RAF No Hands Flying

[Steve Osborne]

I mounted a Video Camera on the right seat and shot some footage of flying the RAF 2000 with no hands. If you look out the door at the ground you will notice some wind disturbance and you can see it will correct itself without pilot input. Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PQoDR9zYB8

[C. Beaty]

Wow! Hands off flight? Incredible! Unbelievable! Beyond comprehension!

The Bensen rotorhead does a pretty good job of masking instability.

[Steve Osborne]

What's to mask? I know you are having a hard time believing your eyes. I have about 5 minutes of this video, not just a 1 second photo. I think it's pretty good considering how unstable you claim the RAF is. Truth hurts, huh Chuck. :)

[C. Beaty]

I don’t have a bit of trouble believing my eyes, Steve. A riding lawnmower will fly “hands off” as long as an RAF-2000 if equipped with an offset gimbal rotorhead.

How long will your RAF fly with the stick locked, removing the gimbal head from the loop; the only meaningful measure of stability?

[DennisFetters]

What's to mask? I know you are having a hard time believing your eyes. I have about 5 minutes of this video, not just a 1 second photo. I think it's pretty good considering how unstable you claim the RAF is. Truth hurts, huh Chuck. :)

Steve, to these guys seeing is not believing. The facts will only confuse the issue, so they believe it's best for you to keep them to yourself. After all, they own this forum. You'll see, attacks soon to follow.

Do you have the horizontal stabilizer added to your RAF? I know my opinion differs from what RAH states, nor am I an RAF expert in any way, but with all experiments I did, I found that it was necessary to have a horizontal stabilizer on a gyro if you had any type of Pod. It also improved stability on open frame gyros as well. But, as I said, I can't speak for an RAF with any hands on authority.

[Steve Osborne]

No need to lock the stick Chuck, go back a watch it again. Watch the pre-rotator lever and the dash aluminum lower bracket closely. It is rock solid.

[Steve Osborne]

I know what you mean Dennis. Yes, I do have a Stab and it does make a difference.

[Timchick]

That looks like a good sized stab. Who makes that one?

[C. Beaty]

That photo was shot with a wide angle lens that distorts perspective, Tim. Shot from the other end, the stab would look tiny.

[dragonflyerthom]

Well I can say that Stab is just a stab. The Ultimate from Larry Martin. I would love to have one if I wasn't going to drop the keel on mine. It was designed for an unmodified RAF. I have the Bad Larry Martin Stab and I will be doing the dropkeel and engine lowering mod for some of my H/S in the prop wash. The COG should be just a few inches below the Prop thrust. Nice post Steve. I think you can pass the locked cyclic test.

[Steve Osborne]

Wrong again Chuck. I do not even own a wide angle lens

[Steve Osborne]

Some more. It has about 10 sf of surface area

[C. Beaty]

You probably shot that photo with a digital camera having 3x optical zoom, Steve. Zoomed in all the way, they’re equivalent to ~ a 35 mm lens in a 35 mm film camera.

The tip to tip span of the stab appears to be about 3x the wheel track. We both know better than that. That’s what I meant by distorted perspective.

[Harry_S.]

I can't get youtube Steve but I like your photos.

I'm gonna take some photos of my stab from the rear and head on, for some comparison. I don't fly my machine with doors, in fact, the doors are still in the box they came in, so I have no need for the winglets.

My stab, zero incidence at the keel, is about 4 in. into the prop blast so it , I believe, is a more effective stab than any other keel mounted stab...pitchwise, that is. I really want to get a wind measurement such as Doug ran at BD's.

A comment if you will, on the "locked stick" testing. Designers and or test evaluators may have a need for this, I don't. I don't ever foresee a need nor do I intend to waste time performing such testing on or with my machine. I fly with my hands on or around the controls at all times...or most all times anyway. ;) I continue that habit when I fly a fix wing and even when in my car.

If it ain't broke...why fix it?! ;)


Cheers :)

[Aussie_Paul]

The largest improvement I felt with my stability chasing endeavours was when I added a stab to my RAF and before that to my AC trainer.

The next scenario I conducted was the drop keel on the RAFs which was a further improvement.

The second largest improvemen t was Hybrid with very close to CLT depending on load, but usually 1" tp 2" HTL with a downloaded h/stab that was a little too small.

I found one day testing with 40 mph gusty winds that Hybrid was not quite up to the stick fixed task so I landed and put an almost double sized set of stabs on Hybrid she would handle the conditions stick fixed.

I have flown a stock RAF for quite some time hands free on a perfect morning and I thought "gee maybe I am being to paranoid with this stability thing." :(

Then we flew through the first bump of the day and away she went diverging in pitch oscilations. Stick fixed a RAF, even with a stab, will diverg more quickly after the first bump that with hands free.

You don't need a stable gyro to be able to fly a gyro, BUT a stable gyro makes the odds soooo much more in your favour.

I don't need stick fixed to enjoy flying any gyro, as most of you experienced guys don't, I just wanted to prove the theory and make my gyros as stable as possible for the newbies we are treying to encourage to our great flying discipline.

As I always say, I only look at a gyro through the eyes of a student about to go solo. Will this gyro help or hinder their chances of success???

Aussie Paul. :)

[C. Beaty]

A comment if you will, on the "locked stick" testing. Designers and or test evaluators may have a need for this, I don't. I don't ever foresee a need nor do I intend to waste time performing such testing on or with my machine. I fly with my hands on or around the controls at all times...or most all times anyway. ;) I continue that habit when I fly a fix wing and even when in my car.

If it ain't broke...why fix it?! ;)


Cheers :)
You’re quite right, Harry. There is never a compelling need for flying with the stick fixed.

The only necessary circumstance in when there is a need to determine stability without the masking effect of the Bensen rotorhead.

On the other hand, those gyros without feedback from rotor thrust are always fixed stick if the pilot lets go of the stick, returning to trim of its own accord. I have no idea whether either the A&S 18A or the MC J-2 can be flown “hands off.”

Both of Dick DeGraw’s gyros have a type of cyclic pitch control that does not incorporate rotor thrust feedback and have spring detent cartridges that produce a strong snap back to center action, -a mechanism akin to the swinging doors of a Hollywood western saloon- and are ordinarily flown “hands off.” The neutral position is trimable.

The last time Carol DeGraw flew from Ernie’s place to Wauchula for Bensen Days, some 35 miles, she said she didn’t touch the stick once on course; making minor heading corrections with rudder input.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Sounds like my RAF. Other than roll corection or rudder input for course change, no pitch corrections.

[C. Beaty]

I wasn’t aware you had a stick lock, Larry. There is a difference between stick free and stick fixed.

[barnstorm2]

I don't quite understand why anyone would be surprised.

The ship is equipped with an Hstab.

Doesn't the Hstab stabilize the RAF to give you some decent straight and level when trimmed?

I could not see any evidence of thermals or gusts outside of the aircraft but again, if the Hstab is doing it's job isn't' this what we would expect to happen?

Steve, you have a very nice dash. Thanks for posting!

.

[LGoodhind]

After over a decade it shouldn't surprise me when I see this stuff.

The only thing that does continue to surprise me is that the people involved aren't willing to suck up their ego long enough to stay seriously engaged in a mind numbingly simple game of yes and no questions that would end it. Considering that the obvious thing on the table are other peoples lives you would think they would take the time and risk the frustration of plumbing the depths of their own ignorance.

[dragonflyerthom]

After over a decade it shouldn't surprise me when I see this stuff.

The only thing that does continue to surprise me is that the people involved aren't willing to suck up their ego long enough to stay seriously engaged in a mind numbingly simple game of yes and no questions that would end it. Considering that the obvious thing on the table are other peoples lives you would think they would take the time and risk the frustration of plumbing the depths of their own ignorance.

Wow what a waste of bandwidth. I own one and I fly mine with all that is known in my mind. I almost stopped my build at one point because of this rubbish. You guys have really scared a lot of people from flying or finishing their build with a lot of this chicken little stuff. I personally don't take my hand off the cyclic and throttle. I am aware that the HTL is more sensitive than the other types. I am just surprised that so many take the training of a RAF pilot for granted. Most of the real crashes come from little or none. I have over 40 hours of dual training. It all started in a AAI mod RAF until I had mine finished. Since my initial training I have transitioned into to my RAF with a Larry Martin Bad Stab with a 29" extention. My stab has trim that is presently ground adjustable. I will soon put an electric switch and activator that will make it in flight adjustable. I will drop my keel and engine. So I think I understand the whole problem. I don't believe that anyone who has a RAF should get rid of it just fix the problem with a few mods.

No I really don't think people who have HTL machines are ignorant. Just those that think they have all the answers could be tho.

[LGoodhind]

As I remember Thom you bailed after four questions. I know I don't understand a whole host of stuff (I am more ignorant than you I am sure) but I would hope you would admit that there are a heck of a lot of examples of people abusing the term "stable" and trying to sell it to people who just walked in the door .. this thread with it's whole "see- no hands" as if that meant anything at all is the quintessential example.

[dragonflyerthom]

I don't bail. I am one who lives by the rule of "Ask me no questions and I will tell you no lies. Yes Im learning more each and everyday. I personally have never flown a classic RAF. I don't plan on it for a while. I can say that the offset rotor head works great for my machine. I really find that the H/S can make that much difference but maybe it can. I find that so far most of the warning of the RAF have been over exaggerated for me. My gyro flies very much like the proponents of CLT and LTL gyros say but is it as bad as they say. Presently I would say No. In down drafts the Rotor have gone as low as 300 RRPM and with up drafts they have remained the same within 10 RRPM. About the only time I have seen the motor push the nose down is in a go around from an aborted landing. When I cut the throttle for an approach the nose goes up for a second then the approach is normal as per the AAI RAF that I trained in.

As for someone just walking thru the door of Gyro flight I would say get training. Then make your own decision as to the risk you are willing to take. One of the problems with some of the posts is you can't make one miss step without someone dissecting each and every word of the post. The see no hands has been used as proof of stability since Dr Bensen used it in his advertisement. We really have our treasures here on the forum. They are a wealth of information and most gladly share it with new wantabe gyro pilots. Do we agree on everything, NO. If you like the whirl of rotary wings. The sound of them landing. Or just the joy of building something you can fly in and not by remote control. Then this sport is for you. This particular sport can and will cost you your life. I am meaning the passion that we all share for the sport, the love of flying, and our mistress gyrocraft.

I hope this clears it up for you as far as where I come from

[C. Beaty]

Thom, I’ll bet you wouldn’t own a pocket calculator that didn’t have a percent key.

[birdy]

If you look out the door at the ground you will notice some wind disturbance and you can see it will correct itself without pilot input.
With the greatest respect Steve, that is hardly wot anyone would call 'turbulance'.
If it WAS turbulant, the offset would have been reacting, and youd see that in the stick responding, be as hard as i looked, i never saw the stick move. IOW, thats wot id call smooth air. Both my machines will fly handsoff in air like that, even the ferel without a HS.

[dragonflyerthom]

Yea and I bet you have a slide rule in a drawer somewhere in your house.

[C. Beaty]

Now be nice, Thom, and sometime when I’m not busy, I’ll show you how to work compound interest problems on an ordinary pocket calculator.

And yes, I still have the old P&E slide rule issued under the GI bill. It’s a memento I wouldn’t think of tossing.

[Doug Riley]

PPO (a forward flip propelled by prop thrust) can be completely eliminated by design. There's no reason to tolerate a machine that is vulnerable to it -- whether or not you can generally compensate for the problem with special training. (You can ride a unicycle to work every day with special training, but even so, they haven't caught on.)

Taking risks with no corresponding rewards make no sense. It's the equivalent of playing a lottery in which the chance of winning is exactly zero. What rational person would buy a ticket if that were the case?

CLT gets rid of PPO with no down-side. If you don't/won't go to CLT, then the job of preventing PPO by design falls to the H-stab.

On paper, a big enough H-stab located in the propwash can prevent PPO despite any given amount of nose-down moment cuased by a high thrustline.

In practice, there are limits to what a H-stab can do, because of the small diameter of the wash and structural considerations. You bump up against sheer space problems when you try to cram 15 square feet of HS inside a propwash that's only 4-1/2 feet in diameter.

Without the wash, the HS can't make enough force at lower airspeeds to prevent PPO. A number of PPO accidents have occurred during relatively low-speed (but high throttle) climbouts. Initial climbout is one of the vulnerable moments for PPO.

Whether a given HS does the complete job can be calculated with reasonable certainty. It can also be tested in various ways without the risk of flight tests.

Hands-off flight is in no way a test for PPO-proofness. Many, many gyros that could fly hands off, starting with the Bensen and going forward to today's craft, have PPOed. Hands-off flight demonstrates that, within a certain range of disturbance and at a certain initial airspeed, there are forces in the control system that tend to return the craft to trimmed flight. Typically, beyond that certain level of disturbance, the gimbal head no longer provides a return to trimmed flight.

In fact, there are no gyros with gimbal heads that WON'T fly hands-off that I know of. We know, however, that some of these are PPO-prone, because they have, in fact, gone in.

A H-stab down on the tail tube misses the propwash, so it's likely not a PPO-proofer. It will almost certainly improve handling noticeably, though.

One sign of a H-stab that IS approaching the PPO-proof level of power is that it will make the machine fly very nose-high until the hang specs are re-adjusted. The hang spec needs to go back to the Bensen number of 10-11 degrees nose-down once you add a H-stab that counters all the PPO moment. By moving the hang point aft, you get rid of the tail-heavy condition that a no-stab HTL gyro uses to keep itself level.

[Harry_S.]

After over a decade it shouldn't surprise me when I see this stuff.

The only thing that does continue to surprise me is that the people involved aren't willing to suck up their ego long enough to stay seriously engaged in a mind numbingly simple game of yes and no questions that would end it. Considering that the obvious thing on the table are other peoples lives you would think they would take the time and risk the frustration of plumbing the depths of their own ignorance.



SAY WHAT???


Cheers :)

[LARRYEBOYER]

Steve. I saw your thumb twitch, which shows nervious behavior. You aircraft may appear to be stable but it is not. You have to super glue the stick to the dash and fly it blindfolded with a case of beer in your gut and blow a 3.0 or better.Then and only then we can be assured that the RAF is stable enough for a drunken sailor in a hurricane.Please perform that test and get back to us. Even then, if you choose this mission, your stability as a pilot will then be questioned as well as the RAF never quite meeting the nods of the discerning public. The Chucks ain't backing down and the RAF owners ain't leavin town.You can't lie when a slide rule is in the holster, partner.Put your video camera to better use. Fly along Virginia beach and video bikinis. More convincing and a lot more fun!

[Harry_S.]

What...no nudist colonies around there to video tape?!


Cheers :)

[C. Beaty]

Steve. I saw your thumb twitch, which shows nervious behavior. You aircraft may appear to be stable but it is not. You have to super glue the stick to the dash and fly it blindfolded with a case of beer in your gut and blow a 3.0 or better.Then and only then we can be assured that the RAF is stable enough for a drunken sailor in a hurricane.Please perform that test and get back to us. Even then, if you choose this mission, your stability as a pilot will then be questioned as well as the RAF never quite meeting the nods of the discerning public. The Chucks ain't backing down and the RAF owners ain't leavin town.You can't lie when a slide rule is in the holster, partner.Put your video camera to better use. Fly along Virginia beach and video bikinis. More convincing and a lot more fun!No one much cares if you RAFers practice misology amongst yourselves while wallowing in your own delusions.

It is an entirely different matter, however, when you come out of the closet and begin proselytizing the gullible.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Chuck!!! don't make me get out the Roget's Thesaurus!!!!

[C. Beaty]

A standard English language dictionary will do just fine, Larry. Why would you look in a synonym/antonym dictionary?

[Doug Riley]

Save work by looking up "misosophy" at the same time. I wasn't sure it was a real word, but sure enough...

[LARRYEBOYER]

With words like that, I was not sure where to start.
I have to get back to my Readers Digest word power section.Then I can be Supercalifragilistic expialidosious like Mr. Beaty.(and he is!!)

[Vance]

I thought that misosophy was common but my spell check rejected it.

I feel that there is a world of difference between reason and knowledge.

I don’t understand the reference.

Thank you, Vance

[dragonflyerthom]

I know that I don't hate knowledge.

[Timchick]

Thom,
Your trim on your stab is not going to need very much adjustment. Instead of an electric trim setup (if it malfunctioned and went full position one way or another-look out) how about something like a vernier control instead? It would give you enough range of adjustment without the danger of a malfunction.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/a800.php

[GyroRon]

Larry, Thom, Steve..........

Can I ask a few simple and fair questions?

1. Do you understand that when stability is discussed here, for the most part the part of "stability" that is focused on by folks such as Doug and Chuck and others is a given gyros ability or lack of, to " Bunt " over or PPO?

2. Do you understand that flying hands off does show that a gyro is not taking alot of work just to maintain flight, but that to show hands off stability you would want to disturb the gyro from trimmed flight and see if it returns to trimmed flight on it's own - hence the term, " Flys hands off "

Flying a Cessna 172, you could trim it for hands off flight and pull back sharply on the yoke and then let go and within a minute or so the Cessna will return to straight and level trimmed flight without input by the pilot. The Cessna would also return to trimmed flight on it's own if you pushed the yoke forward, twisted it to the left or right, or stepped on a rudder pedal and then took you foot off. It is considered stable.... it will return to trimmed flight all on it's own without pilot input

[C. Beaty]

Then I can be Supercalifragilistic expialidosious like Mr. Beaty.(and he is!!)
Sure you can, Larry. You can also be Mary Popins flying your magic parasol.

But to descend to reality for a moment, as Doug mentioned earlier, it is almost impossible for a gyro with offset gimbal rotorhead not to fly “hands off” with correct trim spring.

Dr. Stewart Houston, professor of aeronautical engineering at the University of Glasgow who conducted the only complete study of gyroplane flight characteristics, said, on a UK forum that “hands off flight” is nothing more than a parlor trick.

Here’s a synopsis of the gyroplane research at the U. of Glasgow:

http://www.aero.gla.ac.uk/Research/Fd/Project5.htm

You and Steve O. can deceive yourselves all you like with party tricks but you’re proving nothing except a Bensen style rotorhead works pretty well, no matter what it’s installed on.

[Steve Osborne]

Chuck B, Doug, Ron, all of you own Gyroplanes and more then likely own or know someone that has a video camera. How about mounting it on your Gyro and post some footage on how a stable one should fly.
CB. I would like to see yours flying 2 or so minutes with a locked stick, Thanks.

[C. Beaty]

Better still Steve, how about you posting a video of your gyro flying with stick locked as Paul Bruty has done. You might learn something about stability in the process.

[Steve Osborne]

Is that a NO from you CB?

[LARRYEBOYER]

So Steve locks his stick and the gyro flies hands off, it still will be a parlor trick and then what will the next request be?Fly in a head stand while in handcuffs and shackels? In most meterioligical conditions, the RAF is very controlable and requires very little workload.That is the cross we RAF pilots have to bare.What I see here is an argument from ignorance.

[kc0iv]

How about you Steve perform this test.

1. Trim your aircraft to fly "hands off".

2. Push the stick forward to a 10 deg angle.

3. Release the stick.

4. Tell us if the aircraft returns to it's "hands off" trim.


Leon

kc0iv

[C. Beaty]

There’s a lot of difference between “hands off” flight in a FW aircraft and “hands off” flight in a gyroplane fitted with an offset gimbal rotorhead.

The offset in the gimbal head feeds back a component of rotor thrust into the cyclic control system in a stable direction. An increase of rotor thrust from an upward gust or from any increase of “G” load causes a nosedown force in the stick, no matter how unstable the airframe. As a result, even the most unstable gyro will have at least a limited degree of “hands off” stability.

FWs and rotorcraft with swashplate cyclic control have no such feedback.

In a FW with control surfaces not aerodynamically balanced, there is no stable feed back; the control surfaces merely trail downwind. FWs with aerodynamically balanced surfaces such as all flying stabilators, generally have antiservo tabs to increase control force and to cause downwind trailing.

With rotorcraft controlled by swashplates, the stick is “dead,” and when released, will return to whatever the trim springs mandate.

A stable, properly trimmed FW is perfectly stable with the controls locked and when disturbed will always return to trim.

An unstable gyroplane or FW with locked controls will not. Following a disturbance, it may either diverge if simply statically unstable or enter a sequence of oscillations of ever increasing amplitude if dynamically unstable.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Paul. Good post on #15.

[Harry_S.]

I stirred a bit of air yesterday and ZOUNDS, I remembered to take my picture box. :D

Anyhow, here are some photos of my KJ stab. I took regular distance shots and then zoomed in to get these, so they may seem a little outta focus.

These are rear and front shots.


Cheers :)

[Harry_S.]

These two shots are quartering from the front. The first is the regular photo and the other is the zoomer.

The wheel pants were off because I had changed wheel bearings and had added spacers per the suggestion of Ray P.


Cheers :)

[C. Beaty]

“Ask the man that owns one”

[GyroRon]

Steve, I don't have the equipment to do this video stuff, but If you want to bring that stuff to mentone I would be glad to try it out. If you want you can go up with me in my gyro and lock the stick yourself and we will see what she does.

[Steve Osborne]

I see you have learned some new parlor tricks Chuck.

[Steve Osborne]

Ron, I will bring the camera. But no need to lock the stick, Video will do. Only a foolish Caveman would want someone to lock the stick, but Chuck will not put his $ where his mouth is. :D

[GyroRon]

Ron, I will bring the camera. But no need to lock the stick, Video will do. Only a foolish Caveman would want someone to lock the stick, but Chuck will not put his $ where his mouth is. :D

Steve I can't answer for Chuck, but I don't think he flys anymore. As long as I have known him - since 2001ish - I have never seen him fly nor heard of him taking a flight in since then. I know he had flown quite a bit years ago, but not sure if he still flys. So he might not be able to video tape himself in his machine doing that. I will let Chuck answer or add to this if he wants to.


You can lock my stick with your hands and I would not be afraid to fly that way Steve, you take a ride with me in the Dominator and you will see, the gyro IS stable it doesn't need to have the stick floated to fly nor does it need corrections to keep in the air.

[enewbold]

I see you have learned some new parlor tricks Chuck.
Hahaha.............................:peace: Now THAT post #53 is funny!

[LARRYEBOYER]

Here you see Chuck B and Chuck E discussing the RAF stability issues.:whoo:

[C. Beaty]

"ask The Man That Owns One"

[LARRYEBOYER]

My father was killed in a snowmobile accident.it was determined that a bad weld was at fault on the sterring mechanism. He mentioned to a friend earilier that day that the stering was loose, yet didn't take the time to lift the hood and see what was the cause of the looseness in the handlebars. It is safe to say both the manufacturer of the sled and my dad were at fault.In those above accidents you posted, whose fault was it? Virtually every brand has had accidential deaths. Raf, Sparrowhawk, Benson, Dominator,Magni, Air Command. Many machines were CLT, some HTL. Machine or pilot? Again, who or what is at fault?I guess the safest stance is the one you took, Mr. Beaty. Just don't fly at all but stand back and critisize people that fly machines you don't like.

[C. Beaty]

Sure, Larry, people are killed every day in all of sorts ways but such rationalization does not excuse a lethal design flaw in an aircraft or in any other apparatus that could result in a fatal outcome. Would you own a rifle that had a known propensity for blowing out its breech from time to time?

There is not one person with a technical background who does not understand the problem of high thrust line gyros.

The HTL defect of an RAF-2000 can be somewhat mitigated with a large horizontal stabilizer but not eliminated.

In at least two of the fatal accidents, the machines were equipped with horizontal stabilizers to no avail. They, as well as the other 11 that augured in no doubt could be flown “hands off.”

Even type-certificated aircraft occasionally slip through the process with flaws. The A&S 18A comes to mind; the slab sided fuselage makes recovery impossible if crossed up past the limit, sliding sideways into the ground.

BTW: Don’t pay too much attention to Ron Awad. I don’t live in a trailer and I still fly; but not every day like I used to and I generally avoid flying at flyins because of the congestion.

[ben]

geezzzzzzzzzzz guys

don't ya'll get tired of this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve Osborne]

Ron, I am sure Chuck would let you fly is Gyro. He states anyone can fly it with only a few minutes of ground school, but it might not be airworthy at this time since someone balled it up after a roll over. I guess the x-wind factor and rotor blade management were left out of the briefing.

[Timchick]

Steve,
Chuck's gyro was flying at Bensen Days. When did it rollover? Did I miss something?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBhkvZlPrWk

[GyroRon]

BTW: Don’t pay too much attention to Ron Awad. I don’t live in a trailer and I still fly; but not every day like I used to and I generally avoid flying at flyins because of the congestion.


Blame Ernie if I am misinformed....I have heard him say your a multi millionaire, yet you choose to live in a small trailer in the middle of a Orange Grove. Sorry if I was putting out bad info... As for the flying part, I was unsure that is why I left the comments that you might pipe in on the subject

[GyroRon]

Ron, I am sure Chuck would let you fly is Gyro. He states anyone can fly it with only a few minutes of ground school, but it might not be airworthy at this time since someone balled it up after a roll over. I guess the x-wind factor and rotor blade management were left out of the briefing.


I have flown his gyro before. It was stable, flew pretty easy. Any gyro can be rolled over.... I am sure if stats were to be collected RAF and Low Rider aircommands hold the highest number of rollovers out of all the gyro manufactors - simply because there was so many of them built.

[Steve Osborne]

Chuck would like everyone to believe one of the problems is in the offset gimble head, but I can not think of any Gyro kits made available to the public at this time that do not have this. I have not seen it in person, but I believe even the Xenon uses this design.

Adjustable Trim is now another, it is so the pilot can adjust neutral stick pressure at various speeds, in my case 50mph - 80mph as you can see in both of my videos it works well especially on x-country trips, but I will admit it is pretty dam boring just sitting there doing nothing. I enjoy being a pilot and that definition to me means hands on flying.

Once you find your pocket calculator Chuck, how about designing and produce to the public these none masking quality parts you feel everyone should have. It's not like you do not have the time or $. Like Ken Brock used to say, "Show Me, Don't Tell Me". If you are not willing to do this, I feel it's time to shut the hell up.

You know Chuck, all of this high jacking you have been doing is not necessary to get your point across. You could start a new thread to voice your opinions. I for one and I am sure others would like to read something about the RAF without your negative 2 cent input.

Tim, I am only going off what Chuck posted about the roll over in a different thread. I do not know the time frame of this event.

[gyromike]

Steve,

I flew Chuck's machine at Bensen Days this year. It was stable as a table, and a real hot rod too. It took Chuck about 60 seconds to check me out on it.

Either I'm an exceptional pilot...or his gyro really is stable and easy to fly.

It also has the nicest suspension setup of any gyro I've flown so far.

[gyromike]

Here is Chuck's post about his gyro getting rolled over:

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50153&postcount=85

[Steve Osborne]

Mike, Ron, it may fly just fine, I do not know. All I asked him to do is post a 1 or 2 minute video of him flying it with the stick locked as he has asked me to do. I am taking his silence on the subject as no or it can not be done.

[C. Beaty]

Steve, you do get things garbled; in some cases deliberate and in others not.

You started this thread with the title of “RAF no hands flying,” implying your RAF was so stable it could be flown “hands off.”

I pointed out that Bensen had coined the slogan “So stable it flies hands off” 40 years ago.

I have never said an offset gimbal head is a bad thing, only that it produces a pseudo stability that is deceptive for individuals such as you. All RAF-2000s can be flown “hands off,” horizontal stabilizer or not; that’s because of the Bensen rotorhead.

I once threw a gyro together from a truckload of junk I had bought that was every bit as unstable as an RAF-2000. Inverted Rotax engine, seat on the keel, fuel tank on the keel and no horizontal stabilizer but 3 of us were able to fly it without difficulty; the difference being that all of us, David Seace, Ernie Boyette and myself realized it was trying to kill us. But it was a ball to fly, sort of like surfboarding.

I later fitted that gyro with a rotorhead without feedback, similar to a Bell-47. It then became virtually impossible to fly, requiring constant attention just to keep right side up. The point of the exercise being to explore stability.

From out of these experiments came the modern CLT gyros. That was before everyone had computers; only later and with the aid of a computer did I learn that I’d simply rediscovered what Juan de la Cierva had known all along.

The attachment on the left is the HTL junk box gyro after the engine had been flipped and the one on the right is the no feedback rotorhead.

[LGoodhind]

>Chuck would like everyone to believe one of the problems is in the offset gimble head

Steve- you're off on that .. the comment is that the offset gimbal rotorhead hides an underlying pitch instability by providing automatic adjustment. If you read a few of DougR's posts in the last few days he describes the mechanism involved.

Locked stick testing is used to eliminate an independent variable. That's all but it's important because it can only do this effectively in a narrow window of the flight envelope .. increasing airspeed and increased stick forces .. it disappears in an updraft or unintended zero-g flight. At that point the offset gimbal basically operates like the bait bar on a Victor mouse trap.

I am pretty sure that Chuck has said in the last few days something to the effect of there is no reason anybody would choose to fly with a locked stick in a normal situation. He sometimes mentions that DickDG's machine has a stick lock for cross country but that's just an example- never any suggestion to return to spindle rotorheads that I have ever read.

Is there any way you guys could back away from the misrepresentation and attacks? It's easy to say "they did it first" but if you wouldn't accept that sort of logic from your kid you probably shouldn't accept it from yourself. Engage in a real discussion and follow it to it's conclusion with somebody who disagrees with you that you still respect. If you don't like the plate don't reject the meal- find a different plate.

The only risk I can see in that is that so far everybody who has done that has ended up being one of the bandwidth wasting people who you skim read.

Oh- he already said "I didn't say that" .. well, anyway.. aw heck, you know...

[Doug Riley]

Ron, Steve, I can't imagine that Chuck's housing arrangements and/or bank account have anything to do with gyro stability. The man has an advanced degree in physics and a lifetime working in various tech industries. His experiments and discoveries (and re-discoveries) in rotorcraft are legendary. He's pretty patient with us semi-informed yahoos, but will point out junk science and erroneous logic, as will any scientist with integrity.

If you read up on logic and debating tactics, you'll come upon a list of types of arguments universally recognized as bogus. One of them is so old that its name is Latin: the argument "ad hominem." It means roughly that, if you're losing an argument, you can try to distract people by switching to a personal attack on the opponent ("ad hominem" means "against the man"). It's an invalid tactic because it doesn't discuss the topic at all; it derails the discussion by replacing it with a gossip session.

Steve used this same ruse with me by "dissing" lawyers. It's a distraction. If a guy is right, it doesn't matter whether he's Donald Trump or lives under a railroad bridge. Check his facts and logic and argue from that perspective if you want to get some real work done.

[C. Beaty]

“When the facts are on your side, argue the facts; when they’re not, argue the law.”

[DennisFetters]

My father was killed in a snowmobile accident.it was determined that a bad weld was at fault on the sterring mechanism. He mentioned to a friend earilier that day that the stering was loose, yet didn't take the time to lift the hood and see what was the cause of the looseness in the handlebars. It is safe to say both the manufacturer of the sled and my dad were at fault.In those above accidents you posted, whose fault was it? Virtually every brand has had accidential deaths. Raf, Sparrowhawk, Benson, Dominator,Magni, Air Command. Many machines were CLT, some HTL. Machine or pilot? Again, who or what is at fault?I guess the safest stance is the one you took, Mr. Beaty. Just don't fly at all but stand back and critisize people that fly machines you don't like.

Amen to that, brother!

[Dean_Dolph]

In forum tech discussions we are fortunate that our experts attempt to provide the truth instead of what aerodynamist, Dr. Theodore VonKarman's suggested in the following quote.

"When you are talking to technically ignorant people you must resort to the plausible flasehood instead of the difficult truth

[Ron E]

I started reading this forum a couple of years ago when I got the urge to buy a gyroplane and learn to fly it. I knew very little about them, other than what I had heard. Mostly, I heard they were dangerous and would kill you if you were not careful or not trained to fly them.

I had an open mind to gyroplane design and wanted to know the truth about the matter.

From reading this forum, I learned how a gyro will kill you and which design of gyro will try to kill you when you are not paying attention (and sometimes when you ARE paying attention). I was educated by the facts and the physics presented here by unquestionably knowledgeable persons I learned to respect. Mr. Chuck Beaty is one of those many persons.

I was not influenced by emotional loyalties to brand or design. I came to Gyro World with an open mind, eager to learn the facts and ready to write a check.

I learned WHY it was in my best interests to buy and train in a gyroplane that has CLT and had a substantial horizontal stabilizer in the propwash. I did not fall prey to any sales pitch. I weighed the hard, cold facts and the physics.

Then I made a "smart", educated decision of the design of gyro I eventually purchased and in which I received training.

I chose to drive 600+ miles one-way (several times) to get dual instruction in a gyro with CLT and HS, rather than drive only 45 miles one-way to get training in a gyro that did not comply with my own safety standards. Standards that I had established for myself through education.

Others who use this approach, and avoid the hype and emotion, should make
the correct, and safer, decision as well.

[RHGraham]

In forum tech discussions we are fortunate that our experts attempt to provide the truth instead of what aerodynamist, Dr. Theodore VonKarman's suggested in the following quote.

"When you are talking to technically ignorant people you must resort to the plausible flasehood instead of the difficult truth

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Now THAT'S funny!

Randal

[RHGraham]

I started reading this forum a couple of years ago when I got the urge to buy a gyroplane and learn to fly it. I knew very little about them, other than what I had heard. Mostly, I heard they were dangerous and would kill you if you were not careful or not trained to fly them.

I had an open mind to gyroplane design and wanted to know the truth about the matter.

From reading this forum, I learned how a gyro will kill you and which design of gyro will try to kill you when you are not paying attention (and sometimes when you ARE paying attention). I was educated by the facts and the physics presented here by unquestionably knowledgeable persons I learned to respect. Mr. Chuck Beaty is one of those many persons.

I was not influenced by emotional loyalties to brand or design. I came to Gyro World with an open mind, eager to learn the facts and ready to write a check.

I learned WHY it was in my best interests to buy and train in a gyroplane that has CLT and had a substantial horizontal stabilizer in the propwash. I did not fall prey to any sales pitch. I weighed the hard, cold facts and the physics.

Then I made a "smart", educated decision of the design of gyro I eventually purchased and in which I received training.

I chose to drive 600+ miles one-way (several times) to get dual instruction in a gyro with CLT and HS, rather than drive only 45 miles one-way to get training in a gyro that did not comply with my own safety standards. Standards that I had established for myself through education.

Others who use this approach, and avoid the hype and emotion, should make
the correct, and safer, decision as well.

Yup, I'm with you on every point of that post, 100%.
Sure can be hard to wade through and get good info when folks get so fired up cause they got a horse in the race though. Ain't NOBODY here that seems "stupid" to me, seems like a pretty intelligent bunch of folks all around...myself excluded depending :0)

Still, even the fights are at least extremely entertaining... and have good info all of thier own when you're "outside-looking-in" .

If it makes ya feel better though, ya'll ain't NEARLY as bad as the racing forums I've been on.

:)

Randal

[Harry_S.]

"When you are talking to technically ignorant people you must resort to the plausible flasehood instead of the difficult truth





Is that how they sold Air Conditioners to the Eskimos?!


Cheers :)

[LGoodhind]

Statement: “Virtually every brand has had accidential deaths. […] Many machines were CLT, some HTL. Machine or pilot?”

Argument type: Lies, damn lies, statistics…

Data Resource: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp .. default ranges, category gyroplane, severity fatal

Incident/Fatality count: 21/24

Pie Chart: (see attached)

[RHGraham]

I have a good friend in Yellowknife who is Inu that sells fridges and appliances, and by all accounts is nothing less than a shark when it comes to selling stuff.
Particularly to ignorant white guys.

:0)

Randal

[Harry_S.]

I have a good friend in Yellowknife who is Inu that sells fridges and appliances, and by all accounts is nothing less than a shark when it comes to selling stuff.
Particularly to ignorant white guys.

:0)

Randal



Touche. :D


Cheers :)

[RHGraham]

I actually only added the "ignorant white guys" comment cause, well, I was one of the ignorant white guys.
:0)

[Walker]

Larry,

Excellent Pie Chart.....could you develop that line of thought further and show fatalities as a percentage of total aircraft registered by manufacturer?

Thanks,

Walker

[Ron E]

Every time you take to the air in a flying machine you are subjected to the possibility of smashing your face into the ground in a bad way, putting your lights out.

If a person is determined to fly a gyroplane, he/she should do everything possible to increase their odds of survival, so they can keep on doing it over and over again. That includes proper training, practice, and choosing a gyro design that is less likely to kill you.

Some gyros designs are like the "Victor mouse trap" mentioned by LGoodhind in post #71, being prone to PPO and drag-over due to their design. Since these issues can be avoided--then avoid them!!

Choose the safest design through becoming knowledgeable of the facts and the laws of physics that apply to gyroplanes. Then make a logical decision. That is what I did.

I am not a gyro expert, but I have respect for the laws of physics, regardless of how cool a particular gyro looks.

[Harry_S.]

KILL...KILL...KILL...ad infinitum. Why don't we get off this kick??!!

People have perished since day one vs the advent of Aviation. Included are; Airlines, Commercial, General Aviation, R&D, Experimental. Homebuilt etc, etc, etc.

Let's get to the Gyroplane.

There have been more deaths attributed to the basic Bensen model than any other, altho, I believe all makes are included in the total.

Not to toot my own horn, but I do believe I have accumulated more YEARS of experience in driving gyros than most here on the forum; let it be said, I don't claim to have anywhere near the hours of most Gyro CFI's.

I have read, I think, hundreds of FAA accident/incident reports and my personal opinion is...I would say the basic cause of at least 90% or more of the fatalities, is/was...PILOT ERROR. It can't be proved otherwise. We must be reasonable here...if it can't be nailed as a mechanical or pilot incapacitation, it must be PILOT ERROR. Forget about the design of the machine.

You cannot cite a design fault as the cause of 20 or so fatalities when hundreds of other machines and pilots have accumulated thousands of hours of safe flight in the same designed aircraft. Better than 90% of fatalities in this particular design aircraft were low time and/or inexperienced pilots/students...and even a non pilot/student.

I expect comments as to the modification of the basic design of a specific machine and they would be relevant but...my experience in a specific design is miniscule compared to some CFIs that have individually logged better than 4-5,000 hrs,in the same machine.

Let's be realistic as well as factual. To be brutal...hundreds of experienced living pilots vs 20 inexperienced.


Cheers :)

[LGoodhind]

Hey Walker- I could but I'm lazy and I think playing #'s with NTSB data leads to a specious argument anyway regardless. Having a registration doesn't mean the machine ever has any light under the tires ... you end up comparing apples and toaster ovens.

It's better to look at each instance by itself and ask if it could have been prevented through reasonable changes in the future; either design or behavior on the part of the pilot. Pretty easy to read the reports and see how many of the incident machines ended up eating their own tail.

[RHGraham]

I am just a beginner, afterall, so I probably shouldn't be sticking my nose in where it ain't belonging, so I'll just edit the post out.

[LARRYEBOYER]

The NTSB looks at hours flown vers deaths as one way at looking at aviation death statistics.I think of that as saying "fly enough hours and you get closer to an accident ."Logic would suggest that "fly enough hours and your experience should improve your chances of less accidents."That graph would say volumes if we could look at hours flown to accumulate # of deaths in a particular aircraft. The RAF could prove to be one of the safer gyro out there if the most hours were flown because of the higher number of RAFs flying vers the # of fatalities.Looking at a graph that doesn't show numbers of aircraft or numbers of hours flown may not give an honest picture.Also not knowing what caused the accident(pilot error or machine failure) gives us concern.A few on this forum blame the RAF 100% for every fatality, but give the Sparrow hawk or Magni a bye.It is so well designed and is CLT. So it has to be the pilot.(I only use those two aircraft purely as examples) Statistics are fun to look at but without all the facts,don't present the full Monte.

[Timchick]

Larry G,
How many years back did your search go? You forgot to add Bensens. There are 36 accident reports in Bensens since 1982. Not all fatal but they'd put a slice on your pie.

[LGoodhind]

Those were the default ranges- if you go to the page I think it's a 5 year span ... part of the problem with statistics is figuring out what goes in and what you leave out.

For example LarryB points out that if you calculate hours flown vs deaths in a specific make/model it may turn out that the RAF is a great machine. The problem with this technique is that a small number of people are the ones who account for the many thousands of hours- in normal analysis guys like Dofin and Duane would be outliers and left out of the data set.

Given the small number of incidents it's very difficult to make any significant comments- better to look at each incident independently.

[birdy]

Only a foolish Caveman would want someone to lock the stick,
Why do you think that Steve?

[Harry_S.]

Statement: ?Virtually every brand has had accidential deaths. [?] Many machines were CLT, some HTL. Machine or pilot??

Argument type: Lies, damn lies, statistics?





I don't care to delve on the macabre, but, I want to add what I consider relevant statistics, if you will.

I am very concerned in these RAF stats as I am an RAF owner and pilot. As I have stated several times, I have a list of RAF incidents on the tilt board in front of my 'puter. I glance at it every day and every day I'm hoping I don't have to add another entry.

To the point. From 11-6-93 thru today there have been 14 RAF fatal incidents. I concede, that is a dismal record by any reasoning...but

I will give just cumulative figures of pilot hours in type vs these incidents along with a few relevant comments.

The total number of pilot hours in these 14 incidents (which claimed 15 lives) was 374. 100 of those hours was credited to the most recent incident of 11-05-06 which was a Zoom climb and subsequent fallout to the ground. thus a total of 274 hrs. for the other 13 incidents. Additionally, one assumed fatality was of a pilot that disappeared over a large expanse of water...never recovered?!

The remaining 12 incidents have a high of a reported experience of 70 hrs. to a low of ZERO hrs. That's right, ZERO hrs. a fellow decided to mount up in an RAF and fly. Got a few feet off the ground and phoot...gone.

Other low time incidents were 9, 4, 8, 20, 22, 31. 23. and 45. Other than the most recent incident, you can see that the experience level of the pilots in type, were very low.

Judging from the incident reports and as an experienced RAF pilot, I have to opine that most were PUSHING IT. By that I mean, they were going beyond their capabilities and or their instruction. Some were even illegal.

You just cannot lump a bunch of fatal incidents and proclaim anything. You must scrutinize each incident and make a rational decision from the facts...not from a prejudiced supposition.


Cheers :)

[LGoodhind]

Harry- I realize this may sound facetious but another way to phrase what you just said is "if you're going to die in a HTL machine it's going to happen fairly early on."

As has been said by nearly everybody who has been poking you and your fellows with sticks I have no problem with you flying anything you want to fly and enjoying it. These are experimental aircraft and if you could make a bicycle frame fly more power to you- it would be cool. That said when you start talking about a commercially available kit and telling prospective buyers that the resulting machine is "stable" and use words like tame and so on you are encouraging just the sort of people who you say are the most likely to die to buy one.

Flying a HTL gyro in a CONTROLLABLE manner is a skill. Skills can be acquired through a combination of training and practice. Make a mistake in the first instance and a very attentive guy who is operating as a failsafe will cut the throttle. Make a mistake in the second phase and you're going to be the N=N+1 guy. Maybe N=N+2.

That said my personal experience with a HTL pilot/friend who died in a PPO was someone who flew his machine several times a week for years. He had well over 500 hours in the machine he died in if not more. He had many thousands of hours in helicopter before that. I went up in his machine the day before he died because I thought he could control it and, in one instance he was wrong. ChuckE was a friend of Austin's as well ... the motivation that drives many of your detractors are dead friends and strangers who often left wives and children. They speak out whenever you start talking about how fun and easy it is to fly your machines for a reason.

The issue, for me, is that this is a kit and not a one off. I'm sure with some digging I could think of a metaphor that carried that along but it's a waste of bandwidth- we all have blind spots (oh the humanity) and you're pointing at stuff you think I don't recognize and I'm doing the same. It doesn't mean we aren't talking to each other but the person who ultimately has perspective is somebody trying to decide what to build ... I would not expect these sorts of threads to disappear anytime soon.

[Mayfield]

Larry,

You are astute. Your post is non-combative and well reasoned.

Jim

[LARRYEBOYER]

And you Jim Mayfield are an officer and a gentleman.

[Harry_S.]

Larry,

Before I could remark to your Post #94, Mr. Mayfield out typed me.I have to echo Jim's remark. A fine post and I agree with it.

I don't consider your opening remark as facetious but rather well phrased.

Many years ago when I was an unlicensed "instructor", I told every newbee..."don't push it", don't try to do any more than what we've covered. Understood??

I still caution newbees, "Don't push it."

I'm sorry about your losing a friend. I well know the sorrow of it.


Cheers :)

[Timchick]

I think one thing that also makes a difference is a good portion of pilots who purchase an enclosed 2 seat gyro/kit have not come up through the ranks flying the early HTL gyros like Harry and others have. Harry, Stan and others flew the early HTL gyros, learned how to compensate and still fly their HTL enclosed gyros using those skills they developed over the years (Stan has since upgraded to a CLT enclosed gyro). These first time gyro buyers don't have those honed skills. I know there are exceptions to that but the majority of the fatalities have been low time pilots like Harry pointed out.

[StanFoster]

I am with Jim Mayfield....Larry Goodhinds post is very correct...and very diplomatic.....something that is sorely lacking here on the forum.'

I have always had the utmsot respect for Jim Mayfield by observing how he handles opposing points of view. Larry Goodhind is another fine example. Posts like these add to the betterment of us all...

Stan