Futura from AeroCopter Span [Archive]

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Brent_Brown

11-25-2003, 02:43 AM

Looks like a Exec body was used for this cool gyro it has a 1100cc BMW boxer motor for power.

Brent_Brown

11-25-2003, 02:46 AM

on the ground

Brent_Brown

11-25-2003, 02:47 AM

I want one

Gary_in_Orygun

11-25-2003, 03:59 AM

There is another one of those long nose gear struts just waiting to break in the soft ground like AAI recently fixed.

Brent_Brown

11-25-2003, 06:14 AM

Maybe

Brent_Brown

11-25-2003, 06:15 AM

But it looks like you can fly with the doors on.

Hognose

11-26-2003, 09:31 AM

Fly with the doors on -- sure. Plenty of fin, that's why. Doors are not a problem unless they cause a shift of the centre of pressure too far forward, that the vertical stab (or other vertical surfaces aft of the centre of mass) can't overcome. If they do, you will have a very "footy" gyro -- basic physics, centre of pressure needs to be behind the centre of mass for stability. I thought this gyro was really interestiing and looked it up in Google... found no website but a few hits. It was introduced in Madrid in 2002. The cabin is an adapted Rotorway one. It took 70-80 metres (230-260 ft) to take off and landed practically vertically. The poster (in a spanish aviation newsgroup) was astounded that the factory pilot claimed that it flew better in some wind ("that makes hovering and sideways flight possible,") so he's clearly not an old gyro hand. He claims speeds of 170 top, 140 cruise (that's Km/h; in MPH 104/85 and in knots 92/76. So it's in the same ballpark with other two-seat cabin gyroplanes. The prototype was shown all around Europe in 2002/03 and has the BMW bike engine mentioned, but references to it on the net say that it will also take a Soob. The web site appears defunct: http://www.aerocopter-europa.com/index.html. This page mentions the site on its "photos that'll kill ya" page: http://perso.club-internet.fr/rvtpanet/Photos%20qui%20tuent/photos_qui_tuent.htm but it still has the busted link. Anybody have further information? cheers -=K=-

RHerron

11-26-2003, 10:47 AM

Looks OK to me.  A J-2 with a splash of Groen Brothers' Hawk.

Brent_Brown

11-26-2003, 11:49 PM

It has rotorsport big blades and head. The BMW is not good in this gyro it will overheat.  The Sub makes anything a wqeight pig. A 914 would work best or a MZ 301P, Hirth F30, 3701. I posted this photo on the rotorcraft forum that was going under but is still up and running, what ever. someone posted a flying price of 68,000 U.S. I will not be getting one anytime soon. Still looks cool.

PW_Plack

11-27-2003, 05:12 AM

Looks as if they decided to preserve a favorable thrust alignment, picking a small, multi-blade prop at the expense of some efficiency.

Brent_Brown

11-27-2003, 10:30 AM

How do you see it small? I bet it is over 68" small would be under 60 " to me.

Hognose

11-28-2003, 03:52 AM

Looks as if they decided to preserve a favorable thrust alignment, picking a small, multi-blade prop at the expense of some efficiency. Well, Paul, we dunno what gearing they have. That scooter engine would have to make its HP at a bazillion RPMs. Depending on what the prop shaft gears down to, you might be forced into a small prop to keep away from compressibility in the tips. (Carter did some inadvertent research in that domain back in 1998-99). I've always wondered why no one in XA/UL ever used a planetary gearbox to provide counterrotating props. (Maybe someone did and I didn't know). Designing the gearbox is straightforward enough. Doug Schwochert designed and built a simple gearbox to reverse the output of a Solar turbine; Jim Stewart (I think it was him) designed a great gearbox for auto conversions. Why not a CR prop gearbox? The trade-off downside on the 4-cycle Rotaxes is maintainability and warranty. You know, if you burn cylinders in a fresh Continental, there is a pro-rata warranty (BTDT). Do it in a Rotax and "esta tu don mierde" as the excitable fellows down south say. ("you're Lord Ca-ca" more or less).  Or K MAGYOYO as the Army acronym put it. Even Rotax OEM customers get blown off for parts and service... which is why you can't buy a new plane with a certified 912 any more, the manufacturer redesigned the plane to use a different motor. If you lunch a Soob, you buy a new Soob. No warranty at all in this application. If you compare a Soob with a VW, the Soob weighs more but makes twice the power. Soobs are more properly compared with aero engines of equivalent power, like a 320. (and then, where's the weight benefit?). I'm wondering if an O-235 would be in interesting choice for a gyro. I'd have to look up the weights. Carter has run LS-1 Corvette engines with some success in their larger, heavier machine. An earlier attempt to use a auto racing V-6 failed miserably. cheers -=K=-

Brent_Brown

11-28-2003, 04:01 AM

Go to this web site for BMW specs http://www.takeoff-ul.de/

PW_Plack

11-28-2003, 08:43 AM

Brent, After looking at several pictures, including some with humans standing next to it for perespective, your 68-inch guestimate seems about right. Still, with that much machine to push, and that much room under the tall mast, you know it must have been tempting to go bigger.

Brent_Brown

11-29-2003, 06:02 AM

I got to see the web site and the prop is inflight adjustable too.

Terry_Smith

11-29-2003, 02:09 PM

;D *I tried the above link and was able to go to their site and look at the gyro info.  Looks great! Terry

Hognose

11-30-2003, 12:54 AM

Sure enough, when I switch off "block pop-ups" (a menu item on my browser that sensibly defaults to "on," I was able to see the web site. Thanks, Steven, for the tip. It never occurred to me that web designers that dim were still employed anywhere! From a usability standpoint, it's the worst website I've seen since the nineties... lots of ugly chartreuse, little real information, but there is real info there. You just have to fight your way through the jungles of Flash and crap to find it. The machine is a prototype that is some months from shipping.  It looks like visibility from the pilot's seat would be not too good compared to RAF or AAI's machines, let alone an open gyro. Thanks also to the gent that posted the BMW information. It looks like a good deal till you start adding up the prices on the a la carte menu. The thing is that the BMW motor is 72 or 75 HP (they offer two versions) so it probably is going to give you a pretty lame climb with 2 on board the Futura. It's pretty light for a 4-stroke with 75 HP though, and it's a compact, attractive motor. I think that you are getting a break on it with the Futura kit. More HP won't make you go much faster (especially not safely) but it will make you climb out more briskly -- anybody that has watched RAF doing demo flights with both the regular Soob and Duane's more powerful machine on hand has seen it in action. Climb performance is part of safety... or is it, operating your machine within its climb performance limits? cheers -=K=-

Brent_Brown

11-30-2003, 02:08 AM

here more getting ready to be shipped.

Hognose

11-30-2003, 02:15 AM

OK, apart from b----ing about the website, here are some facts from it: Price - 55,000 w/BMW (75 HP?) 58,000 w/Subaru not including tax and shipping (Euros)  (about 66,000 and 70,400 at today's rate). Delivery - four months from order The site doesn't say if that is a kit or a completed a/c. Empty weight     270 kg (594 lb) MTOW                450 kg (990 lb) Height                315 cm (124 in)    [10 feet 4 inches] Length               390 cm (153.5 in) [12 feet 9.5 inches] Width                 210 cm (82.7 in)   [6 feet 10.7 inches] Rotor Diameter   850 cm (334.6 in) [27 feet 10.6 inches] Performance --------------- Min Vel                40 km/h   (24 mph/22kt) Max Vel              190 km/h  (116 mph/103 kt) Cruise                160 km/h  (98 mph/86 kt) Take Off             100 m       (328 ft) Landing                  5 m       (16 ft) Included ----------- Luxury interior 4-point belts Instrumentation (altimeter, rate-of-climb, turn-and-bank, airspeed, engine and rotor tachometers, oil pressure and temperature, water temperature, radio/intercom [MicroAir 760], compass, fuel gage, hour meter Navigation, strobe and landing lights hydraulic brakes 3-bladed Woodcomp Kremen prop, electrically adjustable inflight Sport Copter rotors (8.5m) incorporating a high energy prerotator (250 rpm). Rotor and wheel brakes, ported and ventilated. Your choice of colours. ===== Commentary: Performance numbers different from what was cited in the report from the airshow. No word on whether these are demonstrated or estimated numbers. The weights are fishy, and are less than other 2-place machines. Useful load is low (and payload? Well, without more on fuel tankage we can't know that, or range). Useful load with the Soob would probably make the machine a functional single-seater. So far it looks like only the one prototype is flying. No word on customer aircraft or even a second prototype. They claim 100 HP from the BMW 1100. Price is kind of high for what you get. If you want to pay premium price for a high-touch gyroplane, the Magni has that, and has a safety record, and excellent US representation. Boy, I wasn't gonna say this again, but that website is the lamest and worst designed in the aviation industry. You can't even copy text off the page because the retard that "developed" it (it's all done with freebie amateur javascript off the net) disabled that. Why? It also takes the entire size of my screen (1280 x 854) and puts a little info window in the middle. The design of the website is so oriented to visual-stunts-above-fact, that I wouldn't personally trust the company. The website also does not identify ANY individuals involved with the company, or talk about stability AT ALL, or aerodynamics AT ALL. Compare that to your experience trying to learn about Dominator, or Sport Copter, or AAI or RAF. We have had a lot of problems in aviation with machines that were "styled" and the engineering, if any, was applied afterward. Need I name names (keeping it out of gyros, BD-5, [heck, BD-anything!], Dream Wings, those ring a bell?). Again -- it adds up to an interesting concept but looks like it would be an extremely risky purchase without a lot more information... information that they must have but are sitting on, for some reason. If you want a 2-place enclosed gyro, side-by-side, AAI, RAF, and Barnett will sell you one today (for half the price of this). If all you need is 2-place the market opens up. Magni is working on an enclosed tandem machine, Barnett has one already, and I'm probably forgetting somebody. cheers -=K=-

Terry_Smith

11-30-2003, 07:31 AM

::) *Well, I have to agree, that besides it looking like a great gyro, looks won't prevent you from being killed if it's a poorly designed craft. *Personally, my 2 choices for gyro are either the Sportcopter or Magni gyro. *And, due to an 18 month old bundle of joy and getting other bills cleared out first, I don't expect to be cavorting in the air in my own gyro for at least another 9 or 10 years. *Still, by then, I'll have saved enough to afford a Magni or Sportcopter and get a trailer for it, as well as getting my pilots license. *Time and money is all it takes :) Terry

GyroRon

11-30-2003, 09:58 AM

For 60 to 70 grand I would buy a nice low time RV-4 or RV-6 fixed wing that will do short field with the best of them, and cruise at 170+ mph, and take the change and buy a sparrowhawk. How anyone could write a check for over 30 grand for a gyro is way beyond me.

Terry_Smith

11-30-2003, 02:41 PM

Steven,   I went to Oregon a few months ago and visited the Sportcopter factory and was impressed with the quality of the Sportcopter.  I haven't seen the Magni gyro in person, but from their video, they look very well built as well.  If I go Magni, it will either be the M-14 (their sporty model) or the M-20 Talon which is still in the testing phase.  Though, by the time I get around to getting one, who knows what will be available?  Probably a few more choices for me to look at.  Good luck with your SPortcopter, and keep us informed as to your progress with it (pictures, etc!) Terry

Echo

11-30-2003, 04:28 PM

For those of you that havent seen it , this is one of Owen Dull,s machines. Carbon fibre/kevlar Rotax 912 , or Sub 4 EA81. flys great, good price- why look at anything else?          Cheers Echo

Echo

11-30-2003, 04:35 PM

This machine is unfinished ; painting, harness's,prop wheel spats etc to be done. ( 270kg with EA81). echo

Echo

11-30-2003, 04:43 PM

Steve, * * * * * *I will find Owen's e-mail for you- it was posted on rotorcraft forum. He will build a complete gyro or cab. Excellent quality & finish , I had mine made in fibreglass to see how it would go compared to carbon - slightly heavier but heaps cheaper. * Echo

Whirlydog

12-01-2003, 02:05 AM

Echo. I like the looks of this machine. *I take it that this Owen guy doesn't have a website. Does He have an address and what would be the cost for an info pack. Even if He can't afford a web site, maybe you can get him invovled on this forum. *I am sure there may be others interested in finding out more about this aircraft. Shawn

doug

12-01-2003, 11:38 AM

I too am very interested in communicating with Owen and learning more about his machine. thanks, Doug

Hognose

12-01-2003, 07:30 PM

So I think it's probably just fine for one person and marginally adequate for two. Steve and guys, I think that it might be OK for lean and hungry Euro-zone humans, but for beef-eating dollar-zoners it might be a bit anemic. I did find that while the engine outfit that somebody posted claims 75 HP out of the BMW 1100, AeroCopter claims 110. That might be more in line with what you expected. Why do you say visibility would be poor? *To the rear maybe, but I think it's very helicopter-like and highly attractive. No lie that it's a good-looking unit. I have seen enough such beautiful aircraft that are too-good-to-be-true that I tend to be very skeptical of new developments that are strong on sizzle. This is unfair when a decent company comes along with a lot of sizzle atop a solid design, and occasionally I eat some crow. But I don't wind up like 5,000 BD-5 kit buyers watching for the postman to come and bring them their drivetrain parts (thirty years later now... news flash: he ain't coming). Or like 500 Mini-500 buyers who found out only too late that the cute-looking thing was a killer (I believe the body count stands at 11). On visibility, what I did was mentally put myself in the pilot's seat. And I found I had to mentally lean forward to look to my right because the curve of the cabin is in the way. But, maybe my mental imaginings are just plain mental. cheers -=K=-

Whirlydog

12-02-2003, 09:18 AM

Seeing the pictures of the two different bird here and the Polish one in the general thread, raises a question. *Outside of the AAI Sparrowhawk (wich is still in progress ) Why does it seem that all the enclosed two seaters seem to be coming from outside the USA. *It kinda makes that "company within driving distance" a mute point. :-/ Shawn

pwendell

12-04-2003, 05:40 PM

Actually the website for the BMW engines states it develops up to 100 HP. This seems quite reasonable to me. BMW claims 95 HP for 1150 CC engine in RS trim and 98 HP for the 1100 CC engine in S trim. These are very nice engines and are claimed by BMW to be able to run all day at only a couple hundred revs below red line. They are light weight and can really take abuse. Plus they are fuel injected, catalysed and quiet. I do question the claim that they are only 35% cooled by air however. The BMW air/oil cooling scheme essentially provides a few high pressure oil outputs underneath the piston crowns and at the exhaust ports to supplement pur air cooling in those areas.

I owned an R1100 R for many years and rode it every single day. It never let me down.

Hognose

12-06-2003, 10:51 PM

I do question the claim that they are only 35% cooled by air however. The BMW air/oil cooling scheme essentially provides a few high pressure oil outputs underneath the piston crowns and at the exhaust ports to supplement pur air cooling in those areas.

Heh. Interesting, Peter. The hi-pressure oil jets are nothing too new, most aero engines have the same (and they are also responsible for a lot of cooling there). Subaru engines also have ooil jets directed at the underside of the pistons -- at least the EJ22 does.

Fuel/air mixture also makes a contribution to cooling -- at least, until it's touched off! I'm sure there are many SAE papers with dull mathematics that would let us calculate the percentages... as long as it adds up to low wear, most of us don't care how the engine maker does it.

cheers

-=K=-

Hognose

12-06-2003, 11:13 PM

Outside of the AAI Sparrowhawk (wich is still in progress ) Why does it seem that all the enclosed two seaters seem to be coming from outside the USA.

Shawn

Well, there's the Barnett BRC 540, which is shipping (beyond which I know next to nothing about it). The RAF is only from Canada, it's not like it's in New Zealand to visit there. And they have (or had) dealers.

I think the basic deal is this: there are a relatively few people interested in gyroplanes. There are probably less than two million pilots in the world, and gyronauts are a subset of similar magnitude, I'd guess. On the upside, it means even the luminaries of the field are approachable. Maybe there are thirty thousand people seriously interested (i.e. building, flying, scheming, researching) in gyroplanes. In the world.

That small handful of folks exist in clusters here and there, usually around successful(?) gyro entrepreneurs, but those clusters are scattered all to hell and gone across the civilised lands of the planet. So interesting aircraft show up in Spain, Poland, Russia, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. None of them can really market well beyond his home continent -- very frustrating for people accustomed to having the best of world production in anything available from a local dealer or by telephone. I mean, how many of us drive a car that was made near home? Where was your computer made?

But, the distant manufacturers of gyroplanes can't afford to finance dealers around the world. Dealers, for their part, can't afford to stock aircraft. So if you are interested in, say, a Magni, you go to Greg and fly in his and decide you want it, and then have to wait for it to come from Italy. I'm sure Greg would like to have inventory on hand, but can't tie up that kind of money, and the same is true for any US rep of an overseas gyro, or overseas rep of a US one.

The small scale of the market means that even the most successful entrepreneur is usually scaled to fit. This means that he is one catastrophe away from dissolution (remember Farrington?). There isn't enough surplus in any one vendor for there even to be a decent market for worthwhile intellectual property at auction. There isn't enough surplus for decent R&D, and by that I mean real R&D with instrumented aircraft and proper flight test engineering. That's one reason that we still have debates about things like stability that should be settled, at least among the designers: the (scientific) literature is terribly thin, and many of the guys designing gyroplanes can't read it anyway.

The most interesting action I have seen, to deal with this intractable set of facts, is the set of actions taken by AAI (and by Jay and David Groen and company) to grow the market. Mind you, the CarterCopter is revolutionary technology that can not only change gyroplane flying, but has the potential to change the world. But it's the way that Groen/AAI plans to sell the gyroplane concept to people who are not currently in the in-group, that has the most potential for success. But there are no guarantees in life except death and taxes.

cheers

-=K=-

MattPearson

12-17-2003, 06:08 PM

Kevin,
I think you are right on the money. If your a gyro manufacture, you better have a day job, and if your going to put something out there, you better have examined your target customer base and found out what they want. AAI seems to have really made an effort to do this. The only real thing that is missing in this modern time is financing. If a gyro manufacture such as Magni, for example, was able to market a gyro such as the M-20 Talon, a proven high performance design with stunning looks and provide financing, they couldn't make enough of them to keep up the demand. As it stands, this and many other aircraft like it are distant dreams for such a very few that a parent company could not possibly survive for long because of the lack of income.

Gyro pilots are a fringe group among an already elite hobby and I believe that if we are ever going to attract more raving fans, the face of Gyrocopters is going to have to change.

GyroRon

12-17-2003, 06:30 PM

Matt, You said WE..... Does this mean you are sticking with gyros? I mean you said you were selling and getting into fixed wings. If that was the case then you should have said YOUS GUYS ;)

I am just checking to see if you got the gyro bug back ;D

Heron

12-18-2003, 05:18 AM

The only way to fix this market is by networking.
If you look at you cel phone you will see at least 5 coutries involved in one complete unit.
Regional reps and dealers can acommodate small stock and make up for a quota (year) that will kepp the manufacts busy.
And go after the general population, a gyro in the air is the best marketing for our little buzzers.
Thanks
Heron

MattPearson

12-18-2003, 05:59 AM

Ron, I think I am frustrated with gyros for the very reasons I explained, but I know from flying mine what the potential could be. If BJ Schramm can sell a turbine powered high performance helicopter for $31K then someone should be able to sell a totally kick butt, sleek, powerful, high performance gyro for a lot less!
I did solo the other day in a Cherokee and as soon as I am certified, I am going to get my commercial helicopter add-on.
The next run on Helicycles is Sept 04, so I am seriously considering paying the deposit and locking in a slot. That was my first dream a long time ago.
At that point, I will seriously go about the business of selling my gyro.

GyroRon

12-18-2003, 07:09 AM

Matt I too would love to have my own helicopter. My only problem is money ;)

You see I would rather have two or three different - cheaper aircraft - for a given amount of money than just one expensive one. Take the Helicycle for example at 31 grand. We know 31 grand get's you the kit but it will take even more money to get it flying. It always does so up the total to 35 grand flying. For 35 grand you could have a one seat helicopter or in my case, A 4 seat classic recently restored 110 mph airplane.... A fun single place gyroplane...... and due to the fact that I built my own hangar and built it quite large, I have a roommate with a fixed wing ultralight who allows me to fly it anytime for allowing him to have a place to keep it. So I have the best of all worlds for being on such a budget. Had I not gone for a recently restored pacer, I could have quite a bit less money invested in a decent condition, but not restored pacer, and if so I would have some extra money to go look into buying a trike and a backpack powered parachute, two more cheap ways in to get in the sky that I find very fun.

Remember the man who dies with the most toys wins!

I like all forms of flight, I personally couldn't be satisfied with just one type of aircraft. I think gyros are a lot of fun, but they do have their problems. They aren't as good for cross country as fixed wings. They do burn more gas for the all up weight. They do make alot of noise and yes Financing and insurance is near impossible to get. But for the guy who can be satisfied with a simple in expensive gyro that doesn't require a loan to buy and these aren't real set backs.

I wouldn't let what other pilots say about gyroplanes influence my decision to fly a gyro. Most nearly all of the party poopers about gyroplanes you will meet know little to nothing about gyros. They are just bad mouthing gyros because they don't understand them and maybe know of someone who back in the 60's got killed in a Bensen they tried to teach themselves to fly. I personally have experienced plenty of flack myself, but in the end when they watch me safely buzz around under a set of spinning blades instead of a lazy fixed wing above my head, They are just upset that it isn't them up there having fun. I say F them if they give you a hard time. I sure wouldn't get out of a hobby I enjoy to buy some other type of aircraft just to have these assholes for friends. The best way to change things for you to the better is to fly with common since, and try to educate any and everyone willing to sit there and listen to you on how a gyro flys and why it IS safe, and to get someone in there with a two place to give everyone there a ride. A ride will change a lot of their bad attitudes.

PW_Plack

12-18-2003, 06:42 PM

I feel fortunate. I'm getting set to buy a single-place in the spring, and my credit union said they'll make me the same loan they make on motorhomes. (Currently about 8% APR.) All I need, said the rep, is to submit product information, price quote, and a picture. When I told her it was a kit, she said I can just submit a picture of another one that's been built as an example!

I'll never bank at an actual bank again, if I can help it...

GyroRon

12-19-2003, 07:12 AM

What most people overlook for financing options is those little plastic things in their wallet.

I have used my Visa, Master Card, Discover, And American Express Optima Cards to buy just about everything I have bought short of the House and my Trucks.

In many cases you can get a much better interest rate with the credit cards than a standard loan.

It is a non secured loan so if there is a transfer of ownership, you do not have to wait for the bank to clear the tittle to you.

You can pay it off early or send in minimum payments and drag it out over 5 or 6 years instead of a fixed payment each month.

If you see something you want.... You just go buy it. your already approved.

There are lot's of avantages to using the credit card to buy stuff as you can see. Now if your cards are high interest then it may not be such a good option But Most cards today are under 10 percent on purchases and under 20 percent on cash advances.

Most of my cards offer promotion rates where I can transfer a balance to the card and get a fixed rate of 2 - 5 percent interest till the balance is paid off. This works great. And to avoid cash advance fees and higher rates, In nearly all cases if you call the credit card and ask them, you can use the balance transfer checks they send you as personal checks and get the same rate as a transfer or purchase.

So what I do is if I know the seller will take a check, I just write a balance transfer check out to him. If he wants cash I make the check out to me, and deposit it to my account and the next day - if I deposited before 2 pm, and didn't draw attention to my deposit.... because if you do your bank may put a hold on the deposit till the check clears which takes nearly a week - So the next day I go to the bank and the money is now in my account and I just withdraw cash or a cashiers check.

The only things you must be careful about it to make sure it is alright to make the transfer checks out to you or another individual, Some cards will only let the cards be used to a business or another bank. Also make sure to make your minimum payments each month or your special rate can go away and you will get hit with the highest rate the bank can charge.

If your crafty you can keep transfering the balance between your cards and never pay more than prime rate. Last year I bought a motorhome and used my Chase mastercard and got ZERO percent interest for the first year. After the year was up I transfered the balance to another card with something like 3 percent till paid off.

KevinKing

12-19-2003, 08:14 AM

I was always taught that unless it's something that will make you money or you absolutely need, do not make payments. If you can't afford to buy your toys outright, then you can't afford them. No wonder you had to sell your Dominator. :)

GyroRon

12-19-2003, 08:55 AM

And Kevin that is a good way to look at it. And while I and others with loans of some type are out flying you can sit there and watch us while your saving up your money so you don't pay a little interest! Screw that life is too short to wait that long!

and Kevin just to shed a little more light then I wanted to... I didn't sell my Dominator because I couldn't make the payments. I didn't even have a payment on my Dominator... It was paid for. I did have a balance on one card for my hangar I built earlier this year and another balance for the Piper Pa-20 airplane I just bought. I didn't have to sell anything, but wanted to sell the Dominator to free up some cash - since it was paid off - to pay down one of those credit cards and to help pay for my flight lessons to get my private pilot rating in my airplane. I plan to buy a cheaper gyro with the left over cash so I still have a paid off gyro. I don't mind owning and flying a cheaper gyro because I now have a nice airplane too, instead of a nice gyro only. It is all goals and limits I have set for myself Not how much money I have in the bank. I got plenty! trust me ;D and It just made more sence to sell the Dominator and buy a less expensive gyro............................ Besides those that know me, know I grow tired quickly of my toys and like to buy and sell. I had had my fill of the Red Dominator. It was time to move on to the next one. So there Kevin, now you know a little more about why I sold my gyro.

Mr. Kevin.... Do you have a gyro? If not.... How may Bensen Days and ROC's and Mentones will you be sitting there on the ground watching us fly while you save your money up? At the interest rates being charged today, for what the average single place gyro costs used - about 7-10 grand, the interest being charged monthly for the loan is less than you might think, In most cases you will spend more just to fill up the gas tank one time. A small price to pay to have you cake and eat it too.

PW_Plack

12-19-2003, 09:27 AM

Ron,

I agree perfectly with your logic, and frankly, the Federal Reserve can only prop up the economy with lower interest rates if there are people willing to borrow and use the money. But, one caveat: If times were to get suddenly really bad, you might not be able to find buyers for the toys who'd pay enough to cover the debt.

You know, Ron, you should get a job as a commissioned aircraft salesman. The buy/swap/sell part is your favorit part of flying...you'd kick butt as a salesman!

KevinKing

12-20-2003, 07:50 AM

Ron, no I don't have a gyro, and I'm currently not in the position to buy one or make payments on one. That's ok though, there are lots of things that I would like to have, but I know I can't have them, at least not for a while. I'm not worried though. I'm still young, and I will get there eventually.

When I said "No wonder you had to sell your Dominator", that was not meant to be taken seriously. I'm just teasing you. Other people here seem to enjoy it, so I figured I'd get in on it. :)

ToddP

12-20-2003, 08:37 AM

I don't want to convince everyone that they should run out and take on a bunch of debt, but consider this:

Go to your credit union and get a loan for $10,000 to buy a gyro, finance it for 4 years at todays rate of 5.9%.

Over the next four years you'll make payments totalling $11,250.72. So the cost of this credit has been $1,250.72 or if you break it down $312.68 per year. Personally I will take on the extra expense of a little over $300 a year to get in the air now. Another thing that you might want to consider. The same gyro you can buy today for $10,000.00 could very likely cost you at least $11,250.72 four years from now...or perhaps even more. If thats the case, it will actually cost you more money to wait. Now granted you will make some interest on your money as you save it up but most places are paying somewhere around 1- 1.5% on savings.

NOW getting into something you simply cannot afford is a whole different discussion. I would never recommend that.

GyroRon

12-21-2003, 05:43 AM

What a lot of people don't understand is if you do not use credit cards, and take out a loan to buy a new car and so on....because you pay cash for everything, You will end up with a Crappy credit rating - where as the guy who takes out loans and makes his payments etc... will have a real high rating.

One day we will all need to get a loan for one thing or another, At least have a good track history for the bank to base your getting a loan at all, and to decide your rate they will charge.

MattPearson

01-13-2004, 05:17 AM

Here is an email with some pics I received from Carlos at Aerocopter.
"
"Hello Mr. Pearson,

Sorry for the delay in answering.

I checked one of the forums you kindly enclosed. I was happy to read some nice words about our machine and why not, also accepting the not so good ones! I did laugh at some comments.

Well I can understand most of it as so little information is available on our machine. I must confess that we are so busy that even our website is kind of "old" with not much time available to upgrade it. A lot of things have happened since it was issued. The FUTURA has changed in some aspects (for better, of course!).

Right now we are just about to release a new model, equipped with a 914 Rurbo ROTAX engine, so we will be getting some less weight there. That's always interesting. Performance is great. The machine has also been affected by a new exterior design (more streamlined) where we have eliminated the top air intake and changed the side air intakes for a more effective NACA scoops. We have incorporated a big F-16 style air intake under the machine which looks impressive. Also we have enclosed the forward undercarriage leg and added a mast fairing. I will be able to send you some pictures in short, it's still a small secret!

I would like to enfasize in the fact that we have gone thru a lot of testing in the whole project. It's not just a private venture made out in the back of our garage. For example the front leg will not break (as mentioned in the forum) that easily! Nothing in it's design is casual. We have tested every single thing and calculated each single part of that machine, that's why it took us so long. We've done all that in the most and absolute darkness so we weren't disturbed and we didn't want to be tempted in giving false expectations to potential customers. In this time we've had all kind of problems which have been slowly solved and we have spent all our money and some that we didn't have but our goal was clear. Our wives, friends, banks, etc. had lost their faith in us but luckily we got there just in time.

Enclosed I am sending you some pics (not so good quality). I hope you enjoy them. Regarding a video, maybe I can send you a CD if you inform me of your address."

MattPearson

01-13-2004, 05:18 AM

pics

MattPearson

01-13-2004, 05:27 AM

The rest of the pics he sent have aready been seen. I hope these are not repeats.

jos

01-14-2004, 03:31 PM

The BMW engine was impossible to keep cool in the Futura machine.
After a couple of hours it was removed from the machine.
The german BMW site still shows this engine on the Futura. As far as I am concerned this is very misleading and absolutaly not professional.
I am aware of quite a few gyro projects and fixed wing projects with this engine.
The BMW seems to fly well in fixed wing but overal comments are low power output,from acceptable to law suits.
On trikes it performs pretty well
I know several gyro projects on two seaters flying solo, but not one dual.
Can anyone prove me this engine can keep up two people in a well equipped gyro with (semi enclosed)cabin and some instruments and dual controls?
As far as my experience goes the 35 percent aircooling is ok at motorbike speeds around 60m/s
In a pusher gyroplane there are not such numbers specially not at airspeeds like 40 km/h at full power.

JOS