Newby with LOTS of ???????'s

[Nuff_Sed]

Hi All

Another Newby here from South Africa..

I've been toying with the idea of getting into either Gyro or ultralight flying for around 3 years now. I've finally made up my mind. A GYRO IT WILL BE! No question.

Reason why I'm posting here is that I've been leaning towards a Butterfly due to it's (at least as is evident from Youtube and the Butterfly site) stability and short landing/takeoff capabilities. After going through Dominator specs and vids, however, it seems as if they're (Dominator and Butterfly) much of a muchness except in the price category.

Now, what I'm looking for is feedback from Dominator owners/builders/flyers on anything and everything that will help me make my mind up. I know price shouldn't be a factor when one considers safety and reliability, BUT, in this case, if the performance, reliability and handling is close enough - Why not?

I know that for the experienced and long-standing members this might be a chore often repeated, but please guys I would appreciate honest feedback.

Thanks

Nuff_Sed

[Ron E]

The Dominator has a tall tail which cancels out the effects of engine torque since the rudder and horizontal stabilizer is fully immersed in the prop wash. The Butterfly has only a half-ass tail. So, you have to deal with the torque when you add throttle and on takeoff.

When your engine stops, the tall tail gives you better directional control because the rudder is in the free air steam above and below the gyro structure. The Butterfly has only a half-ass tail, which is mostly in the shadow of the engine and pilot in front of it.

The Dominator comes fully assembled and test-flown but still costs less than the comparable Butterfly design, sold as a 51% kit you build and then debug yourself.

Both machines have CLT or NCLT with a substantial horizontal stabilizer in the propwash which are life-preserving features for a gyroplane.

The Butterfly's "stop and fall" landing gear seems helpful in making steep landing approaches at low speed and saving a screwed-up landing , but it hangs down so low in flight that I would be concerned about "drag-over" when at a high cruise speed and then hit by a strong head-on gust. Visually, there seems to be too much drag way down low for my comfort.

That is just my take on it, and I am not a gyro designer or an expert on this subject. I own and fly a Dominator Ultrawhite with a 503 Rotax engine.

See some videos of Dominators being flown on my website:

www.hoverhawk.com

Thanks,
Ron

[Timchick]

Hey Ron, The video link you say is a Dominator Copy flown in Texas is an Air Command.

[Nuff_Sed]

Hey Ron

Thanks for the info. Your comments are well noted, and also, they correspond with what some guys locally said about the Butterfly, confirming however that they too, only saw the vids (butterfly), on youtube and could not tell for sure.

Great Vids on your site, man. I watch them over and over... The yellow one has a really interesting pre-rotator set up. I'd like to learn more about it. Is it true that the pilot is a bit "bogged down" at present, so to say???

Cheers, and thanks again...

[Ron E]

Hey Ron, The video link you say is a Dominator Copy flown in Texas is an Air Command.

Thanks Tim,

I wasn't sure what it was, but it looked alot like a Dominator but still different too.

Matt sure flew it "aggressively". I heard he was rebuilding it after his mishap with the mud.

[Timchick]

Ron,
Are you a dealer for Ernie?

[BUD ONEAL]

James,
Having been flying gyros for the last twenty five years or so and having flown most designs,not the butterfly though,I can say that the dominator is the best design that I have flown,forgiving and very docile.Easy to land and just a all around great machine. Bud

P.S not a dealer for Ernie.

[Nuff_Sed]

Thanks Bud. From what I've seen, and heard, your comments just put my mind at ease even more. I think that for me, right now, the Dominator is the one. I'll be hard pressed to change my mind.

Such a shame that the yellow Air Command was destroyed. Glad the pilot's ok. I really enjoy watching his movies. I've downloaded just about every movie on Gyro's from Youtube. Keeps me motivated...

Thanks again

Cheers All

[Niles]

BTW, I dated a girl from South Africa, so let me translate "much of a muchness"...it means the two things in question are about the same. Other strange South African expressions I had to understand include calling traffic lights "robots" and the expression "just now", meaning "in a little while" which seemed exactly backwards to my American mind. Example: "Just now you'll come to a robot", which translates to: "In a ways down the road you'll come to a traffic light".

[Nuff_Sed]

Good memory Niles

Yeah - we do have a strange way of expressing ourselves sometimes. Makes us unique. I think what adds to the mix is that we have 11 official languages in South Africa (and some of them are much of a muchness) and there is a lobby group that is pressing to make sign language (the one deaf people use, and not the one most commonly seen on the highways and robots) the 12th. That's going to be fun! Then watch us communicate!!!! :blabla:

[Resasi]

Just saw the vid of the agressive flying on the Air Comand, that was awesome. The pilot is obviously completely at one with his machine and he gave a very impressive display of what is possible. Sad to see what a soft surface landing will do and glad to hear that he escaped with only a sore shoulder.
Would I be correct in assuming that the small pre-rotator ' aux' engine (if I understood the set-up correctly) plays a big part played a part in the versatility of the machine or is it completely conventional simply taking pre-rotation from the main engine.

[Paul_in_Ohio]

...sign language


Then watch us communicate!!!!


Don't know if you intended that, but I found it funny!:D

[Nuff_Sed]

Only realized it when you brought it to my attention.. lol . good observation

[Doug Riley]

I flew a new 503 DC Butterfly belonging to student of mine a week ago. I put a little review under the "single place gyros" heading.

[Nuff_Sed]

Saw the review. Thanks. I've been getting so many suggestions and PM's and all have their own views and merits. Armed with all of that info, I know that come decision time, it'll be right...

Ciao

[GyroDoug]

Jacques,

I don't believe you could go wrong with either a Dominator or a Butterfly. They are both modern designs with many similar features. If you are trying to be talked out of a Butterfly and into a Dominator then asking a bunch of Dominator guys what they think is a great way to do it. Most Gyro Pilots seem to be fiercely loyal to what ever model they fly (I'm no exception) And there are lots of loyal Dominator guys so that says a lot about the Dominator.

The Butterfly is a relatively new machine with a much smaller following so far, so you won't get inundated with messages from Butterfly guys trying to help you see that their machine is the greatest in the world. However, there are some advantages that I feel the Butterfly can offer and you should look carefully at both machines. While it is true that the G-Force Landing Gear (with it's long travel, in order to absorb incredible loads) does hang down lower than the Dominator's landing gear. And without any further consideration, that could be a negative, but Larry has developed fairings for the wheels and the landing gear legs that drastically reduce the drag that this incredible landing gear system would otherwise have to deal with. He has also developed a system that holds the gear up (in the same position it is in at takeoff) and allows you to drop the gear when you get ready to land. This latest version of the G-Force Landing gear also gives the Butterfly suspension to absorb bumps on the ground, which it didn't have before.

So when you know all the facts you may come to different conclusions. I am not trying to talk you into getting a Butterfly rather than a Dominator. But I do suggest you study both very thoroughly and understand what you are looking for and then pick the machine that best meets your needs. I came very near to start building a Dominator and I still think very highly of Ernie and what he has developed. However the more I learned about the Butterfly and all the innovative things Larry is doing, I decided the best machine to fit my goals was the Butterfly Super Sky Cycle.

I wish you the best in whichever way you decide to go. Keep us all informed of what you decide and how it goes for you. There are many other new people out there that can benefit from hearing what you go through on your path to becoming a Gyro Owner & Pilot.

Gyro Doug

[Ron E]

Ciao,

I learned today that the Butterfly G-Force Landing Gear (GFLG) can be locked in the UP position in flight if you opt for the "GFLG Selector" for $195 more. Then you lower the gear before landing (if you don't forget). You lock the gear in the UP position before takeoff.

So the "drag-over" potential I raised (whether real or imaginary on my part)would be mitigated. Raised landing gear would give me some in-flight comfort, as long as I could remember to lower the gear each time before landing.

I would require a post-it note on my instrument pod.

I must say that I really like the concept of that landing gear and how it allows the pilot to make such steep, low-speed approaches to landings without bending or breaking expensive aircraft parts.

[Rotornut]

Butterfly is a Nice Machine. MJ :)
Larry is a Good Person and when you get face to face he loves to share his knowledge and Idea's with all. We Meet Larry in 1998 and attend lots of Fly-Ins that he also attended.
Never had any doubt that he would follow thru with his dream's, idea's, and drive.
Larry is a Good Light on All of Us in the Gyro World.

Some may not like other's but we need to all play together in the sand box.

Every Machine has it's own unique thing about it.
Dominator's land almost anywhere and are safe as long as the Pilot is in command.
That is why I want Richard to have one Safety is Ernie's train of thought when he builds.
Also Chuck B is a Blessing in the mix with Dominator's. Again just my 2 cents MJ :)

Waiting on the FireBird another gyro that I think will be Safety and Stable.
So hurry Paul. :)

[Nuff_Sed]

Hi again..

Doug, your comments are exactly what went through my mind re: the number of Dominator owners vs. Butterfly owners "talking up" their fave machines, and I've sifted through all of that.

Here's where I'm sitting in terms of my decision making, and how I got there.

A good friend of mine is the local (South African) distributor of the UFO Helithruster, who was at Oshkosh and is/will be at Mentone. He's been battling forever to get the "Thruster" in the air. I'm not sure of the reasons so I cannot comment on that without guessing. Through him, I got hooked as I've seen him in a Magni, RAF etc....

So for me, first choice, in an Ideal world, would therefor be a Magni, Ela, or MT-03.

In the real world - these machines get imported into SA on a SA Rand to Euro exchange rate of R 9.66 to 1 Euro. So take the base price of any of these machines and multiply it by 9.66. Ouch!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, I'm not one of the fortunate few in South Africa who can whip out a checkbook and just order one.

So along comes a day where I stumble across the Butterfly website, and I start looking at those great innovations. So now I look at the price.

$17 495.00 for a Monarch with a 582 Rotax, stock standard, without all the "goodies".

Rand vs Dollar exchange rate - 1 Dollar will cost me R 7.06. Soooo - A nice gyro will cost me R 124, 000.00. So, it is possible to save up a bit ( a year or two) and then buy one - PROVIDED that the Rand stays stable against the Dollar, which I can safely predict, it won't.

BTW a standard Chrysler Sebring costs R 219, 900.00 in SA just by means of comparison as to what a Rand buys in SA vs what a Dollar buys in the States.

Then a day comes along whilst looking at Gyro related videos on Youtube and I see two vids where Ron Awad flies the bejesus out of a Dominator, so I whip over to the Dominator website and I see a great looking Gyro that can either be bought "piecemeal" in pre-assembled components, or as a plans-built option.

So, going the Dominator route I'll get a great machine, get to buy it in "parts", have the parts accumulate in my garage where I can see them take shape, plus I can get many, many components locally from reliable sources at a fraction of the imported price.

I will , no matter what, stay with Dragonwings rotors, a pre-welded frame, precut face plates and Alu bits from Ernie, for instance.

I can also draw on a wealth of experience from my pal, Gary. BTW he is also a registered instructor and test pilot...

All-in all, my choice is still leaning towards the Dominator for these reasons:

1. COST without sacrificing safety and/or performance and handling.
2. Hands-on process when it comes to assembly and "acquiring" the parts needed. When the frame is assembled, and the seat is in, I can sit in it and make "BRRRRR BRRRRR" noises.
3. Even whilst the assemblies are lying in my garage in parts, its going to be "my gyro" and not money accumulating in a bank account in the hope of buying a gyro sometime in the future... Just my "human side" coming out.

I bet both Larry and Ernie are great guys as my contact with them was purely by e-mail, but I will NEVER base my decision on personality, or personalities.

Its also not purely about price alone. If that were the case, I would be in the process of building a Gyrobee already. I just don't have the confidence that I'll be able to do that from scratch. Yes, I can get a kit-build process on the go for a Gyrobee, but then that option is getting very close to Dominator territory, price-wise.

I know this sound like a lot of "dribble" to most, but I'm sure that many others out there (especially those in Countries with less favorable exchange rates) will go through/, or will go through this same agonizing process.

As far as I see it, I'm not sacrificing anything as far as safety is concerned, whilst being able to get into the air quicker and become a proud Gyronaut soon.

For me, my situation and my own idiosyncrasies, the Dominator will be me choice. In fact, just after this post, I'm going to e-mail Ernie and ask him to prepare my invoice for a set of plans, an assembly manual and a video. NUFF SED :peace:

Thanks to all for your honest, sincere and valid points. Soon I'll get a thread going to log my process and progress.

Cheers!!!!!

[Nuff_Sed]

Hi again..

GyroDoug, your comments are exactly what went through my mind re: the number of Dominator owners vs. Butterfly owners "talking up" their fave machines, and I've sifted through all of that.

Here's where I'm sitting in terms of my decision making, and how I got there.

A good friend of mine is the local (South African) distributor of the UFO Helithruster, who was at Oshkosh and is/will be at Mentone. He's been battling forever to get the "Thruster" in the air. I'm not sure of the reasons so I cannot comment on that without guessing. Through him, I got hooked as I've seen him in a Magni, RAF etc....

So for me, first choice, in an Ideal world, would therefor be a Magni, Ela, or MT-03.

In the real world - these machines get imported into SA on a SA Rand to Euro exchange rate of R 9.66 to 1 Euro. So take the base price of any of these machines and multiply it by 9.66. Ouch!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, I'm not one of the fortunate few in South Africa who can whip out a checkbook and just order one.

So along comes a day where I stumble across the Butterfly website, and I start looking at those great innovations. So now I look at the price.

$17 495.00 for a Monarch with a 582 Rotax, stock standard, without all the "goodies".

Rand vs Dollar exchange rate - 1 Dollar will cost me R 7.06. Soooo - A nice gyro will cost me R 124, 000.00. So, it is possible to save up a bit ( a year or two) and then buy one - PROVIDED that the Rand stays stable against the Dollar, which I can safely predict, it won't.

BTW a standard Chrysler Sebring costs R 219, 900.00 in SA just by means of comparison as to what a Rand buys in SA vs what a Dollar buys in the States.

Then a day comes along whilst looking at Gyro related videos on Youtube and I see two vids where Ron Awad flies the bejesus out of a Dominator, so I whip over to the Dominator website and I see a great looking Gyro that can either be bought "piecemeal" in pre-assembled components, or as a plans-built option.

So, going the Dominator route I'll get a great machine, get to buy it in "parts", have the parts accumulate in my garage where I can see them take shape, plus I can get many, many components locally from reliable sources at a fraction of the imported price.

I will , no matter what, stay with Dragonwings rotors, a pre-welded frame, precut face plates and Alu bits from Ernie, for instance.

I can also draw on a wealth of experience from my pal, Gary. BTW he is also a registered instructor and test pilot...

All-in all, my choice is still leaning towards the Dominator for these reasons:

1. COST without sacrificing safety and/or performance and handling.
2. Hands-on process when it comes to assembly and "acquiring" the parts needed. When the frame is assembled, and the seat is in, I can sit in it and make "BRRRRR BRRRRR" noises. I already have a Subaru engine, prepped, and ready for assembly...
3. Even whilst the assemblies are lying in my garage in parts, its going to be "my gyro" and not money accumulating in a bank account in the hope of buying a gyro sometime in the future... Just my "human side" coming out.

I bet both Larry and Ernie are great guys as my contact with them was purely by e-mail, but I will NEVER base my decision on personality, or personalities.

Its also not purely about price alone. If that were the case, I would be in the process of building a Gyrobee already. I just don't have the confidence that I'll be able to do that from scratch. Yes, I can get a kit-build process on the go for a Gyrobee, but then that option is getting very close to Dominator territory, price-wise.

I know this sound like a lot of "dribble" to most, but I'm sure that many others out there (especially those in Countries with less favorable exchange rates) will go through/, or will go through this same agonizing process.

As far as I see it, I'm not sacrificing anything as far as safety is concerned, whilst being able to get into the air quicker and become a proud Gyronaut soon.

For me, my situation and my own idiosyncrasies, the Dominator will be me choice. In fact, just after this post, I'm going to e-mail Ernie and ask him to prepare my invoice for a set of plans, an assembly manual and a video. NUFF SED :peace:

Thanks to all for your honest, sincere and valid points. Soon I'll get a thread going to log my process and progress.

Cheers!!!!!

[Timchick]

I think you'd be happy with either one. If you're choosing between a Dominator and a Monarch you're in a win-win situation. You can't lose no matter which one you pick.

I like the option of leaving the G-force landing gear up. I wonder if it could be left up for normal landings and just released/lowered if a pilot needs to make an emergency landing?

Ron E. are you a dealer for Ernie?

[GyroDoug]

Tim,

With the G-Force Landing Gear and the Gear Selector you can leave the gear in the up position and land in that configuration. With the gear in the up position you still have some suspension travel (very similar to most other gyros) you just loose the ability to come down very fast and absorb all of the extra force with the suspension system. So you really don't have to worry about forgetting to drop the gear unless you plan on coming in steep and fast. (then you'd better drop the gear)

Gyro Doug

[Rotornut]

Doug, Great Post's. MJ :)

[Ron E]

I
Ron E. are you a dealer for Ernie?

I am marketing his products to my overseas customers. The world is a big place. I just got an inquiry from a businessman in Bangladesh, of all places ! I talked to another prospect in the UAE today. So far, it looks promising.

I've got to find a CFI with a 2-place Dominator to do some flight training. The customers will come to the US to train and then take their machine(s) back. Gyro CFI's are very hard to find in some countries.

Just trying to help balance the U.S. trade deficit.

[bones]

The Dominator has a tall tail which cancels out the effects of engine torque since the rudder and horizontal stabilizer is fully immersed in the prop wash. The Butterfly has only a half-ass tail. So, you have to deal with the torque when you add throttle and on takeoff.

When your engine stops, the tall tail gives you better directional control because the rudder is in the free air steam above and below the gyro structure. The Butterfly has only a half-ass tail, which is mostly in the shadow of the engine and pilot in front of it.
Thanks,
Ron

Ron one might want to watch what he types about certain tail designs, there are alot more half size tails(full flying) than tall tails, might even be as much as 2 to 1, most if not near all the mustering machines in Oz have these and they would have more hours than any of your dominators for eg., and there is NOTHING dangerous or unsafe about these tails, you see just cause your flogging off a machine with a tall tail no need to go mouthing off at half tails.
Just my 2 cents worth :violin:

[Aussie_Paul]

and there is NOTHING dangerous or unsafe about these tails,

Just my 2 cents worth :violin:


I agree Mark.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Ron E]

Mark (Bones),

I see nothing in my post that states or implies "danger" or being "unsafe" relating to the "half-ass tail", as I term them, when compared to a "big-ass tail", as I term them, meaning a tall tail. Those are your words.

The issues I raised with the "half-ass tails" are just dealt with by the trained pilot, just like fixed-wing pilots deal with "P-factor" on takeoff and climb-out.

I merely have a personal preference and briefly gave my reasoning for this preference, pointing out what I believed to be the obvious differences.

I also set out my qualifications in the post by stating: "That is just my take on it, and I am not a gyro designer or an expert on this subject. I own and fly a Dominator Ultrawhite with a 503 Rotax engine."

It was not my intention to offend or debase all those "half-ass tails" out there.

[BUD ONEAL]

Ron,
I agree with you, PLEASE change your avatar back to the girls!!

[Harry_S.]

I'm glad to hear that.


Cheers :)

[JRB549]

Ron, Your post may be right about you intenions, however I think half tail or short tail might be friendly from a posting point of view for all without any misunderstandings.

[BUD ONEAL]

Thank you Ron.

[Ron E]

Thank you Ron.

Glad to do it! That fellow with the big happy smile was just too scary.

He got voted off.

Back to the want-to-be-a-model babes.

[bones]

Mark (Bones),

I see nothing in my post that states or implies "danger" or being "unsafe" relating to the "half-ass tail", as I term them, when compared to a "big-ass tail", as I term them, meaning a tall tail. Those are your words.


Ron, I to never said you said(if oyu know what i mean) that they were dangerous or unsafe i was just putting a point up there as the question was about differences between gyros and you were bagging half tail, i was mearly putting forward MY opinion of the tails, and the fact that you need to put a bit of rudder in is not too much of a big deal, the same thing happens with a lot of other flying craft, helicopters are prone to this too you pull pitch and you need to put or take rudder away also :wave:

Bones

[GyroDoug]

I believe Mark was accurate in what he said about tall tails vs short tails, however I don't think he got into it, far enough, to tell the whole story. I asked Larry Neal why he chose to use a short tail on the Super Sky Cycle since it seemed to me that the tall tail he used on his 2 place made more sense. This is the response he posted on his website about why he as a designer chose the short tail for his single place.


"We chose the fully flying "T" tail for the Butterfly single place ships for several reasons.

First let's talk about the tall tail. It is a good design and we use it on the Golden Butterfly two place trainer. By putting the rotor up at 11' tall we can also put the tall tail on a very long moment arm which makes it very powerful. Our Butterfly tails are of a true airfoil design which makes them twice as effective as a flat plate design. If the front edge of a tail has a sharp point, it kills the airfoil effect and acts like a flat plate. The swirl of air coming off the propeller is equalized on the top and bottom halves of a tall tail (if the tail is equally centered in the prop blast, but in most designs it isn't) and the result is a little efficiency gained by not having to offset the tail to one side to adjust for the swirl just hitting the bottom half.

The down side of the tall tail is that you have to have the complexity of a second upper support bar to hold the top of the tail. That bar has to clear the top of the propeller and also the rotor blades. This means that the mast has to be raised up several more inches and the tail is also limited on the distance it can be placed behind the Rotor Lift Vector (kind of like the pivot on a weather vane). The center of the pressure (the area vertically where the side surface area of the vehicle in flight is equal fore and aft) can be moved a lot farther behind the Rotor Lift Vector with the shorter "T" tail. This is like putting a larger fin on a weather vane and keeps the aircraft from wanting to swap ends in flight and be more stable in yaw at all airspeeds. The tall tail is usually placed right behind the propeller which limits it's moment arm from the rotor lift vector. Most tall tails have the horizontal stabilizer attached to the rudder so this also limits the possible moment arm of the horizontal stabilizer. This is not good.

We chose the fully flying "T" tail (a one piece tail that pivots as one unit with the horizontal stabilizer centered ion the prop blast) because we can place it farther away from the aircraft Rotor Lift Vector and we can also keep the mast shorter. The shorter the mast on a Gyroplane the more maneuverable it is. The taller the mast the more sluggish it is. This means we can move the tail a few feet farther behind the Rotor Lift Vector and have the shorter mast at the same time. This also means the horizontal stabilizer can also be moved back a few feet farther which makes an unbelievable stable flying machine.

On the Monarch we simply offset the tail 1" to the right with different cable lengths and the pedals are centered on normal flight. In testing I have flown the Monarch all over the airport without my feet on the pedals, using only throttle and control stick.

Remember the test of a tail is measured on how much of a direct crosswind that you can take off and land in. Every Butterfly model will take off and land in a 30 mph direct crosswind. It has been noticed at major gyro gatherings that when all the other brands are parked because of a large crosswind component, the Butterfly's are the only ones still flying."

Larry's explanation goes into a lot more details and explains why he (as a designer) has chosen the tall tail for some of his models and the short tail for others. I had to read this answer several times and think about it for a while before I really understood what he was saying and I still occasionally feel like my understanding of the subject gets clearer as I read another article on the subject. But I hope this will be of use to some of the readers here on the forum.

Gyro Doug

[Doug Riley]

While feet-on-floor yaw stability is indeed very pleasant, the most important function of the tall tail is to reduce the tendency of the gyro to roll upside down from engine torque during low G events. This type of low-G problem is sometimes called "torque-over". In a severe case, it resembles a PPO, except it's a roll-over instead of a pitch-over. The end result is the same either way.

A half-height rudder cannot provide this advantage unless its h-stab is very large. Without this torque compensation by the tail surfaces, the rotor must be tipped slightly off-center and the gyro will fly with one wheel slightly lower than the other. Gyronauts generally adjust their pushrods to make one shorter than the other -- this way, the stick is centered when the rotor is appropriately off-center. You'll still need to hold pressure to keep the rotor off-center, though, unless you also adjust the trim spring to pull a bit sideways.

Gyros with short tails can often be seen to do a little "wriggle" just as they leave the deck.

It would be interesting to hear how much torque cancelling the Xenon gets by virtue of its large HS (in lieu of a tall tail).

[GyroDoug]

Doug,

You said:

[QUOTE= the most important function of the tall tail is to reduce the tendency of the gyro to roll upside down from engine torque during low G events. This type of low-G problem is sometimes called "torque-over".

Isn't what you are describing, addressed in what Larry said about offsetting the rudder slightly to one side? It seems to me that Larry is saying by offsetting the rudder slightly he is able to counter the effect of the rudder being hit by the propeller slip stream coming from one side (due to the corkscrewing direction of the propeller blast). Are we are talking about 2 different issues? It sounds to me like he is saying that force can be simply countered and you are saying his solution would not be enough and it would take an abnormally large HS to counter the force being described. Help me understand the issue !!!

Thanks,

Gyro Doug

[Doug Riley]

Doug, if you cock the rudder enough so that it "disappears" for yaw purposes, then the rolling torque is left entirely unopposed -- unless you tip the rotor.

[GyroDoug]

Doug,

Thanks, I think I understand now.

So how much torque are we talking about? Is it enough that most Gyro pilots (without a tall tail) adjust their push rods and trim springs or is it something they just get used to adjusting with the cyclic without thinking about it?

Gyro Doug

[Ron E]

Mr. Riley,

Speaking of the "cork screw effect" mentioned by GyroDoug, at 5:49 minutes in the video linked below, look at the angle of the HS on the Monarch Butterfly on takeoff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlyR-aSEuig

The HS appears to be twisted clockwise about 5 to 7 degrees on takeoff. I presume this is caused by the twisted airflow coming from the prop blast causing the HS to move against its attachment point(s).

Therefore, wouldn't the tall tail with the centered HS act as a "stator" and tend to straighten-out the airflow in the prop blast, thus making the thrust from the prop slightly higher than non-straighten, tornado-like airflow. Isn't this another benefit to a tall tail setup?

I deal with this issue in ducted fans quite often with hovercraft propulsion and lift pressure ducts. Stators in ducted fans improve performance and efficiency, and the volume of flow is improved too.

For the record, I appreciate Larry Neil's attitude and accomplishments in gyroplane innovation.

[Harry_S.]

So how much torque are we talking about? Is it enough that most Gyro pilots (without a tall tail) adjust their push rods and trim springs or is it something they just get used to adjusting with the cyclic without thinking about it?

Gyro Doug



The first part of your question...if I may interrupt here...is usually performed for the new pilot as applied by the instructor. I believe everyone would endorse this?!

I personally have my machine rigged "straight away." By that I mean, there is no rigging for torque. A lot of gyro experienced pilots, not all by any means, prefer to control their aircraft with the three primary controls.

If in-flight trim adjustments are available for cruise flight, so much the better.


Cheers :)

[Doug Riley]

Doug, torque for the Rotax engines is published by Rotax. They give torque at the crank; multiply by the redrive ratio to get torque on the frame.

To derive torque when you know horsepower and RPM, multiply the HP by 33,000. Then divide this (big) number by (2 times pi times RPM). Pi equals 3.14.

Torque for an engine that makes 50 hp at 6500 RPM is about 40 ft.-lb. Multiplied by the usual Rotax redrive ratio of 2.58 gets you to about 103 ft.-lb. on the frame. Not a trivial torque!

Yes, straightening out the flow with vanes gets you a little more thrust, on top of your torque compensation. It's another side benefit of "un-corkscrewing" your propwash. That may be why light Dominators are a bit more lively than the (even lighter) Gyrobee.

Harry, I've never bothered with shortening one pushrod. Good gyro flying (with an offset gimbal head) is done by feel and pressure, not by stick position. Moving the stick's neutral posiiton about with rod length does not change the pressures; only a spring or other force-making gadget can do that.

The rear stick in my trainer had a neutral a few degrees off to one side. The students did find it confusing until they moved to front-seat. Apparently newbies DO start out watching stick position. We hope they get beyond that eventually.

You should ALMOST be able to fly a gyro blindfolded, by feel alone... almost.

[Harry_S.]

The rear stick in my trainer had a neutral a few degrees off to one side. The students did find it confusing until they moved to front-seat. Apparently newbies DO start out watching stick position. We hope they get beyond that eventually.

You should ALMOST be able to fly a gyro blindfolded, by feel alone... almost.





May I take that as a compliment, Doug?! Thank you.

I also take it as recognition of the fact...regardless of experience, you're not infallible.


Cheers :)

[Nuff_Sed]

bones, GyroDoug, Doug Riley, Ron E, Harry S.

Please guys - ride this horse till it drops! This info and discussion is invaluable for me as a newbie.

I saw Ron Awad's comments on the Bee Different, ans also the pics on this forum, and if I'm not mistaken, the Bee Different gyro also has a tall tail? According to Ron it's a very impressive machine.....

Thanks again for the posts and discussions - I'm soooooooo happy I found this forum!!!! :first: