Nuke'em

[Screw]

Screw-In

I'm sure all here have heard of the Berg Beheading. I just saw the real video of it. My heart has litterally dropped out from under me and my sorrow and prayers go to his family.

It is apparent that there are still alot of pockets of resistance, and alot of Americans (soldiers and otherwise) still being killed. Can someone tell me why we as Americans haven't put an end to all of this? I know we are wanting to minimize the amount of collateral damage and we are already spending massive amount of money trying to rebuild the place, but isn't the rebuild a little premature?

IMHO, clean house on a nuclear level, then rebuild.

BTW, If you haven't seen this video of the Be-Heading, you don't want too.

Screw-Out

[MikeBoyette]

John,
I saw the video and it was the most disturbing thing I have ever seen. It made me wish I was still in the Army. I would love to hunt that masked coward down and make him wish he were dead. They think those prison pictures are bad, If I were left in a room with that bastard the prison pictures would be considered child's play. I say we use the Nutron Bomb so it just kills every living thing and then we set up and start pumping the oil. That way we get cheap gas and no more scum bags.

[Chuck Irby]

I kinda hate to admit it, but I like Mike's idea.

[Heron]

Oh no! Now they want to nuke an entire nation because of a few crazy loonies!
What does The Book says about revenge?
If you let them get to you they've won . . .
Heron

[Chuck Irby]

What's the answer, Heron? They can't be reasoned with.

[Screw]

Screw-In

You don't have to nuke an intire nation to make a point. One well placed nuclear divice will put a stop to all of this, and bring a fear to those who would oppose us.

Screw-Out

[GyroRon]

I saw the video last week. I have seen Faces of death, and a lot of other real tapes showing folks die, But that tape about made me sick. I strongly urge anyone who hasn't watched it to just skip it. It is not something you want to see. And I am with Mike, Nuke the bastards, get cheap gas.

[scottessex]

I am a veteran of Desert Storm, (I was not deployed) My cousins husband is in Iraq right now.
We killed alot of civilians when we burned Tokyo, and droped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It took 2 atomic bombs before the japs surrendered!
We need to kick ass and clean house, otherwise it will never end. and we need to start bombing the mosques also! People who's religion is world domination and cutting the heads off your adversaries, cannot be dealt with in a manner that we understand. They are a virus and must be eliminated.
(No milk and cookies, bleeding heart liberals need respond)

[Chuck Irby]

Well said, Scott. When are you gonna cook the burgers for us?

[scottessex]

Anytime you come visit!

[Chuck Irby]

Scott, I don't want to be your only guest. Pick out a good weather weekend and let's have a fly-in like we've talked about. We need to christen that new place of yours.

[Screw]

Screw-In

Don't worry Chuck, you will not be the only one there. :D

Screw-Out

[le-wardy]

Yes Gentlemen I agree,

It is hard to reason with religious fanatics, as they are so f#*ked up in the head from the constant brain-washing they receive.

The selective elimination of these zombies with a piece of lead holed between the eyes, would be a calling to them in as to either, "waking up to themselves", or sleep still for a long long time.

With all the sh!t that's going on around the world, with maniacs running rampant slaughtering innocents. Selective culling is the way to go.

Caring human beings to the left, erratic feral animals next to the gaping chasm before going to limp mode.

[ahancock]

I suppose I am a bit perverse, but I would like to see that video. Does anyone have the url?

[Heron]

Yesterday in Rio, a prison rebelion ended with more than 50 dead.
Gangs inside the facility turned against each other, they called it a tragedy.
I see it like system purging itself.
The despair showed on TV from the families waiting outside did not touch me, they live and support that kind of system, every single one waiting its turn to take advantage of the mess.
You advocates of mass genocide are not a novelty, it is embeded in your DNA and according to the Bibble the first to resort to violence killed 25% of the population in one stroke, or course I do not agree.
Now, destroying mosques is good . . .really intelligent. HOw do you think Mr. Sadam kept that mess under relative control for so long?
OUr allies the SAudi have a system as bad as the other one and the fortune amassed by the government kept in place to favor some very known entities is obscene, but its ok . . .they are on our side now!
Stop been stupid and read some books!
What kind of costume should I use at the barbecue, my jewish name, my african cloth, my arabic turbant or should I dress like one of my most recent ancestors and down a Wermacht uniform?
Maybe you are right, lets blow the entire globe and hope God can sort it out!
Give me a break!
Heron (that wasted part of his youth in the library)

[scottessex]

Heron, point taken, But how do you deal with radical fanatics and zealots?
They don't respond to normal (the rest of the world) rationalization. I wish we had an answer. But appeasing and/or ignoring them does not and will not work. We know that from history. (books I read).
They hate the Jews, Christians, and everyone else who is not one of them.

[Screw]

Screw-In

Heron, I like you. I don't understand some of your posts but the more I read them, the better I understand. Giving you the same benifit of the doubt, and please keep in mind it is ok to disagree, I will try to explain my position a little better.

We have played by the rules and given deadlines for compliance that have gone unanswered for a long time now. Now that we have gone in, we are spending an insane amount of money using smart weapons to minimize collateral damage.

The pockets of resistance are so many and spread all over that I'm not sure a single nuclear device would do the trick. But I'm confident when they realize that we have detonated a nuclear weapon, they'll think twice about killing anymore soldiers or people trying to help them rebuild thier country.

It is very sad that our politicians cannot come to this conclusion, or maybe I'm crazy. We are dealing with a gangs of religious people who will give their lives to kill us!

I'm not advocating killing a nation, I'm advocating the use of our weapons of mass destruction to save innocent lives. Both us and them.

Like so many here, I too am a parent. My heart went out to the parents of this young man who was be-headed. I can only imagine the pain and anguish they are going through. These are street thugs running around under our noses snatching and killing people who are there to help their government rebuild. God only knows what that poor Lynch girl went through because they certainly aren't talking about that.

Nuke'em and put an end to it. If it doesn't put and end to it, Nuke'em again, and again untill it does. This is a war that needs to come to an end NOW!

Screw-Out

[KenSandyEggo]

"But I'm confident when they realize that we have detonated a nuclear weapon, they'll think twice about killing anymore soldiers or people trying to help them rebuild thier country."

I thought that the fanatics WANT to die as "martyrs" and reap the rewards of martyrdom, such as a bevy of virgins waiting for them when they get to heaven. So why would they be deterred?

[Screw]

Screw-In

Ken, A "martyr" usually fight to the death for what they believe. There is no fighting in nuclear battle. No one to hear the voice as it passes. Just quick painless death for those in a 5 mile radiaus. Alot of suffering for those who weren't so close.

Don't worry though, I'm sure we will spend an insane amount of money trying to help those that survive who are willing to conform to the changes being made.

You're right and it may not do any good, I maybe wrong I don't know. I hear of the prisoners we take captive. We keep them clean and fed, and yes I am aware of the pictures of a couple of soldiers that got out of line. But I also hear nightly of the 4 soldiers here, 3 soldiers there. Hell, no one heard of this Berg guy being captured until they showed the video of his be-heading. It all adds up.

When we first went in, it was like Desert Storm! Very little resistance. We have lost more lives since the fighting stopped, than we did when we went in ready to fight. Well, if they are now ready to fight, they had there chance.

Nuke'em! Keep Nuking'em till they glow!

Donald Trumps always looking for realistate deals. I know where he can alot of oil front property if we win! Wouldn't it be great to reserect the twin towers right in the middle of Bagdad next to the Walmart of course!

Imagine the reality shows we could come up with. The Bachelorette muselum style, Fear Factor with real pork, Oil field Island, Iraque Idol.

Screw-Out

[Doug Riley]

Ken's right. Our tactics so far have played right into the hands of the fanatics. They want nothing more than for us to commit more atrocities -- we hand them better recruiting gimmicks than they could possibly devise for themselves. The beheading, 9/11 and other similar loathsome acts are all intentional provocations.

The fanatics preach and recruit around the globe... including here at home (remember John Walker Lindh?). Their standard line is that we are hypocrites; as THEY see it, we wring our hands about civil rights at home, but abroad we are racist butchers. In their line of propaganda, Hiroshima is American Atrocity Exhibit A (review the 1998 TV interview with Bin Laden). They're wrong, of course, but the story hangs together well enough to appeal to people who have little hope anyway.

If we "nuke" one country (assuming that we are willing to chuck our morality just 'cause THEY have none), it will help convert millions of NON-fanatics into fanatics. We end up on the losing end if that happens. In fact, it already has on a smaller scale and we're in substantial doo-doo as a result. We're our own worst enemy when it comes to winning over the "undecided" of the world. I hope we get smarter very soon.

[mcbirdman]

Meanwhile, THEY are thinking if we only get our hands on a nuclear device..... the US will see that we are serious and have to be listnened to.... they also know that it doesn't have to be a bomb. That is why they sit there watching us and look for our weak spots. If they send a few body bags back at a time they know that it will help fuel arguments within the US about whether we should really be there. This is one technique they know works. People are talking about the book from a former General in Vietnam who said he knew he couldn't win against the strength of the US. They figured if they kept sending back even a few at a time, whatever they could do - they could affect public opinion and push us back.

All I know is the stories my brother sends us and although he has seen some bad things I know he has not seen the extreme danger other soldiers face daily. It is hard to watch them sit on their hands while they are storing and firing weapons in "churches". There is so much more to the stories as reported on television. It seems most often you see the people jumping up and down on destroyed equipment or looking at bulletholes in their churches while displaying anger at us.

What do you think happens before they get their church shot or whatever? I think while trying to be cautious we take a lot of rock throwing, pot shots, sniper attacks etc until we can go after them, and even so - in a limited manner because we have to respect their buildings at the cost of our lives. I feel frustrated with the situation but we play with one set of rules while there isn't any with them. They know they are causing arguments within the US and are trying to divide us internally. We need to know what their intentions are so that we aren't going to be doing the fingerpointing game that they are so far being somewhat effective.

We have to be united and support our goverment's tactical decisions since there is no way we can know what is really going on. We have to hope that since the goverment is us that there are more good things going on than bad and that this influence will be the best thing for all. It really is sad to see us having to actually lose our friends and family because of violent, aggressive and plotting people. Our people are being killed while we are worried about gas prices and building our gyros. Learning to live in this world sure presents conflicting paths and competing priorities.

As I get older and can start to look back I realize that all this kind of death and destruction was still going on while I was being taught how to walk, what was right and wrong and to be good to my neighbors....unaware of what was real. My parents must have thought how strange it was back then to be teaching us basic principles when they were aware of similiar dangerous events occuring. I guess something we can all do is hug our kids and do what we can to let them enjoy the same kind of childhood, or at least the kind you think they should - while we do what we can to protect them and our future.

We have some more friends that are now being called up to go add support. Being that we have a N.G. Air Base here at the airport we have people move into town, get training and then ship out. While they are here we get to know them as they become a part of our community. It is hard to see them ship out and have to face such worthless cowardly adversaries. We are lucky to have family and friends that step up to the plate when they are asked. They are amazing !

[rehler]

The answer is education - propaganda (truthful and positive).

If the US media would print/show the good and not the bad, and we had radio and television telling the good and not the bad to the people in the middle east and Europe, then things could change.

But as long as the US media keeps up the “negative” and we have no positive propaganda it will never end. Knowledge of the truth in the minds of everyone here and there is the answer - not bombs.

[Screw]

Screw-In

Our troops are amazing, and I only want the best for all, even if it is ugly.

No offense Rehler, but "Make Love Not War" didn't work in the 70's, and it aint gonna work now. Media typically goes for shock value and ratings. I agree that the news isn't always the truth. We don't even get the truth from the powers that be.

I do have faith that our government is doing the best it can and I do support thier course of actions regardless of my opinion. But as an American my opinion is still:

NUKE'EM TILL THEY GLOW!!!

Screw-Out

[scottessex]

Ken is right, the media is on thier side.

We could build our own "dirty bombs" by straping pork chops to daisy cutters!

[Heron]

Ok boys . . .home work . . .lets start with Marco Polo and the subsequent loss of market by the arabic people, the charging of toll to cross their land in route to the Orient spices, the holly wars that came later when someone said they've seen the Holy Grail in profane muslim hands (and just because we are on our way to war why not practice a little with those bastard jews that killed Jesus?) and the quest for a maritime route around Africa that gave us the Discoveries and etc. . .etc . . .
USA is a beautifull nation and it is full of good people, but in a minor scale, 5 year old boys are in this very moment learning the "truth" in school. As I seen in a muslim home in New Jersey, this boy came to please his father and showed us how been so young he could recite one verse of the Koram.
That is a book made in a laboratory like the other two and those verses are measured to be said in one only breathe with training.
Whomever learns through this method will have the meaning of those verses embeded on their minds forever like its is the only thruth. It is not easy and takes time, thus the father been so proud that a little boy could already recite one verse.
The boy ended purple and his eyes bulging for the effort, poor creature. . .he has no chance of knowing any other version of life, right or wrong.
Saladino gave the keys of the Holy Grave to a family to care for it (the same today) and invited all to come to Jerusalem, because that was the right thing to do.
When the christians finally won one of the crusades what happened? The entire city was passed under the sword . . .good people! Nuke'm till they glow!
It took them centuries of abuse to get out of their little holes in de sand and strike back . . .we are paiyng for it and so are those who never did anything for revenge.
My great grand parents fled Lebanon in the 20's because they were catholics and moved to Brazil where 570 people live peacefully and in order from the first couple.
Now there are 5 american citizens from that family, my niece worked at ground zero and she is very upset and if anyone show her where is the "button", she will gladly press it, erasing and entire region, all of those countries, because she does not know anybetter and America is home for her.
You have too much censorship and history is sold here by those with high interest in the whole enchilada, look at the maps and show me Palestine (only in old maps now) the new ones already count in a different country there.
And you think you know what you are talking about? REad for God's sake . . .read!
You do no kill an idea, you change it! You can only kill people, and for each one there will be two to take their places in the line of resistance.
I can see when there will be no more oil there, just sand and nobody to care for it.
Funny thing walking on the 25th of March street in Sao Paulo, muslims and jews living in peace and seeping cofee together discussing what if's . . . .
Peace and understanding are possible and those carrying weapons should not be allowed in the meetings.
Heron (coming to think of it the assault weapons guys are a little nicer)

[scottessex]

Peace sells, but nobody is buying...

[Screw]

Screw-In

Don't mean to ruffle your feathers Heron. If it were a perfect world we'd all be flying gyros sipping on coffee discussing what ifs from Scotts new field.

When the idea becomes so extreme for the rest of the world to swallow (9/11, and be-headings), and the world decides to take action, people die. It's not racisum, genicide, or the Nazis.

None of the Arabic leaders condone the actions of Sadaam or Bin Laden. As far as I know these leaders are in bed with us, but certain sects wont give up the people we are after, and these people are still leading misguided youths to their deaths in the name of religion a few body bags at a time.

Just because I can't spell, doesn't mean I don't read. I feel like I'm very familiar with history, not so much the crusades against paganism, but certainly recent world wars and conflicts. I further agree with what you said about changing ideas that a change of ideas are in order.

We are trying as far as I know to remove these idiots from power and give the land back to it's goverment. The world is backing that idea verses 9/11 and be-headings. I also agree that there are people in the land that haven't a clue and are truely innocent. We saw alot of that with Desert Storm.

BTW-Why do you keep bringing up Jews? Hitler isn't running America, and I don't think it is a fair comparison.

If we Nuke the areas where we think they are, chances are we will get the people we are after. If there is some collateral damage, chances are they were the "Innocent" people hiding the leaders we wanted and I can live with that.

I AM NOT SAYING TO DESTROY THE NATION OR THE CULTURE. I AM SAYING STOP LOOKING TO CAPTURE THESE F*CKING BASTARDS, AND KILL THEM!

Screw-Out

[Heron]

I can understand you.
But let me tell you about your govenment: there are 3 americas, not that everyone is bad.
I was an athlete, almost very good in high school, and played in the band, a big one, second place nationwide.
I saw a happy and proud people come under military dictatoship for 21 years and have taken away the proud and the right to free assembly. From then on only military in the nations parades.
People were tortured and just disappear like smoke in the blue sky and I was in the army by than and they use to talk a lot about communists and subversives and we never saw one.
Some silly students went nuts an started trouble and most of them today are in the government, the last president was one of them.
Guess who was behind the dictators and coordinating repression?
But in Brazil there are no big books to follow an people make jokes about God and Jesus and all . . .not a revengefull people.
I hate to brake in the bad news but you have been sold a lot of crap about right and wrong.
I can only go so far, one day in person I wil tell you a different angle about some facts
Many people tried a fix for the Middle East and did not work, we are just small individuals comparing with the complexity of this situation.
But the end of Clinton's terms was the top of the admiration for the USA in the whole history of this great nation, in months all was in chambles.
What a pitty! You have no idea what can happen and if you are still waiting for someting big, forget it . . .it will come quiet and unstopable.
For long time I had a littel american flag on my wallet, but no Brazilian flag, the marks of the dictator took away my proud and the athletes from Brazil brought it back.
Now I have my bigger American flag and also a Brazilian one . . .i feel proud again! For both countries . . .but my friends in Brazil do not understand, they have a general bad idea about all of you . . .they do not know better. Great people live here too!
So . . .should I press the anti american button? Should I press the other one?
I don't think so, for me the only real victory is turning foe in friend.
REmember the soviets, those white devils that used to eat babies for breakfast, theya re allies now. So are the germans, the japanese, the Britts and all the old enemies.
Maybe one day we'll be friends with the turbanted ones and if we nuke'm there will be no one to deal with.
There are good people there too.
Heron

[quadrirotor]

as long as the rest of the world is thinking that what you have you did steal it to the rest of the world, walking on their head and killing them, we'll be in trouble...

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

I understand that sand is used to make glass.

A really powerful thermonecular weapon would turn Mecca into a glass area that would be a smooth as the Utah Salt Flats..

In a few thousand years they could get back in their holy site when the radiation falls to a level that they could rebuild it.

In the mean time they could look at the radiation glow to see which way to kneel to pray. :D

Chuck E.

[RayPierce]

President Jimmy Carter advocated the development of the neutron bomb.
Very intense short-lived-no-residual radiation and very little explosive force. It would kill off the biologics but leave structures in place. What ever was left near the region that survived could move back in almost immediately. Mecca would still be there.
The extremist Muslims are the last of the "world domination" crowd.
They will not rest until all have submitted to Allah or are dead.

Get used to it. It will be to your door step eventually.
The sooner eveyone realizes this the sooner we can all deal with it effectively. Until then either submit to Allah are prepare to fight for your life.

[scottessex]

These people don't respond to the "lets be nice to them" mentality. Death and violence is all they understand.

OUR JOB IS TO ARRANGE THIER MEETING WITH ALLAH!

KILL 'EM ALL LET GOD SORT 'EM OUT!

SEMPER FI!
I LOVE THE SMELL OF NAPALM IN THE MORNING!

[Glenn D]

Buddy i'm new to the group and this is my first post, BELIEVE ME you don't want to see it. this is something that will ruin your day!! i wish i hadn't seen it.

[The Rock]

If you read books, no matter if these books are revisionist history written by the "blame America and Western Civilization first" crowd, does this give you the right to be a self-proclaimed "intellectual"? Does this allow you to only recite their diatribe and not think for yourself?

Sure, the USA has made its mistakes, and self-interest has often blinded it to the long term consequences of its actions. Still, on balance, the USA has done more to better mankind than all other world civilizations combined. We freed Europe and China from the oppression and domination of Hitler and Tojo. Then, after their defeat, what did we do? Occupy their land? Enslave their people, as most other conquers throughout history have done? No, we gave them money, equipment, and manpower to rebuild their societies.

We are in a cultural war with fanatic Muslims that find our very existence repugnant. They have no tolerance for anyone who has different faiths, ideals, and lifestyles from their own. Their simple answer for the resolution of this cultural war is to bring us to the feet of Allah, or annihilate us. How do you negotiate with people like this? How can you justify their "cause" by claiming that our ancestors (certainly not us) have wronged them to the extent that we deserve their revenge?

Heron, you said "the end of Clinton's terms was the top of the admiration for the USA in the whole history of this great nation, in months all was in chambles (shambles)." Did you forget that if the truck had been placed 20 feet away from where it was, that many thousands would have died in the World Trade Center in 1993. Perhaps, if we had responded with force at that time, maybe we wouldn't have suffered September 11. Do you really think we were admired, or viewed as weak and lacking the will to fight?

There is a cultural war ongoing within the USA as well. If Clinton had chosen to invade Iraq, little would have been said by the left. What did they say when he chose to fight in Bosnia without the support of the UN? Nothing! No, this is all about power. The left in this country with the aid of the mainstream media are determined to regain power at any cost. What's best for the country be damned.

[Chuck Irby]

"OUR JOB IS TO ARRANGE THIER MEETING WITH ALLAH!" Scott, with the current leadership, and the potential leadership, don't look for this to happen. With the two major parties, what really needs to happen . . . won't! This will go on, and on, and on . . .

"Get used to it. It will be to your door step eventually." Ray, I am afraid you're totally correct.

Glen, Thanks, I will not see it. Welcome to the forum Glen!

Cliff Rock, Well said, and Welcome to the forum Cliff!

[birdy]

Firstly,I gotta say I'm glad Oz is a yank allie.[If any race/country was gunna nule the world,I'd prefer america to them crazy &^%$#@# that don't respect women.]

How to stop the mayhem,I don't know.Blow the crazys to the **** house and unless you get every single one,they'll breed again like flys.[death don't scare these d.ckh.eads]
Reason with them............yeh right.[it's the ability to "reason" that separates us from the animals.]

The cause of the problem???
Well I'm gunna out me head on the block ere,religion.

Religion is a belife,both sides of countless wars over the centuarys can be based on two different religions in conflict.It may not be the religion to blame,but the agitators use the threats to their respective gods to rally support for war.Support from gullible people.

Now,before you shout me down as an infidel,I do have a belife, but not a god[so to speek] more like a goddess.Mother nature.
She makes all the laws I live by,and unlike most other gods,if I break the rules,she lets me know pretty soon,not when I',m dead.
If I follow her rules [when growing free range cattle] I can't go wrong,and she don't exect me to pray,cover my wife from head to toe or sit in a trance goi'n hmmmm.

When it's all boiled down,if we all belived in mum nature,[she who can't be misconcived] then gulible typs wouldn't be brainwashed by dictators because we can "see" who is mak'n the rules.

That said,I'll never argue with anyone on the subject of religion,everyone is free to blieve what they want,includ'n me,and I only get p.ss.d off when someone tryes to convert me.

Just the views of a SCG.

[Chuck Irby]

Birdy, you make a good point. I don't believe as you do about everything. However, I have a lot of respect for you, and your views:

"The cause of the problem???
Well I'm gunna out me head on the block ere,religion."

I totally agree, religion has allowed multitudes of people, for centuries, to be gullable, and therefore, brainwashed.

[The Rock]

True religion can benefit society and keep it civil, if its followers practice tolerance of other's beliefs. That said, I agree with your point Birdy. Megalomaniacs throughout history have twisted religious faith to subjugate their mindless followers.

It is not an issue of our tolerance for other's beliefs, but one of protection of ourselves against those who intend to do us harm in the name of religion. Other than their narrow beliefs, the only thing these fanatics respect is STRENGTH. Until our leaders and the "negotiate at any cost" group come to this realization, we are all in peril.

As President Reagan often said, "We may not be able to make them see the light, but we can make them feel the heat."

[Chuck Roberg]

News Anchor Dan Rather, NPR Reporter Cokie Roberts, and a U.S. Marine were hiking through the desert one day when they were captured by Iraqis. They were tied up, led to the village and brought before the leader.

The leader said, "I am familiar with your western custom of granting the condemned a last wish. Before we kill and dismember you, do you have any last requests?"

Dan Rather said, "Well, I'm a Texan; so I'd like one last bowlful of hot, spicy chili." The leader nodded to an underling who left and returned with the chili. Rather ate it all and said, "Now I can die content."

Cokie Roberts said, "I'm a reporter to the end. I want to take out my tape recorder and describe the scene here and what's about to happen. Maybe someday someone will hear it and know that I was on the job 'til the end. "

The leader directed an aide to hand over the tape recorder, and Roberts dictated some comments. She then said, "Now I can die happy."

The leader turned and said, "And now, Mr. U.S. Marine, what is your final wish?"

"Kick me in the ass," said the Marine.

"What?" asked the leader. "Will you mock us in your last hour?"

"No, I'm not kidding. I want you to kick me in the ass," insisted the Marine.

So the leader shoved him into the open, and kicked him in the ass. The Marine went sprawling, but rolled to his knees, pulled a 9mm pistol from inside his cammies, and shot the leader dead.

In the resulting confusion, he leapt to his knapsack, pulled out his M4 carbine, and sprayed the Iraqis with gunfire. In a flash, the Iraqis were dead, dying or fleeing for their lives.

As the Marine was untying Rather and Roberts, they asked him, "Why didn't you just shoot them? Why did you ask them to kick you in the ass?"

"What!?" said the Marine, "And have you liberal assholes call ME the aggressor?!?" :) :) :) :)

[Heron]

heeheheh Chuck you are mean!!! :)
But there is this big desk full of triggers and I am the one who gets to choose witch one to press.
What would I choose? So far I choose the one that blasts the desk, no more big threats . . .
Anyway can you guys hold on till I have a chance to visit my ancestors homeland and then you blow it to oblivion?
thanks
Heron

[Screw]

Screw-In

Ray Said, "Get used to it. It will be to your door step eventually."

It's already here. This is the part where I get trashed:

Having work for a long period of time in the prison system in the state of Georgia, most prisons demographics here go like this:

75% Black
21% White
4% Other

Don't know the current exact percentage, but when I left, the 1500 inmate plus level 5 (out of 6 possible) security prison I was assigned too as their Training Instructor, better than 60% of the black population was Muslem and growing.

I know that all religions are supposed to be of a peacefull nature, Worship God (or whatever) and practice thier laws. I have no problem with people choosing thier faiths and the practice there of. From what I understand of the Muslem religion, it is one of the oldest faiths known to man, and very peacefull. However, I agree that the people practicing this old religion have destorted it content to the point of senseless violence.

In the prison system, young and impressionable black men comming into the system looking for belonging, would be recruited into the Muslem faith, change thier names, and hate all white people (the blue eyed Devil). White people are evryones problem, and the reason why they are in prison. They would use the faith to violate prison rules, stir up racial problems, and just cause havoc in the name of religion.

It is my opinion that Muslems like Gandi and thousands of others practice the faith as it was meant to be. No Problem. Other converted Muslems use thier "New" faith to justify Racism, murder, and other violent acts taking no responsibuility for their actions, claiming it is their way.

It is further my opinion, that these people are butchering the intent of the Muslem religion. Real Muslems are peacefull people, I don't know who these murdering racist people think they are.

Also, people are being released from prison every day at the same statisticle level and moving in next door.

Screw-Out

[scottessex]

I once heard that "all muslims are not terrorists, But all terrorists are muslim"
--Ackmed Mohamed Ali-Baba

[scottessex]

"Can't we all just get along?"
---Rodney King

[chuter]

Good post John. I also believe that all religions are peaceful in their true form, but have been distorted by man for man's gain.
The numbers you gave from prisons are pretty scary. They say the next world war will be a religious war, sure seems possible.

[Chuck Irby]

It seems to me that the war we're in now is a Religious War.

[mrford61]

John, I am fairly sure that the muslim religion is a relatively "new" religion, dont quote me but I think around 600AD.

The Rock, A very good well put together response. I am sure you include all allies when saying America freed Europe and China from the aggression of Hitler.

There is a war on now, not recognisable because it doesnt fit the masses interpretation of war. And if the West insists on "playing by the rules" while the radicals dont know the meaning of the word, we will lose.

A heavy duty discussion for a gyro forum. :D

Cheers

[Heron]

Kinda . . .sorta . . .but no!
All the religions are created to control certain people and to aim their frustrations and doubts towards a goal that is on the best interest of the founders.
Books can be writen and their meaning "interpreted" when neede by holly men
WE invented God to fullfill our needs.
Men become free when find God and all the paths to It are left behind.
Free men do not need religion!
"God forgives always, men sometines and Nature never!"
There are people famous for their ferocity as warriors, others by the fancy art of war, young and naive people are atracted to those heros by books and today by movies . . .and all of them tell half truths.
When Mr. Bush the Old said: "There is a new World Order." he elevated himself
to the ranks of people like Alexander, Gengis Kahn, Jesus and others . . .silly old man. He though he was going to win the ellection and than go back to finish the job.
Clinton was a bump in the road for their plan (30 years old) of domination of the Middle East and control of oil.
This is about money for one side and survival for the other.
Christian bullets, financed by jew money killing muslims or whatever creed they have . . .nothing new . . .centuries old.
World dominance, it came with spices, than with cofee and sugar and other products . . .now it is oil and in the near future for water!
It seems you are convinced that the enemy is the arab world or the muslim faith . . .it is not. The enemy is within . . .
So far they played a game of warning . . .the Bush family killed half of a holocaust in the name of America, but it is really in their own interests.
The regular American Citizen is unaware of this dealings and has been scared to fall in line and support the so called Leaders of The Free World.
The soldiers are brave and deserve respect, the hands the sign their orders are the ones that need to be in constant check by the population.
Since WWII the US have been constantly at war, for one reason or another, against third world countries, Coreia, Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Iraq, Afganistan, etc.
Now they want to inspect randomly the Brazilian Nuclear program just to be sure that our intentions are real . . . can you dig it?
NObody is safe, one way or another.
I am very sorry, because I know you are good people and those trigger happy have been doctrinated since kindergarten . . .not their fault!
I fear for the future of America!
Heron

[mrford61]

mmmm
In Australia we have people that went to great lengths to escape the fear and oppression of their countries. Now they use that freedom to denounce the policies that provide that safety and freedom.

[Gyrobound]

I too don't get to involved in these types of talks but I couldn't help but add my 2 cents.

Back quite a few years ago, the Christians, in the name of God, were having their crusades and doing quite a bit of damage to the Moslem world and anyone else that didn't "Believe" the way they did. Again, in the name of God. Innocent people were killed because they didn't conform to the Christian way of life. This is the way these people view us in the US. We are all Christians and we just go in and take over like we always do and try to convert them to our way of thinking. No, we are not all Christians just like they are not all Moslems. No wonder the Arab world might be a little upset in the way we Americans do business. If Russia were to come over to the US and try and convert us all to Communism would we stand by and let them do it? No we would fight to the last man, women, and child to protect our "Freedom". So in the name of Freedom and Homeland Security, we go and invade other countries to rid them of terrorist before they can attack us again. If Canada said the United States is harboring people that were coming across the boarder and doing things to them would we stand by and let them send their armies into the US to get them before they did it again?

I'm not saying I condone what they are doing or what they stand for but just think of it from their shoes (Sandals) for a little bit. Yes there are a lot of fanatics that are causing the problems and we did take a lot of them out but we also killed a lot of innocent civilians as well and we as a nation don't like to have our civilians killed either and we usually take action when they do. We too in the US have our share of Fanatics as well. I think if we did a little more culling in our own land we might be better off instead of looking elsewhere to pick our fights.

Anyway, lets not jump and Nuke them all over a few bad apples. Besides the fallout would sooner or later reach us too. As I was told when I was little, "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks". When we can say we are perfect than we can judge others. We haven't reached that point yet.

Scott Dutra

[Screw]

Screw-In

Mrford61,

"Similar to the origins of the false Trinity doctrine, Islam's origins have been traced back by scholars to the ancient fertility religion of the worship of the moon god which was always the dominant religion of Arabia. The moon god was worshipped by praying toward Mecca several times a day, making an annual pilgrimage to the Kabah which was a temple of the moon god, running around the Kabah seven times, caressing an idol of a black stone set in the wall of the Kabah, running between two hills, making animal sacrifices, gathering on Fridays for prayers, giving alms to the poor, etc.. These were pagan rites practiced by the Arabs long before Muhammad was born."

Screw-Out

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

When I was living in Saudi Arabia I found some books on Islam to read.

One of the teachings is that if you have sex with a woman during the Haj you must either fast for xx days or slaughter a sheep.

I have wondered if you have sex with a sheep during the Haj what would you have to do?

Chuck E.

[Chuck Irby]

I know that this doesn't belong here, but Chuck E. started this nonsense.

While riding one day, a cowboy met an Indian riding along with a dog and a sheep and began a conversation.
Cowboy: "Hey, nice dog you got there. Mind if I speak to him?"
Indian: "Dog no talk."
Cowboy: "Hey dog, how's it going?"
Dog: "Doin' good."
Indian is shocked...
Cowboy: "Is this Indian your owner?" pointing at the Indian.
Dog: "Yep"
Cowboy: "How does he treat you?"
Dog: "Real good. He lets me run free twice a day, feeds me great food, and takes me to the lake once a week to play."
Indian has a look of total disbelief.
Cowboy: "Mind if I talk to your horse?"
Indian: "Horse no talk."
Cowboy: "Hey horse, how are you ?"
Horse: "Good."
Cowboy: "Is this your owner? " pointing at Indian
Horse: "Yep"
Cowboy: "How's he treat you?"
Horse: "Pretty good, thanks for asking. He rides me regularly, brushes me down often, and keeps me under a tree to protect me from the rain .."
Indian stares in utter amazement.
Cowboy: "Mind if I talk to your sheep?"
Indian: " Sheep is a liar."

[The Rock]

Heron,

You should fear for the future of America. Because if we collapse, and we will if enough people in our country begin to think like you, who will be left to prop up the corrupt political system and finance the bankrupt economy of Brazil?

Mark,

Please accept my apology for not specifically including our great allies including those from Oz in the effort to free the world from the tyranny of Hitler and Tojo.

[rfonseca]

If we are going to start insulting people and countries, please let me know to abandon this forum.

[birdy]

Chuck E.,your begin'n to grow on me,I like you point of view on life.Be sure to look us up if your ever in this part of the world,I'v always got a supply of good rum.
Reckon we could solve the worlds problems in one day.

Good gag Chuck I.

[mrford61]

Screw-In

Mrford61,

"Similar to the origins of the false Trinity doctrine, Islam's origins have been traced back by scholars to the ancient fertility religion of the worship of the moon god which was always the dominant religion of Arabia. The moon god was worshipped by praying toward Mecca several times a day, making an annual pilgrimage to the Kabah which was a temple of the moon god, running around the Kabah seven times, caressing an idol of a black stone set in the wall of the Kabah, running between two hills, making animal sacrifices, gathering on Fridays for prayers, giving alms to the poor, etc.. These were pagan rites practiced by the Arabs long before Muhammad was born."

Screw-Out

Yep John, again I have gobbed off without fully thinking through or researching what I was saying. Apologies.

I believe that the "Koran" was only written.. or revealed? in about 600 AD.

[Hognose]

Just a couple of words from someone who knows war in general, and this war in particular.

Humans fight wars for many reasons. Sometimes it's because one guy was a jerk: in Paraguay in 1864 there was a guy named Lopez who was egged on by his mistress to be the Napoleon of South America. Unfortunately for him the only common ground he had with Bonaparte, is that he was short and liked snazzy uniforms. Anyway he managed to get Paraguay in a war not only with Brazil (which would be, let me see, like Luxemburg attacking Germany) but with Argentina, and Uruguay. The only Paraguayan neighbor state not in the fight was Bolivia. Needless to say the poor Paraguayans got their asses kicked for a war that ended as soon as Lopez died in 1870. 85% of the male population of Paraguay died, and almost all the full-blooded Guarani indians that had made up much of the nation's population. Brazilian soldiers actually were kept on occupation duty so that they could knock up the Paraguayan widows... I guess they got a better reception than we have had in Iraq.

But the war that is started by one nutcase for his own reasons, and that won't survive his death, is fairly exceptional. More commonly wars stem from an irreconciliable conflict of national interests. But sometimes they are racial, or religious in character.

When a war is caused by such deep human-identity factors as race, language, or religion, there are only three possible outcomes.

1) One side will annihilate the other. This is carthage-level annihilation, folks.

2) One side will defeat the other decisively, and over time the two groups will assimilate into one.

3) the war will reach a state of equilibrium at a level of violence that is tacitly acceptable to all.

the most common outcome for a racial or religious war, historically, is #3 above.

We may not think of this as a religious war, but (at the risk of a beating with the too-obvious stick) our adversaries most definitely do.

cheers

-=K=-

[scottessex]

But just like Pearl Harbor, They brought this war to us. They drew first blood. If we don't take care of the whackos, they will be killing our children and be on our doorstep. Remember when no aircraft flew for DAYS!
we can't let these fanatics change our way of life. I don't know what the answer is, God be with our troops!

[Heron]

Well . . .this is good!!
From bottom and up:
Do you really believe that? They attacked first? who did? and you also believe in SAnta Claus.
Hognose:
not quite . . .Paraguay was at that time a growing country in farming land especially cotton, by the jesuits ( big discussion here) and the free labor of indians The Guarani and other smaller nations like the Terenas still in Brazil.
The system was communist like, nobody owned anything and everyone profited from it, you can see part of it with the movie The Mission.
They got so good that start bottering the all powerfull England, also some Marquis in Portugal and Spain got in to fighting and the Vatican had to interfere,
They order the Jesuits to stop and as they refused troops were sent to destroy them, that war was financed and coached by England and it was e genocide, men, women and children destroyed in great numbers by the Coalision (funny uh?) Brasil, Argentina and Uruguay it was called the Triple Alliance War.
Spain got the land, England got the market and we got some medals and the shame to carry for eternity, bunch of corwards my country and all . . .
In Brasil, another colonel doing the same, was assassinated and his cotton factory trown in the River San Francisco, thus creating a regional sayin "Shot the man to kill the factory"
After England lost its power the US took over and Brazil now belongs to our great Brother from the NOrth and just last month we could brake at te WTO the barriers for selling cotton. AS another bit of info: Marijuana was banned along with Hemp, that was taking market away from cotton, they belong to the same family CAnnabis and created a huge undergronud market that still makes money for the police and the politicians.
LIberate the home growing and that traffic is all but gone.
If America collapses it will be a pitty, because we as mankind never were this close of something really good, the Spirit or America, that as been raped by this monke we let by in to the White house and the people that pull the strings that makes him move.
Nucular my white skinny butt!
And speaking of corruption .. . how much of this 87 billlion dollars you think Mr. Halliburton will get and share with that gang?
Thanks
Heron
almost forgot . . .the jokes are great, thanks again :D

[Chuck Irby]

Heron,

I have to hand it to you my friend. You come across as very well read, and very intelligent. I consider myself far more knowledgeable than the average bear when it comes to the corruption among those in office in the U. S., and those who are in actual control. You, it seems, know more about what is really going on in this country than probably 98%, or more, of the citizens.

[Vance]

Heron, Perhaps you are underestimating the people in this country. We might just have a little judgement. We might know something about history. It might be that you are not in posession of all the information. It might be that we are doing something because we feel that it is the best thing to do under the circumstances. It might be that we are not so poor that everything we do is for some corrupt proffit. It might be that the answer to what is best for this country is not simple. Perhaps we use good judgement when we elect people with a different point of view than you have to represent us.

Always we can look back and see that we could have done it better. Somehow it has worked out anyway and I am grateful for that. I am not comfortable when someone diminishes the people of this country or what this country has done. I beleive that overall the world gets better every day and I beleive that the United States of America has something to do with it.

I would be grateful if you would not diminish my country or the people in it with your propaganda. I beleive that most of the people on this forum are operating on a higher plane than that. Thank you, Vance

[Heron]

Can we say our country? I have been here for 20 years and I work here and pay taxes here, never sent a dime to Brazil. Fool? you bet . . .I am the last of the mohicans!
My other country is not perfect either, they do lots of crap in the name of freedom and democracy. We are the second largest debt in the world just second to the US, not bad for a third world country hu?
Crime is rampant, infant deats appalling and so on and so forth, but we are not bragging about been the leaders of the free world and killing people for money and making wars as laboratories for new weapons.
I've got two friends here both Viet Veterans and they tell me hair rising histories of abuse and bad stuff.
The patron of the Braziliam army is the Duque of Caxias, good soldier, did his job well, Paraguay still strugles today . . .I hope he died with no remorse for what hes done.
Does this represent America, or Brazil? Hell no! I know you . . .you are good! (most)
Are your leaders hypocrits? A lot, but you can vote'm out of office and change
Get to the books, those not censored or directed to throw sand in you eyes an then get to vote.
I call it has I see it, and this is my position today and can be changed with new facts and info . . .I do not lie!
Do not feel bad, I love you country too! I Have a choice and I am still here.
Heron

[Vance]

Heron, I beleive that many of the people in this country are able to filter out most of the propaganda they encounter. I beleive that you have not been entirely sucessfull at that.

I beleive that I have a fairly clear picture of history. I, like you, am bicultural and I see that as an advantage in filtering out the reality of events that I didn't witness.

I beleive that George has flaws. I voted against Al, not for George. I find it easy to underestimate George. I beleive that when the towers came down the conflict was escalated. I don't care for many of the changes in this country since then. I will not like it if we become more like the people who brought down the towers. I am certain that the conflict could be prosicuted more effectivly. I don't have the answers on how to do that so in the mean time I will support our actions and our President. Things are going much better than I expected and I think they would go better still if the country was less publicly divided. I don't think that George does everything for some corrupt reason and I don't beleive that everything that I don't like is his fault.

Capitalisim has worked for me and I support it! This country has worked for me and I support it! It would seem that it works for you and I don't understand why you diminish it.

I beleive that you would find benifit in looking for the good in current events. I beleive that you would find value in reconizing that the world is not simple and neither are the people in it. They may have prosesed the information more correctly and inteligently than you think. Thank You, Vance

[Chuck Irby]

Vance, you just touched on one of the biggest problems we have in this country. You didn't vote for the best candidate. Instead, you voted for the lessor of the major party evils. As long as you, and the majority of the population, do that, we will always have evil people in office.

[Heron]

You keep saying that I diminish the US because I do not agree with some of the directions the former and actual leaders took? How so?
Maybe I am wrong or got bad info, but that's the way I see it, and I do not see you saying the other members that disagree with the same positions that they are diminishing their own country. Funny standards . . .
The very day I get fed up I will leave immediatly!
Glad you are that people like me are not on the other side . . .
The all powerfull Alqaeda, big and organized, well funded, could not strike another blow in 3 years?BS
If I go against you, the first strike will be a diversion to draw you out, and then . . .
Try to find out why the russians invaded the Afganistan and why Bin Laden turned against the US.There is a clear chain of events and a path to follow and all ends in the Iraqui oil wells. SAdam Hussein changed collors and the plan went south, thus the 2 wars that supposed to be only one.
Do not be naive, they do not care about few million dead, they care about results.
Are they right to go terrorist? I don't think so. do they have another choice? NO
Do you think they can harm us? You have no idea how many ways . . .
A fairly educated man can do tremendous harm and he does not necessarily have to use a turbant, it could be blond and blue eyes, money can buy lots of people.
YOu are loosing big time right now, massive invasion from the south, heavy losses in international markets, the farmers are going to have tough times ahead.
Even if the terrorists stop, the damage is done at another level, no one thrusts this country anymore, and all the help Mr Bush Jr. gave to Brazil by making mistakes do not please me, people are going to suffer and some people I love very much are involved.
Time to regroup, recognize the mistakes and try the best do fix them.
For long time the terrorists in Europe did their job without any clamor from this country, it was the Cold War and it was in our best interest, so lets help them, lets recruit the worst of the worst to work for us, after the success we clean tha house.
AS for the fanatics, there always be someone to keep the fire.
There is a very successful terrorist in the Bible and he is a hero!
Used assassinations, biological warfare, and freed his people from the tirants and enslavers . . .do you know who he is? Of course the history was a little bit different.
Too many centuries of mistakes, to many years to fix them.
Heron

[Heron]

Good starting point for research and meditation
http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/mideast.htm#3
after having some toughts imagine someone doing this to your land . . .
You are going to nuke'm till they glow! MInd not their names . . .
Heron

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

We are getting off topic again.

So here is my opinion...again.

If we nuke the next group of religious bastards that want to commit suicide trying to kill all us infidels that would be one less threat to our country. ( I consider Canada and the USA to be one country in this issue.)

Chuck

[Chuck Irby]

But Chuck, it ain't gonna happen. "The powers that be" want it the way it is.

[BUD ONEAL]

Mike, Chuck and Birdy,
I agree,One well placed nutron will take care of all thier woes.
Bud

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Except if we used a dirty nuke on their holy city it would keep them out for a long time until the radiation activity went down.

Hell we could stroke all our hand wringing do gooders in society by giving them say 72 hours to get out before we turn it into glass.

See at heart I'm just a nice guy. :D

Chuck E.

[Vance]

Heron, I am unable to understand what your response has to do with what I posted. I do not keep saying that you diminish the United States of America because you disagree with positions our leaders have taken. I have been very specific about what I find diminishing. It is you position that if only we knew as much as you we would come to the same conclusions and that we are not able to tell reality from propaganda. If I was a terrorist I would be gratefull for your support. I would beleive that the United States of America was week in their convictions and if I just did a little more damage they would stop trying to stop me and allow me to either convert or kill US citizens. I am puzzeled that you don't see the conection.

When I was a child I quickly learned how easy it was to criticize. As I learned more I realized that finding the good took a litle more thinking, but had a lot more value. I don't see much value in your list of man's bad behavior. There is certainly nothing there that I am not aware of.

I believe that things are going very well and we are making progress. I would expect to have more attacks and I am amazed that we have not had more in this country so far. Progress is the operative word here.

Hi Chuck, I am proud to participate in our political process. I love how well it works. I am gratefull that we have a choice even though it may not be my ideal candidate. The diversity of thought in this country is part of what makes it great. I don't beleive that enough people think the way I do to elect my ideal candidate and even if they were elected the oposition would stop them from doing much of what I beleive to be good. This country keeps working well inspite of them not doing it my way. Even though I disigree with many of George's ideas I don't know who would do a better job. I beleive that things would be better if we were all less devisive and worked for a common good, but that seems to run against human nature. I love this country just the way it is! Thank You, Vance

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Hey, Vance:

I also am amazed at how resiliant the core of our society really is in spite of the social engineering that has becomed entrenched in our schools....and in a lot of our media.

I look at them as the enemy within, just as dangerous or maybe even more dangerous than Osamas ilk........

I find it repulsive that christianity is being attacked yet every other beliefe system is supported, who in hell were the founders of this country?

By the way I am not a christian, I am an agnostic, however I do respect any believer as long as they are sincere.

I also consider myself as an American even though I am living in Canada, and I am proud of it.

Chuck E

[Vance]

Hi Chuck E, I am gratefull that you got my point.

The last time I looked at a map, Canada was located in North America. It is nice that some of our neighbors to the north are alighned with my point of view. Thank You, Vance

[The Rock]

Vance,

Excellent posts. You obviously have a great understanding of the complexities of American society, politics, and culture. You are a shining example of how immigration has continued to fuel freedom in this country.

A recent study revealed that an individual is 5 times more likely to become a millionaire in the US if he/she was born outside of the country (assuming the money didn't come from inheritance). Why? Because those who spent their formative years without economic or political freedoms have a real appreciation for the opportunities offered in the US. Too many native born citizens in the US are consumed with their own supposed rights, and how they have been wronged, to recognize the opportunities that exist if they would just apply themselves.

The US has thrived on political discourse throughout its history (although it can sometimes be an ugly process). Unfortunately, we no longer debate the policies and programs of our political candidates on a rational basis. When one side can no longer defend its positions in debate, it reverts to the politics of personal destruction. They spin the issues so that the opposition appears to be lying, is untrustworthy, stupid, or involved in some sinister conspiracy to rape the world. All of this to politically influence the people looking for a simple answer to complex problems. Heron, it appears, has gotten himself ensnared in the conspiracy theories propagated by those who want to radically alter our political and economic systems, but know that the programs they advocate cannot stand on their own merits without accentuating the negatives in our society.

[Vance]

Hi Cliff, Thank you for the kind words.
I did not mean to suggest that I was an immigrant, only that I was bicultural. My grandfather was the tribe historian for the Narragansett that lived in Martha's Vinyard. We were just down the road from the Pilgrams and we didn't have a good working relationship. (They burned our village to the ground with the people inside because all red men looked the same to them and they mistook us for another tribe). He had many stories about the politics involved in forming this nation and I'm afraid that it hasn't changed much. Their has always been a problem with focusing on the isues and staying united. Thats why the natives lost. As bad as the white europeans were a politics we were worse. It sure wasn't those goofy guns. We were part of the Algonquin nation, but we didn't comunicate with our neighbors well.

My mother always taught me to act like a white european becase that is where the powerbase is.

There is an advantage in having another culture to measure the efectiveness of a paticular cultural perspective. I find it most helpfull when it is time to seperate cultural slant from reality. It makes me more aware of propaganda in history. For instance, did you know that Thanksgiving was made up by Abe Lincoln to diminish the south and that it was actualy a war consel against the Narragansett? Think about how silly it sounds to invite a bunch of savages over for dinner when you don't have enough food and you beleive that God cleared the native people from the land because you deserved it more.

I love this country for what it is and I am gratefull to be here. I don't find much value in focusing on the bad, past or present other than to learn what not to do. Thank You, Vance

[Chuck Irby]

Vance,

Please understand that, for the most part, I agree with you, especially about capitalism and this being a great country.

Most of us, myself included, have been guilty of voting for the lessor of the evils throughout our entire adult lives. I would not even consider not voting and have been for over forty years now. However, if we voters don't change and start voting for the best candidate, even if he or she is a third party candidate, then this country will continue on it's downhill path.

There are far too many who would like to see the government continue to grow. This, in itself, will cause people like you and me to have less and less as the government gets bigger and bigger. The more money they print to support their big spending, the less it's worth. The two major parties both want bigger government. Neither are conservative.

So why do we continue to support the two major parties? If we continue in our thinking that to vote for a third party candidate is a wasted vote, then we are playing right into the hands of the people who are really in control, for they couldn't care less if a Democrat or a Republican is in office, for they control both.

[The Rock]

Vance,

You have a fascinating history. It is amazing that you have kept such a balanced perspective of Western European culture in the US given your family background.

By the way, one of my ancestors was in America prior to the landing of the Puritans - Plymouth :D

[Vance]

Hi Chuck, I agree, it would be great if we had better choices and that is why I try to work inside the Republican party. It is very frustrating to try to balance my thoughts against the ability to win an election. Candidates have to move to the center in order to win. Most voters are looking for the best deal for them and they don't think about the long term down side of goverment growth. I havent figured out how to change that point of view.

In California we have Arnold for a Governor and he seems to be doing a great job. I voted for Tom because his views were more aligned with mine. Arnold is able to generate press and the politicians are afraid of him because he can let people know what is realy going on. I wouldn't have thought of the benefit of that if I hadn't seen it. Ronald seemed to have that same special gift and made changes beyond my wildest expectations.

I think that the way to make goverment better is to get more involved. It doesn't cost a lot of money and it feels good. The more people that are involved the better it will get. It is a lack of information that causes people to vote badly. Remember this is your country and you can make a difference.

Hi Cliff, Thank you, but remember I'm three quarters white european. The point was that being bi cultural helps people to sift through the information.

Today is where we live and lets make today as good as it can be. Many people use history to support untenable positions. We can't change history, we can make today better.

I think it is wonderful that we can fly in machines that we are have had a lot of personal involvement in and that is part of what makes this comunity so special. They are individuals who have passion and an above average ability to do critical thinking. I am proud to stand with them.

The point of this thread was to fantisize about seeking vengance against the inhumanity that was witnessed on the video. It is hard for us to grasp what makes people act this way and I don't know anyone who thinks it is ok. I find pleasure in the thought of wiping out the society that produce these people. Historicaly this hasan't worked out and this is probably not the right thing to do. But it is still fun to think about. Thank You, Vance

[Heron]

I will never call the massacre of natives an American venture, USA came after that and still not ready, the integration of Natives, Africans and Immigrants with the core white european has not been acomplished yet.
I think this is a beatiful land and many amazing things happened here, the ideals brought forth by the people that live in America are great, the nations created within this space are among the best ever. Doubts? NOne . . .
If I had the power I woul ban all religions from Abraham till they fix their position on God and separate from State, purging their books from world dominance.
I do believe in God and have seen His work, I do not think the Pope is His representative in this planet, I do not think the jews are the chosen people and the teachings of Moahmed belong to a very small part of Middle East, they are not the best religion to follow.
Also I think the interference of the US in any country is unaceptable, it has inherited from the Brits that made horrendous mistakes and reshaping the world and destroying many cultures just to impose their own culture.
NOt long ago our president was respected, loved and people come out just to see him and applaude the US.
Now he needs to be guarded, protected and people come out to throw eggs at him if they can. The world asked, begged and suplicated and he was firm in course to invade Iraq, lying to all with a hidden agenda.
Is it fair to hate the US? no it is not . . .those who were hurt by it have a case on carrying revenge? They do and if someone coach them and doctrinated them they will try.
Conspiracy theory? I have my own thank you!
CAn we do better than this? Of course! Will we? Not today! You have been itching to release your demons and press that button . . .
I am only talking to you because you are people I care for, and if you want I just watch and quiet.
I hope some or my words have the effect of starting more reseach on subjects and looking for the thruth. In any case to posses weapons of mass destruction it is a crime against mankind and this country is not the best to have this right. It has used it, sold it, had people use it and disseminated technology that could greatly harm life.
To me the great power of the US resides with their people and the resolve to join and help each other in any cause and this has been made available to many countries and situations.
NOw you are going to jump and say that other people did it too and blah blah . . .they were all wrong!
Mankind went long ways to be what it is today and it time to reduce gun power and increase mind power. The common enemy is winning on all of us. pollutions and enviromental degradation.
By switching your vehicles to alternative fuels, you can help stop this nonsense, in Brazil we have dual, tri and tetra fuel vehicles, some can take alchool, gas and diesel in the same tank.
Bring your boys home . . .this is another unjustified war and for ill pourposes, you are setting the stage for Armaggedon, lets not acomplish the prophecies and let people live their lives as they wish. This would not be happening if they did not have oil, or if they gave the US the rights to explore it at will.
Enough crusades, there is no Holly Grail! No more medals for youngsters not present.
The Us does not need to be the only world power, its a lost game already. Consider China, India the biggest democracy, Brazil the 5th spoken language and all that is growing around you.
Lets brake with the past and live a better future.
I do love this country and I am helping it!
Heron

[Heron]

Vance that was a good post! Thank you.
I can understand why they do it and how they use it, we did the same but hid it!
that is a propaganda move, they beheaded hundreds of themselves and we just starting to know about it.
It is a strange costume I admit.
They are a very different people.
Heron

[Vance]

Thank you Heron, I wrote this before I read your last post. This is directed at your previous post. You have valadated my position that you have a fine mind. Thank You, Vance

Hi Heron, I think that you need to get your history and timing of the United States of America cleaned up. When I want to tell myself a lie, I, like you, try to make things complicated and I misinterpet events. There is no value in it. Keep it simple and clear.

So far you havent done well at predicting my behavior or reading my mind. Ditto for this country. Historicaly, lumping large, diverse groups together hasn't worked. I think you have a fine mind and I beleive that you would benifit by using it to keep it simple.

Isolation hasn't worked for most countries because it is not practical.

Thank you for showing people your true position. It gives us more to work with.
Vance