Transcontinental flight. [Archive]

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gyromike

10-30-2003, 12:29 AM

Read about Andy Keech's transcontinental flight in a LittleWing LW-5 at: http://www.littlewingautogyro.com/transcon.html

Aussie_Paul

11-01-2003, 02:48 PM

That is one heck of an effort. 'cant wait to read the complete "from the horses mouth" story. Aussie Paul.

11-02-2003, 08:21 AM

Paul,  Me too. Andy has a way with words so it should be interesting.    He did a stupendous job on the flight.  That is a long flight in any aircraft. I was lucky enough to have someone like him do it in one of mine!

Aussie_Paul

11-02-2003, 06:20 PM

You sure are lucky Ron, but you do produce an excellent aircraft. Just not one that I would put forward as my first choice. Best regards, Aussie Paul. Ps. I wish I could have been with those Raf guys in my Hybrid or Raf with a stab. Would have whipped their ar**s as you yanks say.

11-03-2003, 09:20 AM

Paul,  Did you ever consider that you might change your mind if you ever flew one? Laughs, Ron

Aussie_Paul

11-03-2003, 06:20 PM

Ron, I never say never. I would have to look at my requirements at the particular time. When Jim Eich, I think it was, had his tractor on lake El Mirage in the mid 80's??? I thought that this was the only way we were going to be able to train. To have the prop out the front with a diameter that was efficient with a direct drive engine. It flew with 65 hp but went much better with the 85 Continental. I am testing my memory a bit here. With everyone building pushers, to me it was not the ideal scenario, but I thought that we would have to go down that path. As I was about to start planning to build a tractor, the Rotax came along with the redrive and power to weight ratio that made it possible to have a pusher gyro trainer. That is the path that I chose, and I think rightly so for the requirements at that time. So you see Ron, it could have been different!!!!! If I was not in the industry to make gyroplaning more achievable to more of the people, and only flew for recreation, I may very well have chosen a tractor. My problem is that I am not a natural builder. I hate building. I love flying, instructing and the testing of theory into a simple and practical use. That is me. The thought of home building a tractor gyro gives me the horrors, but I can assemble an almost bolt together pusher. To each their own.            Aussie Paul.

mcbirdman

11-04-2003, 03:48 AM

The simple and practical use... and application of theory... *I like that. *Are we talking tractors? *or Pushers ? If someones idea of *Horror is time building a tractor frame I guess mine would be where you would be when you wished you had. * *It seems like Paul was saying he would have gone down the tractor road but peer pressure affected his choice of design. *It is a choice people make but even taking years to redesign the mass produced 2 seater we typically see, clearly does not provide nearly the same degree of safety as the proven tractor. *Things are going to change and they must. *I personally can't believe how long it has taken for people to realize that they were being led off the path of safety and were convinced production numbers, slick salesman and brochures, or ease of building etc. * * *It is fun to see what people are working on, there are some interesting sleek designs but when it comes down to what I think more of the people, if they are like me would want, things would be different. **I will go the extra mile if it is a safer path. *Better availability is going to make the difference. *It complicates things for the newbie coming into the sport to be told that they are the same when in nearly every aspect you can consider regarding safety and mechanics..... it isn't so.....you can still hear it in the background of their comments such as saying well we tried it but it wasn't popular or something. *It leaves a person with the view that it was just a minor preference that was about the level of importance of deciding between high wing or low on fixed wing. *Often the level of importance seems even less by saying I prefer the view better on pusher - because it is what they aren't saying that is more important. *I guess that a large part of this gyro problem is about what you are not told. *If you do it seems like you are overly cautious and get told maybe you shouldn't fly. *What is so exciting here is that *Litle Wings list all the positive attributes point by point and it is very convincing. *This flight is incredible, yet expected achievable by all indications given by current flying Little Wings. *The fact that people can get a head start with the frame pre-built? * Wow. BTW *Ron - a Frank from Alanta, Georgia contacted me yesterday. *He has the jig layed out for his two place. He said had he not already bought the welder and signed up for the EAA classes he would have gotten the frame from you. *Wow, this is exciting. *2 more LW's started. * I just have a feeling that things are finally coming into place for you. *You haven't changed your main objective and have always held safety highest priority. * I have seen you at many meets as you patiently answer the same questions again and again - probably like most manufactures. The careful consideration you take in every aspect was appreciated and the seeds were planted. *The seed sat there waiting for all the ingredients to come together. The seed is now springing *to life as it pulls itself from the ground up into the world for all to see and enjoy. * A simple seed that has sprung up from the earth once again, as before - to be rediscovered and noticed for it's simple elegance and beauty --given to others to enjoy with safety, reliability, and the romance of flying nostalgically - when flying was fun and times seemed less complex. * *Another step towards production of this pretty bird. *I am thankful for your persistance in a world that seemed dominated by poor designs and trajedy that you took the time to think about the direction we were headed and what you could do to bring safety back into the grasp of builders and restore the safety record back to what it once was. * *There will never be a perfect record or aircraft but I can see a huge change in the direction of things to come and it is changing by the day..... *Congratulations on on your accomplishments now and the difference you have made in the past. *Can I get a packet of those seeds? ok, how bout a video? jtm

GyroRon

11-04-2003, 09:38 AM

James I will agree that the Little wing autogyro is a safer machine than the typical Pusher gyroplane. But after reading your posts on the Fly gyro forum you are making it appear that even compaired to a dominator or Sparrowhawk there is a night and day difference in the level of safety between a Pusher and a L.W. How about showing us some examples of possible situations where there is a significant level of added safety in the L.W.? I would personally say that compaired to a Dominator, or other CLT machines with proper tailfeathers, the Little Wing would be the better machine in a roll over on Take off or Landings. And the only other place I could see is if the seat tank broke or came off a non enclosed pusher type, where the little wing would " enclose " you and keep you from falling out. I love the way the Tractor gyros look. I also feel they are the best design out there. I sure hope I get a chance one day to fly one. As for PreBuilding the frames to make it easier for builders, I think this is a great idea. If Ron could get em built cheap enough and fast enough to have a supply on hand for orders, and price them low enough, I too think you will see more and more of them. It would help if they were at more of the Fly-ins for people to see. 3 Bensen Days in a row and 3 ROC's in a row and only one Little wing and one Pitbull. Neither flew. Both drew the largest crowds .... Go figure.

11-04-2003, 11:04 AM

Ron,  I understand your frustration at having non-flying LW's at Bensen Days and ROC.  I have attended Bensen days (and flew) with the LW before I got into this teaching job(which doesn't allow me to get loose in that time period).  Also, ROC is just after school starts back in the fall. But, I have regularly attended many other fly-ins like Greencastle, Mentone, Oshkosh, Waxahatchi, etc. and flown at all of them.  Andy flew his LW-5 to Waxahatchi and then back home to Maryland so there has been considerable effort to get the machines to the major fly-ins whenever possible.  As far as comparing the LW to a Dominator, you'd have to ask Dave DeWinter as he had lots of time in his Dominator before he flew the LW-3.  I am satisfied that the Dominator is a safe machine (and I give it that credit in my "Poop sheet" that I send out in the info packet).  If you fly an open-framed pusher, it is probably the best.  I'm not against all pushers.  However, I have found the tractor configuration more logical in its layout and, therefore, no compromises are necessary to get things into alignment.  That does not mean that just putting the engine in front addresses all issues.  Serious deficiencies can still exist if the "whole aircraft" is not considered in the equation.  Too short of a tail-arm comes to mind. Mass concentrated too low is another.  That is one major reason for having an airframe that is functional as structure as well as a "people container". Juan Cierva had it figured out a long time ago.  I really don't want to get into a "tractor-vs-pusher" discussion.  STABLE gyros,  that's the goal. The Little Wing is and that's enough.  Thank you for your post , it was quite fair. Ron Herron

11-04-2003, 11:09 AM

Jim,  Yes, I owe you a video.  I will get one to you.  Thanks!

GyroRon

11-04-2003, 01:31 PM

Hi Ron, Yes Dave Dewinter loved it - finally a stable gyro he didn't need a ladder to get in! I know it is hard to get to all the fly-ins. I haven't been to any of the others except B.D.'s and ROC. I just wonder what the impact would be if you were able to make it to the Big Fly-ins like Sun - n - Fun and so on in addition to the gyro fly -ins. The one thing that appeals to me is the enclosed cabin. I don't feel there is any Comfortable enclosed gyros on the market. The RAF is very UN Comfortable to me. I haven't seen the two place Little Wings but the single place I did see *- Although smaller overal than I would have guessed - looked roomy inside. For me the main reasons I would have a Little Wing is two fold, One is the cabin, and the other is as different as gyros are - from typical aircraft - a Tractor gyro is very different. Oh and one other thing, I have a feeling that some of the non gyro folks out in aviationland, might not be so quick to judge gyroplanes if they looked more like a " real" airplane than a flying grasshopper. Looking forward to the day I get me a Ride in a LW :)

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-04-2003, 01:50 PM

Ron Herron: In 1992 I bought a Gyrolane to add to my flight school. I never managed to get the machine flying, however I still plan on completly redesigning it some day. I am finally in the process of retireing from my overseas flying and plan on going back into flight instruction limited to specialized training, as follows. Aerobatic fixed wing training. ( I have the Airplane now and am doing some part time training on it. ) Seaplane training. ( I am looking for a Piper PA11 on floats. ) Gyroplane flight training. I have decided to build a Little Wing two place, my decision has taken almost ten years to finally make my mind up on the machine I will use. I am hoping to be in the position to start building one of your machines by spring. This decision does not mean that I do not recognize that others also have good designs avaliable nor that I do not have the utmost respect for many of our members who offer safe machines and first class professional *flight training. It is just my own personal decision on what I feel would be best for me. Don't be suprised if I show up at your place soon. ;D ;D Chuck Ellsworth

mcbirdman

11-04-2003, 04:23 PM

Ron A, you are not going to believe this. *This is going to be relatively short. *The seed has been planted and people are looking within to see what is most important to them. *To me it is minimizing risks and maximizing safety in my flying, even if it means a *longer road. If you read all my posts you would realize that none of the points I made were addressed at flygyro forum. * *Crashworthiness, things going through the prop of a pusher. *Lack of debri *kicked up from wheels thrown into prop. *Better clearance from ground allowing better suspension. *Quieter engine in cleaner air. *Not as hard on engine as it works more effeciantly. *Longer moment arm etc. *What more can you say? *That ALL relates to your safety. * Clear points really hurt denial. *They told me if I really want to be safe - drive a car. *Hardly credible answer to my specific points. *What could I expect from formally tailess pusher pusher? * But the main thing I like about a tractor is that it turns out that a steel cage is much stronger than thin fiberglass. *Most people think they are safe in a pusher because it looks like they have something around them. *They don't like to talk about what happens when all the weight of the engine in the back tries to slow down when the nose hits the ground. *It is hard to ignore where all the deceleration absorbtion occurs. *(thus the car remark instead of an explanation) In a tractor, the beauty of all this is the multifunction frame. *Shaped to hold the engine and the tail and on its way to each end provides some protection to the occupents. *By keeping the order of the main three objects (engine, people and tail) it usually gives bonus advantages like the one mentioned. * An item designed for one aspect is actually useful for something else. As soon as you change that order the pieces don't fit together as neatly and will never be the same. *In the pusher it just seems that you do one thing because you did another and that is where you just have to end up. *Like Mid engine raised to keep prop off ground and keep from cutting keel then requires additional cooling measures and since the air is blocked more noise and need a disproportinate tail that ends up costing in the beauty department. *Just doesn't flow as smoothly. *The more you look at it the more there is to like. *I don't dislike either of the two pushers you mentioned, *those are two of three I considered. * But if safety is number one to you like me, *then I guess I just have to start with the fiberglass.... *That is an enclosure but it doesn't lead anywhere else. *You kinda see? *I think that it is often in what you don't hear that makes a difference. *We keep hearing about how amazingly nice they finally handle but that is something that is only new and amazing to pushers. *I think so what - they got that improved but by design it will never offer the same number or intensity of advantages a tractor has. *Hard to get excited about one of many admittedly large needed change when there is so much to do, and knowing there is something out there that provides far more security. *Won't repeat all, but time will tell. *I know Ron doesn't want to appear out in the spotlight as bashing pushers. *It is obvious though that he has instead spent a lot of time researching and directing himself with the idea of safety first. *He took a long hard look at what was happening with typical gyro of the time and knew something was wrong and realized that these things were not happening with the original designs. *Just avail yourself to the facts and features. * There is a difference and only reading and understanding how all the componants often play off each other to add extra benefits you will realize the significance of a machine that is both *beautiful and functional. *There are some machines that just look right, and there are reasons for you to explore. *I just think that pusher pushers been pulling my leg for too long. *There is a difference and it is significant if not numerous. * * Beep - gotta stop to keep it sorta short. *Hope you get your ride, After all that I see I coulda saved the time.  You asked the question and answered it all in your own post.  When do YOU think you are most likely to need protection? You admitted takeoff, landing, taxing/rollovers...  Hmm about the only phase you left out is cruising.  How about the standout visibility of the aircraft, I would call that significant.  Oh well, best regards.

GyroRon

11-05-2003, 12:26 AM

James I agree with nearly all the plus' you mention. Especially the fact that the larger side area will make you more visable to other aircraft in the pattern. I don't think a proper gyro pusher is a bastard config. though. They have advantages too.... Compact so takes up less space in the hangar and on the trailer. easier to build, easier to repair, Best visability, wind in your face flying, etc...etc.... The number one gripe I hear about tractor gyros is, one... most folks think the view out will be too limited. Two... a lot of people think the taildragger gear will be hard to handle - Don't folks know that real pilots fly only taildraggers!? - and the only other real gripe is the Little wing is such a project to build. The Pit Bull has a bad rep. I have only seen one and it looked okay to me except the control system which to me looked way undersized for the application. I also tried to fly it and it wouldn;t get off the ground and was very squirrely to keep in a straight line. Like I said, If Ron H could get a supply on hand of ready to cover airframes, and maybe even get a dacron sail maker - like the covering used on fixed wing ultralights - to make pre sewed easy to install covering, and have a bolt together kit, All at a reasonable price.... He would sell as many as he could make IMHO. He really ought to look into finding some cheap imigrant labor? Here in N.C. we have tons of Mexican men here that will work as long and hard as you will let them for a fairly low wage..... But James the safety issue I don't agree with is the fact that there is really only two types of accidents in gyros. Low speed landing or Take off flip overs. And out of control lawn dart accidents at high speeds. In the former, I believe where the engine is will make little difference. I do believe that that compared to a totally open or semi open pusher the frame work of the little wing will help minimize injuries. But all these accidents are usually walk away from accidents, so the little wing may just help cut down on the road rash - although gettting tossed around in a steel cage without a helmet may hurt even worse? In the high speed crashes where there is a  loss of control, or high speed rotorflap, or the blades depart the gyro or whatever, I think your dead either way. The Little wing is just more tubes to move out of the way to pick up your pieces. Look there is no doubt it is a better way to go. Get yours done and sell it to me. I will promote the heck out of them, and you can start on another one!  ;D

mcbirdman

11-05-2003, 05:23 AM

Hi Ron, Keeping a little shorter even, gotta get to work. I will wear helmet/headset (while being buckled in) for the same reason race car drivers in a cage wear them or a parachutist wears them. Most accidents resulting in lawn dart have been precipitated by problems plaqued with poor designs. *IOW Ignoring one problem went to stage two and then catastrophic result. *Historically not been the problem with tractors. *But in this situation I agree a loss. Statement about taildragger pilots only real pilots.... just another testosterone based comment commonly found in aviation. *With the landing roll 0-12 feet at 0-15mpy do you think this is nearly the same? *Training in a T dragger would help this become automatic if you felt the need. *Any training is good. Do you know that Ron trailers his unit on a snowmobile trailer? *With a channel extending out for the tailwheel I wouldn't let the length or storage determine the safety of what I flew. *Yes it is longer but the advantage is there because it is longer. Along the lines of me thinking pusher is bastard design..I always thought that bastard meant a kid without a father. *If that is true then I think history would show that it certainly left a lot of kids without a father. *The fact that it went on for so long without being talked about or figured out is amazing to me. *So they got one of many problems figured out. *Still doesn't give the full benefits available in the older design. The project does take commitment and it is something to be proud of. *I also say that this is the design that will start showing up at airports and will start changing minds of the aviation community. *Once we gain their approval things will get better. *Right now because of the pusher problems and *backyardish tinker toy like that thing can't possibly fly look that we have been trying for years isn't being bought. *It still looks funky and I couldn't say beautiful, flowing, romantic, classy or whatever. *We know it is functional but just doesn't get accepted as easily. *I wish I was good enough to build a machine for you. *If I was good enough to do this for a living and I could do it full time I would. *It truly is a labor of love bringing these to life. *The fact that it is getting easier to do is exciting and brings it more within our grasp to aquire. * The windows I put in the back and the shoulder to shoulder windows are not like sitting in an airliner looking out the oval window..... *You will just have to sit in one to know it isn't what you think..... Well, it seems you and I actually *agree that there are many advantages to the tractor and it isn't just about aesthetic principles. *That is why I tried to bring out some specific points. * *Some people will stand behind their pusher at all costs and some people can see point by point that there is a big difference. *I have enjoyed other posts you have placed in the past and know that your mind is open to trying new things and striving for better things. *Better things are in the works and I think finally we might be in a position to start rebuilding the safety record we once had. *I just have had a hard time seeing people talk about old safety record and how safe these were while what they weren't saying is that their current design was having major problems. *No wonder it took years to put the tail back on....I think since you have flown many different configurations - it would be great to have you experience the difference but realize that many of the items are just there - in case you need them. *Well take care, jtm *

GyroRon

11-05-2003, 10:22 AM

The one Airplane the Little Wing reminds me of most is the Team Hi Max. I owned and flew one of these just before I bought my first gyro. I know from flying it, the view outside isn't at all bad.

mcbirdman

11-05-2003, 01:29 PM

I did a search on Hi max from the front it does look similiar.  It eventually led me to the site that makes lil buzzard and the Ultra pup which this is based on.  Preceptor aircraft is the manufacture. With your shoulders to either window you can certainly look down and see below you - just not between your legs below you... I got an email today from the frank who is building the long single place LW3 .  Would that be a LW3-1LR ?  He had the frame on the table ready to weld.  But  then the other photo, a big square box and looking down into it was a rotec engine.....  Is that cool or what !  It is great to see the interest and the committment being made. Ron did you build any of the birds you flew or do you usually get them after they have flown a while?  Then after flying trade them in for some more different fun? jtm

GyroRon

11-05-2003, 02:16 PM

I like to fly. It is too easy to write a check and enjoy someone elses pride and joy, And then when your ready to try something else just sell it and move on. No emotional attachment to get in the way..... But if you guys - the builders - all did like me then times would be tough for lazy butts like myself.

mcbirdman

11-06-2003, 01:09 AM

I remember you saying you didn't like to build.  Then, after I posted and was reading I saw you were trying to sell one and then later read you were looking to buy - so then I pretty much figured it out.  I guess that is one way to get a ride in different designs.... I know that there is an emotional attatchment that does happen when you spend so much time bringing something up from nothing.  I would think that some of the people you bought from didn't really want to sell.  I think that some people might as part of the deal consider how well you take care of things/how long it will be around after it is gone from their hands just to make them feel better.  I know it may not make sense since they won't own it anymore but it is almost a passing of the torch of their passion.  I wonder if you just plan to use it and send it on its way maybe it makes it a little more hurtful?  I know it shouldn't matter it is just a money transaction but I think there is something more - maybe not.  I think of the guy who kept his 57 chevy all cleaned up for years.  Then he decides to sell it to someone he thought would keep it going.  He sells it to a guy who keeps it running... every day winter or summer for a couple years until there isn't much left of it.  The original owner sees the car everyday on the road and kicks himself for selling it that way.  Why?  I guess these are unique machines and are appreciated with a lot of care given to them.  Do you encounter that?

GyroRon

11-06-2003, 02:16 AM

Maybe a little bit, but normally no.

mcbirdman

11-06-2003, 04:32 AM

Out of all the aircraft you have flown, you would say gyros are the most fun?  If so, I assume that  Dominator has been your personal favorite?   I figured I wasn't going to be trading up and down so when I decided what I was going to do - it automatically affected other things like build time and when I would take instruction.  If I had gone Dominator I would have been doing instruction this year.  Next summer I hope....jtm  

GyroRon

11-06-2003, 07:58 AM

Yes the Dominator has been my favorite. It isn't the most powerful or has the best ground handling but the wheels leave the ground the way she flys so stable and light to the touch is comforting.

dragonflyerthom

11-02-2006, 03:19 AM

This is a very old and very interesting thread. I agree it is difficult to sell a craft that you have put soo much into. Kind of like selling your children. I do believe some are so fearful they can't finish the project and sell it instead.

Doug Riley

11-02-2006, 06:34 AM

Thom, the serious aircraft homebuilders just love to build stuff. The flying proves out their project, but they're ready to sell after 5-10 hours.

With the good builders, it's not necessarily fear that inspires them to sell, just an addiction to cutting metal. These guys often turn out the best machines of all, because their hearts are in the building.

If somebody sells after one crow-hop, or before flying at all, and especially if he's a first-time builder, THEN it's the time to watch out.

dragonflyerthom

11-02-2006, 06:46 AM

That sounds logical Doug. This is my first full scale build and I am loving it but I think I will have problems letting my build go. I can see where I will be working on my Gyro for a long time. I could have b een finished back in July but have torn apart and redone several times. I want it to be just right ya know?