Tip Rocket Pre-Rotation

[PeroxidePropuls]

I have developed a pre-rotation system, using peroxide rockets at the rotor tips. It is very powerful. At the first test the rotor was spinning up to 314 rpm in 45 seconds, when the autogyro lifted. I did not need to use the full power.
There is no torque that want to twist the autogyro.

I am appreciating any comments and advise from the members of this forum for the further development and testing.

I have one question that I am especially interested to get your opinion: -It is possible to spin up the rotor with this system until the gyro takes off! You can convince yourselves about that if you take a look on the movie-file on my website. If I keep the rockets running for some more time and accelerate to forward flying speed with the propeller. Would I than do a controllable vertical take-off and be able to shut off the rockets after the take-off -or not?

Remember: One should not compare with jump start I think, because I do not need to go to 0 degree pitch to spinn up the rotor and I can run the rockets and the propeller simultaniously.

You can read about my system on my website: www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/22

[Brent_Brown]

Ok you’re over here now. If you set the blade pitch for gyro flight you will see just how much rotor speed is needed to feel like it wants to life off. I’m not sure it will, but I have loaded my blades pulling out of a hard diving bank and got some vertical life when I leveled off with the rotor speed above the needed RPM. But I had forward speed all ready and no rotor tech to tell how high they were above flight RPM. Lets say you can get the blades to 400 RRPM this is over flight RRPM this should make a no roll takeoff or very, very short one possible. The thing about your set up is no torque to the mast so it is safe to just take off as we do now no special training needed or unfamiliar actions acting on the gyro.

[Brent_Brown]

accelerate to forward flying speed with the propeller. Would I than do a controllable vertical take-off and be able to shut off the rockets after the take-off -or not?

It would be controllable and if you accelerate to flying speed no rockert are needed at that time.

My question is will it takeoff vertical with the blades at a gyro blade pitch setting say 1.5 degrees? anyone from the knowing care to jump in.

[quadrirotor]

Super, the noise is not so bad!
this device seems very simple. it would be very interesting to have mechanical details!What's the price for a spin off?
very promising! go ahead!

[Brent_Brown]

The next step is a real flight test. I do not plan to change the blade pitch. It is fixed at 4 degrees and it is supposed to be like that when flying the conventional way with small autogyros like the swedish Bumble Bee (Humlan in Swedish). What pitch angle are you used to see?

Now can the bee guys tell me what setting you use on the ultra light gyros. 4 degrees sounds high to me but I'm not going to change my blades to test it.

I know guys that fly in the 8000 feet or higher might go with more pitch but I don't know if it is that high.

Any help O great wise one?

[Brent_Brown]

Chuck Beaty can you help me with this blade pitch thing. Can a gyro take off vertically with a 1.5 degree setting. lets use a base gyro 600 pound gross weight, 23" Fleck blades. that is what it looks like he is using.
And how will the gyro fly with a 4 degree setting. I think it will just climb more than more forward and RRPM will be low. Just my guess. I don't know.

[quadrirotor]

Did you try to use the exhaust gas (through a Jacob Brake Valve) of an internal combustion engine to propelle your rotor? may be a problem of temperature but this would be a very elegant solution with no more (may be less) weight than the prerotators used today!... If the problem of temperature is too overwhelming, one cylinder of the engine could be used as a compressor by shuting down the gas injector...(may be one in two strokes or something like that...to be figured out!...).

In the "modern gyroplane design" of Martin Hollman, the pitch angle of the blades is 4 degrees...

the Djinn helo (1953) with pressurized tips driven...more than one hundred built, some are still flying...a great technical success!

http://www.russian.ee/~star/vertigo/snias_jinn-r.html

[PeroxidePropuls]

I have not tried to drive the tip rockets with exhaust gas from the propeller engine as you propose, but I made something not so different I think: -I were running the rockets nozzles with compressed nitrogen gas from a bottle. I did this pre-test as a preparation before the "real" test with hydrogen peroxide.You find the mpg-file showing the pre-test here:
www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/20
The rotor spinned up to 150 rpm.

[quadrirotor]

I am willing to prerotate the rotor with some kind of compressed gaz but not with highly expensive and dangerous rockets...you have my advice!...

[PeroxidePropuls]

I am willing to prerotate the rotor with some kind of compressed gaz but not with highly expensive and dangerous rockets...you have my advice!...

I can not agree that HP rockets are dangerous. Why do you think that? They are the safest rockets or jets around. No combustion is taking place, just decomposition to steam and oxygen gas in contact with the silver screens in the very tiny rockets. It is to compare with a small steam generator.

The liquid HP can not accumulate in any way. It would escape through the rocket nozzle. The rocket is like an open pipe.

When it comes to your opinion regarding cost I also disagree. I expect the cost for the system not be any higher than other pre-rotation systems. The differece is that tip rockets have so much better performance. Can you tell me a comparable system which allow for a vertical take-off?

The only thing that may be a hurdle is the price of the 80% HP fuel. I need to sell it for around 10 USD/liter to cover my costs when I introduce it. That would be around 25 USD/VTO, but you don´t need to spinn up the rotor until the gyro takes off vertically every time you fly. I also expect to be able to lower the price for HP when the sales picks up. At last: -As you said yourself. If you dont like HP, you can run the same tip rocket system with compressed gas and spinn up the rotor to 150 rpm.

[quadrirotor]

cost for 2 to 3 liters HP for a spin off = i don't know (30$ to 300$ depending on a creative comptability...); having 50bars of pressure behind my head or under my balls, is not an happy perspective...150 rpm for compressed gas is only the limitation of your nitrogen pressureXdebit bottle...with a compressor, you fix the limits you need...and no need of a rocket---> you need an aerodynamic and optimised nozzle...

[PeroxidePropuls]

OK Andre´,
It seems that I cant convince you, but the same type of bottle that I have is used to store oxygen gas at around 150 bars onboard trafic airplanes.
I am not so sure if it is any more dangerous to go near a pressure tested and approved gas bottle equipped with a safety valve, than to fly an autogyro?

[quadrirotor]

To fly a pressurized bottle on a gyro is even more dangerous!...

[PeroxidePropuls]

Don´t pick up diving André, because I bileive those guys have a bottle like mine on their back

[quadrirotor]

OK you won!...Just make it! fly it! and good luck!...

[The Rock]

Erik,

I am surprised that you haven't had more positive reaction on this thread to your tests with the rocket propulsion system for pre-rotation. I applaud your efforts, and understand that it is innovative thinking like yours, combined with sound engineering and thorough testing that will enhance our sport.

Although I am new to gyros, I do feel qualified to comment on aircraft development since I have been an owner of an aircraft kit manufacturing business, and another business that recertified and manufactured a two-place training aircraft under FAA standards. Your approach seems sensible and the technologically viable. GO FOR IT! And, keep us informed of your progress.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Thank you to "The Rock" for your appreciating reply and to Brent and André for stimulating discussions.
I will continue the development and test work. We plan to make a take-off with the system at the same time as the glider is towed after a car, in the middle of June. I will keep you informed on my website

[C. Beaty]

There is a long history of hydrogen peroxide tip jet propulsion.

Kellet demonstrated a HP powered helicopter (Stable Mable) in the 1950s, a government funded project. There might be some data on the NACA server.

A company in Texas revived the project in the 1970s; a company called Minijet or something like that. I knew the test pilot, Bob Farmer, a former Florida gyro builder with a design called Youmercopter.

There was a long discussion of HP tip jet propulsion on Norm’s forum. An individual in Mexico had been using HP jets for drag racing go carts and suggested tip jets for gyros. He had even developed equipment for distilling and concentrating the stuff. The commercially available variety has a concentration of ~60% and needs a concentration of ~90% to work in rockets.

Naval torpedoes used the steam generated from catalyzed HP to run the propulsion turbine. Crews that fueled torpedoes were properly trained and wore protective clothing.

Commercially available HP is cheap and has a wide variety of industrial uses.

Concentrated HP is fairly corrosive to human skin and almost anything will catalyze it. A drop on dry grass produces an instant fireball.

The angle of zero lift on a typical canbered rotor blade airfoil is something in the range of –2º so, yes, an angle of +1.5º would allow hovering with overspeed.

[Curran3]

Clyde,
I'm curious about why rotor blade angle of attack is lower than fixed wing. Most of the discussions I've read suggested 0.5 to 1.5 degrees positive angle of attack for rotor blades. I've dutifuly set my blades to that but always wondered why a higher angle wouldn't work better. Has there been any systematic testing that your aware of?
Thanks,
Curran in Jacksonville, FL

[PeroxidePropuls]

Clyde,
The tip rocket projects you mention were helicopter projects. Because of the high fuel consumption the helicopters did have an operating range of only around 15 minutes. No wonder they were no success!

Do you have a clue why so few have concidered tip rockets for autogyros, where one only need the rockets for the vertical take off (less than a minute) and possibly a short period of hoovering?
Except for my own project I only know one other: This project was Igor Bensen who made triels with ram jets on an autogyro. The ram jets were big and heavy and did never work to Mr. Bensens satisfaction.

You are right that the military and the space guys are using 90% HP. I am using 80% HP. Not equally powerful -but high enough for this application and the rockets become less noisy.

It aces when getting HP on the skinn. I have experienced this many times over the years. Fortunately it does not etch and the ace does not last for more than about an hour. There is no damage to the skinn -as it would have been if it was an acid or caustic - but I still recommend one should wear gloves when filling the tank.

[C. Beaty]

Curran, best lift/drag of any rotor occurs when the ratio of forward speed is about 35% of rotor tip speed. That produces the best tradeoff between high speed drag on the advancing blade and stall on the retreating blade.

But a gyro won’t go much faster than 35% of tip speed. If you adjust your blade pitch so that 20 mph is 35% of tip speed, the stick will be jam up against the forward stop at 30 mph.

Most rotors are adjusted so the rotor tip speed is about 400 fps which allows a top speed of ~100 mph.

Flat bottom blades such as Rotordynes will autorotate at quite high pitch settings but you wouldn’t like flying 15 mph with the stick up against the forward stop.

A flat pitch setting that causes the rotor to spin much is excess of 400 fps throws away a lot of power.

This stuff is well known and documented data is on the NACA web site at:

http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1937/naca-report-552.pdf

That’s the UK mirror site. The US server is dead at the moment.

[C. Beaty]

I’m not trying to rain on your parade, Erik. H2O2 rockets might very well be a useful accessory for a gyro.

But there are practical as well as technical problems. Concentrated HP can’t be transported by commercial carriers in this country; it being deemed a hazardous material. Users would have to buy the less concentrated form and distill it themselves.

Then there’s the problem of rotating seals going up through the rotorhead. It wouldn’t be nice to develop a leak and take a HP bath.

Tip jet propulsion has much appeal but not many technically competent people have gotten interested in it for gyro applications. Gyro design and manufacturing is mostly a cut and try business.

Why not water jet propulsion? As you know, F = MA. An engine driven high pressure pump might allow short hovering time. If it didn’t fly, you could use it for a lawn sprinkler.

[David_Hill]

Chuck,
Has anyone done any R&D using compressed air to pre-rotate the blades? Could you use a similar setup as HP to get the air to the blades, but with the compressor on the trailer, with a quick-release mechanism off the back of the keel?

David Hill
Vancouver, WA USA

[C. Beaty]

Jump takeoff via compressed nitrogen has been done, David.

Ryan Aircraft, builder of the target drone that used the Mac engine, fitted one of their drones with a rotor and jumped with the assistance of a gang of 5 nitrogen bottles pressurized at 5,000 psi. Obviously, the bottles were disconnected just before the jump.

If your library has Janes all the Worlds Aircraft from the 1960s or so, you can find more details than I can remember.

The efficiency of any form of tip jet propulsion is low because power delivered is equal to thrust x velocity. At zero velocity, efficiency is zero and increases as tip speed increases.

The mass of air is small and either high volume at low pressure or low volume at high pressure is required. The efficiency is better at high volume and low pressure.

There has been at least one operational helicopter that used the so-called cold cycle; the French Dijon (sp?). It had a turbine engine with an oversized compressor that supplied compressed air to tip jets. Cold inasmuch as there was no fire at the tips but air bled off a compressor isn’t exactly cold.

Another jump takeoff scheme that has been proposed is to fit a trailer, the launch pad, with an engine that drives the rotor via a quick disconnect fitting, The gyro would be latched down to the trailer and when the rotor has reached the proper overspeed, the trigger would be pulled to unlatch the gyro and it would jump straight up.

Lots of stuff has been proposed but not much has been done.

[quadrirotor]

http://www.russian.ee/~star/vertigo/snias_jinn-r.html

[PW_Plack]

How about a refinement of current prerotators to allow reaching required RRPM, then either...

(1) Drop 200 pounds of cheap, non-toxic water ballast, or...
(2) Pull a trigger which releases a latch holding you to an airport apron tie-down?

[PeroxidePropuls]

I’m not trying to rain on your parade, Erik. H2O2 rockets might very well be a useful accessory for a gyro.

But there are practical as well as technical problems. Concentrated HP can’t be transported by commercial carriers in this country; it being deemed a hazardous material. Users would have to buy the less concentrated form and distill it themselves.
.

CB,
I am concentrating low concentrated HP myself for my development and testing of the tip rockets, because as a privat person I have failed to buy high concentrated HP. The main suppliers refuse to sell to me. They only sell -and transport on the road! - to bigger organsations (like space companies) and to the military people. So transport is only "prohibited" to small clients by the producers -not by transport authoroties.
Many thousand of tons/a of 70% HP, which is also classified similar, UN2015, is sold and transported to pulp bleaching plants.

I can supply other users with distillation equipment if necessary. The thing is I do not believe it will be necessary. Next summer or so, I would like to make an effort to import ready to use 80% HP from my own production to prospective users in US, because I believe it is possible. (This is of course under the conditions that the further testing of the tip rockets will be successful and that there is a market interest)

HP is no different than any other products classified as a hazardeous material, like acids, caustic, flamable materials like paint, and so on. Thousend of products classified as hazardeous materials are transported on the roads every day.
One need to follow the regulations of course. One of these regulations is that the carrier need to have a hazmat training course from DOT (Department of Transport) and a certificate. I can go to some of the nation wide big carriers, but I would prefer to co-operate with a smaller carrier without dollar signs in both eyes, but with a commitment to support the autogyro sport. -Please contact me if you know someone that could be a candidate carrier!
One other regulation is that one need to avoid storing and transporting hazardeous materials together with other materials. This make terminal handling difficult. Instead one need point to point transport from the harbour to depots. The users pick it up themselves at the depots. I would like to come in contact with autogyro clubs and others on this forum that could volonteer to host a depot and are willing to sell the HP to autogyro owners -

A specialist company in transport of hazmat products is guiding me in this. You find them here: www.fgc.se They have some pages in English if you click further from the home page

[PeroxidePropuls]

We have made a few vertical take-offs with the tip rockets on the gyro glider. The glider was tied to the ground with a tow rope. You can read about the test and look on a couple of movie clips on my web site: www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/23

[Brent_Brown]

Erik. I agree with the throttles for both should be together or reached by the same hand. you say The maximum rocket thrust can be lowered. With the present prototype rockets the gyro was taking off after 12 seconds, without the need of using maximum rocket thrust! (This adjustment can be done by having smaller diameter rocket nozzles. The fuel consumption will be lowered by this change.) But this statment is without the weight of a motor and gas. you are looking at about 150 more pounds depending on the motor you have. I think a fast spin up is better with the motor on it you will not need to hover around just get off the ground and go full power after you are in forward flight say 30 MPH you should be able to shut off the HP and you fly off.

Only test will find out what forward speed if any is needed to transtion the normal flight. IF it can get you to your Hight vs Forward speed you are good but if it is low of that hight you will not get to a safe forward speed before you hit the ground. Now I know you will have the RRPM over gyro speed so this will help you get that forward speed before the blade speed slows. 0 speed I need 300 feet to feel safe to land and I don't try that all the time it is a nose dive landing. I would use it as a pre-rotator and not to do VTO. With one fill of HP you will git more VSTO and it is not needed for landings, unless you have to do a ture Vert. landing and gyro do without that nicely now. Great job! can I have one?

[Vance]

Hi Erik, I am amazed at you progress. I would like to see some close up pictures of the motors. Their size and shape is very important because they are going very fast and can cause a lot of drag. Stanley Hiller had auto rotation challanges with his ram jet tip powered helicopter. It came down too fast because of the tip drag,( they called it cold drag), but the weight on the tips would allow it to land and take off again with the stored energy from the weight of the motors. They weighed 11 pounds each.

I would also like to see how you handled the fuel distributation to the rotor.

Is the is the presure bottle for fuel dilevery? Would a fuel pump work? How much peroxide did it use in the video?

Congratulations on your considerable progress!! Thank you, Vance

[PeroxidePropuls]

To Brent:
The rocket body is in two parts.The rear part with the nozzle is threaded to the front part. When evaluating huw much thrust is reasonable one can try with different rear parts, with different nozzle sizes.
I would be pleased to sell a rocket system to you Brent, but we need to find a reasonable way to make the fuel available first, -dont we? Is there a chance that any of the PRA chapters would volontear to host a fuel depot, if I imported some fuel to US from here?

To Vance: You can read more about the system in the previous project reports. The weight of the rockets is 1.3 lb/each

[Brent_Brown]

My point was why change it now we need to see what it can do with the pusher motor on it and a tank of gass.
I will look into who here in the USA sells 80% HP it has to be available here. I don't see a need to import it if it can be made here.
Now the rockets and other parts need to be a Kit. Blades and all.
I would be willing to be your HP depot if it is not available here.

[Brent_Brown]

Where can I buy (industrial strength) H2O2?

As a producer of H2O2, FMC deals primarily in full truckload quantities of bulk chemical (4,000 gallons) in concentrations of 35, 50, and 70% by weight. Through US Peroxide (which provides mini-bulk storage and dosing modules), we are able to deliver less-than-full-truckload quantities (500 - 2500 gallons) in concentrations of 35 or 50% by weight. Packaging of 35 and 50% into 55-gallon drums (and in some cases 300-gallon totes) is available from most industrial chemical distributors. Certain of these distributors (e.g., those serving the textile, food or metal finishing industries) offer product in 5-gallon or 15-gallon carboys. Smaller quantities (pint or gallon containers) of 30 or 35% H2O2 can be purchased through laboratory supply houses that handle chemical reagents. Since chemical distribution is largely a regional business, please let us know your location and requirements, and we will direct you to the appropriate source.

From this I see 70% HP didn't you say you wnted to try low HP. Would 70% work in your system as is.

[Brent_Brown]

The freight-equalized production plants are located at or near: Houston, TX; S.Charleston, WV; Mobile, AL; Columbus, MS; Memphis, TN; Vancouver, WA; Gibbons, Alberta; Becancour, Quebec: Maitland, Ontario; and Prince George, British Columbia.

South Charleston is not far % hour from me.

[PeroxidePropuls]

70% HP is working in theory only. There is just about enough heat of decomposition present to evaporate the water. This is in theory, because in practice there will be un-evaprated liquid water. The rockets will leave a plume of visible wet steam. The thrust will be low. I believe 80% is about the lowest level for stable operation. The military guys and the space guys are using 90% + concentration.

[Brent_Brown]

50% H2O2 success

We are hopefully very close to getting more 90% peroxide, but, after our many failures to make anything happen with 50% peroxide mixtures, we finally got something going.

We are using a platinum impregnated ceramic monolith catalyst from Catalytic Products International http://www.cpilink.com/ :

http://media.armadilloaerospace.com/2003_06_08/catalyst.jpg



We had been expecting platinum based catalysts to be notably poorer than silver based catalysts at room temperature, probably requiring preheating to do much of anything. Surprisingly, eye-dropper squirts of 50% peroxide react faster on this than on our silver screens. There is a good chance we will move to this style of catalyst even for 90% peroxide, because it is much lighter, and has much less pressure drop. Engine thrust to weight ratio will actually be important to us for the first time on the X-Prize vehicle.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Brent,
John Carmac, the owner of Armadillo Aerospace, is a young Texas millionaire (I believe he has made his money on computor game software) and a brilliant rocket entreprenuer. He has developed 50% HP, pre mixed with methanol to a powerful rocket fuel. I follow his work in detail and I have made test with his fuel mix. My rockets worked for 20 seconds, so I believe I am close, but I am still not ready with the development. To make this fuel work it is needed to be ignited (and maintained ?) with a glow plug. This make the system somewhat more complicated.
My prototype rockets are equipped with glow plugs, but are not used/needed when using 80% HP.

[quadrirotor]

why bother yourself with peroxide?
plug this compressor on the engine and let's go!!!!

[birdy]

Erik
At risk of stating the obviose,you'll have to be careful when transitioning from "jump" to "porp thrust". :)
Presuming you have a horisontal disc when in "jump" mode,if you apply full power[prop] to attain airspeed,you could accidently discover a new way to "push over". :rolleyes:

All the same,I hope you success in comming up with an economical,practical and reliable system. :) [I sure could benifit from such a development] :D

[Brent_Brown]

After looking at movie 2 you are lucky no one got hurt. If you keep it tied off like that I would put a stop on the rotorhead to limit the forward travel to level this will get the rope tight up and back is the only thing he could do.

[quadrirotor]

need to have a yaw control!!!!too.

[PeroxidePropuls]

As mentioned before in this thread, we have demonstrated that the tip rocket pre rotation system can lift the gyro glider vertically and it can hoover like a kite when tied to the tow rope. (Stick back and stretched rope):
www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/23

As the next step, in a couple of weeks from now, my friend Hans Krugloff and his brother have offered to test glide with the glider behind a car, to see if the gliding performance has changed or not. If this test is approved, we will move the rotor to Hans gyroplane Humlan (= Bumble Bee).

Humlan has an IVO propeller were one can adjust the pitch. The rotor blade pitch can also be adjusted. Now to my question to this forum:

When the maximum propeller power is not needed for take-off and the rotor does not need to be optimized for the standard non-vertical take-off method, could we than:

1. Increase the propeller pitch so that the gyro would be faster in forward flight?

2. Decrease the rotor pitch so that it could travel faster with less drag?

3. Finally in case of maximum success: -Install a stubb wing on the left side of the gyro to compensate for the stall of the retreating blade at high forward speed?

My vision is that if these adjustment would be doable, we had created a low cost sport version of the Fairey Rotodyne! I am not a good aerodynamic calculator though, so it would be nice if anyone of you, like Chuck Beaty, could comment on this idea.

[Brent_Brown]

Is it a in flight adjustable or ground?

If ground ajustable only I would still set it more as a climb prop. So if you get low and slow you have a better chance of getting up again in time not to hit the trees or groung if you need to abort a landing.

As I said before no one I know flys with the blades at 4 degrees if they do I wish they would say so here, I did say FLY them for you who want to quote a book. I would fly it as is them adjust to 2 degrees and see what happens.

As for blades stall speed I don't know when that will happen with your blades at 4 derees. I can say I have gone to 100 mph with a light loaded set of 28' blades in skywheel hub bar with no troubles. Chuck Beaty has posted about this before but it might have been on the old forum.

If you can read RRPM I would work to see 350 RRPM.

4 degrees might be used on a bee to keep the speed within Part 103 ultra light?

[PeroxidePropuls]

Brent,
My vision is that one can escape a tricky flight situation, like the one you discribe, by giving the rockets some peroxide.

The propeller is adjustable on the ground only. I was thinking of testing with the propeller, as it is, at the first tip rocket take-off. If this first test is proving that the take-off is smooth and requires a limited propeller thrust, we could make the adjustments I mentioned before, in the next step.

[Brent_Brown]

And with my luck all the peroxide would be gone.

[Brent_Brown]

Did you try platinum impregnated ceramic monolith catalyst with 70 % HP?
when is the next test date and get behind something before you get blade damage to your head.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Did you try platinum impregnated ceramic monolith catalyst with 70 % HP?
when is the next test date.
Question 1: Yes, but I get a gas phase boundery layer at the channel walls that prevent the further liquid peroxide reaction. A stack of screens is working much better. I need higher conc. than 70% to make it work.
Question 2: Next planned test flights are in the first half of July.

[PeroxidePropuls]

On July 3, we did some take-offs with the peroxide tip rockets, directly followed by forward gyro gliding towed with a car.
You can read about it on my website: www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/24
The transition to forward flight was smooth. Can we expect any other behaviour when we move the rockets to a propeller powered gyro, you think?

[Brent_Brown]

That looked good. and RRPM sounds good. Keep up the good work and put power on that gyro now.
Brent

[nsheryka]

looks interesting.. good luck with your research.

I was wondering about this "hollow rotor head" of yours. How do you send the fluid into and out of this rotating machine? it does not make sence to me, but obviousely has to work some how.

Please fill us in. :confused:

[PeroxidePropuls]

looks interesting.. good luck with your research.

I was wondering about this "hollow rotor head" of yours. How do you send the fluid into and out of this rotating machine? it does not make sence to me, but obviousely has to work some how.

Please fill us in. :confused:
I hope it is described in way that can be understood here: www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/15

[PeroxidePropuls]

This weekend the Swedish Rotorcraft Flying Club had their anual meeting. (Like Mentone, but much smaller).

I made a demonstration of the rotor tip rockets and I crashed! This is how it happened: -The gyro was tied with a towing rope, but the car was standing still. - Very similar to how we have made tests before and reported on my website:www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/23.

The differense this time was that the glider was standing in high grass (about 1 and a 1/2 foot high), because the air field leader did not allow me to be on the asfalt. The gyro lifted as normal from the ground after about 20 seconds. The rotor disc was leaned backwards, because we have found out that this makes the gyro more stable. The problem was that the rotor started to cut the grass behind me. The gyro started to move to the left because of the "lawn cutting force". It also started to lean, because the wheels were stuck in the grass and could not follow the left ward movement. So after a couple of seconds the rotor hit the ground on my left side -end of story! The rotor blades were completally ruined, but the rest of the gyro, like the framework, rotorhead and the rocket system were less damished.

I am still lucky, because I was not hurt , except for a scar above my eyes and the glider can be repaired I think, but it will take some time before I can report any more tests with this glider.

[darrellwittke]

I would like to offer encouragement to persevere, Erik, and should have earlier and before this mishap. I think you have a welcome addition to the sport of gyro flying with your H2o2 system. I do hope you persevere in your endeavors.

Some observations from a technically illiterate low time gyro pilot (take it for what its worth, free) are to echo Brent Brown's words. "It take's off now, put an engine on it and see how it does." From the video vertical take-off it appears (to me) that it would be more stable with an engine producing thrust and a rudder for yaw control. Now that you have to rebuild can you put the rocket system on an engined gyro?

One could argue that the towed gyro glider is actually more stable due to the horsepower available to yank the thing straight, practically speaking I doubt it is better than an engine, however. There is to much coordination needed in gyro towing, between two people, and I think if one pilot has control over everything there is less chance of screw-ups (if not too much pilot work load) and a greater safety margin with the engine powered gyro.

Secondly, are you running having trouble finding space to do testing? I wonder this from your quote "not able to use the asphalt." Also, your other video by the lake seemed like a tad bit small for the rotor disk. Only reason I mention it is a wild suggestion I have no business in making. Perhaps you could call one of the rotor or gyro manufacturers (Boyette or AAI, others) and see if they would sponsor you for space, tool use and/or living quarters for you to continue testing? Could make an interesting working vacation here in the states where we have a lot more open space, education for them and business contacts for you.

Again, sorry about the mishap. I hope things rebuild quickly for you and thanks for working on a neat addition to our gyros. Thanks for reading my meanderings...darrell

[Brent_Brown]

I am glad you are OK. I hope to see it fly again soon.

[barnstorm2]

Sorry to hear about the blades. Please don't get discouraged, we need your innovation.

[PW_Plack]

Erik, so sorry! Your videos were thrilling, if scary to watch. Don't settle for poor surfaces for your testing.

In our country, hydrogen peroxide's main use is to make women's hair blonde. If your system ever becomes popular here, the price of H2O2 will go up, and our wives and girlfriends will be angry. Don't forget to consider this important marketing issue. ;)

[PeroxidePropuls]

Thank you all for your compassion and support!
I was trying to respond to your comments already yesterday, but I became so sleepy when finally getting the chance to relax in my home so I could not concentrate. I guess this was a natural reaction to the traumatic experiance with the glider crash.
I was reading your comments though, and I felt so much better, because you made me realize I have a lot of support from the autogyro sociaty out there.

Someone of you said the rocket system really should be installed on a propeller powered gyro now, for further testing. I fully agree! The gyro is more stable whith the forward force from a propeller. Except from short take-offs, other uses could be tested, like extra power to the rotor at zero G situations and for short landings.

The Swedish Rotorcraft Flyingclub has supported me the best they can I think, but we have only a hand full of active gyro owners in this country and no manufactorers. I agree the develpment could be faster and more efficient if the much bigger resorses and network in US were involved.

If involving the autogyro sociaty in US in this project there will be a new challange to overcome though: -To arrange with a sequre supply of the hydrogen peroxide fuel on a long distance from my Swedish base. As mentioned before in this thread, the present supply is very scarce. I would like to cencentrate my efforts in this field for a while because I believe my expertese is really more in HP manufactoring and handling rather than in aviation technology.

I plan to ship one pellet or so of my rocket grade HP to US, as a pilot case to test the transport regulations in practice. According my investigations, these regulations are not very difficult to deal with, but it remains to be prooved. I need a recieving party in the other end. Does somebody in the forum has an idea who could be the buyer?

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi,
I just issued a few pictures and a report describing the accident on my website: www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/25

[darrellwittke]

Say Erik, does the purchaser of the H2o2 need to have an end use in mind? What kind of qualifications and money do they need?

Just curious, I would happily volunteer if you just need an address to ship to stateside, as I'm sure many others would. No big deal. However I am guessing you need more economical business deal.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Say Erik, does the purchaser of the H2o2 need to have an end use in mind? What kind of qualifications and money do they need?

Just curious, I would happily volunteer if you just need an address to ship to stateside, as I'm sure many others would. No big deal. However I am guessing you need more economical business deal.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

For a first "test shipment" I just need what you suggest, Darrell: -An address to ship to.

I notice you live in Montana, on a long distance from the east coast harbers, but if no other volonteers on shorter distance are showing up, I will contact you on your personal mail adress later on, because I think the other forum members will not be interested in the detailed discussions needed.

Is this OK?

[darrellwittke]

Ok with me. Be glad to help. Let's give it some time (a week?) and see if people on the east coast volunteer though.

[The Rock]

Erik,

Are you aware that hydrogen peroxide solutions in concentrations greater than 40% are forbidden for transportation on both passenger and cargo aircraft?

[PeroxidePropuls]

I am aware of this, Cliff. The planned "test shipment" is by boat. But you may suggest that HP can not be used as a fuel for an autogyro, do you? I can not imagine that the IATA codes for comercial aircraft carriers has anything to do with this. There are many materials that can´t be transported onboard an aircraft according IATA. I would not be surprised if gasoline is prohibited for comercial air transport, but it can still be used as a fuel. Anyway thank you for pointing me to the question. I will check it up.

[The Rock]

Erik,

Title 49, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 175.10(a)(1) (these are the hazardous materials regulations) states: "This subchapter (which pertains to hazardous materials being transported aboard aircraft) does not apply to: (1) Aviation fuel and oil in tanks that are in compliance with the installation provisions of 14 CFR, chapter 1". I talked to the FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) and they told me that experimental aircraft are exempt from the provisions of 14 CFR, chapter 1, and that the Designated Airworthiness Representative (DAR) will let you use Hydrogen Peroxide fuel for your experimental aircraft as long as you can demonstrate that it can be done safely.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Thank you for investigating the regulations, Cliff. As I understand it, it should be OK for anyone to start evaluating the tip rocket system on a propeller driven gyro, as soon as I can make the fuel and the mechanical components available. -Right?

[The Rock]

Erik,

My understanding is that there is no regulatory prohibition for using hydrogen peroxide rockets on an experimental aircraft as long as the DAR did not believe that safety would be compromised. The DARs have significant latitude in making these decisions, but generally on experimental aircraft they will let you try almost anything.

[Helidev II]

I have read through this thread with interest.
As a side not there was an experimental helicopter built called the interora firebird. It was a helicopter which used hydrogen peroxide tip jets. According to the manufacturer it could hover OGE at 30,000ft!!! I believe that the endurance was pretty average though, only around 1hr.
Like alot of other interesting projects lately it was snapped up by the military for further research, so another idea out the window.
I used to do alot of model rocket stuff, and I have to ask why you didnt go with a hybrid rocket, its a much safer system, especially for transport. But ofcorse its easier to critisize than do, keep up the good work.

[darrellwittke]

I got off my lazy butt and did a little investigating of H2o2 hazards. (I am a Hazmat operations level firefighter and have a commercial drivers license with Hazmat endorsement, so I wasn't completely ignorant of the hazards associated with receiving a shipment of 90% H2o2.)

What I found is (from a glance in the Emergency Response Guidebook) that it is not a toxic inhalation hazard (relatively), not a water reactive material, if a fire occurs with small quantities (200 liters or smaller) simply use water in flooding quantities. Ditto for small spills, use flooding quantities of water. (All good things, relatively.) Bad things are containers may explode from heat and it may react explosively with hydrocarbons (fuels).

Questions I have are what temperature can 90% H2o2 withstand before self-decomposition occurs? Also, what kind of storage facility would you recommend Erik? (I am thinking of storing it in an old empty van body I have on the family farm, out in the junkyard away from everything. If it burns no big deal, and is all metal though it may require a good cleaning to remove oils on floor. That is if I can't appease fears and we can't find an east coast gyronaut to help out.)

A search of the D.O.T. website (www.hazmat.dot.gov), CFR 49 section 173.201 reveals packaging (which is the key to safe storage) needed for shipment across roadways. I think it is Class 5 division 5.1 and if my intrepretation is correct, when shipped in small non-bulk quantities (less than 1001 pounds), it is not even required to be placarded.

Calls to UPS and Federal Express, however, revealed that they do not transport the stuff, even in small quantities. Hazmat carriers, of which I believe Rodeway and Yellow truck lines are the two biggest and most common, will transport it but at a high price.

The price quoted to me from Yellow truck lines for transport of one tote from port of New York to Helena Montana was $1684.00.

Strategically I don't know what to think about the best way for Erik to accomplish his objectives (which are to provide a gyrocopter prerotation system (and fuel) which is capable of vertical take-offs and landings.) I know that the costs which can legally be recovered for a Hazmat incident by a fire department are incredibly high. I also know that H2o2 caches around the country whereby the gyro enthusiast can travel to and pick up the required fuel appear necesary. (Thereby avoiding the exorbitant costs of a dedicated hazmat carrier doing UPS style deliveries.) However, the liability costs to transport, properly store and manage the risks associated with the fuel (though low, in my opinion but what do I know) may drive the expense of operating the system too high for recreational pilots to pay for.

Perhaps the grassroots approach is the best, with willing people (like myself) out in the backwoods to have small non-bulk quantities stored and available for purchase until people with appropriate resources in the larger cities become interested as the demand increases?

I guess I stated the obvious, the first thing to do is build a functioning prototype and promote it vigorously. The rest of the issues will probaly resolve themselves quickly if the system works as well as theoretically possible.

As always, thanks for reading my meanderings, if any east coast people are interested please speak up. Erik, can you post an idea of what storage requirements might be?

Also Sir, have you contacted any U.S. manufacturers regarding development support. I noticed AAI (801 973 0177) has a public use sparrowhawk which would be a natural fit for a vertical take-off and landing system.

Thanks in advance for any replies. darrell

[Brent_Brown]

I do not see the need for importing the H2O2. It can be made here. At the price for one take off you could use solid rockets the same size and be safer. I like the system just not the price to get it to work. use a car stater to get the blades up to what they can fire the SRB and takeoff and hope they both burn complete or weight will be off.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Darrel,
Thank you very much for investigating regulations. It is boring work, but necessarry, to come forward!
The quoted price, New York-Montana, from Yellow Truck is high, $1684/tote. How much is a "tote"? Can it be that Yellow Truck has quoted a full truck load, because they dont want to mix hazardeous and non-hazardeous materials on the same truck? If shipping one pallet only it will be $21/gallon, (12 drums = 80 gallons)
For comparison I have a quotation for the shipping from my base in Sweden all the way to the port of Philadelphia, PA for $365/pallet only (= $5/gallon).
I need $25/gallon myself, so in Montana the total price including cost of transport would be $51/gallon (25 + 5 + 21). For one vertical take-off, from one quarter up to half a gallon is needed (= 15 to 30 seconds operation of the rockets). So the cost per vertical take-off would be from $13 to $26. This initial cost level may be acceptable at least for some people. It should be possible to lower the cost considerably when the volumes picks up. Also one dont need to use the system at every take-off if having access to a long runway.
Darrel, you ask about regulations for storage of HP. I am aware of a few authority regulations only. One need to store the product on a fenced and locked area separate from other activities and no access for unouthorized persons. (For a pellet this area is 3 x 3.5 feet only). There should be easy access to fire water. These regulations are for a comercial depot -if the storage is for your own need only, I think it is up to your own responsibility how you store it. I believe the fire department in your county, can tell you if there are any other requirements.
You also asked about self decomposition: It only decompose if it becomes poluted. The decomposition rate doubles everytime increasing the temperature with 10 C. If there is no or negligable decomposition from start it will still be low when increasing temp. The drums has a breathing cap acting like a safety valve, preventing the drum from bursting at the case of moderate rates of decomposition.
I have just started talking with a couple of manufactorers regarding testing and further development. A Sporrowhawk would be a nice test vihicle! I will report when there is some progress.

[Victor Duarte]

hello andre (j'espere que ca va bien)

i may miss some knowledge but i heard that H2O2 only must be in contact with steel, no organic material and is very risky to handle... may be wrong but still scared..

there was a project called "Intora Firebird" a H2O2 powered ram tip jet helico... freezed. see www.eng-tips.com , there is an interesting thread about it.

you posted about DJINN and ram tip jet rotor blades, 6 years ago, i was considering such a design for a helico... and i was investigating about that :

- i was thinking about using a car turbocharger (kkk) linked to a rotax engine to produce cool high-pressure air.

- talking with various persons, mostly with J Everett from Rotorlite LLC, it appeared the air mass needed for a small (quite ultralight ) helico is about 4 bars pressure and 10 m3 volume/second !! huge.
- the power needed is about 3 times the power neeeded for a classical one.
- the only way to obtain these features is using a gas turbine/compressor, imagine the costs..
- fuel comsumption is quite 3 times higher.
- air routing through rotor mech is not simple.

but : the father of a ex GF that owned a helico company calles "touraine helicopteres", began his pro pilot career as military mech crew on DJINN and learned to fly on it, he confirms that it is a good aircraft, noisy but smooth, very fuel-hungry

the DJINN is about to become "vintage-aircrafts" isnt it? parts may be hard to find, (if not impossible) , a lot of them have reached their TBO i think...

some manufacturers tried this layout but, no mass production..

see

http://www.boeing.com/history/mdc/graphics/hist065b.htm

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/5249/md120.htm

nice bird isnt it?

bonjour au quebec

victor

[PeroxidePropuls]

Victor,
You are right one should not mix high concentrated peroxide and an organic solvent like alcohole, but you can store the peroxide in plastic drums like a PE-drum and you can use plastic tubing. PE-drums are what I use and they are approved by IMDG.
The military and the space people are using 90% conc. HP. I use 80% conc. It works fine, just slightly higher fuel consumption.
There is one guy using a pre-mix of 50% HP and methanol as a rocket fuel: www.armadilloaerospace.com

[quadrirotor]

salut Victor;

Mon intention n'est pas, sorry to be understandable by every one I must speak in english...My intend is not to make an helico with tip-jets, which sure gone a be very noisy! (FAIREY Girodyne)...:eek: But i am sure also that this system is suitable for prerotation and; to drive a little bit the rotor in flight which allows a safety again negative G. :cool:;
My perpose is to find a solution to the two main problems of the gyro: longer takes off than supposed to be! :o -> prerotation with tip-jets feeded by a compressor driven by the exhaust gases... :cool: ; and solve this everlasting problem of stability,-> which could be solved, once for all, by using a rotor with offset hinged blades... :cool:...and that's it! :D
Imagine: a Barnett J4B2 gyro, with a four bladed rotor (QUADRIROTOR) with offset hinged blades, the jet-tips feeded by air from the compressor of the engine (recycling the lost energy, lowering the noise at the exhaust pipe, jump take off :cool: )...not a dream but reachable. :)

manageable turbo:

[darrellwittke]

Thanks Erik, the storage requirements are about what I guessed. Of course there is a difference in regulations and what is practically needed to safely work and store the stuff, of which I am sure you are intimately familiar.

What I heard you say is that storing a pallet (of H2o2) in a metal van on bare open dirt should suffice, even in the heat of summer with inside temps up to perhaps 135-150 degrees fahrenheit.

As you stated before complying with the regulations is not that difficult. I would hope more people would be willing to offer storage space for you if and when that is required. (especially after reading this.)

We have a discrepancy on the price, I will research this and get back to you with what I found out. I believe the tote was a 500 gallon volume and would be only 4000 pounds weight, far less than a full truck load. There is no reason for them to not to mix the H2o2 shipment with non-hazmat material since there is no regulatory requirement to do so, at least in non-bulk shipments (that I have found), and the H2o2 is fairly benign as compared to some of the other chemicals commonly traveling our roadways. Again, I will research this further and report back here what I find out.

Other notes of encouragement; I thank you for posting expected costs (nut and bolts) of a vertical take-off and suspect that is an acceptable price many gyro enthusiasts would be willing to pay. I would like to reiterate that I think you have a welcome addition to our sport of gyro flying and your system could possibly lead to opening more commercial uses of gyroplanes. (My own fantasy, of which I have many, is to have Paramedics (like myself) fly to the incident quickly and efficiently and stabilize the patient until transport gets there. 90% of our trauma deaths in Montana come from rural areas without advanced medical support available. Your system could make that available, at least conceivably.)

Also, I suspect many people would start concentrating their own fuel (it can't be that hard!) once a viable rotor and H2o2 control system is available for sale. Therefore I would suggest the big money (or at least as much as our tiny aviation segment can provide) lies in patenting something or everything on the system and marketing the hardware, not in the production of the fuel. (Perhaps I am wrong, the costs aren't that high to make people distill their own.)

Glad to hear you are communicating with manufacturers. With your talents, schooling and working expertise combined with theirs, I think a better system would be more rapidly available for us gyronauts.

Again, thanks for using your life experience in this field. darrell

[quadrirotor]

In the domain of aviation, the surest way to become a millionair is to be a billionair!...don't waste your time with patenting, give as much infos as you can, show your technology...This will open the market...propose your plans, procedees, and materials...that will give you the best return for the least investment. In the homebuilt market, people accept to waste their time but not their money...
If you lock the market, that's the best way to kill the market and be forgotten...

[darrellwittke]

Well I finally got back to calling around for H2o2 shipment prices. Here is what I found out. Low price bid was from Yellow truck lines for shipment of 500lbs bulk in drums from Portland, Maine to Helena, Mt for $822.30. However, with a little sweet talking, she (the agent) offered me a complimentary discount to bring the price to $598.00. For 200 pounds it would be $429.46 and with discount $265.28.

I think this is much more in line with what you were quoted, Erik. The first price I was quoted must be for a full truckload, as you mentioned.

I must confess you have got my dreams fired up with your system. I don't have a technical background but love your system because #1 I've seen a video of it actually working! #2 It appears simple and makes sense #3 I can think of three systems using this, just off the top of my head! (the rocket belt at the 1984 olympics, the intora firebird, and yours)

If you don't mind answering some questions of curiousity, it appears your system is H2o2 placed in a 4500 psi capable SCBA bottle, if it were me, I would pressurize it with 200 pound nitrogen, then it is plumbed out and regulated by a ball valve turned by hand and then sent through the rotor head via a H2o2 tolerant sealed bearing and pushed and flung down the rotor blades to the rocket chamber. Is this correct, roughly? I don't know but it is how I would do it but I am a self confessed idiot.

I love the simplicity of the system for only having one problem, the caustic nature of the H2o2. This cannot be a large problem though because as you pointed out, you have been splashed as did the first pilot before the wreck, and you're still here and communicating. I don't see the problems of Brent Browns rocket suggestion (ignition (or not) and one time use) and Andre's turbine idea, which brings up problems with gyroscopic precession and fractures. Your system has the simplicity to be robust enough to do the job and is the only system I have seen working!

On the fantasy front (of flying an ultralight gyrocopter to the medical scene in rural and semi-rural areas and performing Paramedic work-ups) I had a Montana Division of Aeronautics pilot endorse the idea (much to my shock!) and he stated (concerning my worries of landing to close to a building) for emergency medical work there is a grey area I could work in. I don't know if the Fed's would say the same thing but at least there is one guy in the system who is for it.

So please continue as fast as you can, Erik, and keep us updated so I can keep my fantasies going (maybe a slim chance of reality there, I know the need is great.)

With great respect, darrellwittke

[PeroxidePropuls]

OK Darrel,
Your new transport price offers from Yellow Truck Lines for the peroxide were much better. My present plan is to send the first shipment to Larry Neil in Texas. He is interested to test the system on one of his Butterfly gyros. See his web site on http://www.thebutterfly.info/ Texas is a shorter transport than Montana, so let us wait and see, Darrel.

It is encouraging to know that I have supporters, like you, out there that share the same dreams about possible gyro aviation developments.

Your description of the peroxide tip rocket system is correct if speaking in general terms. My way of keeping the pressure in the peroxide tank is special though, I believe. I do not use nitrogen which is the most common solution. Instead I use carbon dioxide gas, CO2, which is a liquid when stored under pressure. The same as for propane gas. I am sure you have seen the propane liquid in those transparent cigarette lighters. The CO2 needs less volume than nitrogen would have and the pressure is constant at 750 psi, until the tank is emptied. No pressure control valve is needed. -Equally simple as a cigarette lighter or the older type of spray bottles for hair spray (They used freon for the same purpose). If you are interested you can read a more detailed description on my web site http://www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/15

Lately, I have been working on my facilities for the purification and distillation of the standard grade peroxide, for making rocket grade quality. In fact I was starting production in my new bigger distillation unit as late as today. It worked fine! Iwill take a couple of beer now to celebrate. Miller time, in Sweden! You guys on the other side need to wait for a few more hours, -sorry.

[darrellwittke]

Thanks for the update. And thanks for pointing out the relevant design thread (I missed it before evidently.) Congrats on the distillation and your contacts with Larry Neal. Looking forward to your system working on the butterfly. (What a deal! Vertical Take-offs and high G landing system for safety!) darrellwittke

[Victor Duarte]

hi erick and others,
can i can ask you a question, being ignorant about H2O2...

is perox ok to be ducted through rubber ducts, epoxy ? what kind of materials should be avoided ?

other question, do you think perox could be used in addition to a tip-jet system to produce more pressure or additionnal pressure , mixed with compressed air ? (after air being compressed by a compressor)

thanks in advance
victor

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Victor,
I have been travelling so I did not read your questions. Anyhow: Rubber and epoxy are no good materials in contact with hydrogen peroxide. The best materials of construction when it comes to metals are aluminium and stainless steel and when it comes to polymers, polyethylen (PE) is a good material. Also PVC is acceptable.

I guess one could combine compressed air and hydrogen peroxide, theretically speaking. I have never tried it.

[Victor Duarte]

thanks eric ! no problem
it s a pity .. i was thinking (and think) perox could be a good "emergency" device..
and... following on ignorance.. what happens if contact with unappropriate materials? a degradation or the "reaction" ?
i saw in your drawings perox could be used in a kind of "expansion chamber" before ducted to tips, after this, is the "mix" a kind of dangerous if in contact with composites?
thank you

[PeroxidePropuls]

Victor,
Unproper polymers degrades. Unproper metals, like for example cupper, makes the peroxide to decompose at the walls.

[Victor Duarte]

thanks erik !
i m actually designing a rotor head that will be ready for tip jet, when i ll have completed it, i ll show you and you will understand better why i m asking those (silly) questions ;)
thanks a lot.

[Brent_Brown]

Erik What is going on can you tell us if someone is going to help you here or not. What are the plans. I think if we see it working here on a flying powered gyro it might take off get it take off.

[quadrirotor]

Go to :
http://www.autogire.com
clic on this pics.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Brent and all others,
As we have said before, the key to develop the rotor tip rocket system is to make the fuel available, so I have been concentrating on producing the rocket grade hydrogen peroxide for a while. I have sold and delivered 32 gallons of the stuff to Stuart Ross in England (He is a Rocket Belt guy. You can read about his project here: http://www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/26 ). I did it as a test to see how the transport regulations would work in practice. The shipment worked fine from door to door and the total transport cost came to 315 Euros. Not so bad if you ask me, and the transport cost per gallon will be much lower if I ship more. Next test shipment will be to US I hope.

[Victor Duarte]

Hi eric,
if you cath this question before you go ;)
you state on your site the perox could be "catalyzed" in a pre-chamber,
then, can the air be ducted through all kind of materials ?
thanks

[PeroxidePropuls]

Zeeoo,
You probably refer to the catalyst package chamber were the silver wire mesh is installed. Here the HP decompose to water steam and oxygen. The temperature increases to around 650 C (= 1200 F). You can duct this gas mix in about any material that can take the heat. In my own design the catalyst package is a part of the rocket body and located just in front of the nozzle

[Victor Duarte]

Ok Erik, and thanks,
mmm 650 c sounds high temp ...
and what about mixing compressed air with a very small quantity of perox injection.. just to add an extra pressure... cooler or the same temp ?
thanks

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hello Group,
Long time no speak.
I have added an article on my site, with my own visions of what rotor tip rockets could be used for, other than just as pre-rotation: www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/27
I would apreciate your comments, because I know many of you have many hours of flight time and a deep understanding of autogyro performence. Myself I have only about 3 seconds of flight time and I have never been flying any higher than 1 foot above ground. Those of you that have been reading about my flight demonstration in Vasteras this summer knows why.

Without joking I have a lot in the pipe line right now like some considerable improvements of my tip rocket system and regarding supply of hydrogen peroxide.
I hope to be able to report about these things soon.
Erik

[darrellwittke]

Glad things are going well in the pipeline, Erik. As you know, I believe your H2O2 system could have a dramatic impact on our sport of gyro flying.

Although I have only 45-50 hrs on my gyro, I would say the most desirable thing about your system would be the ability to perform vertical take-offs (or nearly so.) Adding rocket power while flying may be a useful adjunct of your system, however, but is hardly needed as badly as vertical take-offs.

Also, in mentioning lightness and cost reduction, both worthy goals, I would suggest pursuing this down the road. As I said in a previous post, (I think) the best way (in my humble opinion) for you to attain your goals is to build a robust, reliable,working, powered gyrocopter with your H2O2 rocket system proving it (the gyro) capable of vertical take-offs. Demonstrate it and promote it as much as you possibly can and interest (and sales) cannot be far behind.

I don't think cost is too much of a factor when there are many people paying $30,000 us dollars for a two place gyro (who would love to do VTO's, I believe.) As previously discussed, a small market however (Appx. 1000? gyros flyin in Unites States?)

Vertical landings and/or the ability to do landings in a slower fashion, to give time to assess the landing and/or fly away, would be very desirable (I believe) if I was consistently doing off airport landings. Gyrogliding and the one-person helicopter should be useful and fun, but the problems inherent with high fuel consumption and limited range would once again crop up (as with the Intora Firebird.)

Personally, what I myself would really like to see is a gyrocopter capable of carrying a paramedic and medical gear to the scene of a 911 call (either medical or trauma.) Although you would lack the capability of transporting the patient (as the very expensive lifeflight helicopters do now in the United States) you would have the ability to stabilize the patient until an appropriate transport vehicle arrives. This by itself has value and would save lives, I believe.

What is required of the aircraft then, I believe, is to carry the pilot/paramedic and the equipment (appx. 120 lbs) to the scene and effect a safe landing and take-off. Your Hydrogen Peroxide rocket system fitted to a couple current two place models would seem (at a glance, admittedly through a hazy dreamers best guess) to be able to fill that role. Particularly Larry Neals machine with the high g landing gear.

The downside is that it may not be that useful since it is limited to daylight hours, the regulatory state of aviation and medicine may intervene if it proves effective or somebody gets hurt, but the positive and probaly best effect of it may be volunteer recruitment (90% of Montana's emergency medical system is volunteer, and it is declining rapidly.)

Well shoot, I guess I've been getting fired up about my dreams of gyrocopters achieving something more useful than a personal recreation toy again. (Oh well, nothing wrong with that, thanks for listening.)

In closing, thank you for posting your thoughts and the progress you are making with your hard work and application of your life's learning, Erik. Please keep us posted further when you can, and as always, good luck to your efforts. Sincerely, Darrell Wittke

[Hognose]

Recently, somebody [Darrel? Mike Hook? I'm not sure, sorry] engaged me in a discussion in another thread. I mentioned a couple of things, but since then two things have happened: I hit the books, and I discovered this thread. I see that Erik has been doing some very interesting work! I also not that you once worked in a very famous place, Rjukan, Norway. I presume at the Norsk Hydro plant? (That was where saboteurs sent from England destroyed the European production centre and stocks for heavy water, which crippled Nazi atomic research -- that, and Hitler's stupidity about Jews and physics).

Properties of HTP and Some Other Details
High-test peroxide needs to be stored in glass, stainless, or other inert containers. It also is subject to decomposition over time. The more impurities in a given stock of H202, the quicker it decomposes. So it has a pretty short shelf life. The shipping containers are usually vented barrels.

To put it another way, the more concentrated it is, the more stable it is. 100% H2O2 (only a theoretical material, really -- not a practically manufactured one) would be perfectly stable. The lower than that the concentration is, the more H2O2 is a "use it or lose it" material. The impurities in H2O2 also contribute to the breakdown of catalyst packs.

HTP will react violently with organic materials. The Germans used to have a training film for Me-163 flight and ground crews that showed peroxide setting various items ablaze. They all started out somewhat anal about wearing rubber suits, but relaxed as their familiarity with the material grew. (The real hazmat in Me-163 ops was N2H4, Hydrazine Hydrate, which allowed exploitation of the O2 output of the H202 catalysation, and doubled both the operating temperature and the thrust of the H202 engine). Likewise, the US had problems with craft that used H202 -- at the time, a material called ulmer leather was used as gaskets in American rocket engines, and this cause the loss of several X-Craft before they figured out what the problem was.

The man that a couple of you mentioned, who was working with peroxide-powered ground vehicles and jet belts, among other things, was Juan Manuel Lozano of Mexico. His page is here: http://www.tecaeromex.com/ in English or Spanish.

Pros and Cons of Peroxide Monopropellant as a Rocket Fuel
Pro -
1. Safe.
2. Environmentally friendly. Output is oxygen and water vapor!
3. Relatively low-temp reaction simplifies engineering
4. Relatively inexpensive
5. Decent power
6. Easily throttleable

Con -
1. Does Require Special Handling.
2. Undeserved Bad Reputation
3. Leaves "money on the table" by outgassing O2.
4. Availability
5. Catalyst breakdown, cost, and durability issues.
6. Requires extremely thorough postflight clean-up.

Other Uses of Peroxide -- Rocketry
Erik has already linked to John Carmack's fascinating (but so far, a bit unlucky) Armadillo Aerospace monopropellant rocket. H2O2 is also used in a lot of bipropellant rockets as a fuel or an oxidant, or (as in the Me-163) both!

The British used HTP extensively in their 1960s missile and space programs, which were ultimately budget-cut. Black Knight, Black Arrow, Black Prince, Black Adder... well, maybe not Black Adder.

It also can be used as it was in the V-2, simply to drive turbopumps that move other hypergolic fuel/oxidant combinations together.

Some Earlier Peroxide & Reactive Rotorcraft Not Previously Mentioned
It was not powered by peroxide, but the Wiener-Neustädter Wn.342-4, while often called a helicopter, appears to have been a gyroplane that the tip jets gave some jump ability to. In forward flight it was driven by a Walter Mikron pusher engine, and had a max speed of 50 km/h or about 30 mph. It weighed 640 Kg (1400 lb) and seated two. It, and its designer, Baron Friedrich von Doblhoff, were brought to the USA after the war, and presumably it was studied... somewhere.

The tip jets of the Wn.342 were created by an unusual form of turbojet. First, compressed air, coming from a mechanically-driven supercharger in the fuselage of the machine, was routed through the rotors to the tipjets. There fuel was mixed and fired. Performance of the machine was pretty forgettable, as mentioned above. It was quickly outstripped by real helicopters. I don't know what became of the machine, or of Baron von Doblhoff, for that matter.

More recently, you may remember the Roton ATV of Rotary Rocket Company of California. The Roton Atmospheric Test Vehicle was built by Scaled and was powered by HTP-catalyst rockets. It had a number of stability and control problems -- very tough ship to fly. (One of the pilots was Brian Binnie of SpaceShip One fame; the primary pilot was Marti Sarigul-Klijn, Rotary's Chief Engineer). It only flew twice in Mojave, CA, and to the best of my knowledge is still in its hangar in Mojave (it was donated to a museum but an attempt to sling it out by Chinook failed). Three of the major problems with the Roton ATV were, (1), catalytic breakdown, requiring the entire system be disassembled and flushed after every flight, because it was full of HTP in nooks and crannies plus little scraps of precious-metal catalyst -- if not removed this grunge could cause a stoppage, thrust imbalance, and vehicle loss; (2), a control-input to a/c responce lag of about one second, especially w/r/t rotor speed; (3) extremely high fuel consumption. At the time (the flights were 23rd July and 16th September, 1999), Rotary Rocket was spending >$5/lb. on 85% HTP (that's looking like $40/gallon or $10/litre, roughly). Each of the 350-lb. Static thrust tip rockets burnt 250 lb. of that HTP a minute (or for all four blades, about 1,000 lb./min). The fuel tanks held 4,300 lb of HTP so flights were limited to ~ 3 min. for safety's sake. The machine made one hovering flight and one translational flight.

Why I've Been Interested in H202
In my case it has little to do with gyros, but I have been involved in a (currently dormant) project to construct a flying Me-163. Our plan has been to use a straight peroxide-catalyst engine, similar to the "cold cycle" Walter engine used in the Me-163A.

I personally think the fully articulated rotor is the righteous path to jump takeoff, in the gyro world. All four of the certified gyro types could jump takeoff, and mostly they did it by putting the blades at a zero pitch and then popping them to flight AoA.

A proposition
I cannot do it now because of other workload, but I will discuss this with my FSDO (which, as it happens, is Portland, ME) in the new year. My home base is at Beverly Airport in Massachusetts and I might be able to arrange safe and legal storage of the chemical onsite (or just offsite). Our location is close to several ports of entry, notably Portland and Boston.

However, Erik, I think that you are doing well to partner with Larry Neal. He is not only a true gyro expert, he is a gentleman and a man of considerable integrity.

Fascinating subject, and good results so far. Good luck!

cheers

-=K=-

[darrellwittke]

Mr. O'Brien for the interesting historical insight. If you have any pictures of the Wiener-Neustadter and could post them, I (and many others) wouldn't mind a glance at it, or a relevant website to search perhaps.

Quite a ways up this thread, the storage and handling requirements, dangers of H2O2, and hazmat regulations were talked about in a practical manner. With the little bit of video footage I've seen combined with a simple enough system even I can understand, I have high hopes that a H2O2 system will give gyros a leg up to helicopter performance without the maintenance and complexity. Bis Spater.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hello "Hognose" and others,
You were not sure what happened to Baron von Doblehoff and his team after WWII.
This is what happened: On April 7, 1945, the helicopter researchers could clearly hear the thunder of gunfire as Russian army forces moved into Vienna. The team knew the war would soon be over and decided they would probably be better off if captured by the Americans, instead of the fast approaching and vengeance bent Russians. Quickly they loaded the WNF 342 V4 onto a trailer and the engineers and mechanics climbed into the truck towing it. for twelve days they moved westward along roads overcrowded with other refugees until they encountered American forces. the team was interrogated for long hours by Allied intelligence and engineering officers. The prototype was crated up and shipped to the United States for further evaluation. But the contributions of the WNF team did not end here. Friedrich von Doblhoff went to work for McDonald Aircraft, becoming their chief helicopter engineer and the WNF 342 design philosophy was clearly apparent in the McDonald XV-1 convertiplane and in the McDonald model 120 flying crane which both used the jet rotor and the pusher propeller. Theodor laufer who had done the detailed design of the jet rotor went to work for France's Sud Aviation, where he was responsible for the Djinn (Genie) jet helicopter. Stefan who had done the structural design and most of the test flying of the WFN 342s, joined Fairey Aviation in great Britain and contributed in the design of several jet rotor aircraft including the Fairey Gyrodyne helicopter and the giant 48 passenger Fairey Rotodyne convertiplane"

In the above quote found on the web, they consequently talk about "helicopters", but in fact they were often autogyros. For sure von Doblehoffs first design was an autogyro, with rotor tip jets, that could make vertical take-offs! Probably the first in the world to proove the principle.

Regarding my connection to Rjukan. I was plant manager at EKA Chemicals hydrogen peroxide plant. We bought cheap electricity from Norsk Hydro though, to make hydrogen from electrolyses of water.
They had the same electrolyses process in Rjukan at the German occupation. Heavy water is accumulated in the electrolyte. The Germans were suspected to use this heavy water in an atomic bomb development. The Norwegian resistance movement made a sabotage at the site and knocked out the production. The story is told in the film "The Heroes from Telemark"

Erik
Peroxide Propulsion

[Victor Duarte]

Interesting Erik,
the mcDonell 120 was a pure tip jet helicopter wasn't it ?
nevermind, I m glad to see that the heli-gyro is a proven viable scheme...
now, I am not shure they need H2O2 to operate...
cheers

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi,
I have developed the rotor tip rocket system. I use an atmospheric fuel tank and smaller/lighter rockets. See www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/28
Tell me what you think.
Please excuse me if it take some time for me to respond. We have had a terrible storm here in Sweden. I have no Internet connection, because the telephone lines are broken.

[darrellwittke]

First off, Erik, I have to say I like the small appearance of your new rockets! I also like you saying more of the liquid covers more of the catalyst with this flanged system. In general, at first glance, I will say I like the new rockets and dislike the new container/pressurization system.

I have many questions about both, however, and perhaps more knowledge will influence better thought processes on my part.

Questions then, regarding the container system first; (Please remember I am not educated or trained as an engineer, most of my mechanical understanding comes from growing up on a farm, you could look at these questions coming from an old farmer, not completely without value but not as good as a knowledgeable engineers questions and advice. Take it for what it is worth, free, and please do not take any offense, I do not mean any.)

1) Why the change? Certainly it is lighter (a very worthy goal) but I just feel like it will not be as robust. Siphoning up fluid after the rotors have started (with 14.7 pds? pressure) cannot be as powerful as sending it on with 750 millibars? of CO2 pressure, is it? Would you have any need for (and any worries about) the check valves and air sucking back through a rotor blade with the CO2 system? Do you still have a hand controlled needle valve for throttleability?

My farmers eye suspects that the CO2 system is heavier but more robust, meaning it is able to overcome a leak in the system and is more easily throttled. The reduction in weight is very applaudable (all things that fly should be made as light as possible) but having a very robust reliable system that works every time and is not finicky is more important to me than the weight penalty.

Questions then, regarding the catalyst/rocket system:

1) Is the catalyst chamber nestled against the rotor spar? Have you measured any temperatures inside the rotor skins, on both the rotor spar and rotor skin? Will the heat (as stated 630 oC) affect the strength of the rotor spar and/or reduce life span or fail catastrophically?

2) Does/did the catalyst chamber affect the chordwise balance appreciably? Any measurements of before and after? I think the dangers of aft center of gravity on chordwise airfoil is a tendency to flutter, maybe Udi or Doug R. can confirm this, but have you seen any difference in the blades when spun up?

3) Would your components be retrofittable to the big 4 rotor manufacturers? ie. Dragon Wings, Rotor Hawk/Rotordyne, RAF, Sportcopter? In fact, could you tell us roughly how you modified your set?

4) Are you looking for private individual gyrocopter owners to test on a autogyro or are you looking for rotor manufacturers? Are you able to partner with Larry Neal and/or have you called others if not?

Lots of questions, I know. Some pertinent and some probaly not. Feel free to answer those you want. As you know, I have high hopes for your system and wish I could offer something more helpful than questions and uneducated advice but that's all I got. (Wait...got any use for a somewhat stubborn, occasionally monetarily excessive, tofu eating, yoga teaching female otherwise known as my wife? :) )

Good luck getting phone lines back up and stay warm through the storm. Sincerely, darrellwittke

[PW_Plack]

Darrell,

Given the bad things that can happen when 85 per cent hydrogen peroxide leaks and lands on things like exposed skin, certain metals and dry grass, perhaps the best result from a leak would be that the peroxide stays in the bottle. In the pressurized system, spray might land in inconvenient places!

[darrellwittke]

But the effects on aluminum should be negligible with it not being organic, I don't recall aluminum being one of the metals H2O2 is incompatible with. Might weaken it though, aluminum being capable of oxidizing, or would it just build up a layer of oxidized aluminum right away which would protect the underlying aluminum?

May start a fire in the grass but to my criminal mind it is more critical the system work then so you can fly away and keep very very quiet. :D Actually, if you have a leak causing a shower of H2O2 in dry grass, I suspect you would have to abandon the gyro to the flames and save yourself, sad but doable with minimal if any injuries I'll bet.

I don't feel a peroxide bath would be more than a nuisance to my body as a pilot. I would be wearing a nomex suit and a motorcycle helmet. If H2O2 did get on my skin the general impression is it aches but will not eat through my skin. The only big worry is if it got in the eyes but the helmet should protect that and the sunglasses or clear goggles. Either way, eye protection is a must!

I really don't expect a large leak however, I suspect small leaks could be possible at the bearing head and rocket flange and/or welds. The worry to me is the introduction of air into the system thereby spoiling the siphon effect. I am not comfortable that 20 lbs or so of air in the tank is sufficient pressure to overcome a spoiling of the siphon effect. Also any leaks, with the higher pressure CO2 system, should show up quick enough and in large enough drops as to be traceable to the leak. Not sure about the air pressure/siphon system. At least that's my thinking, what do you think?

Ah, never mind, I just re-read this whole thread and see I forgot things I thought I knew. You are right, Paul, perhaps the best place for the peroxide, if there is a leak, is in the tank. I just have this inordinate fear that I would land in some inhospitable place with wolves breathing down my neck and I would develop a leak in the system and not be able to get out again.

[Cobra]

I would not use hydrogen peroxide (or any other strong oxidizer) in a system that stores an organic fuel (as in oil or gasoline) nearby. The result is probably an uncontrollable fire, if not explosion, if they mix.

The book says: concentrated concentrations are highly toxic and strong irritants. Dangerous fire and explosion risk. Tolerance is 1 ppm in air. And BTW, hydrogen peroxide is not acceptable in any passinger aircraft.

On the same vein, I wonder if small disposable solid-fueled rocket motors might work well in a tip holder to prerotate the rotor. The solid fuel is basically a combustable rubber binder, an oxidizer like ammonium nitrate, and a metal powder (like aluminum).

[darrellwittke]

If you re-read this whole thread from the beginning (as I just did), I believe many of your questions will be answered.

After you have read the whole thread, I would like to point out to you and everyone that H2O2 tip-jet systems have been built in the past (over 50 yrs ago!) and technical concerns were apparently overcome (many times, by different teams of people.) I would also like to point out to everybody that H2O2 tip-jets are the only ones I have ever seen video's of flying! All other scenarios are still blue sky dreaming as far as I know.

So I do believe this method is doable (it already has been done) and is the most likely method (next to complicated jump take-off systems) to achieve vertical take-offs in small gyro's (safely, or at least safe enough to satisfy me.) Sorry, not meaning to preach (only protect my fantasy dream gyro concept with this system! :)

[Brent_Brown]

I like the H2O2 system. I do think that a small 10 to 15 hp motor can do the same job and use the pusher motor to overpower the torque with the rudder that would be a tall tail.

[Victor Duarte]

And why not just a simple air generator with cold tip jets ? given the price and risk level, the thing is not ridiculous at all.
thanks

[Brent_Brown]

I will tell you why. tip jets and in rotor lines are harder than ring gear and bindix or a small belt drive. It needs to be KISS.

[Victor Duarte]

Brent, what's KISS ?

[birdy]

Keep It Simple Stupid.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi,
Thanks for all your feed back. I can only answer a couple of your questions now, but I will come back with more info later.

Regarding the atmospheric tank:
I like the possibility to just pump up enough pressure in the tank to lift the liquid up to the level of the rotor and let the centrifugal force do the rest of the job. If I have a small vent on the tank even the small over pressure at start will fade away in the tank after a while and there will than be an under pressure of about -6 feet of liquid column at the rotor center. There will be no risk of peroxide leaking out. Instead there is a risk of air leaking in, but this should not be a difficult problem to solve I think. If I can not make this work reliably of some reason or another, I will go back to the original CO2 pressurized tank.

Regarding max allowed concentration of H2O2 in air = 1ppm:
This limit is for working places were you work 8 hours per day. The background why the authoroties have chosen this level is quite interesting: The human body in fact produce H2O2! It is used in the body as an oxidizer. There is also an enzyme in the human body, called peroxidase, that decompose excess H2O2. There is a balance, so to say. The humans have always a content of 1 ppm H2O2 in the out breathing air, because of this. This is why the authoroties have chosen the same limit, because they feel it must be no risk for the helth if the air breathed in has the same content as the air you always breath out!
Interesting isnt it!? I dont think many people know that they in fact have a small peroxide plant within their body!

[Victor Duarte]

Thanks david . fortunately Brent did not say, before that : "As Some Said" :D :D

[Victor Duarte]

I dont think many people know that they in fact have a small peroxide plant within their body!
Amazing indeed, we can also produce HCl, that's not fun !

Eric, we use H2O2 in the medical "oxygen water" ,this is used to heal light wounds to prevent tetanos, isn't it ? .

[PeroxidePropuls]

Yes Zeeoo, 6 % peroxide is used to wash wounds, for desinfection.

[Cobra]

They can use a dilute solution of H2O2 as a disinfectant to kill (germ) cells, but it is not particularly common- strong oxidizers destroy all living tissues. The peroxides are a close cousin to ozone (both have multiple unstable oxygen molecules that easily react energetically with just about any fuel or metal); both are regualted by EPA outdoors. That antiseptic use refers only to the toxic hazard; the physical hazards (fire and explosion) are what I worry more about in an aircraft. There are probably a number of good reasons why NASA does not use peroxide fuels any more.

FWIW, the 1 ppm threshold classifies H2O2 among the more dangerous toxic pollutants; most chemical thresholds are much higher. Im not against using H2O2 because precautions can be taken- Im just not convinced that it is a particularly good/safe solution to get our rotors spinning when so many other alternatives exist.

[Victor Duarte]

h2O2 could be marvelous in hi speed cavitation torpedoes.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Cobra,
I agree there are many alternatives to get the rotors spinning, but there are fewer alternativs if you also want:

* VTO
* Possibility to operate at the same time as the propeller is driven.
* A light enough system to be used on an UL gyroplane
* A simple and low investment cost system

I believe the main reason NASA is not using much HP now a days is that the specific impulse is considered to be too low for advanced aplications (Too heavy rockets).

I agree it is not safe to fill gasoline and HP in the same bottle, but the gasoline would float on the top of the HP. I do not believe it would explode unless you also shaked the bottle and gave the bottle a big enough mechanical shock. But again; Why would one do such a silly thing? Gasoline vapor will explode if you weld in a gasoline drum, but most people,like gyroplane pilots, are clever enough to never do such things.


Erik

[Cobra]

Erik,
Mixing incompatable liquids in the same tank is not the issue- potential chemical reactions involving leaks or spilled during a crash are. You design to protect against the worst case scenario, not the best case when safety hazards are involved. The last thing you want (during flight or in a crash) is a ruptured pressurized vessel (or lines) with an explosive, toxic oxidizer spraying all over self, hot engine, and fuel system.

Im interested only in the VTO, or more the point, a jump start. I believe that requirement is best served with a variable pitch collective and a mechanical system designed to prespin the rotor to around 350-400 rpm. Other solutions might also work too, who knows? We are looking for some new ideas here.

Your point about low impulse with H2O2 is good- it is a function of low mass of the propelled gas. It is also why I suggested using disposable solid-fueled rockets instead in an earlier post AND to avoid the safety limitations

[Brent_Brown]

using disposable solid-fueled rockets would be good. the BRS on some UL aircraft use this system and I ask for a price. 50 buck a pop time two is 100 buck for one take off. I guess if you can make the rockets yourself that would be way less.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi,
I have tested and matured the new system with an atmospheric tank and blade integrated catpacks. It works well as long as "helping" a little with a peroxide hand pump. www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/29
The movie file is in MOV format. You need QuickTime to play it. This is the format provided by my digital camera. I have tried to transform to MPG format. So far without success. Don´t load the file to your computor unless you have a broad band connection, because the file size is 24 MB. Please tell me if you have problems with it.

[Victor Duarte]

wow,
eric, that's great, but you're mad to stay so close with that rotor spinning without a steel cage :(
be safe,
cheers

[PeroxidePropuls]

Thanks for your concern Victor.
Please notice I am at least wearing a helmet, which I didn´t before. My son lended it to me. Like you, he wants me to stay safe.

Erik

[darrellwittke]

Many of us want your valuable knowledge filled head to stay attached to your shoulders :)(we want your system) , 300 RPM, wow! That is certainly enough to do virtually a zero roll take off! and with no torque and 1 liter used! Quite an accomplishment!

I am sure you can envisage the ability of your system at 300 rpm's coupled with an engined (and properly layed out) gyro, even without you ever have flown one! I am on the other end and have not seen your system working (I couldn't get the movie to work) but have flown an engined gyro and can easily imagine the two working quite well together.

I am very relieved that you posted about the heat of the blades. I was very concerned when noting the temp of the cat packs was so close to the aluminum melting point, but it appears that 300 mph wind is wonderful at sucking the heat out of it. Hope you get some measured temps at operation for extended periods but what you have posted has allayed my fears immeasurably.

Money (of which I am never in long enough supply) is another question. How much are you thinking of asking for your rockets and what comes with them at that price, etc. I don't know if you've also managed to put in all the time on the economic end to price things out, business plan, records keeping etcetera etcetera. If not then it certainly can wait (beggars can't be choosers) and please feel free to disregard this question.

All in all, although I did not get the movie to work, a very impressive test result of 300 rpm. Good enough, great work. I am very happy to hear this.
Thank you for posting here and good luck with the next version!

Oh, the spitting thing immediately made my farmer/poor mechanic mind think of vapor locking. This may be pure ignorance on my part (and probaly is) but is there any chance the liquid H2O2 being pulled into a low pressure type vacuum and vaporizing into it, thereby causing vapor bubbles mixed into the liquid stream? I would guess this may be happening at the rotor hub (and that is all it is, a guess.) I would also (and I think this stands out more, from my distance) tend to theorize that maybe the heat from the internalized cat-packs is causing vaporizing just before the packs. Measured temperatures would be wonderful to note, in either case, just to reassure fears. (I'll go back and look at the previous version to double check how it was done, please disregard if irrelevant.)

Again, thank you for your hard work, effort and knowledge applied in this regard and thank you for reading my meanderings. Wish you well. darrellwittke

[Victor Duarte]

Eric, can you say what is the flow at the nozzle ? airmass, speed ? pressure ?
thank you.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Darrell,
I think you are right when you say there is some kind of vapor lock, because the fuel supply stops after a short time if not continuing the hand pumping. This is a little unpractical if you want to have both hands free for doing other things, but I think it will work fine for pre-rotation.

I like the system and I am now preparing a "web shop" on my web site to start offer the components for sale. I will also specify the CO2 pressurized system and offer this system alternative for sale, as well. I expect to be ready with the web shop in a week or so.

Than we have the fuel supply... There is progress also here, but I need to tell about it later on.

To Victor:
These are rough numbers, but the mass flow is about 2 kg/minute for each rocket. The speed is around 1200 m/s and I estimate the pressure right before the nozzles to be around 50 bars.

[Victor Duarte]

Thanks Erik,
well, with all that airflow you could probably spin them longer ould you ?
does the rotor need that airflow to spin ? do you have calculus for that ?
thank you

[darrellwittke]

Glad to hear it, Erik. I have to warn you though, I suspect a lot of us are tire kickers here. In my own case, I have to get through nursing school before I start spending on toys, but I would like to be able to browse and get an idea of what I'll have to be saving for. I suspect many other (richer) gyro owners here would like to have your system. It's like a lamborghini, you don't have to be able to go two hundred miles per hour but it's nice to know you could!

I have 24 ft dragon wings by the way. If you have something to fit those sometime in the future, it would be wonderful.

[Brent_Brown]

Erik would a small CO2 cartridge be used to pump up the tank. this would a low psi system that can still be used on the hand pump tank? What blades are you using for the testing to date?
Brent

[PeroxidePropuls]

Brent,
I used CO2 for creating a pressure before. Now I am hand pumping to a much lower pressure. I guess one can say you are suggesting something in between. I am sure it can be done in the way you suggest. I havn´t tried it though.
The rotor is all aluminium with rivets. Length 22 feet. The profile is NACA 8H12, 8 inch chord.

[PTKay]

Just a crazy idea, but I will share.

If we can boost a Space Shuttle with solid fuel rockets,
why not prerotate with two small solid fuel model rockets
fitted to the ends of the blades and jetisoned after burning out,
wtih the same mechanism, that jetisones the parachutes. ;)

You can buy such a rocket for few $ in every model shop.

Cheap, easy to use, light, effective.
(Did no calculations, there are enough engineers here
who can tell you how big such rocket should be to
bring a given rotor type and diameter to 200 rpm in 3 sec.)

If you need to prerotate again somewhere on your
cross country trip, just take few of this rockets with
you in your pocket. (I don't think you need any
bigger one than the size of a pump-gun cartridge).

:)

I have seen a prerotator with small model prop engines,
(I think Taggart did it), so why not model rocket engines. ;)


PTKay

[Brent_Brown]

Small like this bike tire inflater.

[LGoodhind]

>You can buy such a rocket for few $ in every model shop.

The ones you see in the hobby shop are series A-D solid fuel engines with a propellant burn time of about a second. Even the series E-G model rocket engines typically do a <2 second propellant burn followed by a 10 second delay to allow the model to reach apogee before the explosive charge used to eject the recovery system goes off .. two seconds of burn and 10 seconds of coast implies kicking a very light rocket up into the air as compared with the inertia of moving 40+ pounds of rotor.

Somebody who speaks Newtons could give you a better answer (and I'd love to read it =)

[Brian Jackson]

>You can buy such a rocket for few $ in every model shop.

The ones you see in the hobby shop are series A-D solid fuel engines with a propellant burn time of about a second. Even the series E-G model rocket engines typically do a <2 second propellant burn followed by a 10 second delay to allow the model to reach apogee before the explosive charge used to eject the recovery system goes off .. two seconds of burn and 10 seconds of coast implies kicking a very light rocket up into the air as compared with the inertia of moving 40+ pounds of rotor.

Somebody who speaks Newtons could give you a better answer (and I'd love to read it =)
I concur with Larry. Most model rockets weigh in at a few ounces, including motor. A 40 lb. rotor wouldn't make even one full rotation before the MRMs were spent. It's a cool idea though, but can't really work.

On a lighter note (no pun), I'd always imagined a prerotator using live machine gun ammo... Think about it... use Vietnam-era ribbon ammo fed down a chamber in the blades, a gas-forced strike at the tips, and the recoil force gets the blades going! Kinda like a lawn sprinkler, except you could clearcut some jungle (and unlucky bystanders) in the process. :D Great for airshows.

[Brent_Brown]

Brain you may have something here. I know the FN FAL with blank rounds can fire grenades off the end of the barrel and will kick them a long way. With 5 on each end it would only be about 4” long and could be the same shape as the blade. 50 cal. blanks would be the why to go.

[PTKay]

OK, another idea, related to Brian and amo. ;)

Many huge piston engines were fired with special
pirotechnical patrones. I am not sure, if it was
just emergency or standard, but the procedure was,
you fire a load of slow (relatively) burning powder, chanel
the gases and get the rotation.

I think even B-52 was starting her engines with a similar
procrdure.

So why not instead of peroxide, have a strong chamber
where you fire your load and direct the gases to the tip jets.

Just another crazy idea. ;)

BTW: Solid fuel rockets are build in different sizes,
and I have seen many going 3-5, not just 1 sec.
Please, any Newtonian here ???
Can anybody calculate thrust and time we need ??
It can't be that difficult, the boys on Apollo 13
did it with a simple slide ruler. ;)

PTKay

[Victor Duarte]

Paul, that's not a stupid idea,
i was thinking exactly the same...but then wen to think : use a diving bottle 200 bars it enough with quite no danger...firing ammo suppose you need an amount of air to fire it....but i miss knowledge about ammos, i admit..

[PW_Plack]

Any solid fuel stored entirely in the end of the blade poses the risk of uneven burn side-to-side, which I guess could unbalance the rotor. One could fail to fire completely.

[LGoodhind]

Newton's second law states that "the acceleration of an object is dependent upon two variables - the net force acting upon the object and the mass of the object." A Newton, in addition to being a confection filled with fig paste, is also a measure of force and model rocket engines will give you a value of Newton's of force the engine will generate during the burn cycle. Newton's second law, stated as an equation is:

F=m*a
where F=force, m=mass, and a=acceleration

Assume you had a one kilogram slug and applied one Newton of force to it .. you would see an acceleration of...

1 newton = 1 kilogram * 1 meter/1 second ^ 2 (1 meter per second per second)

Model rocket tip jets:

Ignoring profile drag for the airfoil (!) what sort of acceleration would a pair of really big model rocket engines apply to a really light gyro rotor?

Deep in manufacturer's listings on the PRA website you can find that the mass for a 22 foot (6.71 meter) diameter rotor with hub for Dragonwings is 37 pounds or 16.82 kilograms.

Here's info on engines (http://www.rockets-2-go.com/rockets/information/rocketengines.htm) .. go take a look at the thrust curve example and notice that the thrust is high at the beginning and then drops during the acceleration phase. Actual acceleration is based on these curves so the results below are sloppy. (Math isn't my forte .. I got lost after Venn diagrams so I do databases.)

Since we don't want to have one engine eject and the other one stay in the rotor we'll use a pair of E15-P (plugged) engine that contains no ejection charge. This engine delivers 34 newton/seconds total with a peak of 20.5 newtons over a burn time of 2.6 seconds.

At the start we see 20.5*2 newtons = 16.82 kilograms * acceleration .. divide both sides by 16.82 to isolate acceleration and we have an acceleration of 41/16.82=2.44 meters/second/second

By the end of the first second the rotor will have moved 2.44* meters and be moving 2.44 meters/second and have 13.5*2 newtons of force left to apply over the next 1.6 seconds. Assuming the thrust curve is flat at this point we'll apply 1.69 newtons every tenth of a second for the next 1.6 seconds.

An ant sitting on the end of the blade making one trip around will travel the circumference which is equal to pi*diameter or 3.14*6.71=21.07 meters. Since I'm not a math wiz I'm going to quit now but it looks like a pair of E15-P engines would be lucky to spin a rotor once or twice.

Later...

*Why did I say it would have moved 2.44 meters? I don't know that! If you didn't apply any more thrust at the end of one second then in a second it would have moved 2.44 meters further along but over the initial second it was accelerating ... must have moved less than 2.44 meters in the first second. I am guessing calculus on a function that resembles the thrust curve for the engine would be a better way to get at this.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Regarding need of rocket thrust:
I cant say exactly, because I dont know the exact pressure at the tips, but my best estimate is that my peroxide rockets have a thrust of about 70 Newton per rocket.
The time needed to spin up the rotor to 300 rpm with these rockets is 15 to 20 seconds.
As far as I understand from your discussion, most solid fuel rockets are much smaller than this, so you would need a couple of "jumbo" rockets to do the job, I believe.
Erik

[gyroplanes]

How about a bundle of Roman Candles on each blade tip? Pretty colored balls of fire would act much like the Beep-beep of a back-up alarm on trucks?

JUST KIDDING !

However if your are pyrotechnically bent on prerotation, look beyond toy rocket motors to pyrotechinc "drivers".

Several years ago a Englishman broke into the Guiness book of records with the "World's largest pyrotechnically driven wheel" at the PGI convention in Idaho Falls, ID. It was several stories tall. We donated $10.00 for each driver and were the receipient of the spent casing as a souvenir. The wheel had to have weighed several hundred pounds and was spun up from zero rpm by 4 drivers IIRC. www.pgi.org

Fireworks world wide often have "Wheels" vertical or horizontal (some even fly) that are spun by long burning, high thrust rocket motors called drivers. Drivers can be bought or easily made and with the addition of iron filings or magnasium chips leave a dramatic shower of orange or white sparks.

[PTKay]

That was what I was thinking about,
the drivers, not the toy "pencil" rockets.

Again, does anybody has any more information on the
pyrotechnical B-52 engine starters.
I have seen it on Discovery and was always
wondering how it works.

(lots of smoke ;) )

Also, how the pyrotechnical start of the engines works
in the "Flight of the Fenix" (original movie)
was a mystery for me.

Anybody any idea ?
Practicable also as prerotator ?

PTKay

[LGoodhind]

>Also, how the pyrotechnical start of the engines works in the "Flight of the Phoenix"

ChuckB said it was the same sort of mechanism that you have on a spiral ratchet push screwdriver driven by a piston.

137>That was what I was thinking about,
137>the drivers, not the toy "pencil" rockets.
126>You can buy such a rocket for few $ in every model shop.
126>Cheap, easy to use, light, effective.

Your model shop sounds lots more exciting than mine Paul. =)

[darrellwittke]

I confess to being an avid daydreamer. That is why I am so pumped up about Erik's system. It is not blue sky, it has been done before, it is viable and logical and capable of doing what I've daydreamed about.

Although H2O2's inherent danger of oxidizing and causing fire, it has been handled in the past. Do not forget the inherent dangers of rockets (explosion, misfiring, incomplete burn with mass imbalance, etc) which is probaly another reason we have never (that I know of) seen such a system on rotors.

Please join me on getting on board (or at least cheerleading) with Erik's efforts. We need his system in ways that haven't even been thought of yet! (The H2O2 boat is leaving Sweden, get on board! Maybe literally :) )

[PeroxidePropuls]

Thank you, Darrel.
It feels fine to have such dedicated supporters like yourself. I hope you will be a growing crowd.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Finally I have the system up for sale on my website. Who will be the first to test it?
www.peroxidepropulsion.com
Erik

[PTKay]

Another idea...

when we alredy work with something so dangerous, like peroxide,
why not return to another technology perfectly tested and established
centuries ago - STEAM.

Why not just cook a small boiler of water (overheat) with a simple
gasoline burner (like those used for example to sterilize surgical tools
in the army), and then just open the valve and let the steam go
through the blades to the blade tips.

This time we need no newtonian, but thermodynamics specialist,
to calculate for us, profanes, exact number of
how much water and to how high a temperature we have to heat it,
to get a proper prerotation.

:)

The technology is not so obsolete as you think,
eventually the most modern US carriers use steam to
"prerotate" the jet fighters... ;)

PTKay

[gyroplanes]

390 Euros equals $156.00 today, not a bad price for a prerotator

[Brent_Brown]

Tom I think you got that backward 1 US = 0.70E. So it is more like 500 US plus SH.

[darrellwittke]

$510 bucks! That's all! I thought it might be $2500-$3000. Don't know why, just ignorance I guess. I can see many of the components are off the shelf stuff and the machining work is simple and straight forward. I guess the rocket word made me think high dollars. I think your price is very reasonable though, Erik. (Of course, we haven't talked about how much you will pay me to be risking my life to be your test pilot ;) Oh well, caveat emptor and experimental category and all that. Seriously, I hope you've considered this and can state that you've done your best (with your extensive knowledge and credentials and hard work/testing) not to cause my fatality.)

Full of questions, as usual: First though, nice website shop, looks like you've been busy, tracked down that inconsistent thrust thing and fixed with check valves (wish you well on patent), really appreciate the pictures.
Now then, some questions to reassure me. 1) You switched the rotating union to a threaded swivel. As I recall the union had special material to seal against the oxidizing H2O2. Does the threaded swivel have the same material (and also the same lifespan- 330 rpm for hours on end can wear stuff out in a hurry!)

2) Tubing to chambers- can you refresh my memory as to what metal? And the welding to the rocket chambers, gas weld, tig, mig, or brazing?

3) Smaller chambers for 7 inch cord- Could I get the smaller chambers and drill out the rockets to make up difference and get back to 70 newtons thrust/300 Rotor RPM?

4) Hollow torque tube- I think my Bensen had the hollow one but my Brock is solid. Where did you get yours? (Anybody reading this able to chime in and know if anybody has a hollow torque tube being manufactured still?)

5) Hollow main bearing bolt- You drilled yours? Does this have enough strenth left to be sufficient? And maintain it's safety factor? (Any engineers, Doug R. Chuck B. Udi, to comment on this aspect?) Can't you order them hollow? (easier to ask than look i guess)

6) Did the math (Oh how I hate that!) for the weights; 2.2 lbs per kg, so Tank stuff etc = 4.4 lbs Rotor pipes (22 ft of) = 13.5 lbs Rockets = 2.2 lbs for a total appx. 20 lbs in hardware. Question is what does H2O2 weigh per gallon (or 8 liters) and do you need to consider the fuel weight counting towards the 254 lb weight limit in the ultralight category? (Any Americans reading who can address this?)

7) Oh yeah, (Probaly best if I ask Ernie Boyette about this) does the weight of the system throw off the chordwise balance? Did you have to rebalance your rotors, Erik? (Did that with my Ferd Telle blades, hard to do right. At least for me.)

My biggest concern is that rotating swivel giving out and showering me in H2O2. Can you address my fears (which are probaly exaggerated due to ignorance of actually using H2O2) and state how much H2O2 would leak and what you think the effects would be?

I am seriously considering raiding my education fund and doing this (or attempting to, Shh, don't tell my wife :) ) I've sent you an Inquiary (my only knock on your website, Inquiry is misspelled) about H2O2 fuel costs.

Thanks in advance to you, Erik, and anybody who can answer these questions. darrellwittke

[LGoodhind]

>This time we need no newtonian, but thermodynamics specialist...

Sorry Paul- same Newtonian equation. F=ma .. you are accelerating a mass of water to provide a force; for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Determine the velocity and volume of water you can force out at a given pressure and then determine how to force energy in to keep the tank at that pressure.

An H202 system is driven by steam- the reaction of the peroxide with the catalyst results in an exothermic reaction that boils the peroxide which provides the "a" with the mass of the water steam (strip an oxygen off- 2H202 --heat--> O2 + 2H2O) providing the "m" in the equation.

[PW_Plack]

Darrell, I can help you with one of those fears...Erik's new system is pressurized only enough to start the siphoning, then uses the centrigugal force of the blades to draw the peroxide out of the tank. If that fitting goes, you don't spray peroxide, you just suck air into the blades and rockets.

But, why...do you look funny as a blonde? :)

[darrellwittke]

I think the other hand pressurized tank was different, more like a soft clear plastic carrying tank for water than what Erik has now. The pictures show something more akin to a pressurized weed sprayer set-up. I believe the first system only pumped up to 5 psi or so also (perhaps it was in Bars, in which case my deduction is off) which allowed the start but then siphoning would take over.

The design for sale gets pumped up to 50-60 psi and lasts until almost all of the H2O2 is gone. The good idea is to have a bleed valve hooked in to relieve pressure once I'm in the air (if I'm still as worried about it then as I am now).

I don't worry about being bleached blond, got enough blond moments that people assume I'm already bleached! :)

Actually, my concern with a H2O2 bath isn't myself. I think I will be protected sufficiently with motorcycle helmet, nomex, and gargoyle sunglasses and gloves. What I'm worried about is all that two-stroke oil spit on my tail might get oxidized and catch fire. (At the pace I work, probaly be the only time I'd have my A** on fire! :D )

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Darrell and others,
I was reading your posts already yesterday, but I was not fit to respond because I was exhausted after having working all day with setting up the new SHOP page. I had also allowed myself a couple of Miller, because it was Saturday night and I felt I had reached a milestone!

OK, I quote your questions and answer one by one:

1) You switched the rotating union to a threaded swivel. As I recall the union had special material to seal against the oxidizing H2O2. Does the threaded swivel have the same material (and also the same lifespan- 330 rpm for hours on end can wear stuff out in a hurry!)

ERIK: I switched because the original rotating union was so big so it had to be placed under the rotorhead and there had to be a hole through the whole rotorhead for the steel hose that was rotating and had to be able to lean in every direction without being pinched. It is much simpler whith the new swivel placed on top of the main bolt.
I do not know yet how long it will last, because I have only used it for a few minutes, so far. Long time storage of the o-rings and the whole swivel in contact with peroxide gave no visible wearing.
After you have pumped up the air pressure in the tank I recommend that you open the valve a couple of times and give the rockets a couple of short flow pulses. This is of two reasons: 1. You pre-heat the catalyst chambers in this way, so the start will be guaranteed "clean" with no wet steam flow. 2.You can inspect the system during the short pressure pulses and make sure there are no leaks before you sit down in the chair.

As soon as you have accelerated the rotor to the rpm of your choise you close the valve. The pressure will than disapear in the section of the system after the valve, so there will be no risk of leaking during flight.

Another extra safe practice can be to just fill the tank with a quarter of a gallon of peroxide so you run out of peroxide on the ground during take-off. If doing so it is also more probable that the FAA will accept the system to be just another pre-rotation system with no impact on flight safety.

It is no big deal if you need to replace the swivel after some flight hours, because it is costing less than 10 box. It is also easy to dismantle.; If you push the red ring the hose is loosening, like a quick coupling.

[/I] 2) Tubing to chambers- can you refresh my memory as to what metal? And the welding to the rocket chambers, gas weld, tig, mig, or brazing?

ERIK: It is a 1/2" thin wall stainless steel pipe. I let a local weld shop do the welding for me. I think they tig welded. It chould be easy to weld because I make the rocket with a weld connection ring at the inlet end, made for a 1/2 inch pipe.

3) Smaller chambers for 7 inch cord- Could I get the smaller chambers and drill out the rockets to make up difference and get back to 70 newtons thrust/300 Rotor RPM?

ERIK:Yes I believe so, but as I have not been able to test yet, I cant guarantee. To be honest, I believe you dont even need to drill out the throat diameter.

4) Hollow torque tube- I think my Bensen had the hollow one but my Brock is solid. Where did you get yours? (Anybody reading this able to chime in and know if anybody has a hollow torque tube being manufactured still?)

ERIK: One move the center of gravety very marginal if replacing even a solid torque tube with a 1/2" tube. I do not believe it has any practical influence on rotor stability.

5) Hollow main bearing bolt- You drilled yours? Does this have enough strenth left to be sufficient? And maintain it's safety factor? (Any engineers, Doug R. Chuck B. Udi, to comment on this aspect?) Can't you order them hollow? (easier to ask than look i guess)

ERIK: As can be seen on the drawing, the new bolt has a bigger diameter than the original bolt. The bigger diameter compensate for the weaker strength because of the hole. The FAA inspector will probably demand to see a strength calculation. I have a friend , who is a professor in this field, so if you run into problems with the FAA, I can maybe help you out, if you send a drawing of your own rotor head. There are no 1" AN bolts. The best is a standard SS bolt.

6) Did the math (Oh how I hate that!) for the weights; 2.2 lbs per kg, so Tank stuff etc = 4.4 lbs Rotor pipes (22 ft of) = 13.5 lbs Rockets = 2.2 lbs for a total appx. 20 lbs in hardware. Question is what does H2O2 weigh per gallon (or 8 liters) and do you need to consider the fuel weight counting towards the 254 lb weight limit in the ultralight category? (Any Americans reading who can address this?)

ERIK: I am sorry to critisize your math, Darrell, but you got the weight of the pipes wrong. For a 22 feet rotor you need about 20 feet piping = 6 meters, weighing 1.7 kg = 3.7 pounds. I am looking forward to the day, you guys realize the benefit of SI units!

If you replace an existing steel bar in the rotor and existing tip weights, there will be no net weight increase of the rotor.

7) Oh yeah, (Probaly best if I ask Ernie Boyette about this) does the weight of the system throw off the chordwise balance? Did you have to rebalance your rotors, Erik? (Did that with my Ferd Telle blades, hard to do right. At least for me.)

ERIK:I have had no balance problems! The more experianced gyroplane guys were surpriced and impressed! -No stick shaking. Ether I have been just lucky, or the stability is better when the driving is at the tips rather than on the shaft?

My biggest concern is that rotating swivel giving out and showering me in H2O2. Can you address my fears (which are probaly exaggerated due to ignorance of actually using H2O2) and state how much H2O2 would leak and what you think the effects would be?

ERIK:See my answer under Question 1

darrellwittke

Erik

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi again,
After I sent the last post i came to remember the correct english name of the connector between the rocket and the pipe: It is called a "socket" and "socket welding"

[Brent_Brown]

Erik; I think he was asking who makes a hollow torque tube not if it changes anything.

[darrellwittke]

Brent, just wondering who still makes a hollow torque tube or if it would be cheaper than having mine machined. (Have to do some calls and checking on machine work, etc for complete system cost.)

Thanks for answering the questions Erik. I appreciate your style of open honesty and no marketing hype or lies.

Glad to hear about the fail safe of pressure bleed off also.

We need some input (or I do, and probaly many others) as to strengths of hollow main bolt and impact of slightly aft cg of rotor blade and probaly half a dozen other things I haven't thought of yet!

(Chuck Beaty, if you would kind sir, please make your knowledgeable comments regarding Erik's design and I promise I'll get off my procrastinating butt and send in dues to rejoin PRA! (And/or any other engineers) How about that for an unfair trade :) ($40 bucks for a lifetime's knowledge of design assessment.))

Some general background and comments: A cg (as I recall, may be wrong and probaly am) behind the 1/4 chord of the rotor blade is somewhat equivalent to an aft cg in a fixed wing, but without a torsionally flexible rotor spar, not as dire as an aerodynamic center of lift aft of the cg (ie. far better of have cg behind aerodynamic center rather than aerodynamic center behind center of gravity, which leads to flutter or blade weave, although tail feathers (or reflex in this case) can compensate.) I suspect that the chambers weight will be okay, anecdotally, since Erik states he hasn't seen any blade weave.

I confess to being ignorant of my rotor head dimensions and bolt sizes, but I'll dig out my bensen plans and send the rotor head blueprints to you Erik, if somebody on the forum doesn't beat me to it...which just made me think of another good question (well, a question anyways.) Does the added height cause enough of an increase in the overturning moment to warrant a double bearing rotor head?

I am really excited about this system since the cost isn't out of my range, I have the resources to fly it and store it (and the H2O2) at my disposal, and I am having a lot of fantasies about places I have flown over but wanted to land and check out. I believe I could with Erik's system.

But I'm really ignorant as to if it is possible to modify my bensen/brock rotor head to make it work (I can probaly handle fitting the pipes, having them welded, etc.)

Any qualified people out there willing to state their analyses?

(I'm going back to work on my railroad bicycle project (got an abandoned line close to me) and let this percolate in my mind for awhile, thanks for reading these meanderings.)

[PeroxidePropuls]

Ben Mullet, an honored member of this forum, has written an interesting article about PPR, Partially Powred Rotor in the February issue of the PRA Rotorcraft magazine.

If my rotor tip rockets are not shut off after take-off but instead let idling, there will be a PPR effect.

Ben has found that PPR gives several positive improvements of the performence, like the rotor is travelling flatter. The climb is faster. (My conclusion from this is that my previous assumption, that one can use a smaller propeller engine when having tip rockets, is correct).
Other benefits mentioned by Ben is shallower glide and STOL. In low G, the rotor RPM decay is reduced or eliminated. -a major safety benefit.
Ben tells that already Dr. Igor Bensen used PPR. -Truly a remarkle man and pioneer!
I recommend everyone to visit Ben Mullets website: www.braggroup.com
Thank you for your article, Ben
Erik

[Victor Duarte]

Hi Erik
all said previously is right. at a moment i wanted tip jets on the rotor.
it's achievable with a good centrifugal compressor.. the peoblem is that you have to fint the KW to feed it and it takes about 80 HPto have a tip jet PPR (with quite helicoptering capabilities)..

I asked you if our system coud have a "slow mode" where the h202 if released in order to produce a ppr effect, or if it could be injected in a cold compressed air circuit..if so, the compressor could be much smaller and the h2o2 have a role of booster.

for example, the DJINN blades were feeded with 1.14 kg / sec at 3 bars (fully powered rotor), a big turbo can give 1 kg/sec at 2.5 bars.. a small one 0.4 kg/sec at 2 bars, you could imagine to produce the extra airmass with a slow release h2o2 injected after the compression..
what do you think ?
thanks

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Victor,
Even if you are making things more complicated than they need to be, in my taste, I guess you can combine peroxide tip rockets and cold jet nozzles. I do not know in detail, exactly how you would like to do it, though.

You would have to try it out yourself, because I am pretty full booked up myself. Unfortenatelly, sometimes I have to work for a living also, not only with rockets.

I could send you peroxide for your own testing, without problems I believe, because I have now sent rocket grade hydrogen peroxide two times to my rocketbelt friend Stuart Ross in England. Recently I sent peroxide to Visa Paivianen in Finland. Transport at least inside EU is no problem. Visa is working with a quite thrilling peroxide rocket project! I will report about it soon.
Erik

[Victor Duarte]

Thanks Erik for your kind proposition, i understand you need to fund your life, so i won't ask you to do anything :D
Having someone working with h2o2 and reporting here is great !

for now i've dropped the tip jet thing (too much hp needed) but , later i may try something, and i just wanted to know in witch way, a kind of "expanding" substance could be used to increase airmass... the first solution if burning fuel... the second could be the use of a small percent of h2o2 to double the airmass/pressure..almost like in a steam machine..
thanks and good fortune in your venture.

[darrellwittke]

at least to me. Regarding www.peroxidepropulsion under shop. Took me awhile to do just a little bit of research (told you I procrastinate! :) ) and called Ernie B. and looked for rotorhead drawings and priced stainless steel piping and welding.

So, first off, talking with Ernie Boyette was enlightening as to why none of the technically knowledgeable heavyweights have chimed in on this thread. Ernie suggested (and Chuck B suggested to him)to stay away from this system primarily because of the oxidative nature of hydrogen peroxide and that there are mechanical systems to accomplish the same thing without some of the drawbacks.

I personally like the system (from a non-educated glance from a distance) for its "keep it simple" straightforward design. Ernie and I simply agreed to disagree on this primary difference in design philosophy.

Ernie brought up other points in our brief phone conversation I hadn't thought about though, namely properly securing the piping and rocket chambers to secure against the 10,000 lbs centrifugal force trying to sling it, and also pointing out I would basically need a new rotorhead. He did state that it is possible that the 1 inch bolt drilled out may have sufficient strength if well polished on the inside (to prevent cracking), which was a big concern of mine. (just seems like a bolt with a hole in it would be 10 times more likely to crack than smaller same tensile strenth bolt with no hole, intuitively speaking)

Another gem of information was that you can raise the bensen teeter bolt by approx. 1 and 1/2 inch before the overturning moment (on a 5206 bearing) demands a two bearing setup. Of course that will change when you change to the bigger bearing to accomadate the 1 inch bolt so I do not know how relevant.

Ernie also stated Erik had talked to him before about the system. So I suspect that, for legal reasons, liability reasons, and basic distrust and/or disinterest in the H2O2 system, our best and brightest minds on the rotorcraft conference will not be posting valuable insights to get a operating system up and running. (I will call J. Vanek sometime, however, and see if he has any interest in building a modified rotorhead.)

I do suspect now that Erik has had some engineering work done on the rotorhead and rotor bolt, also. If he has access to someone who is familiar with bolt strength calculations, then it follows the rotorhead modification probaly has had some professional looking at it. Also, Erik is in a professional world and seems like too hard a worker to let this critical part go without engineering analyses.

On other things, I found Aircraft Spruce is the cheapest place for stainless steel piping at approx. $80 dollars plus shipping. Pacific metal had a price of $157. Welding would be Tig at $25 dollars per hour with 1 hour minimum charge.

I couldn't find any drawings of my rotorhead, bensen didn't include them in his plans I remembered, I thought I had a line drawing from Ken Brock mfg. when they rebuilt my rotorhead but I can't find it. There are generic drawings available someplace, I remember some being posted here or on the old forum or maybe R. Taggarts site. Doesn't matter since you need a new torque bar, bearing, spacer blocks, etc which in the end pretty much adds up to a new rotorhead.

So in closing, I have to say I really like your system Erik, I think it has a lot of potential as a very effective, lightweight and powerful pre-rotator for our autogyro's. At this stage of my life, however, I do not have the financial resources to expend on a new (and untried) rotorhead along with the rocket chambers and fuel system. I think the best thing for me is to keep my nose in the books, earn my degree, delay my gratification, and then reward myself with your system (which may have proven it's potential by then.)

Please keep up the communication, especially regarding rotorheads and prices, if you would be so kind, Erik. Please do not be disheartened with the seemingly tepid response here. Your system has great potential, we just have to find answers to the rotorhead problem and rotorblade safety. Best wishes, darrellwittke

[JoeSwanton]

Darrell,
If the rotorhead is your main drawback keep the one you have now along with your present pre-rotator. Just mount a spherical aluminum tank to the top of the hub bar (centered above the rotor) Your present pre-rotator will povide the centriugal pumping action so the pressurized tank or the hand pump tank are not needed. You would need to add a slip ring set-up to the rotor head to turn on a electric solenoid to open the fuel valve, or better yet it could be wirelessly remote controlled. The REAL issue is getting Ernie to build you a custom set of blades. Without custom built blades to address the centrifugal loads on the fuel pipe and the 1/4 chord balance issue it is going to be an exercise in futility. Don't let the dream die ---Joe Swanton

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hello Darrel,
Any sign of the spring in Montana yet?
I hate to critisize your math, because you are my greatest supporter, but the centrifugal force from the rockets and the pipes must be in the order of magnitude of maximum 1000 lbs. The 10 000 lbs you mention is more reasonable for the centrifugal force from the whole rotor blade, I think.

The name of the guy that has made all mechanical strength calculations is Prof. Nils-Gunnar Ohlson. I presented him and the other project team members in the first report from 2003: www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/15 .
There was no need to change out the original rotorhead bearing, because the shaft diameter allowed for the bigger bolt. Nils-Gunnar explained that if you compare two bolts with the same steel weight, the bigger diameter bolt with a hole is stronger than the massive bolt with smaller diameter. If one need a light and still strong shaft it is common to make it hollow.
If you can send a drawing of your rotorhead I can maybe convince Nils-Gunnar to calculate the modifications for you. (No promise) He has the latest computor software with impressive grafic colour drawings showing were the stress is located.

The first rotor I had on the gyroglider last summer, came with the steel rod for the chord c/l balancing delivered separatelly - for the customer to install it himself. It was easy to install the steel pipe in the hole intended for the rod. If one apply some epoxy resin when installing it, it will be an extremally strong bond, with no risk of slinging the rockets out. It would be nice if more rotor blade manufactorers could deliver the rod on the side.

To Joe:
Already at the first project meeting 2003 (see link at the beginning of this post) we discussed the possibility to install the tank on top of the rotor, but the more experienced gyro people said such a tank would probably induce "two times per revolotion" vibrations because of the drag force on the tank. One guy even thought it would be a hard time to hold the stick! It would be interesting if someone would like to test it though. One could make the tank with a good aerodynamic shape and not too big.
Erik

[PeroxidePropuls]

Joe,
If one want to test your idea, one could start with just installing a small and light dummy tank on top of the rotor and find out how it effects the flight characteristics.
Why don´t you do that Joe, because I know you are an experienced pilot and an instructor? You could tell the rest of us if you experienced any stick shaking or not.
Erik

[et3dotcom]

IMO a lens shaped tank with a void in the center to accommodate the teeter tower, rotor hub, and hub bar would greatly reduce rotor drag at high speed.

Then you could use the hollow bolt for a collective pitch control! I concur that a hollow bolt is stronger – yet potential for corrosion inside the bolt might be an inspection issue.

[darrellwittke]

I asked a mechanical engineer about the hollow bolt issue and he confirmed what you all have already posted. Good enough to allay my fears about that.

Sorry about the slow pace of posting lately gentlemen, I've been busy (still am) with other projects.

I will search out drawings of my rotorhead and get them to you Erik. If anybody reading this can direct me to the generic ones that were on the forum before, I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance, darrellwittke

(ps. no sign of spring here yet erik, snowing with 2 ft expected in mtns.)
(pps. hate math, that's why I flunked out of engineering.)

Found some rotorheads at wobblyflyers and [url]www.keskydee.com/aviation/rotorhead

[JoeSwanton]

Erik, Darrell & Daryl,
I always wanted to say that--he he he. The nice thing about a rotor mounted tank and the wireless fuel solenoid is that the whole set-up could be moved from one machine to another. A rotor manufacturer could build and sell the complete package. (Ernie are you listening??)
Let's see now, if we shape the tank to equal the profile drag of the rotor when the blades are at the 9 & 3 o'clock position and mount the broadside of the tank into the airsteam when the rotor is at the 12 & 6 o'clock position we have just cancelled out the 2 per-rev drag variation that has been a thorn in our sides forever. If there is someone out there who can tell me why this wouldn't be the case I'm all ears. I believe this would result in an even smoother rotor than before the tank installation.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone could just bolt this set-up on their gyro and expect to be doing jump take-offs in a few days. It would have to be learned step-by-step, a little at a time just like we all learned to fly gyros the first time. I would definately be contacting Dick Degraw to pick his brain about how he taught himself and his wife to jump.
If the tank was only big enough to overspeed the rotor after a standard mechanical pre-rotation to 150rpm, and then another 10 seconds reserve time that would be perfect. Jump take-off and when you wanted to land bring it down on a normal power off approach and again hit the H2O2 switch to have a helicopter touchdown. Sound neat?? Say goodbye to airports--Bye Bye

[JoeSwanton]

Erik,

I do intend to test this tank idea (cancelling the 2 per-rev drag variation) I've been thinking about this idea for years. The only problem is, it is getting into the farming season here in Iowa and with a full-time job as a mechanic and 1000 acres to farm, it will be June before I have a chance to try it out. Someone will beat me to it I'm sure. If not I will indeed give you a full report in June. I plan on incorporating a Centra-Matic truck tire balancer with this set-up. It will be mounted laid down centered on the rotor and at the level of the teeter bolt (vertical CG of the coned rotor in flight). This should give dynamic balancing of the rotor. They are actualy made to do their job in the same range of rpms that our rotors turn. Again, If there is someone out there who can tell me why this won't work I'm all ears. I don't have all the answers just some ideas that I want to try. The H2O2 tip rockets are the final piece to the puzzle--maybe

[Brent_Brown]

I was thinking of the tank that looked like a skywheel hub bar that is bolted to the real hub bar. If you plan on gettting the blades over 100 rrpm before starting in with the H2O2 you will only need a small amount of it to get the blade over 300. This tank would only be about 24" long to hold the needed H2O2.

[PW_Plack]

Sounds interesting, Joe, but I think the changing profile drag is only one of several factors in producing 2-pers.

Also, I'd want to be able to replace the weight, drag and complexity of the mechanical prerotator completely, if I went to the expense and trouble to add the H2O2 system.

Good luck with the growing season! I doubt anyone will beat you to trying this idea if you start on it it by June.

[JoeSwanton]

Paul,

Yes, There are other sources of those 2 per-rev shakes. Most can be dealt with through proper undersling and no slop in the control system, also very low friction teeter bearings like the ones in Ernie's rotorheads (needle bearings on a hardened inner race). Another that gets less attention is in plane flexing of the rotor.(sissors effect) This one couldn't be completely controlled by my proposed draggy tank that would help cancel the aerodynamic drag variation-- Just like a slider head can't. Even if the total drag were made to be the same at all azimuths they would still vary from centered to more outwardly twice per-rev. Chuck Beaty has proposed a scheme to help reduce this one with the plate sawn in the shape of the Sky Wheels center section--to give the rotor more in plane stiffness. I'm surprised more people have not tried it. Its yet one more item to add to my experiment.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Joe,
So you have 1000 acres to take care of. When I grew up we had a farm with 200 acres of woodlands and 40 acres of farm land. My parents could support our famely on that farm at that time. It was the biggest farm in our village. We were proud to have it. Now my brother is running the farm, together with another farm of almost equal size that his wife has enhereted from her parents. They cant make a living from the combined farms. He is working as a teacher and she also has a work away from the farms. Times are changing .... and so will gyro flying (I hope!!) ... because of the rotor tip rockets!
Your idea is intreaging! Do you run a risk to get 4-per rev shaking when you have the highest drag from the tank at 6 and 12 oclock? -No!?
Radio controll with two channels and two servos (for battery toy cars) does not need to cost more than $100. I think one could do with such a simple R/C and you would have one of the channels as a spare.
I still do not believe your system would be any lower cost than the one I have now, though. I believe both systems will have their plus and minus, but I relly apreciate that knowledgable people like you, on this forum wants to contribute to refine the rotor tip rocket concept.
Erik
www.peroxidepropulsion.com

[JoeSwanton]

Erik,

There would be no 4 per-rev shake. We can only see 1 per rev or 2 per rev or a combination of these. The tank would be sized & positioned to make the drag equal at all positions of the rotor in it's rotation. The reason I like keeping a standard pre-rotator along with the H2O2 is that you could still make a normal take-off if you were out of H2O2 or there was something wrong with the system. Also by using a standard pre-rotator to do the first stage you would use much less H2O2. I can envision sevaral different types, with and without the mechanical pre-rotator, but I would want to keep it on mine. I wouldn't want a throttle on the H2O2 system just full steam ahead so to speak. Heres another thought- A low G recovery option. Mount a strain guage to the seat support brackets, when the strain goes to a specific low value the rockets automaticaly fire to recover the lost rotor thrust.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Wow Joe!! What a clever thought with an automatic low G protection!
Such a device would really contribute to improve gyroplane flight safety, wouldn´t it.
Erik
www.peroxidepropulsion.com

[darrellwittke]

I just had a brief phone conversation with Jim Vanek this morning (I don't like to take up to much of their valuable time) asking about the possibility of him building me a custom rotorhead.

Jim stated he is building a rotorhead now for a special project (wouldn't say exactly what that was, kept pretty mum, which is fine) which would work for the H2O2 system and might make more copies for sale at the end of the year or so.

So it is possible that we may have an off the shelf rotorhead which may be usable with Erik's hydrogen peroxide system soon. No price mentioned but a new rotorhead isn't real cheap.

Cheapness being my middle name, I am really interested in your idea, Joe S., (or any idea that is inexpensive and doesn't require modifying my rotorhead.) Noting the slow pace of actual experimentation and development (I suspect the ratio of dreamers (like me, somewhat,) to people who actually build and test things (like Erik) is something like 20:1) I would think you may be the first to do anything along these lines Joe, especially since you are on a farm which usually means a well equipped shop (at least compared to my garage.)

I don't see why it wouldn't work. Jim Eich threw those big clark-y airfoils on his rotor, McCutcheon had his faired in hub bar, Cartercopter has had a fairing on and off their rotor system for years now. I don't remember any negative comments about any of them, I suspect that at our speeds (below 60mph) you could hang a lot of things up there without adverse effects for quite awhile (ie. fatigue cracks).

Anyhow, in closing, I like the simplicity of the h2O2 system and am confident I can handle and mitigate the hazardous materials nature of the fuel. I hope that, as time passes, more off the shelf components (like rotorheads and rotorblades) become available for garage tinkerers like me to be able to assemble a powerful vertical take-off system. Please keep up the enthusiasm. darrellwittke

[REDHORSE556CES]

My memory is faulty at times (ask my boss), but didn't Bensen create a model called the "Hover Gyro" that used hydrogen peroxide propulsion on the tips of the rotors?

[PeroxidePropuls]

Charlie,
I do not know everything Dr Bensen did, but I have never heard he used peroxide rockets. I know he did some work with RAM tip jets, but they were fueled with kerosene I think. I also know Dr. Bensen made a special version of his B-8 model called B-8MZ. It had a 2 hp auxiliary engine with an infinitely variable transmission that drove the rotor permanently at full throttle - like a pre-rotator that is never disangaged. My rotor tip rockets would work in the same way when the peroxide flow is throttled hard. (At full throttle used at VTO, the peroxide rockets are much more powerful)
Bensen could see the performence was much improved because the rotor drag was reduced. The rotor was flying a good bit flatter at level flight. He reported a 200 feet takeoff run, steeper climb and shallower glide.
I have never heard Dr. Bensen was hovering with a gyroplane. Has anywone else?
Erik
www.peroxidepropulsion.com

[REDHORSE556CES]

Ok, ok.......in my dotage I thought it was Bensen......it was not.....
Sorry.

Try this:

http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/hiller_autogyro-r.html

if I haven't made another typo....that should show it.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi again Charlie,
I am glad you pointed me to the Hiller peroxide tip rocket autogyro. In fact I have seen it before, but it was a while ago and havent given it much thought until now. It is amazing Hiller made a very similar tip rocket system for a gyroplane over 50 years ago, as I have done now. The differense is you can buy my system if you like it and install it on your own gyroplane.
Erik
www.peroxidepropulsion.com

[tecaeromex]

Hi Guys,

My name is Juan Manuel Lozano and I was invited to this forum by Chuck because I has been working with hydrogen peroxide rockets for about 30 years now and being a gyro pilot and attending the Bensen Days and Oshkosh fly inn a few times I know many of you the older heavy weight of the gyros industry.

I know also Eric that is an enthusiast about hydrogen peroxide rockets and he developed a pair of small rockets to be used for prerotation.
After making the Intora Firebird rocket engines I presented exactly the same idea many years ago maybe in this same forum or in another similar or maybe in the Rotorcraft magazine and the response was that most of the people was afraid to carry 90% hydrogen peroxide on board and I abandoned the idea but it works and has been tested to be successful.

I designed and built last year the most powerful rockets ever used in an helicopter and they produced in a pair of stock gyro blades a lift of 2200 lbs, depitched for gyro flying.
I built the rocket engines and all the work was done in Canada by Rotary Air Force.

I sent a machine to Canada to process the hydrogen peroxide and at the beginning Peter and Don was afraid of any potential danger of handling the concentrated hydrogen peroxide, now they are experts that had processed more than one ton of peroxide to make the tests of this vehicle and now you can call them and ask if they feel insecure handling or working with 90% hydrogen peroxide.

I agree with many that have the opinion that is impractical and that the peroxide can't be transported or purchased, this is true and now if you make your own peroxide the machine is expensive and if you want to make it in a small machine capable to make a few liters per day you will spend all the week distilling a few liters to use it the weekend but it is a fact that the system works if you accepts the challenge.

In the Intora Firebird helicopter the system worked perfectly well because the system is used to fly, not just to prerotate the rotor and you can't find a more reliable engine for such a small helicopter than a pair of hydrogen peroxide rockets, with four in flight engine failures with two stroke Rotax I just don't trust this engines any more.

I wish Eric a great success with his venture, I tried it some years ago and failed to convince the people that the peroxide was not more dangerous than the gasoline or the LP gas, it just need to be treated different that this products but after you work with concentrated peroxide you will find that the product is very safe if handled properly.

Right now I am very close to test the rocket belt and later I have the idea to use the same corset and tanks arrangement to make the smallest personal helicopter with a pair of hydrogen peroxide rockets, something like this skectch.



Sincerely

Juan Manuel Lozano
www.tecaeromex.com

[Victor Duarte]

Hi Juan,
you are very convincing. A question i already asked : why was the intora firabird abandonned (really) ?
another question : do you think the h2o2 technology is compatible with composites ? (carbon, organic resins and fibers), the composites are prone to be the main building material for blades (IMHO).

thank you

[tecaeromex]

Hi Victor,

The Intora project is in standby now and they plan to start it again sometime, the main problem was a internal fight between the partners, the company was split after a trial, also they sufered the lack of peroxide because when the company was formed they purchased the propulsion grade peroxide from Degussa but after a trial that cost a lot of money to Degussa because a pilot of a rocket belt sued them because he had an accident the company that was the last to still produce the 90% hydrogen peroxide don't produces it any more.

Most of the composites are laminated with epoxy, vinylester or polyester resins and you don't have any problem using composites but if you install the reaction chamber inside the rotor blade you can have a burned zone in the rotor blade because the reaction reaches about 700º C.
If you see a hydrogen peroxide rocket at night, they glow cherry red so is important to have a insulation zone because the temperature is too high for the composites.
If you mount them on an aluminum rotor blade the temperature can aneal the aluminum making it softer.
That's why I design my rockets to be out of the rotor blade, because this way the heat is dissipated.
In rather have full strength at the rockets attaching points at the tips of the blades because this engines impose a lot of centrifugal force and stress to the blades.
This causes a problem that the centrifugal force forces the peroxide in the liquid and foam section of the catalyst pack to the outside wall limiting the efective area of the catalyst but for this I invented a device that takes care of this.

Of course the ideal configuration is to have the reaction chamber inline with the blade span but this means to have the chambers inside the rotor blades or to have a removable section at the end of the rotor blade that is covered with stainless steel just like the original McGill patent of the hydrogen peroxide helicopter that is the father of the Intora.

Enclosed are some pictures, the first three are of one of my rocket engines fitted in the RAF rotor blades, in the first picture I did a metal fairing and in the next pictures I did a mold to make a ceramic composite fairing that fits very nice.

The last picture is a drawing of the original McGill patented rocket engines.
In the McGill patent drawing you can see how the rocket is attached to the end of the spars, all this section that goes to the tip of the blade is a stainless steel shell and you will see a series of slots in the front and a large slot at the trailing edge this was for cooling the rocket.

Sincerely

Juan Manuel Lozano
www.tecaeromex.com

[Victor Duarte]

Hi Juan,
tyanks for the answer, the intora was a nice project. i also heard that it was paused because of internal problems, not because of the technology.

yes, heat sems a big problem. I was wondering (and asked) if you cold release the h2o2 "softly" (like a slow explosion) just to create more pressure and use this air in tip jets. A kind of pre-chamber with a cooler.. sorry if it sounds stupid, i m not a perox specialist.
thanks, very interesting.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hello,
I started this thread already year 2004, because I developed a rotor tip rocket system.

I am glad to inform that Clark Cogan, Franklin, Indiana, USA, is now evaluating a new tip rocket system.

This is the first time the system is tested on a POWERED gyroplane. Up to now we used a GLIDER for testing here in Sweden.

I am very glad to involve a test pilot from USA this time. I visited Clark last week to help him install the system and to introduce him how to handle the H2O2 fuel and the rockets. Clark and his family has already become very good friends of mine.

Unexpectedly Gary Goldsberry showed up to have a look on the "wonder". I am glad to have met such a well known gyrocopter guru.

I had a great time in Franklin last week!

Here is a link to the news article on our website:

http://www.peroxidepropulsion.com/news/peroxide-propulsion-has-developed-a-new-rotor-tip-rocket-system-for-autogyros

[Friendly]

glad to see you did not give up on your dream.

[PW_Plack]

Congrats, Erik, looks like it works well.

The H2O2 rocket belt also looks like fun!

[PeroxidePropuls]

glad to see you did not give up on your dream.
Mark,
Its because americans like you and Clark Cogan are supporting and encouraging entreprenours, inventors and crazy people like myself that I havnt give up my dream!
Thanks for your support Mark

[Resasi]

It certainly seems to be progressing. Good luck with your project.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Congrats, Erik, looks like it works well.

The H2O2 rocket belt also looks like fun!
Thanks Paul,
Yes, H2O2 can be used in several fun ways!
Take a look on Eric Teboul braking the world record for bikes on a 1/4 mile using H2O2 rockets: http://www.peroxidepropulsion.com/news/eric-teboul-breaks-world-record-again

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi,
I started this thread already year 2004! This is how long I have been working with hydrogen peroxide rotor tip rockets for autogyros.

I am now proud to anounce that my friend Clark Cogan, Franklin, Indiana, made the first ever ultra short take-off with my HP rockets on his KB2 gyrocopter. I estimate it was rolling around 10 feet before lift off.
In fact I believe this way of taking off is safer and better than true vertical take off.
After all the goal I have had with this project is to make it possible to take off from an equaly small field as landing is possible. From your own backyard for example.
You can see the TO read about my project here:
www.peroxidepropulsion.com Klick onlatest news article (in the upper right corner).
Or here on Youtube:
&#x202a;Ultra Short Take-Off Autogyro, Clark Cogan July 2011&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw0Vf70WZsE)

Regards,
Erik Bengtsson

[Resasi]

Congratulations on reaching this milestone Erik, and for your persistence with your dream.

[quadrirotor]

Biblic simplicity! Congratulations!:yo:

[Vance]

How many pounds of peroxide did you use in that video?

How much would it cost to ship a pallet of peroxide to Santa Maria, California, 93456?

How much do the tip rockets in the drawing weigh?

Where can I buy the little tip rockets in the drawing?

Can I get plans for the tip rockets in the drawing?

How long does the catalyst last?

It looked to me like your test pilot had more thrust than he needed, could smaller, lighter motors be used?

Do the rockets work best when going fast or could they be mounted further inboard on the rotor blade?

Thank you, Vance

[Friendly]

Congratulations. you have been working on this a long time. I wish you best success with this ideal. The gyro looked a bit unstable on take off, what was the rotor rpm?, cool smoke effect.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Vance,
Clark said he used almost a gallon of fuel = about 10 lbs. He said he will need less once he is more experienced

I dont sell peroxide any longer, but when I did I used to charge USD 3.30/lb for this quality. Its not very cheap, so one should not use the rockets unless it is absolutely needed like if you have to take off from a real small field , -or if you want to have fun!
To get a price and transport cost; Hear with Michael Carden at
www.xlspace.com His production plant is in Wyoming.
I dont have any more drawings, but if you study the one on my website plus the pictures, maybe you can find out how to make them.
If you want to buy ready to use components you can contact Robert Barrett at www.barrettair.com
He is looking into start manufactoring. You can also hear with Clark. He is a good mechanic!
I have never managed to wear out a catalyst package,The catalyst seem to last forever -at least if you use pure silver wire screens.
Clark used only half throttle (half of full speed on the battery screw driver) at the take-off on the clip. If you want to try with less powerful rockets you can make the rocket nozzles with smaller diameters. It is quite easy to widen the nozzle diameters in a lathe or even with a drill.
To be as powerful as possible it is best to have the rockets at the tips because there is the highest fuel pressure because of the centrifugal force, Also the rockets typically have a lower thrust but a higher speed than a jet engine or a propeller for example. Therefor the fuel economy will be best if they are located at the tips.

Best regards,
Erik


..

[PeroxidePropuls]

Clark will probably go to Mentone with his machine, if you want to have a look on the rotor tip rockets. He is planing to be there Thursday thru Saturday. August 4 thru 6.

I will try to come to Mentone myself, but I am not sure if I can make it yet.

Clark has got questions because people have seen the stick was shaking a lot at some time on the Youtube clip. He wanted me to tell you that it happened only when he stopped the HP flow temporarely. As long as he sent fuel to the tips it was smooth. Also at take-off. Clark doesnt think stick shaking is a major problem.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Clark did a couple of true VTOs on July 30 with the tip rockets!
He said they felt quite controlled and there was no stick shaking this time.
It is history making!
It is a pitty the toke-offs were not filmed this time.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Clark did a couple of true VTOs on July 30 with the tip rockets!
He said they felt quite controlled and there was no stick shaking this time.
It is history making!
Clark told me he is controlling the propeller engine throttle with a motorcycle handle on the stick with his right hand and the rotor tip rockets throttle with his left hand. He runs both "engines" simultanously at TO.
It is a pitty the take-offs were not filmed this time.

[StanFoster]

This will be exciting to see at mentone. Congratulations on your tenacious efforts being rewarded. Thanks for sharing. Stan

[PeroxidePropuls]

Thank you Stan.
I cross my fingers Clark will be able to demonstrate some nice VTO:s at Mentone,
His plan is to go there tomorrow, Thursday.

[PeroxidePropuls]

I was in telephone contact with Clark. He is in Mentone and he has made 3 take-offs up to now. The only one that was nice was the first one. The stick shaking came back on the other two -he is not sure why.
If someone got the first take off on film (at around 9 am on Friday), it would be real great if you could upload it on Youtube! Did someone here see any of the TO:s?

[Jens]

...I am now proud to anounce that my friend Clark Cogan, Franklin, Indiana, made the first ever ultra short take-off with my HP rockets on his KB2 gyrocopter...
Wow - looks great Erik :first:
Still a little expensive - or maybe it is just our income that is too low ;-)

[Arnie Madsen]

The stick shaking came back on the other two -he is not sure why.


Sometimes more fuel in one blade than the other will cause an imbalance. Best wishes.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Sometimes more fuel in one blade than the other will cause an imbalance. Best wishes.

Arne,
You are probably right! Clark has noticed that after having stoped the fuel flow a short time and than starting the flow again, the shaking starts. Maybe air is suctioning in to the fuel lines at these occations making the two blade becoming different in weight.

PS Please anyone visiting Mentone -what can you report?

[JRB549]

I got to see all three and what a site, got talk to the Pilot (sorry too many pepole this week) as he unloaded it and made sure I got to see it. As with any new break idea, I'm sure it didint preform as would have liked, however I've never seen a set of rotors come up like that. I do know this, of all the gyros that were being viewed, this one took the cake when it came to drawing a crowd. Great job and I believe the fix to get this system working gret is right around the corner. Best of luck.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi JR
I am glad you liked the tip rockets even if there was no perfect TO this time. Luckely enough it works well some times, so it should be fixable. Clark wrote me a mail saying:
"Every time i do this I learn more. I flew it again this morning at mentone after almost
everyone left and figured out how to do it very good. Its all in speeding up the drill (=throttle. -My remark) as the rotors speed up. Its tricky and takes alot of consentration. But when its done right its awsome."
We have also some other clues how to make it work fine EVERY time.

Again: Any movie clips around?

[PeroxidePropuls]

Clark managed to get a nice VTO on film. Here it is:
Clark Gyrocopter VTO 08-21-2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_TI8fFAR3g)

I feel the system is now developed and tested to a point one could look into manufacturing of it and offer complete systems and components for sale.

Will there be a market interest?

[PW_Plack]

I feel the system is now developed and tested to a point one could look into manufacturing of it and offer complete systems and components for sale. Will there be a market interest?

Erik, I don't think there was any question it could be made to work. I still have a few questions:

(1) The takeoff seems to require at least a little forward roll. Is this a matter of improving pilot technique, or are there stability issues yet to be solved?

(2) The automatic record level control in most video cameras masks the relative sound level between the engine and the tip rockets. They seem very loud, on a par with the noise level of an unmuffled Mac engine, but has anyone measured exactly how loud?

(3) What are the risks (and regulations) associated with talking off on grass, as Clark did in this video? We're told H2O2 can start fires if spilled on combustible surfaces.

(4) What would we do for rotor blades and rotor heads? Are any special precautions or maintenance required?

I am very impressed with what you've achieved here!

[RotoPlane]

From the slight bobble on takeoff, I believe it would be safer to leave the H2O2 on until a higher forward speed is reached. I like this idea for powering pre-rotation…..

[Kevin_Richey]

I can see using this along w/ the traditional prerotator system being used on most gyros for even better results w/ less $$ spent for each prerotation.

Prerotate using existing prerotator to approximately 200-250 rrpms, at which time engage H202 system to bring the rotors up the 450-500 rpms necessary for vertical lift-off.

Less time required for H202 rotations (savings off the ten bucks or so it costs for a H202-only prerotation). More H202 for more vertical take-offs, and the possibilities of exploring vertical landings, such as G-Force landing gear that Butterfly has.

The biggest $$ saver would be the non-airport requirement. No hangar fees, if towed from storage at home. Take off from any surface that one had permission from, such as the side of a crop field. No waiting until after crops are harvested by using the weedy, non-cultivated fringe area.

[PeroxidePropuls]

Erik, I don't think there was any question it could be made to work. I still have a few questions:

(1) The takeoff seems to require at least a little forward roll. Is this a matter of improving pilot technique, or are there stability issues yet to be solved?

Answer: Clark claims he has done several TO:s this summer when he popped vertically streight up in the air. He just didn´t manage to get them on film.
If you ask me, it apears to be more stable to have a forward speed at lift-off though, as on the clip. Just my own thinking.

(2) The automatic record level control in most video cameras masks the relative sound level between the engine and the tip rockets. They seem very loud, on a par with the noise level of an unmuffled Mac engine, but has anyone measured exactly how loud?

Answer: The rockets are pretty noisy in real life. I have meassured the noise level with a decibell meter once, but I don´t remember the reading (I believe if you scrutinize old reports on my website you can find the reading somewere)

(3) What are the risks (and regulations) associated with talking off on grass, as Clark did in this video? We're told H2O2 can start fires if spilled on combustible surfaces.

Answer: There is practically no risk if the grass is fairly green/fresh as on the movie.
When I handed over the system to Clark last summer, I poured peroxide on dry grass just to sdemonstrate grass can take fire, but it did not. I failed to create a fire on anything I tried, like dry grass and dry wood at that time, but for sure; -In principle one CAN start a fire at least on very dry grass, just when starting the rockets.

(4) What would we do for rotor blades and rotor heads? Are any special precautions or maintenance required?

Answer: My plan now is to offer complete systems including blades with rockets and rotor head with fuel transfer lines -if there is an interest. As an alternative I may offer just the tip rockets for the buyer to install them on his blades himself and modify his own rotor head. If you send drawings/pictures I could give some opinion/advice regarding possible installations.

I am very impressed with what you've achieved here!

Answer: Thank you! We should all be thankfull to Clark! No one new exactly how it would work before he tested. There was talk about "dirty air" and other risks. Some "experts" were convinced he would crash.

[Clark Cogan H2O]

All the Credit for this belongs to Erik
For his wisdom - Thank You

PS - This is just the begining

Clark

[PW_Plack]

Clark, welcome to the forum, and congrats on your achievement!

If I could offer a couple of suggestions, it might be time to see if one of the rotorblade manufacturers would have an interest in this idea. I'd also consider a system which could be completely self-contained within the rotor hub, with the capacity for three or four jumps per filling, eliminating the need for all the plumbing through the head and below. A switchable current through a commutator could be used to run the pump.

This is a very exciting development!

[NoWingsAttached]

All the Credit for this belongs to Erik
For his wisdom - Thank You

PS - This is just the begining

Clark

CLARK!!! Remember me? the guitar/singer Friday night, camped next to you in the blue Durango. Welcome to the Forum buddy!!! Way to go, someone got you on video in a decent T/O! Sweet!

YOU should have won MOST INNOVATIVE at the banquet, but...let's not go there, LOL. The other gyro that did win didn't even fly, and they beat you out because they were bigger, more powerful, and looked really slick, can you believe it? You pulled it off though, you DID it! A COrdless Dewalt??? WoW!!! Congrats, you must return :D

[dinoa]

Very well done. Congratulations to both Erik and Clark. Persistance pays off.


Dino

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Clark!
I am glad you finally joined this group. Welcome!
To show the guys in the group what you can do with a cordless Dewalt, I enclose the video you sent me this morning. (shot by your daughter Debbie)
I was proud to see you have my logo on your tail rudder.

Clark VTO 2, Aug 2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXmPhr6mn6o)

Notice Clark kept the rockets running a couple of seconds after lift-off. Provides lift from wind PLUS the rockets

[PeroxidePropuls]

A take-off movie a day keeps the doctor away!
Imagine, this could be your own backyard -no airfield needed.
Escape the traffic jams!

Clark VTO 3, Aug 2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDWRfpvIE_A)

[Clark Cogan H2O]

Yes Mentone was a lot of fun . Espesily at the campfire .
The music was vary good - Thanks . Look foward to seeing
You next year . We can keep in touch here .Thanks Again


Clark

[RotoPlane]

That was a neat takeoff! I don't know what you have for controls there but it seems that if a pressure regulator was adjusted for the rrpm desired, one would just need to press a button for a solenoid valve when ready for spin-up and release it when well on your way.

I was thinking about a system like this for my rotor but the thrusters could be smaller due to the blades 0° AoA during spin-up…..

[PeroxidePropuls]

Clark sent me a new video. He is taking off from the backyard of a house again. I notice that he uses the rockets during 7 - 8 seconds also AFTER lift off, and I think i notice that this is increasing his climb rate.
This makes me more convinced one can use tip rockets as a compensation for an under powered propeller engine: If for example the gyrocopter descend while doing a turn (banking) because of a too small propeller engine, one can compensate by using the tip rockets and make the gyro climbing
Using lighter low cost engines plus tip rockets would open up new possibilities!
Am I right? Do you agree?

Autogyro Jump TO with rotor tip rockets - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrgdcmYGDQ0)

[PW_Plack]

You'd have higher propellant costs, and the rockets would also become a system critical for flight. I think I'd rather budget for an engine I could count on.

But you're right...it would be comparable to the thinking behind hybrid cars.

[quadrirotor]

The principle is OK but...
You'd rather think at something which looks like a compressor to give out compressed air to the tips...
The thought to be completely aseptised, in case of a non-lethal crash, is a little bit disturbing!... :D

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/vfw_h-2.php

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2067

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Paul,
I understand your position, but the question is what is POSSIBLE to do with the tip rockets while in the air. (Even if I understand you would not go for it...)
I wrote an article on my website were I describe my visions in more detail;
www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/27

Hi André,
It would be great if you built a gyrocopter as per your ideas, so we could compare the performence side by side in real life.
You could team up with Bob Barret. He has been working with compressed air tip rockets for 14 years. See
http://www.barrettair.com/Products.aspx Click on "Comming in the future"

[Clark Cogan H2O]

To do this for the first time was vary extining .
It gets more comfertable every time . There was a stick shake that I learned to controle when the blades reached just past normal RPM .
( When the blades start to give down thrust ) Do you understand ?
Rember I am using a varible speed Dualt drill .
This is the Coolist Way to TAKEOFF in a Gyro. it will start out on takeoff at a 70 deg. angel for the first 4 feet then go straight up (it done right) Just like flying at El Marge Dry Lake in Caifornia when the wind blowes good . The only differance is this rocket system lifts up fast , and in total controle
This is where I agree on controlining the thrust with RPM with a pushbutton .

I am working on it

Clark Cogan H2O2

[Arnie Madsen]

...

My opinion only and subject to correction ......

Only a small initial pressure is required to get the peroxide to the tips to start the steam reaction, then once the blades get some speed up , centrifugal force will naturally draw the rest of the liquid to the tips , so much so that you may need to actually restrict the flow at higher rotor speeds. Not much of a boost pump would be required at that point.

I do not know the formula to calculate (the pressure) of the liquid peroxide as it nears the tips , but it would be substantial. A few ounces of weigh exerts a lot of centrifugal force with a self-pumping action. . It would also depend on the size of the lines that carry the fuel. My thinking is that smaller lines would be best.

With this in mind , I feel that the imbalance and wobble of the (peroxide powered blades) is because at times a few more ounces of liquid peroxide flows into one blade than the other. All of the videos I have seen exhibit this out of balance , probably harmless , but it gives an indication of what is happening because of uneven fuel distribution within the plumbing inside the blades.

Love this stuff and all your experiments here , tip jets are my favorite , I have done some experimenting (non-peroxide) and hope to do more some day. In all my reading about Hiller (and other) tip jets .... not much is ever mentioned about fuel delivery to the blades , propane is already under some pressure of course , but Hiller used a kerosene based fuel if I recall.

Arnie

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Arnie,
I was also convinced the tip rockets should work without a high fuel feed pressure thanks to the centrifugal force at rotation.
I even built a low pressure system: www.peroxidepropulsion.com/article/31 but it was never efficient enough for VTO. I had to increase the pressure in the fuel tank to around 150 psi to make the rockets efficient enough. I dont understand why, really.

Clark has a plastic atmospheric fuel tank. Instead, the fuel feed pressure is created with a gear pump (Gearchem G4). The summer of 2010 we drove the pump with a Bosch cordless drill that could spin 1400 rpm, but Clark felt he needed more lift, so he replaced the Bosch with a Dewalt that could spin 1700 rpm. THAN he could take off without roll!

We have no installed pressure gage but by studying the pump curve we believe the pump discharge pressure is between 120 and 150 psi.

Next summer, 2012, we plan to remove the pump as a test and instead use an aluminium fuel tank that is pressurized with a small battery compressor or a compressed air bottle, to 200 psi. Fuel flow control will be with a valve on the fuel line between the tank and the rotors. This is the similar fuel feed system as on the Bell rocket belt.

We are looking forward to the next flight season!

We believe the rockets will be even more powerfull than.

Thanks for your support, Arnie!

[karlbamforth]

Is it possible to use something similar to a prop constant speed unit ?

The pilot has a lever in the cockpit that controls rpm datum. With the lever fully back, fuel is cut off and fully forward is max fuel/rotor rpm.

Once the rotors are up to speed the CSU will then adjust fuel flow to maintain whatever rotor speed you have chosen.

This may allow different rotor speeds for different weights, IE solo or 2 up.

[okikuma]

I've mentioned in previous post, my friend Hal Knowles a retired USMC Aviator (ONE SIX RIGHT fame) told me this story when we was stationed at Naval Air Station Patuxent River during the late 1950s. The USMC was experimenting installing H2O2 rockets on the tips of their H-19 helicopter rotor blades to help assist heavy loaded helicopters to take off (without performing running takeoffs) and to assist in the flair of heavy loaded H-19s in autorotations. Hal said the experiments worked very well, however the increased maintenance and hazardous material issues offset the gain in performance.

Wayne

[PeroxidePropuls]

Is it possible to use something similar to a prop constant speed unit ?

The pilot has a lever in the cockpit that controls rpm datum. With the lever fully back, fuel is cut off and fully forward is max fuel/rotor rpm.

Once the rotors are up to speed the CSU will then adjust fuel flow to maintain whatever rotor speed you have chosen.

This may allow different rotor speeds for different weights, IE solo or 2 up.

Everything is possible, Karl

[Clark Cogan H2O]

11/2/2011

Wayne
It is good to hear that you have a friend that was there when they was experimenting installing H2O2 rockets on the tips of their H-19 helicopter in the late 1950s. I have seen a video about it on utube . Vary good . Back then ,there H2O2 tank was on the top of the rotor . As Arnie said ,the centrifugal force will naturally draw the fuel to the tips . Because the H-19 blades was longer , it it made the tip rockets more powerfull .
My blades are only 22 ft. total . I have discovered that the rockets Like Pressure .
( More Pressure More Power ) I flushed my lines with air , and the rockets fired up More Powerfull with hardly any fuel in the lines. An accidental discovery . WOW
I plan to try to make the rockets more powerfull using less fuel by adding air .
(super charge it ) . It might not work - but if it does ? WOW
My goal was to be able to takeoff anywhere I could land .
It feels good to be able to .

Clark Cogan H2O2

[Earthboundmisft]

Dude, I will trade you anything I have except my gyro, and my old lady,
for all the parts to make my gyro peroxide propelled... (not my dog either).
(maybe the old lady).

[Clark Cogan H2O]

Erik has arrived today
anything is possable

Clark

[dinoa]

You are a very dedicated bunch willing to play with fire big time. I wish you the most fortuitous possible outcome and will closely follow your progress.

Dino

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Group!

Clark liked the system from summer of 2011 with an atmospheric tank and a pump, but it was not powerful enough to make a perfect VTO as long as the pump was driven by the cordless Dewalt drill. The take-offs were more like zero roll, steep climbing take-offs. He also experienced stick shaking repeatedly.

These were the reasons I visited Clark in April 2012 and we replaced the plastic fuel tank and the fuel pump with an aluminum fuel tank and an on-board compressor that can pressurize the tank to 200 PSI. There is also a small 12 V battery for the compressor motor and a fuel valve. No pump is needed with this set up.

We started off testing the new system with the gyro tied down on Clarks car trailer:
rotor tip rocket trailer lift - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IQp2T7WBQU)
The new set up was more powerful than the old one. The video shows that the gyro with Clark on it plus the trailer wanted to lift!

Clark also tested taking off with the modified system:
Presurized tank 200 psi first flight - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4N7exymJZU)
It was a nice take off, but it was not much more true vertical than last summer. He said he COULD easily have done a perfect VTO though, but this first time he took his time and opened the flow valve slowly and no more than 10%. If he had opened the valve fully, the gyro would have popped straight up in no time!

There is still some stick shaking, but less than before. Clark prefers to practice more and make sure the VTO is really stable before he makes it perfectly vertical - for safety reasons.

[StanFoster]

This is so cool to watch in person. Its great that VTO will be possible now and smoother. I hope Clark can demonstrate this at Mentione again at our big 50th. Stan

[All_In]

Very interesting!!!
Thanks for sharing the progress.

[okikuma]

Here's an interesting USN/USMC film about mounting H2O2 rockets on a USMC Sikorsky HRS2 (US Army H-19 Chickasaw) to assist in heavy lift takeoffs and to assist in heavy weight autorotation. As I mentioned previously, I was personally told about this program from on of the original test pilots, Major Harold "Hal" Knowles, USMC (Ret). Many will remember Hal from the ONE SIX RIGHT documentary.

Wayne

Helicopter Rocket Assisted Takeoff: "ROR: Rocket on Rotor" 1955 Reaction Motors 22min - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQiioCJL8Q0)

[PeroxidePropuls]

Hi Wayne,
The ROR project was interesting, but it is not unique to use rotor tip rockets on helicopters. The concept was developed by Gilbert Magill already in the 1950:ies
Pinwheel Rocket Helicopter - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFljcTj4_Q4)

What is unique with our project though is that Clark has used tip rocket assisted take-offs for the very first time with a fixed pitch autogyro rotor -at least as far as I know.

Tip jets (not peroxide rockets) were used on a gyrocopter in the Fairey Rotodyne project, but the Rotodyne had a variable pitch helicopter type rotor.

Fairey Rotodyne - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9633v6U0wo)

Still the Rotodyne demonstrated something new that I would like very much to test also, namely that a small diameter rotor gyrocopter with short wings can fly faster than the standard type gyrocopter without wings, because a short rotor has less drag.
Such a short rotor gyrocopter can take off vertically -or at least nearly vertical with tip rockets, but it would have difficulties coming up in the air without rocket assistance. That is probably why it doesnt exist yet, but I am thinking of preparing such a short rotor -if anyone of you is interested to test it on a gyro with short wings. Interested?

[karlbamforth]

Wow the pinwheel is still around and they are still trying to find buyers.

Tip-Jet Dragonfly DF1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEDo95DPkzg)

This is my favorite, tho not peroxide power.

Flying Half Pint Helicopter Invention Stock Footage (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5465210978317572524&q=experimental+helicopter&hl=en#)

[okikuma]

Hi Erik,

You're absolutely right. The ROR concept was nothing new during that time period. The 1950s was a boom time in aviation in testing new ideas or retesting old ideas with newer technology.

As for gyroplanes, I fully understand the desire to have a gyroplane posses near VTOL capability without the added complexity, stress, and expense, of a helicopter type transmission to prerotate the rotor and to provide jump capability.

Wayne