done some ingenious stuff with the Soob, which had a lot of polishing, etc.

I recall both the turned-up lip and the elliptical verticals that reminded me of a Lancaster.

cheers

-=K=-

[StanFoster]

Hognose: Here is that green RAF. I was there last summer taking pictures of all the RAF's . Your recall was right on ;)

[Larry Boyer]

Hey Stan the Man!!! You are catching up to me in hours behind the stick. I have 50 + logged and I just love my RAF. I really like the new stab. I flew it Friday afternoon in a 15 gusting to 20 crosswind again.( the winds in Pa are peaving me!). I complained about what I called the dipsy doodles with the old stab. In windy, gusty conditions, my gyro would osilate in pitch. To correct I would just hold a little back pressure and it would go away. The last 2 flights have been in windy /gusty conditions and I am getting a little bored. It just flies through that stuff other than I need the rudder occasionally. I believe I love my RAF even more. I am building a new one with some fram mods. I just finished painting the pod tonight. After I go to church, I am ready to mount it on my finished airframe tomorrow. I ordered a EJ-22 from Colorado Rebuild. Should have it soon. It will be fuel injected with the cams reworked for some more HP. I am very interested to see how it flies with the lower thrust line and the stab in the prop wash. Hope it's a sled! But after fling the new stab, I can't imagine it being much better.?By the way, did I mention you did a nice job on your RAF! Has anyone come up with an easy way to change oil? I can't get a funnel in there to catch the oil. Looks like I would have to drop the exhaust.

[mceagle]

Larry,
To solve the oil change problem, most of the blokes around here have fitted remote drains. The sump plug is tapped to take the largest brass elbow that you can fit in. Hudraulic return hose is run down one of the stays to the keel where a quarter turn ballcock is securely mounted. The ballcock handle is drilled for a safety clip (or wire) to secure it in the off position. Some of the boys have made a habit of using the safety clip to hold their ignition key when the tap is in the open or drain position.
These, along with remote oil filters, have become a necessity in full enclosed machines.

[StanFoster]

Larry: I know what you are saying about loving the way the RAF flies.
If I had known what I know now...I would have gotten one a long time ago. One just has to check out things for himself. My reluctance to buy one was based on what I kept reading...but my decision to buy one was because of several high time RAF pilots that took the time to e-mail me in private. You guys know who you are...and I thank everyone of you.

When I first changed the oil....I made a funnel out of some posterboard. I still had to clean up a little. That external drain idea sounds good.

[Harry_S.]

Larry and Stan;

What I did to make oil changes a breeze was to take a new drain plug and a pipe thread pet-cock to a machinist friend. He bored and threaded a hole in the drain plug and installed the pet-cock. I drilled a 1/16&quot; hole in each *arm* of the p/c and use one hole to safety wire the p/c. Get a piece of 3/8&quot; clear vinyl tubing 2-3 ft. long to go from the pet-cock to the catch pan.

You will need a thin flat lid from a cookie tin or something similar to place on top of the muffler to catch the residual oil when you remove the drain plug. (About half a cup.)

Safety wire the p/c, install the drain plug and your done, except for the messy job of changing the oil filter. I've often thought about putting in a remote oil filter, but ---------------.

[Harry_S.]

What do you RAF owner/drivers think about starting a thread for passing on experiences, problems, solutions tips and/or suggestions peculiar to us?

[quadrirotor]

You can have this one:

http://home.att.net/~raf2000owners/home.htm

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

RAF is still standing by their claim that their machine is stable.

Yet I see a large group of people that are spending thousands of dollars to install stabalizing devices on their RAF's.

Do RAF give you a discount for their design flaws?

Chuck E.

[Harry_S.]

Andre';

I'm speaking of a thread, not a website. I'm in Gary's register. Gary would have to update his website constantly?

I'm talking of a thread here on Todd's forum where we could communicate 25/8.

And I think Todd should remove your animation, as it's not needed and it's flawed.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Andre;

Please leave your animation there in memory of the 15 to 20 souls who spent their last seconds on this earth going thorugh that manuver in their RAF 2000's.

The splitting of seconds really has no meaning once their RAF's started the tumble.

Chuck E.

[StanFoster]

Harry: Good idea on the oil drain plug.

I think your idea of a thread for RAF experiences..problems..fixes..is another good idea.

[Hognose]

Here is that green RAF. I was there last summer taking pictures of all the RAF's .

Stan, and all

The builder and owner of that green GTX SE is Tom Monard. A really nice guy, and his machine is full of inventive/good workmanship. He had a large enclosed trailer, like a race car trailer, that was outfitted as a veritable Garage Mahal.

Tom was very close to completion but had not yet flown. He told me who he was going to take instruction from but I have forgotten. It is in my notes somewhere. he has a fixed wing rating.

Among the other RAFs there, of course, along with the AAI stabilization-kit/Sparrowhawk prototypes, I thought the yellow RAF 1000 was most interesting. Pretty rare machines, now, but you see in it, just how much of Igor Bensen's DNA is in the RAF gyroplanes.

cheers

-=K=-

[Larry Boyer]

Hey Chuck. You can bash RAF all you want and I see most are ignoring your negative comments. I see a positive in what you say. I hope the owners and future buyers of RAF machines do take the sport of gyro flying seriously enough to get the best advise , training, and upgrades to the equipment their money can buy. I hope like Stan, that they don't listen to just one opinion.(like yours)He would have missed out on the fun he is having in a well built machine that is very capable. Stan has completed his RAF and like me, love the machine and how it handles the elements. I am not convinced that I need a stab to succeed at flying a RAF. I flew one without and it was in very windy conditions. It flew fine!I do feel better knowing that I have a stab back there.(thanks to people like you that think all stabless RAF's kill) So if a RAF owner wants to upgrade to a Parham or larry Martin stab,RAF stabalator, AAI frame change,Paul Bruty Hybred, whatever, They should do it because it may just help the flying characteristics and stability. They should make their decisions after they have talked to people that have made the changes.One consideration should not be that RAF won't compensate me for these changes, so therefoe I won't buy a mod.Or, I like the RAF but I won't buy one because they don't endorse a stab. I am building my second RAF. I have made some frame modifications to give it more stability. I am not sure how much more stable it can get. I just like to experiment.
RAF makes a nice kit. I like how all the parts fit. I like the quality of the parts.I have been buiding aircraft since 1978. From a Zenair 200 from plans to a Phantom ultralight. Air Command to a Pterdactayl. 8 aircraft. Start to finish.7 of 8 were kits. RAF has the best looking parts in the kit built business that I have witnessed. Chuck, I have received many E-mails from RAF owners. Many don't post because they don't want to get lambasted by bashers. All say they love their RAF.All have had concerns about the machine. Most of those concerns have never been realized. Most would buy again. I know I would. (and then make changes I feel necessary)

[quadrirotor]

I think so too!. The RAF is actually very good for the money you pay; as she is in the homebuilt domain, YOU must do the modifications YOU think necessary to fly safely... If you don't know what YOU are doing: fly a Cessna!...

You have a RAF2000 for the price of two blades of a R22!

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

The reason I will continue to point out facts about RAF is quite simple.

Between 15 and 20 people have died in their machine, some of which were bunts and possibly most were bunts.

So after fourteen years of making the same machine they have figured out the knack of making all the parts fit..Big deal.

Maybe you could enlighten me about why they continue to make a machine that is prone to foward tumbles and will not change their design??

And to the best of my knowledge they are the only kit manufacturer who will not change the design once people start getting killed flying their product. Maybe you know of others?

Yeh, I hold them in utter contempt.

You are free to your opinion, if you don't like mine so be it.

Remember I worked with them for a short period of time at their factory finishing building my kit.......I found them to be unprincipaled and dishonest.

Why don't you get all the RAF supporters together and have me banned from this site. That will solve your problem with me.

Chuck E.

[Aussie_Paul]

Well said Larry, I am not a Raf company supporter al all. I have been lied to and cheated, but because of their badly designed gyro, and their lying to me etc, I have learn't one hellova lot.

Now the other side, the mechanicals.

I found that the machining, the anodizing and the general look and fit of the airframe bits to be excellent.

BUT.

I have had mufflers crack and let exhaust gases into the intake.

I have had a nose wheel steering axle break because they drilled to put a roll pin exactly where the thread and shank met. The highest stress area.

I had two of their new beaut ignition systems fail. That is why we went to our own system.

My Raf customers and I have had numerous rotor blades cracks. My first set were exchanged but for the rest we were given a cosmetic fix, as that is all that is required.

I had a radiator develop a leak because the lower outlet copper pipe is too long, and vibration causes the solder to crack. Fixed by shortening the copper and using a longer hose.

I have always loved a lot of the Raf ideas, But when you have a problem it is always my fault. They, Raf, connot be told!!!

I look at it this way. Raf had the &quot;sizzle&quot; ie. fully enclosed side by side seating, four stroke powerd cross country gyroplane with removable doors for warmer weather flying. The trouble was you got salmonela poisoned cheap sausages, no stab HTL.

People like AAI and myself are giving the &quot;sizzle&quot; as well as a lovely piece of steak!!!!

Oops have to go to an appointment.

Cheers, Aussie Paul.

[birdy]

Just lurki'n. ;D

[Harry_S.]

I thoroughly enjoy my RAF and I don't care what any non-believers say.

I read and evaluate what all &quot;knowlegable* RAF owners post, eg., rod end bearings (I replaced mine), drive bearings (I replaced mine), electronic ignition ( I still use the carburetor), bad tires (I've had no problem), alternator (I've had no problem). I'm fortunate I know, but I also know that I could have these problems in the future.

A good pre-flight insp., a good in-flight evaluation and a good post-flight insp. makes all the difference in the world.

Enough for this post.

[Aussie_Paul]

You enjoy your Raf Harry, as Stan is, and as I did with our stab, and still would be if I had not had to develop my own product.

They, Raf, have been the only gyro on the market for many years with the &quot;sizzle&quot;. The number of kits sold proves that they had the &quot;sizzle&quot;.

AAI is now up and running. Probably not quite as much &quot;sizzle&quot; but a very safe gyroplane.

I am doing my damnest to be not to far away with the &quot;sizzle&quot; of the Raf and the safety of the AAI product.

Aussie Paul.

[StanFoster]

As many that read my posts know...I am extremely satisfied with my RAF..and not just because its mine. That dang thing was the easiest thing to transition to.

All one has to do is read all my posts from the beginning. I kept saying I was getting training. But after I went out and taxied....this over several sessions...I just kept going to the next step. It handled great and with no surprises. Next thing I know I have my airworthiness certficate and I was airborne the next day and have been most of the days since. I had to eat crow explaining why I never got training like I said I definately was. It flies beautifully.

Another meal of crow I had to eat was I said I was not going to fly with the doors on until after I had flown all this year and it got cold in the fall. My back channel research steered my correctly. I contacted several high time RAF pilots seeking their advice and experience because I sure as heckl didnt have any with a RAF. I came to the conclusion that I had to have a stab...and since I bought this RAF to fly year round in...I definately wanted to fly with the doors on. This stab I felt should have winglets on it to help stabilize the effects of the doors on. My Parham stab handles it fine. I still am scratching my head how this average pilot isnt noticing these problems that I kept reading about. I almost considered jsut keeping the doors haning on the hanger wall. Ron Menzie gave me the confidence to fly with them on...just by a phone call. I hold his flying experience up with anyones.

My biggest surprise is that there was absolutely no surprises at all.

I have ALWAYS said CLT is the best setup...but I cant keep quiet on how satisfied I am with my RAF.

The hardest thing about my whole learning curve was to get over what I kept reading...and listen to the ones that have lots of experience in the RAF. I have thanked you guys here in this forum that have given me back door advice by e-mail and phone calls. Most do not post here in this forum ...but you know who you are.

I still feel that the biggest stability asset is to fly relaxed.

Birdy I would bet is the most relaxed pilot amongst us. He uses his machine for his work...and he probably does more stuff with a stabless gyro because he is relaxed.

Let me end this by saying even though I fly HTL...I think CLT is very important to learn in...mainly because many new pilots are tense as heck. I have no doubt that being tense...and flying HTL is not a good match.

So machines like the SparrowHawk...which I think is one awesome setup...and the Dominator....and the Hybrid that Paul is developing are on the cutting edge of saving lives while learning to fly these machines. And I have no doubt that they are even better handling.....though I cant say from experience.

I just dont want to be mistaken for promoting HTL...just because I have had no problem learning to fly first a Bensen..then an Air Command ..and now my RAF.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

So can anyone explain to me why several high time pilots died in RAF's by losing control?

The high time helicopter pilot from I believe Colorado several years ago bunted after take off, and he had been trained by an RAF instructor.

Anyone have any explination for these losses?

Maybe being a hight time pilot is determintal to staying alive in one of RAF's machines?

Remember we are talking about real people here who died needlessly in a sport aircraft.

Chuck E.

[StanFoster]

Paul: I am very interested in following all your posts....its also interesting how methodical your approach to developing the Hybrid. I have no doubt it will be one heck of a machine. Keep up the good work. Stan

[Harry_S.]

Great post Stan.

You're living proof that an *experienced* gyro pilot can safely transition to the RAF, and love it.

Good show.

[Aussie_Paul]

Harry and Stan, you have to clarify that you do not have stock Rafs when you say your Rafs are fine. Just make sure that people know that you have stabs.

I cannot see a problem with loving your Rafs and being comfortable and happy with them.

Aussie Paul.

[StanFoster]

Paul: Since I read your last post...I decided to post a picture of my RAF to come up on the left side of my posts. I am too ignorant to know how to get the picture posted. I went into my profile section ok...but it asked for my address to my pictures..and I did not know what to type in. So I copied their example...and ended up with that blank box with a red x in it now. :( Any suggestions?

[Aussie_Paul]

Great idea Stan. No good asking me for advice unless it is gyro stability orientated!!!! LOL.

I am sure someone will help you out.

Aussie Paul.

[Harry_S.]

Stan;

Send it to Todd by e-mail and he will put it in for you.

I ASKED HIM TO DO MINE. HE SAID NO PROBLEM. NOW I CAN'T FIND MY PICTURE.

[StanFoster]

Harry: Thanks ,,,,Todd posted my picture on right away.:)

[rtfm]

Hi guys,
As you can see, I'm new to this discussion. In fact, I'm new to flying in general, and to gyros in particular. I enjoy reading your posts. Thanks for all the input.

As far as the original question of this thread is concerned, (unstable aircraft when doors are on) I have some comments:

Udi mentioned "too much side surface in front of the aircraft CG and not enough vertical stabilizer to compensate for that", which is of course perfectly correct - but there is an extremely simple way to determine if your (or any) gyro is stable (I got this from Jeff Price at the UFO Helithruster factory which I visited last Saturday).

What you do is:
(1) take a photo of your gyro from the side
(2) Using a sharp blade, cut out the gyro from the background. The idea is to 'extract' only the gyro. You will need to cut along each strut, each protrusion. You need to be accurate in this, but it is not difficult to do.
(3) What you now have is a perfect, miniature gyro exactly as the side-on wind would see it. All that remains is for you to draw a line vertically down the CoG. Then balance the photo on a sharp edge, and watch which way it falls. If it falls towards the front of the plane, the craft is unstable. There is too much windage in front of the CoG. If it falls on the tail side, it is stable.

QED :)

Using this method, there is no need for hunches, guestimates and other trial-and-error methods. Apparently Mac used this method as a starting point in designing the UFO, which is perfectly stable in crosswinds with the doors on.

Duncan

[davreich]

Hi,
Next everyone try that with a picture of a big bumble bee. :D

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[birdy]

Has anyone flowen a RAf with only one door on???

All the heliemuster pilots here ferry between jobs with only one door on bell 47s and R22s,it's cooler in summer and is easer to carry their gear on the passenger seat with the door on.Been going to try it meself in the RAF,but if someone here has already done it,it'll save me being the guineypig .[me "strip" is only a narrow road,200m,no room for error if the yaw gets out of hand.]

[Aussie_Paul]

Birdy, I have flown a stock Raf with a passenger taking pics, his door was off. Did not notice any real difference. Nothing to suspect the a door was off.

Aussie Paul.

[PW_Plack]

Duncan,

The paper cutout method doesn't give the complete answer. If you have a cabin shaped like a sphere, and a tail which appears as a flat plate from the side, they could have exactly the same shape and surface area when viewed two-dimensionally from the side, but the tail would have much more drag.

A good starting point, though!

[birdy]

Thanx Paul and Duncan, :)
Only thought it may have made a difference seeing as it makes a difference to yaw stability with and without doors.
I'll try it one day when it cools down ere a bit.

[Aussie_Paul]

Birdy, with both doors off the wind can balance through the cabin, so 1 door will stop the balancing the same as 2 doors.

One of my student now gyroplane pilot had a small pod added to his 618 powered machine and brought it to me for checking and testing last Tuesday. It wanted to swap ends a little and I don't like that. Flying with a gusting cross wind the gusts would push the pod and a yaw would result. I was only game to allow it to go a certain way as it felt it could take over!!!!!

We put a big and ugly fin and rudder on and it was great but required a trim tab, and the gusts would push the tail and a small yaw would result. We were able to reduce the rudder size to something more aesthetic and still did the job.
Now flying with a 25 kt gusty cross wind the whole machine would move a little side ways with a gust. Flys feet off lovely.

Aussie Paul.

[Hognose]

Birdy asked,

"Has anyone flowen a RAf with only one door on?"

Chuck Feil told me he usually flew his RAF (which he uses for low-level aerial photography, and loves) with the left door off, and the right door on. He keeps all his x-pensive cameras and whatnot on the pax seat.

See him doing it, here:

http://www.viewsfromabove.com/vfaPublishing/authors.html

cheers

-=K=-