Vortech Site, B-20 Model

[AzRob]

Hi,

Brand new here and to the field of gyroplanes. I was wondering if anyone has any first hand knowledge on the B-20 kit or plans offered by Vortech.


Also, industry wide, what proven model is the most "entry level" type? That being the cheapest to build while still maintaining reliability of course...
I have seen Benson stuff on the web but it looks like there is no support for that brand. Thanks in advance guys.

Rob

[GyroRon]

Dominator Single place, Aircommand CLT Elite single place, Butterfly or Monarch single place. All good machines and not too expensive if you keep the options and extras down to a minimum.

[Dean_Dolph]

I would add the GyroBee to Ron's list. Star Bee Gyros http://www.starbeegyros.com/ should be able to provide support along with all the good guidance you can get from this Forum; in particular Doug Riley, John Landry and Toby Harvey. Also look into joining a PRA chapter where experienced people will be invaluable. The GyroBee is a Ralph Taggart designed derivative of a Martin Hollman's Bumble Bee. This is the link to Ralph's web site http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/gbplans.htm

You mention cheap. I just want to say that isn't the best mindset to start out with when participating in any flying endeavor. I recognize that our pockets aren't lined with gold but then again, just what is our life and limbs worth? You should also include training in the budget. If you can't afford to train then you certainly can't afford to build.

Oh yeah, it is spelled Bensen, not Benson! Common error so don't sweat it.

[AzRob]

Thanks much for the replies guys. What i mean by cheap is not over paying for a product. I made a visit to the local airport where there were some gyroplanes and some knowledable fellas. I was looking at an older Bensen rig, mainly the frame, and was told to expect to pay around 4k for a frame, sorry, I dont see the value there, aircraft grade aluminum tubing and some labor to predrill the holes in my book does not warrant that kind of price no how.
I dont know if this is "industry standard practice" or the opinion of the local gyro guy. (the frame cost thing)
I would be more inclined to buy the raw materials myself and go off a set of plans i think.....
I realize the idea of a gyro under 254 lbs with a 40hp engine would probably not do it for me either......!
"What are our lives and limbs worth" method of thinking, in my book is no reason to accept a higher than normal markup of a product!! (not meant offensively)

Rob

[GyroRon]

Figure spending at least 4-6 grand for a good airworthy used gyro. For this amount the paint may not look good, the engine may not be in great shape, and there may be work needed to some of the parts to make it really airworthy.

Figure spending at least 7-10 grand for a really nice airworthy used gyro. For this amount the paint should look good, the engine should be in good condition, the blades smooth and not dinged up or scratched. there should not be any work needed other than for improvements that you may want to make - such as adding electric starting if not already on the engine, or changing instruments to buy fancier ones etc... -

Figure spending 12-15 grand for a used gyro in showroom condition. This would be a gyro that for all purposes is built to the highest level possible. One that has very low time if any past testing stages, and looks brand new in every way.

All the above figures are for a single place machine. Custom one offs and two places may demand more money to buy. Some owners may try to get 15 grand for a 7 grand gyro and if they are lucky they will sell, but most likely they will sit on it for years and years without ever finding it a new home. But the above prices are fairly close if your talking about someone who wants to sell their gyro in a reasonable timeframe.

New gyros.....

Dominators can be built for a little as 7-10 grand with some luck and maybe using a used engine, but could on about 10-12 grand to build a basic dominator with a Rotax 503. Figure about 14-16 grand to build a 582 powered dominator. The four stroke versions will run over 20 grand. The two place dominators will likely set you back over 20 as well. One thing worth mentioning is Ernie Boyette, owner of Dominator, Normally has several brand new factory built ready to fly gyros for sale. these range from the Rotax 503 basic to the high end four stroke units. The 503 version he was selling for under 13 grand ready to fly turn key.

The Aircommands I believe are a little more expensive than the dominators, I don't have much experience with prices on new aircommand stuff, but would guess you could add 10-15 percent to the costs to buy or build a dominator to go with the aircommand.

The Butterfly and Monarch gyros by Larry Neal are simular to the aircommands but with some differences. They appear to be very nice machines. Again add maybe 10 percent to the cost of the dominators and you could buy one of these.

The gyrobee is also a very good choice if your on a budget. I am not sure if you can buy a full kit but the plans are free and you can find all the parts you need from various suppliers. These gyros are not Center Line thrust but if you use a good set of tailfeathers they can be a stable machine. You can build a new gyrobee with a new engine and stay ultralight and have no more than 8-10 grand invested. but add on the options like the bigger engines and pre rotators and brakes and so on and you might as well have bought a Dominator cause you will have nearly as much in it.

There is also several other good gyros out there that just don't get alot of press, the Falcon is one, the 3dvr I believe is another. The Sportcopter is a good machine IMHO but very expensive to build or buy. Bandit is another decent machine and there is many others. There is better choices these days than to build a stock Bensen. Hope this helps

[AzRob]

Thanks Ron, much help indeed, i appreciate that. Speaking of 3drv, i ran across this yesterday.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2478834958&category=26441&sspagename=WDVW

Im not sure what his plans are.........auction was pulled early due to "not being for sale anymore"

Rob

[GyroRon]

Looks like he was getting out of the business. Maybe he had a backdoor deal come in and sold outside of Ebay, happens all the time. Or maybe he changed his mind and kept the stuff. Looks like it could have been bought cheap and it is a good design, Hmmmmmmm ;)

[Kevin_Richey]

Hi,
Also, industry wide, what proven model is the most "entry level" type? That being the cheapest to build while still maintaining reliability of course...
I have seen Benson stuff on the web but it looks like there is no support for that brand. Thanks in advance guys.

Rob

Another gyro brand to consider is the Ken Brock gyro line. With a good horizontal stabilizer added, they are among the least expensive compared to the prices of other makes. Plus, their kits are available in stages, so one could build as they could afford each stage.

One of the biggest plusses, that I've heard, of dealing with Ken Brock gyros, besides good customer service, is the speed with which you receive your order. You pay, they send it right out. Unfortunately, that isn't the case with some of the other manufacturers.

Three KB-2's/KB-3's in our local club have been the ONLY other brand of gyros flying for years, besides the Sport Copter ones (our chapter meets at the airport where Sportcopter is located). In the more recent era of the last couple of years, there is another brand...Gary Kaminski built his RAF 2000 and flies it all over creation.

All three of those Brock gyros have horizontal stabilizers that have much more surface area than the traditional "rock-guard" plate that Bensen and Brock machines had. One of the owners says that after converting his to a fiberglass tall tail w/a HS, the difference in control and tracking when flying was amazing!

BTW, one of the KB-2's is for sale for only $6,500. The owner has finished and now flies a Vari EZ and enjoys being able to fly around 160 MPH. He was the one gyro flier in our club who would regularly fly cross country from his home area to the chapter monthly meetings, as well as other long flights.

His gyro is "N" numbered, has a Rotax 582, 25' Sport Rotors, a large rock-guard HS as well as another HS on the tail feathers, Wunderlich pre-rotator, and "Bill Keckler"-designed double bungee cord suspension. I'm not sure of all the details of what it has on it, besides strobe lights.

If anyone, or someone you know, is interested, I'll send you his email address to contact him. Possibly it'll be posted under the "For Sale" section soon.

[GyroRon]

Sounds like your buddies KB-3 is a good deal, if it were closer I would want it! But to buy a new KB gyro, your really not saving much money over a dominator or aircommand or Butterfly and these all offer Center line thrust which is the real fix to the problem the stab on the kb is only a bandaid.

Ask John Stevens who posts here as Screw his opinion. He has more money in a VW powered KB-2 than I could buy a pre built ready to fly from the factory Dominator for.

[robertstodaro]

This guy I know has owned a vw Bensen, a 503 Bensen with a big stab, a Dominator 618 and he has flown a clt Aircommand.

He would not trade his Dominator for all three of the other units put together.

He thinks the rough field take-off and stop-n-drop landing of the dominator and the hydraulic prerotator make it the best choice. Though he'd like to see Larry Neals landing gear become common.

good luck

[GyroRon]

Gee robert, wonder who that person is??? ;>