The First Cut Is The Deepest.

[dragonflyerthom]

Well I have studied Aussie Paul and Larry B's mod to their RAFs and I have decided to do my own type of mod to my RAF. The outcome will be basicly the same. I will do it in two cuts. The first is 7" behind the Mast with a tapered cluster plate. I will rivet and bolt this to the keel. I have decided to use some of the ideas that AAI did in their cut keel and I will use 2x2 tubing to reinforce and fill in the gap for a clean finish. The second will be 8" in front of the vertical stab and rudder. I will use the same method to finish it. I will post pictures of this mod as I go. Thanks to PB and Larry Boyer for the support that you have given to me and all the rest of you guys.

I do have a question about the rudder placement. It will be 4" closer to the prop with this cut. Will this affect the yaw of the gyro? Should I add a piece of 2x4 to get the rudder back in the same place?

[Aussie_Paul]

Well I have studied Aussie Paul and Larry B's mod to their RAFs and I have decided to do my own type of mod to my RAF. The outcome will be basicly the same. I will do it in two cuts. The first is 7" behind the Mast with a tapered cluster plate. I will rivet and bolt this to the keel. I have decided to use some of the ideas that AAI did in their cut keel and I will use 2x2 tubing to reinforce and fill in the gap for a clean finish. The second will be 8" in front of the vertical stab and rudder. I will use the same method to finish it. I will post pictures of this mod as I go. Thanks to PB and Larry Boyer for the support that you have given to me and all the rest of you guys.

I do have a question about the rudder placement. It will be 4" closer to the prop with this cut. Will this affect the yaw of the gyro? Should I add a piece of 2x4 to get the rudder back in the same place?

Thom, you should aim to have the fin and rudder further back. Please do not finish up with the fin and rudder closor to the prop than original. We have lengthened the keel on a couple 8" and that certainly helps with moment arm.

I prefer one cut behind the mast and angle the rear keel back up to have the tail wheel in its original position. This also gives the stab some negative AoA.

Do the mod for stability not aesthetics Thom :):)

You can lengthen the rudder cables with light chain, or short extension cables.

Aussie Paul. :)

[StanFoster]

Thom: Looking forward to seeing your redo.....good luck.:)



Stan

[Harry_S.]

Did you finnish up your trainin' Thom, or are you gonna do your mod and then back to training?!

Anyhow, think twice, measure twice, think again, measure again, stop and retire for the night. Next day think again, measure again and then cut We're with you.

I agree with Paul, you have the keel cut, why not extend the rudder back a few inches?! Be aware to maintain rotor clearance. This is where I like Boyers' mod.

Keep us posted with pictures. Do you have sketches of your mod?!


Cheers :)

[dragonflyerthom]

Did you finnish up your trainin' Thom, or are you gonna do your mod and then back to training?!

Anyhow, think twice, measure twice, think again, measure again, stop and retire for the night. Next day think again, measure again and then cut We're with you.

I agree with Paul, you have the keel cut, why not extend the rudder back a few inches?! Be aware to maintain rotor clearance. This is where I like Boyers' mod.

Keep us posted with pictures. Do you have sketches of your mod?!


Cheers :)

Hi Harry

I have measured, many times. I have thought about it, many times. I have the cluster plates done perfect now. If you hear a thunk followed by a scream please send condolences cause I have just f...up. Otherwise I will have some pics to post of the whole operation. Wish me luck. The whole thing will have begun in the AM today. I will have 16 bolts with nylock nuts and many 3/16 SS rivets. I will need to have my brother pick me up some aluminum chromate and then black enamel paint I will have it documented before I paint tho. Probably won't get much sleep tonight but hey this really is necessary for me and my peace of mind. If all goes well then any RAF can be brought to close to CLT for under 250 dollars. This doesn't include the cost of the horizontal stabilizer. I will keep you posted.

Harry are you going to Mentone? I look forward to shaking your hand if you are. As a matter of fact anyone going to the PRA bash will see me there. This is my first time and I can hardly wait.

[StanFoster]

THOM: Darn it.....I saw you posting in this thread and I went and put a bag of popcorn in the microwave. Thought I would have some good pictures to look at.

Hey...seriously....good luck on your tail mod. I thought I heard a distinct clunk when I was just getting up. It came from the southwest...was that you cutting the tail off? :lol:


Cant wait to be sitting and chatting with you at Mentone. By the way,..I also mean sitting and chatting in my SparrowHawk as I take you for some Indiana countryside flights.:angel:

When you and Larry and I sit down to chat...I better bring some popcorn...its going to get interesting...:lol:

Stan

[LARRYEBOYER]

Stan. I think pop corn is the best arround a campfire freshly popped with good friends and a couple cold ones in hand or near by in a iced down cooler. You bring the pop corn, I'll line up the chilly drinks.I am thinking of going in early. Depends on when Park H. can get away from work. My bro -in -law is thinking hard about coming out also. We should have a great gang to swap stories.

Let's have a capitolist pig camp fire one night. We'll see who has more money than anyone in the gyro community. My guess is Tom(The dragonfly)He said he has more money that Trump.(Not Donald,Bill. He has a small bar down in Apalosa. Apraised value. 2 cents)or you Stan.Seller to the world. When Stan speaks, someone listens!The Merril Lynch of Indianna.Lots of hidden Assets . If found, the IRS has first divies.
Many other candidates abound! Neo Nazi capitolist pigs and gyros rule!

[dragonflyerthom]

I spent most of the day taking everything off. The extension for my H/S, The Rudder, pulling the wiring and rudder cables. When I finally was ready to cut it my battery for my sawzall crapped out. 2 hours later the deed was done.

That has to be one of the hardest thing I have done. The wife knew that I was losing sleep over it and she was very supportive, she even brought breakfast to me at 10:30. At 1:30 she brought a half gallon of Iced Tea. Wow these women really know how to treat a guy when he is stressed out.

The deed is done. Dropping the engine is my next step. That will be done this week. I will also start the riveting and bolting.

[StanFoster]

Thom: I know how you wife can be stressed out. You cut off 7 inches didnt you say? Whats that leave her?:rolleyes:


Stan

[Harry_S.]

Golly Thom,

Could you post those photos as thumbnails, please. I'm crawlin' in the screen and still can't make 'em out. :D

You'll have fun doin' your bit. ;)


Cheers :)

[StanFoster]

Thom: Did your RAF sit down on its nosewheel when the tail hit the pavement?:p



Stan

[dragonflyerthom]

Stan I have 160 lbs of sand in the cabin and the motor supported from the rafters.:help: The only thing that sat down was my butt.

[dragonflyerthom]

Got a little more done today. Harry hope you can see this better. Bolts holes are done. Half of the SS rivets are drilled. Did a trial fit and will have to shave just a hair off.

[StanFoster]

Thom: Looking good. Keep feeding this picture hungry crowd some more.


Stan

[Harry_S.]

Not much better for my lookers, Thom.

Could you resize the new ones to 800x600, please.

I'm waitin' on an appointment for cataract surgery. Maybe...I hope that will better my lookers. ;)


Cheers :)

[Gyropilot007]

Thom:

I remember when I cut the keel on my RAF to make the mod. I knew once I did it there was no turning back. But now I can say I'm really glad I did do it. Here are a few

[Gyropilot007]

Thom:

I remember when I cut the keel on my RAF to make the mod. I knew once I did it there was no turning back. But now I can say I'm really glad I did do it. Here are a few pictures of my mods.

Bob

[RHGraham]

Love the paint job!!!

:0)

[Harry_S.]

That's no "paint job" Randal... that's air brush artistry at it's best.

I hope to see that "paint job" in person some day. :D


Cheers :)

[dragonflyerthom]

Bob

Did you have to move your axle back? If so then how much? Love the artistry and in my favorite colors also LLOOLL

[Aussie_Paul]

I prefer to just angle the now rear keel up approx 3 degrees as it goes back to have the tail wheel in its original position. This has the same effect BUT give approx 3 degrees more negative AoA to the h/stab. Not a concern if your h/stab is adjustable.

Looking good tho Thom.:)

Aussie Paul. :)

[StanFoster]

You ought to see Bobs gyro in person....and its been at my airport....:peace:


Stan

[dragonflyerthom]

It is a beauty. I hope he is at Mentone for all to see including me.

[Gyropilot007]

Guys:

Thanks for all the nice comments.

Thom:

What does LLOOLL mean? I'm clueless here.

I have some templates that I drew up when I did my mod. I'm attaching them to this e-mail. They may be of some use to you.

Regards,

Bob

[Gyropilot007]

Thom:

To answer your question, I did not move the axle back. My bird handles just fine with the axle in the original position.

Bob

[RHGraham]

Well, paint job, or airbrush artistry, either way, it kicks ass.
:0)

Hmm, I might be stuck here a little longer yet, maybe I should go to Mentone.

[dragonflyerthom]

Bob

LLOOLL(Laughtx2 outx2 loudx2) It was funny so twice the humor. Bob because I have such a long keel with my Bad Larry Martin Stab my front is light so I am thinking about 2-4 inches back depending on how it weighs out. I've been a trekie for years.

[davreich]

Bob, bob, bob....

Why couldn't you name it Kelvan Space Port structural mod one?

[dragonflyerthom]

Well

I spent the day at the air port today. Here is the update.

[dragonflyerthom]

There has been several times I wondered if this is a good idea. I sure hope all of the thinking and planning pays off in this mod. I know Larry B said that it can be done in two days. Maybe if I knew exactly what I am doing it would go faster. LOL No seriously the mod I am doing is the cheapest way to bring the thrust line down and under control. The aesthetics of the RAF is not destroyed or drastically changed. I just like the looks of the RAF. I still have the engine drop to do but I want to have the keel done first.

[StanFoster]

Thom: That looks very strong....nice job. You will be pleased I am sure.


Stan

[dragonflyerthom]

Thom: That looks very strong....nice job. You will be pleased I am sure.


Stan


Stan you too could have had this done. LMAO

[LARRYEBOYER]

STAN. YOU ARE GETTING THAT LOOK OF ENVY!!! You should have kept the RAF you had and did this conversion and saved all your moldy money you spent on the Sparrow Hawk to fight the law suit that next door neighbor is planning if you don't quit spying on his extra corricular activities!!!
You are right. Tom is doing a good job and an interesting approach to the keel mod. He says he will do the whole project for apx $250 excluding the cost of a stab.

[StanFoster]

Larry: I get all lathered up seeing all the projects that are going on and are about to go on. That engine upgrade you are planning has the hairs standing up on my neck! You will have the hottest gyro out their with the gearbox...and the right prop.





Stan

[Harry_S.]

Thom;

Thanks for re-sizing your photos...I can see what's goin' on now. :D And it's lookin' good.

How much are you lowering the engine, Thom?

I'm looking at your side view and the first thing I see is...you can eliminate that drastic bend radius of the PR cable by removing the 2 5/8" extension at the drive end and coupled with the lowering of the engine, you will gain a lot of rrpm when pre-rotating. Just a suggestion


Cheers :)

[dragonflyerthom]

Well I finally finished the engine drop yesterday. As you can see the engine is now six inches lower. The top supports were inverted and were exactly six inches down so I didn't have to move the top support at all. The engine was lowered exactly six inches give or take a sixteenth of an inch. I have had to redo some of my cables which I am working on now. I haven't had to move my axle yet but I have put the capability in it for a quick two inch move back with out much ado.

This whole process has been mostly time and work on my part. I believe I have less than 250 dollars in this whole mod. This doesn't include the H/S which I had already put on.

I have taken the extension off my keel and move the H/S to under the Rudder. This will immerse the stab more in the prop wash thereby giving the tail more authority at lower speeds.

The middle pic is where the engine was before the drop

[Harry_S.]

Those two pics...before and after the engine drop really show the extent of your improvement, Thom.

Lookin' good.


Cheers :)

[John Stahl]

$250.00………$250.00 modification to a RAF.
Had it been done by RAF they would likely still be in business.
I think in the history of gyros one of the mysteries will be why RAF wouldn’t make modifications to improve there product.

Your post makes it sound easy but I know there was a lot of hours committed to the mod.
Great photos. It is impressive how much better she looks with the engine dropped.
Keep us informed on how she flies.

[dragonflyerthom]

Harry S

Thanks your input and approval means a lot to me. Your support thru all my training and my build has helped me maintain my motivation. Your sharing your wealth of knowledge of the RAF and your willingness to share with a newbie like me has been priceless. Thanks bunches Harry.

John

Your words are so true. It has been a mystery to most of us. They were so steadfast in their resolve to not change anything. I am just a RC modeler but it is not a difficult job just time consuming. Measure many times and cut just once. I took about three weeks to plan everything out but it still took some time and I have looked at Paul B and Larry Bs mods before I settled on what I did. As the old saying goes there are a multitude of ways to get to the other side of the barn. I would like thank Larry and Paul for their pioneering of this simple modification. They have put way more time into this than I have. The nice thing about the way I have done it is you don't have to buy a lot of keel material so the cost stays low.

Thanks for your kind words also John. I can hardly wait to see the improvement in the thrust of my RAF.

Stan

You and Larry have been great gyro friends. I wish we lived closer to each other. Thanks.

[dragonflyerthom]

If my mod works out there will be a stoppage of all the carnage and PPO s in the aircraft that is one of the best looking gyros. I think it can be stopped inexpensively. Today we learned of another pilot and passenger dieing needlessly. Please look at this mod if you have a beautiful RAF. It will help heck almost anything that adjusts the thrust line will help. This mod is relatively simple and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to do.

[StanFoster]

Thom: Looking good. It will be nice to see your flying reports...


Good job....I like the looks of it...


Stan

[LARRYEBOYER]

Tom. Can't wait for you test results. Good job. Your efforts will be rewarded.

[dragonflyerthom]

Thanks Stan and Thanks Larry. You guy are an inspiration to this old coot. I hope to pass it on to others. The Mod is definitely an improvement. My wife says she can't tell any difference so the aesthetics have been left alone.

[Harry_S.]

Thanks Stan and Thanks Larry. You guy are an inspiration to this old coot. I hope to pass it on to others. The Mod is definitely an improvement. My wife says she can't tell any difference so the aesthetics have been left alone.



And I agree. :D


Cheers :)

[rgraffeo]

Looking good Thom ole' boy.
Can't wait to see her fly, hopefully it will be soon.

Keep us informed about the Magnolia event.

[dragonflyerthom]

Looking good Thom ole' boy.
Can't wait to see her fly, hopefully it will be soon.

Keep us informed about the Magnolia event.


Rudy

I have talked with Virgil and he said it is a go. We just need to tell him how many people will be there. Thanks for the nice words. I will have it at Magnolia to show everyone. I look forward to seeing you guys again.:first:

[StanFoster]

Thom: I hope you get lost and end up in Paxton with that beauty....:welcome:


Stan

[Iron]

Thom can you post a picture of the tail wheel attachment? Thanks

[dragonflyerthom]

Hi Roy

I will have to take a pix and post it. I am currently fitting the tail wheel back to where it was originally installed. I will post it as the attachment and then the installation.

[dragonflyerthom]

It is taking me much longer to put my gyro back together because I have put the H/S under the Rudder. This has cause me to reposition the light and position light as well as to rewire it. I am also going back and refastening everything. I hope to complete the rebuild this weekend before Mentone. Thanks for your patience. I will take some more pics this weekend. I also want to do the dual hang tests.:noidea:

[Razzum]

HiThom. Did you get my Email? Just a yes or no will be fine. Cheers Muzzar.

[dragonflyerthom]

I really enjoyed it Muzzar.

[dragonflyerthom]

Well

I got back Sunday from Mentone.

Larry Boyer's Mod was very slick and he was doing most of his flying in the early AM or late PM. I just never got a chance to fly with him. Seems my big butt was a little too much during the day. Larry is very safety conscious even tho he flys a RAF. LOL Great guy and he will share his knowledge with all that will listen.

I did fly with Steve Osborn and his RAF was rock solid. We flew over 100 mph. He has a rocket for a ship. Clean and very pretty. He has the Larry Martin Ultimate stab which works well. Steve is a very good pilot. Thanks Steve for the memory. I will cherish it.

I met Stevorotor. Stevo got the chance to fly with the great Jim Logan. Jim is a great guy with a great RAF. Jim has the Stabilator from Duane Hunn. I really don't know how fast his ship will fly but it is a blur as it goes by.

This Convention has opened my eyes about the RAF. I know that there has been several(6) people that have died in the month of July . That translate to three of our beautiful RAFs that are no longer flying. I just hope that the rest of the RAFrs will take a long hard look at the drop keel, drop engine fix in the near future. I have heard alot of the rhetoric about how the RAF is CLT at 80 mph. Well I for one have a hard time believing it. Speeding just doesn't change physics. Each and every RAFr that I met were and are great people.

Gyro pilots are a different type of people. I was very secure and observed most everyone at the flyin left their valuables ie cameras, radios, and personals, on the ground. Heck I left my camera in my chair holder and Don Shoebridge brought it to the banquet to me. Thanks Don.

I have never been prouder to be a member of any group than that of Gyro Pilot.:hail:

[dragonflyerthom]

One of the things that simply amazed most of the ground spectators was on Wednesday or Thursday Ron A did an ascent to I don't 5000 ft. While he was up there he had everyone on the ground wondering what he was up to. All eyes were on him. It really was neat seeing him being pulled up into the base of the clouds. When I asked him he confirmed what I had suspected he was doing. Great show Gyroron the whole week was entertaining and educational.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Tom. It was my sincere desire to have you as co-pilot or pilot. Most mornings I was tied up and I did't fly much in the afternoon as it was so hot. I took Paul Patterson up as he is a little lighter. He voiced his opinion of the Warrior as soon as we took off. he said" I got to get me one of these". he said he loved how well it flew and handled the wind and thermals. (what wind and thermals?)I know you will love your conversion.

[Passin' Thru]

One of the things that simply amazed most of the ground spectators was on Wednesday or Thursday Ron A did an ascent to I don't 5000 ft. While he was up there he had everyone on the ground wondering what he was up to. All eyes were on him. It really was neat seeing him being pulled up into the base of the clouds. When I asked him he confirmed what I had suspected he was doing. Great show Gyroron the whole week was entertaining and educational.

Thermal hopping?:p

[dragonflyerthom]

Tom. It was my sincere desire to have you as co-pilot or pilot. Most mornings I was tied up and I did't fly much in the afternoon as it was so hot. I took Paul Patterson up as he is a little lighter. He voiced his opinion of the Warrior as soon as we took off. he said" I got to get me one of these". he said he loved how well it flew and handled the wind and thermals. (what wind and thermals?)I know you will love your conversion.

I know Larry it was my deodorant. LMAO

No seriously, I would have loved seeing how yours flew before I tried mine out but hey I have my own drop keel, drop engine. Thanks for all the info you have given me. You probably don't realize it but I looked you ship over really good. Even the way you hooked your fuel system. You have been a really good friend and you have shown many how easy this system FIX can effect the thrust and balance. If the RAFr don't believe maybe when I make my report it will add to yours. Aussie Paul has helped many in OZ and Kiwiville. This is amovement that is PRORAF. Thanks for sharing with me.:hippie:

[enewbold]

Thread revival time! I've been in communication with Thom for clarififcation about a few things, and am now ready to get the materials together to perform this surgery on my RAF. So, should I start a new thread or just continue this one? I ask, because you know I'm going to have a million follow-on questions as I go!

Cheers, =Ed=

[John Stahl]

Thom
It has been a wile are there any updates?

[gyromike]

Thread revival time! I've been in communication with Thom for clarififcation about a few things, and am now ready to get the materials together to perform this surgery on my RAF. So, should I start a new thread or just continue this one? I ask, because you know I'm going to have a million follow-on questions as I go!

Cheers, =Ed=

Start a new thread Ed.
Some folks may have stopped following this one, and won't know about your project.

[dragonflyerthom]

Ed

I agree with Mike G that any mod you do should be posted so that people that may have missed my mod may look at yours.

[Harry_S.]

Ed, I agree with Mike. A new thread describing your mod would add a bit more interest and for comparison, as well. Just MO.


Cheers :)

PS. Along with plenty of pics, if you will. ;)

[Timchick]

Ed,
Are you doing yours like Larry's or Thom's?

[dragonflyerthom]

As most of you have seen I have a Larry Martin Stab. I have now moved it up to under the Rudder and closer to the prop wash. The main difference that I have noticed in Pearls handling. If you push the cyclic forward and let go she comes right back. If the cyclic is pulled back and let go the cyclic goes forward and returns. I am attributing this to the Horizontal Stab in the prop wash and the lower engine which has reduced my thrust line offset. Not bad for an old shade tree mechanic.

[GyroRon]

Thom, surprised you haven't repainted it camo yet? You strike me as a camo kinda guy....

[dragonflyerthom]

Thom, surprised you haven't repainted it camo yet? You strike me as a camo kinda guy....


That is weird Ron. Camo was my second choice of colors. I was talking to Magilla yesterday about this very same color choice.

[animal]

Thom how about some updated pics of your bird so far.

[dragonflyerthom]

Hi all

I have a question to all the AAI mod RAF. I have found my mod to be very easy to fly with no quirks.

One thing I would like to know is: Is there a limit to the amount of wind with gusts on the AAI mod. I have been in 15 mph with 10 mph gusts. In other word 15 mp gusting to 25. At my present level of proficiency this is the most I can handle. What is the experience of others with the AAI mod. I know that if I travel to Oklahoma the wind there is 25 mph steady most of the time. It gust to a higher number sometimes . Same problem in North Texas.

Thanks in advance.

Others with wind experience please share your info also. It would be nice to compare.

[StanFoster]

Thom: I have found my experiences with the RAF with my Parham stab and the SparrowHawk to both be able to handle awful winds. The SparrowHawk is more stable in the pitch mode...the RAF would feel more stable in the yaw mode as far as the wig wag sensation.

I loved flying in high winds with both.


Stan

[Harry_S.]

Thom, I don't have the AAI mod or any other mod on my machine, other than an added HS.

I think whatever wind tolerance you're comfortable with is the best route to go. As you build on your experience I believe that wind tolerance will increase...if not, nothing lost. After all, I think most of us are into this sport for fun and recreation, not to be a hotdog or a daredevil?!

The "windier" the better is what I used to say. Not anymore. The older I get, it's the less wind the better...but I still like a bit of wind, just not over 25 or so. If it's too windy for me today...I'll fly tomorrow. :D

I think you're doin' just fine. Keep it up and...Don't Push It.


Cheers :)

[dragonflyerthom]

Thanks Harry.

I am really trying to take it slow. Your opinion is priceless to me.

[Larry Boyer]

It all depends on the terrain. I fly in mountainess areas where the windy conditions get real messed up with up drafts and downdrafts.In open valleys the wind can blow and you hardly feel it.I love to fly in wind when it is right down the runway. It is great for quick takeoffs and steep slow landings.I have flown with my bro-in law where it was gusty and the RAF was a two fisted handfull. Other times windy as a bugger, and a tree finger delight. The winter gives you the best flights with wind.Little thermal activity, and prevailing wind out of the west.

[dragonflyerthom]

Thanks Larry. I was going to ask about the thermals this time of year but you beat me to it. You are the man. It was 25 gusting to 35 today so I just watched it. It seems to have settled down now but I am home for the evening.

We don't have a lot of valleys around here but there are some further up north of here. Sounds like some fun flying.

[dragonflyerthom]

Doug R conducted several test of the H/S while he was at Bensen Days this year
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11671&highlight=Prop+wash

I know that this is what is to happen when the prop wash is part of the stability of a gyro. This isn't what is happening on my gyro. Does anyone have a couple of extra Pitot tubes and ASI they aren't using. I would like to do a little research on my mod.

[Doug Riley]

Thom, I just swiped the ASI from the rear seat of my Dominator (temporarily, of course). The "pitot" was a scrap piece of 1/4" al. tubing and the vinyl hose was hardware-store stuff.

Chuck Beaty supplied the stick. It was all put together with cable ties.

[dragonflyerthom]

Doug

I am assuming the best place to put a pitot tube if I only have one which I do plan on purchasing one for my next project is just in front of the H/S.
Do you have a better placement?

[Doug Riley]

Yes, if fixed in place, it should stick out ahead of the leading edge of the HS.

Ours, of course, was mounted on a handheld stick and so could be moved about at will.

[rfi]

Thom,
We did the test you are talking about with an airspeed indicator and Pitot tube. On a stock, straight keel RAF there was no airspeed at all at the bottom of the keel tube. About a foot up from the keel bottom the airspeed was around 80 mph. We couldn't hold the pitot tube in place any further up because of the strength of the prop blast.

[dragonflyerthom]

Thanks for the info Don. As you have learned from this thread I have dropped the engine, cut the keel and raised the back of the keel 6 inches. I think there should be some prop blast. I will know when I buy the new ASI and pitot tube.

You are right about there not being any air on the stock RAF at the bottom of the keel. I placed ribbons on my H/S and the top had air but the ribbon just hung down on the underside of it. But this was before I did my mod.

Thanks for your input.

[RossB]

Thom
I have had a look at your images of the mod, and I have a bit of a concern
about the strength of the small extension bracket you have used at the base of the rear engine mount/radiator bracket stays. You have extended the length of the stays using a bracket, but under a hard vertical impact this bracket will easily bend forward or backward, as it is not supported in this direction.
I may have got this all wrong due to the quality of the image, but what do you guys think? Look at the bracket at the base of the radiator stays.

I hope I'm wrong
Ross B

[dragonflyerthom]

Hi Ross

That pic is before I dropped the engine 6 inches. When the engine dropped the bracket moved to the cut portion of the keel where it was supported. It was taken to show the keel and engine relationship. There are pics showing this new location on page three.

[Doug Riley]

We got the same results as Don did. Our experiments weren't limited to the RAF. We tested a Gyrobee and a Bensen, too.

At WOT, the RAF's propwash was over 100 mph up near the center of the tail.

The wash has tapered down by about a third of the prop's diameter by the time it reaches the vicinity of the typical pusher gyro's rudder. That's the bad news. The good news is that the "dead" area in the center of the prop tapers down, too. Because the Subaru with redrive has so much area right in front of the prop, the "dead" area still exists to some extent. The Mac, whose crankcase is narrow ahead of the prop, has faster flow in the center of the wash than the RAF/Soob.

[dragonflyerthom]

Thanks Doug


I do plan on doing the static tests but I also want to do some inflight testing also. This is why I asked about the position of the Pitot tube,( for both of these tests).

[Harry_S.]

Thom, there's PLENTY of prop air 4" above the keel as shown in my "first two test flights", after the initial install of my KJ Stab.

Some may not know this, but the KJ Stab is mounted so that the horizontal is a fraction over 4" above the top of the keel. It catches plenty of prop air, to aid in pitch stability. IMO, a most effective Stab.


Cheers :)

[Doug Riley]

Inflight testing would be useful.

I had originall planned to put the pitot on a stake stuck in the ground ahead of the HS. This would have kept everyone out of harm's way during the runup.

We found, however, that we had to play with the alignment of the pitot in both axes quite a bit to get the highest reading. Just pointing the pitot parallel to the gyro's fore-aft axis didn't cut it. The propwash swirls, which means that the pitot must be aligned so that it's parallel to the invisible "screw thread" formed by the swirling wash. We ended up hand-holding our pitot stick and angling it in the wash to get a solid reading.

So you may need some trial-and-error adjustments to get your pitot lined up with the wash for your flying test.

[dragonflyerthom]

Doug

Since my prop turns counter clockwise I was thinking of putting the pitot on the left side next to and infront of the H/S. I can make a bracket that will attach to the keel.

What do you think?

[Doug Riley]

Thom, that would be a good place to start. We tested mostly on the left side, but also tried the right side to see how much difference it made. Not much.

The angle of the propwash's "swirl" is not so severe that the rudder blocks much flow from reaching the right side. You can picture it looking more like a candy cane than, say, a fine-threaded bolt.

[dragonflyerthom]

I thought to bump this old thread for some of the new members so that they can see how a RAF can be made safer.

My Dragonflyer is really nice to fly. No bad habits

[TJMay]

Thom,

You going to Bensen Days?

I'd really like to see meet you and explore your mods.

Tommy

[lanichol]

My Dragonflyer is really nice to fly. No bad habits

Do have any recent pictures that shows the redrive and the engine dropped?

[dragonflyerthom]

Look at page three post 36. You can look at the door on my toyota. the second picture is before the drop and the bottom pic is after the drop. You can see that the thrust line goes from the door handle to the middle of the door.

TJ I would love to go but that is the end of tax season. I would like to meet you also.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Hey Tommy!!!! Call those last minute tax dogers and tell them you have a vacation planned to go meet a few great people in Wachula, Fla. I plan to be there and I have a tax business. Can't get your return in by the ist week in April, file an extension.You need a break anyho. Call me some time. I miss you.

[asmuzsr]

Larry
I'll be looking for you there.

[Timchick]

Larry, Will you have a drop-keel gyro at Bensen days?

[LARRYEBOYER]

Tony, it would be great to see you again and hang out. looks like a possibility of stevie O and my bro in law terry going. I am in need of a vacation, so if you see a sigh of relief on my face, it's not the good fortune of seeing you again, but the heat of the day after a long hard cold winter in Pa.( this global warming is something else.

Tim! I hope to fly the EuroStar down to wachula. I'll take you for a spin arround the patch!

[dragonflyerthom]

Hey Larry

I would love to go but I have soooo many that wait to the last minute or I would go also. How have you been doing? I will be talking to you soon.

[asmuzsr]

Larry
Don't know what day I'll be there yet. Just look for a Fedora and red PF Flyer sneakers like the Dr wears.

[CLS447]

Tim, Larry is going to fly his Eurostar to Wauchula, He will give you a spin around the patch !

That should be quite a flight Larry ! Is your Bro-in-law going with you?

[asmuzsr]

Tony, it would be great to see you again and hang out. looks like a possibility of stevie O and my bro in law terry going. I am in need of a vacation, so if you see a sigh of relief on my face, it's not the good fortune of seeing you again, but the heat of the day after a long hard cold winter in Pa.( this global warming is something else.

Tim! I hope to fly the EuroStar down to wachula. I'll take you for a spin arround the patch!
Larry
I lost your # if you have mine call me. Need to talk about a stab.

[asmuzsr]

Larry
Found your # and left a message. Call when you can.

[Timchick]

Tim, Larry is going to fly his Eurostar to Wauchula, He will give you a spin around the patch !

That should be quite a flight Larry ! Is your Bro-in-law going with you?

I'm game. I'm looking forward to that ride.

[CLS447]

Tim, don't hold your breath !