Firebird has flown the nest.....

[Aussie_Paul]

....have a look.:rapture: :rapture:

Aussie Paul. :)

http://www.rotorcraft.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=235&topic=1179.msg8190;topicseen#msg8190

[scottessex]

Cool!!!!!!!

[Timchick]

Congratulations, Paul. I couldn't log in to see the photos. Can you post some here?

[barnstorm2]

Congratulations!

I don't remember my sign it for that site, I would like to second Tim's request for a local posting here.

[enewbold]

Congratulations, Paul. I couldn't log in to see the photos. Can you post some here?I just pulled them from his site with my login. I hope he doesn't mind, so here they are:

[dragonflyerthom]

PB

That really looks great. Glad to see her flying. I bet you are proud. Let the enterprise begin. Yea

[Mayfield]

Congratulations Paul. I wish you every success with the project.

Jim

[Brent_Brown]

Good now get one over here and show it off.

[Vance]

Gongratulations Paul! Progress is a beautiful thing.

Thank you, Vance

[Harry_S.]

Congratulations, Paul B.

After a few adjustments, the testing shall now begin...


Cheers :)

[Aussie_Paul]

I can see ya white knuckles from here.............what about that stick shake, is it you or the blades shakin. Russ


Russ, no stick shake :whoo: so it must have been me, and yes a certain amount of pressure. I am using the Rob P Oz Revolution 30' rotors that have the VR7 high performance helio airfoil over the last 4' near the blade tip.

Lots of little things to tidy up today like adjust the rudder to nose wheel to pedals, and the pitch trim spring needs a little more tension etc. Engine wanted to over rev with 12 degrees. I had it set at 14 but I thought she was bogging down. That was not the case, it was the inlet manifold butterflys on one side, which I had forgotten about, that were closed that made one side run extremelly rich. It took 2 pressure days to find the problem. :o :o

Once I am happy with the Firebird set up I have to conduct 25 hours of trouble free operations that include the performance, fuel burn, take off figures etc. to formulate a flight manual.

Thanks everyone for your posts of support, most appreciated. It has been a long time since I mentioned Firebird. :lol:

It is 2 years to the day that I was suspended for 12 months. I have gone from nothing, due to my NZ mate pulling the pin and leaving me high and dry, to the first Firebird flights in just 2 years, so I have to be happy with that.:rapture: :rapture:

I hope Alan from NZ gets his gyro going soon.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Mike Schallmann]

Paul--I really wish you the best of luck -- but for the life of me I cant figuire out how you could call this a CLT or even a NCLT ---- Id really like to see some pictures of a double hang test to verify the CG's relation to the propellor thrust line. My only other comment is that its good to see that you have a horizontal stab --but why didnt you move it up into the prop slip stream where you would get a better benefit?

I realize that you may consider this harsh criticism -- but now that you've got a marketable product --you need to defend your design --the customer has a right to know ---

[rtfm]

Hi,
Well done Paul. She certainly looks the part. Now I'm looking forward to the flight test results, as is everyone else, I suspect.

Regards,
Duncan

[StanFoster]

Paul: Congratulations.....I bet you are proud to be at this stage. Best wishes to many sales for you.



Stan

[RICK MARTIN]

I'm happy for you Paul. She's real purdy!

[birdy]

:) :)................. :)

[Friendly]

:) :) :) Also,
The pictures are far away but I know you must be happy to "git er dun."

[RockyMeLad]

And one more. . .
Atta Boy ! :first:

Yes, I too would love to see double-hang test pictures of the new bird. If I remember right, you showed pictures of the process when I was getting started in gyros.

[Aussie_Paul]

Paul--I really wish you the best of luck -- but for the life of me I cant figuire out how you could call this a CLT or even a NCLT ---- Id really like to see some pictures of a double hang test to verify the CG's relation to the propellor thrust line. My only other comment is that its good to see that you have a horizontal stab --but why didnt you move it up into the prop slip stream where you would get a better benefit?

I realize that you may consider this harsh criticism -- but now that you've got a marketable product --you need to defend your design --the customer has a right to know ---

Time will tell Mike. I hope the last 5 or 6 years of my testing experience in this area have helped me get it right.. My gut feeling is that it is slightly LTL and I hope to be able to cut 4" out of the mast.

You are correct Mike, it certainly has to be proven I have achieved what I said I was aiming for. That is a stable, user friendly, and reasonably aesthetic side by side two place fully enclosed gyroplane.

Some time during the next few days we will get the CoM pics taken.

I will have to sack the photographer after this one. :):):)

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

I have been thinking about your "harsh criticism" Mike. It probably was a little harsh considering my experience with gyro stability, but I take all criticism on board and then sort the wheat from the chaff critics. I appreciate all input, even if I get a little disgruntled at times.:lol:

The way I test for CoM to thrust offset is to fly the machine without the h/stab and see how it responds to power on and power off while trimmed s/level stick free and stick locked. That is easier than the 2 pic method BUT it does not supply documented evidence.

Firebird has only conducted 3 hops down the runway so far, so there is much more to do before I start mouthing off.:lol:

Nice day for some testing so I better get out there and do it. Hopefully I will be happy enough to fly without the stabs by this evening. I need to conduct this test for my own eveluation of what I need to do conducting the fine tuning of FB

Aussie Paul. :)

[StanFoster]

Paul: Just curious.....how much prop tip clearance to your keel do you have? What would be your personal minimum?


Stan

[GyroRon]

Hmmmmm....... test flights with two souls on board? naughty naughty!!!!

[Aussie_Paul]

Hmmmmm....... test flights with two souls on board? naughty naughty!!!!

Don't rain on my parade :der:

My experienced gyro builder and flying mate Chum :angel:has been building Firebird with me. As long as it was legal, there was no way that I could stop him from being part of it, nor would I want to, and we were and are legal. :ohwell:

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

Paul--I really wish you the best of luck -- but for the life of me I cant figuire out how you could call this a CLT or even a NCLT ---- Id really like to see some pictures of a double hang test to verify the CG's relation to the propellor thrust line. My only other comment is that its good to see that you have a horizontal stab --but why didnt you move it up into the prop slip stream where you would get a better benefit?

I realize that you may consider this harsh criticism -- but now that you've got a marketable product --you need to defend your design --the customer has a right to know ---

Mike, you had me questioning myself. :lol: Today I flew Firebird without the stabs. Trimmed hands free at 50 mph I rammed the throttle open to full power. The nose rose gently and air speed began to decrease.

Firebird is slightly LTL. The pics will no doubt prove this.

Aussie Paul. :)

[birdy]

Hmmmmm....... test flights with two souls on board? naughty naughty!!!!
Gota agree with you this time Ronny. Legle or not, its still irrisponsable. :(

[Greg Mitchell]

G'Day Paul,

Firebird is slightly LTL :hail: :first: ......if this proves to be the case, then how will you set the HS incidence and why?

I thought you were shooting for 2-3" HTL to have the neg incidence stab etc, etc.....? :confused:

This is why you're looking to cut the mast down by 4" to raise the C of G relative to the thrustline, thus returning to the slightly HTL?

Lastly, I'm not sure how legal you are with a passenger on board during testing Paul. Also, I can imagine the report which read....."a prototype side by side two place, slightly HTL gyroplane crashed today:rant: ......the gyroplane was not fitted with a horizonatal stabilizer, which is mandatory for all two place craft.":eek: Hope you replaced Chum with a couple of sand bags.:lol:

Cheers,

Mitch

[Aussie_Paul]

G'Day Paul, Hi Greg

Firebird is slightly LTL :hail: :first: ......if this proves to be the case, It will.then how will you set the HS incidence and why? Some things I wont divulge Greg.

I thought you were shooting for 2-3" HTL to have the neg incidence stab etc, etc.....? :confused: No

This is why you're looking to cut the mast down by 4" to raise the C of G relative to the thrustline, thus returning to the slightly HTL? No

Lastly, I'm not sure how legal you are with a passenger on board during testing Paul. Well I am Mitch.Also, I can imagine the report which read....."a prototype side by side two place, slightly HTL gyroplane crashed today:rant: ......the gyroplane was not fitted with a horizonatal stabilizer, which is mandatory for all two place craft."Lazlo is allowed to have his RAF without a h/stab Greg. Firebird is registered as a single seater and the only passengers that can be carried are those that have an ASRA gyroplane certificate. Hope you replaced Chum with a couple of sand bags.:lol: No just with a 60 kg drum of concrete.
Cheers,

Mitch

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

Paul: Just curious.....how much prop tip clearance to your keel do you have? What would be your personal minimum?


Stan

Hi Stan, 1" is my personal minimum. I will measure it tomorrow.

Aussie Paul. :)

[dragonflyerthom]

Great to see you in the Air PB.

At least the name RAF didn't come up with this post. I just love the look of you Gyro Paul. Lots of things to do besides respond to the gruff of the forum. Good luck in your continued research.

Once again Great to see ya flying in Firebird

[scottessex]

If the passenger was a "crew member" like a licensed mechanic who was watching gauges, it should be legal, at least here it is.

[StanFoster]

Paul: Also...if you posted this...I missed it..but what is your prop diameter?


Stan

[Mike Schallmann]

Paul--. When I learned to fly I learnt that the stick controlled ATTITUDE and the throttle controlled ALTITUDE..

So to translate this to my experiences in flying a gyro --if your cruising along in most gyros with the rotors LOADED and you give it more throttle the gyro should gain altitude and nose up slightly . ( I got a feeling that I will have to explain this in a later post).

The problems arise when the rotors become UNLOADED . Apply power to a HTL gyro with rotors unloaded and it will rotoate around the CG and begin the classic PPO. In a true CLT your ATTITUDE will not change but you will begin a verticle decent because of reduced lift. In an LTL you will nose up slightly and begin a verticle decent due to the unloaded rotors --howerver you will probably recover quicker with an LTL as the rotors will load back up faster..

[Aussie_Paul]

If the passenger was a "crew member" like a licensed mechanic who was watching gauges, it should be legal, at least here it is.

It was/is Scott, after the sh1t a couple of years ago I cannot afford to not be illegal, especially whenh I put stuff on the internet.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

Paul: Also...if you posted this...I missed it..but what is your prop diameter?


Stan

72"

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

Paul--. When I learned to fly I learnt that the stick controlled ATTITUDE and the throttle controlled ALTITUDE..

So to translate this to my experiences in flying a gyro --if your cruising along in most gyros How many gyros have you flown?with the rotors LOADED and you give it more throttle the gyro should gain altitude and nose up slightly . ( I got a feeling that I will have to explain this in a later post). I think others will have to explain it to you Mike:lol:

The problems arise when the rotors become UNLOADED . Apply power to a HTL gyro with rotors unloaded and it will rotoate around the CG and begin the classic PPO. In a true CLT your ATTITUDE will not change but you will begin a verticle decent because of reduced lift. In an LTL you will nose up slightly and begin a verticle decent due to the unloaded rotors --howerver you will probably recover quicker with an LTL as the rotors will load back up faster..I think others will have to explain it to you Mike:lol:

Mike, at the 50 mph,without h/stab, trimmed s/l and ramming the throttle to full power the aircraft will revolve around the CoM. It did and the nose continued to rise slowly and I was losing airspeed.

I am not going to respond as I am far to busy and there are many here who understand well enough to help you out.

Thanks for your posts Mike.

Aussie Paul. :)

[birdy]

I am not going to respond as I am far to busy and there are many here who understand well enough to help you out.

Geez PB, your getn very selective in y old age.:)
On another thread your askn bout how a trimm systm works, gess you still got time to flog others ideas then ay. :(

[Mike Schallmann]

Paul --to put it bluntly --your full of crap! The reason your not going to respond is because you dont understand the principle of CLT /HTL and LTL--I also severely doubt that you understand that a Horizontal Stab immersed in the prop wash is much more effective than placed low on the keel like you have done--



Paul--READ my 1st PARAGRAPH in the previous post --It says the same thing as you said -only slightly different wording --what I explained in the rest of the post was dealing with UNLOADED Rotors--

I have flown at least seven different brands of gyros and a couple of "one designs" some with horiz and some without--

Ive also designed three of my own gyros and I have had a horizontal stab on all of my designs for the past 10 years


Im outta here--good luck in your endeavours --

[SARAF]

Paul , is it not true that some time back your license was revoked because of illegal flying or something similar?

Looks like you are busy with the same stuff again..........

[CLS447]

Paul, I am enjoying your progress !

Keep up the good work & I wish you great success !

Please keep posting reports !

[Fl90]

I think the debate is the result of similarities to a controversial design. Just a thought.

Phil.

[Aussie_Paul]

Paul , is it not true that some time back your license was revoked because of illegal flying or something similar?

Looks like you are busy with the same stuff again..........

No Saraf, my ASRA membership was suspended for 12 monthe due to a paperwork error of flying an unregistered gyro. After that Saraf, I certainly do not operate illegally.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

FWIW, a stable aircraft, with the application of full power should raise the nose and stabilise at a speed that is within 10% of the original trimmed speed. A LTL will continue to raise the nose and keep slowing down, as in my test a couple of days which proved a slightly LTL.

Aussie Paul. :)

[LARRYEBOYER]

Paul. My experience on this forum is that your feel for the flight charactistics won't cut it. Steve Osborne receintly posted his conclusions to the stability of his RAF with a very effective stab only to be told the standards set up by the gyro head know it alls is flawed.Same thing when I finished the stepped keel mod on my RAF last year. Until I did a double hang test, my conclusions don't matter. I do see where Mike has a visual problem with your machine. Looking at it says HTL and a PPO waiting to happen.
I hope your flight tests conclude a successful build, a safe stable gyro, and a successful enterprise for your future.

[mceagle]

FWIW, a stable aircraft, with the application of full power should raise the nose and stabilise at a speed that is within 10% of the original trimmed speed. A LTL will continue to raise the nose and keep slowing down, as in my test a couple of days which proved a slightly LTL.
Aussie Paul. :)I think there are more forces involved here than thrustline offset. My flying egg used to raise the nose and climb on the application of power and it was definately high thrustline. I would imagine that the Magni and the Xenon would do the same.

[GyroRon]

Just do the double hang test Paul... and you too Larry.... and that should put any doubt about it to rest.

flight tests are great, but they need to be done by someone other than the person who is selling or promoting the machine or mods to give it credibilty. I mean think about it, would you believe it if I told you my gyro did this or that just based on my word....? ..... especially if I have something to gain from it or some kind of vested interest?

It may seem like were all a bunch of sour grapes or a bunch of bitchy people, but truth is we all just want this sport to shift to safe designs, flown by educated pilots, and we want and welcome all improvements..... We have just been BS'ed for so long it is hard to take one mans word that something is this or that without hard evidence or facts to back it up.

[Udi]

...Today I flew Firebird without the stabs. Trimmed hands free at 50 mph I rammed the throttle open to full power. The nose rose gently and air speed began to decrease.

Firebird is slightly LTL. The pics will no doubt prove this.

Aussie Paul. :)

Glad to see good progress, Paul!

The above conclusion is correct only if your RRPM remained constant, Paul. When you climb with full power the prop takes part of the load off the rotor. The rotor slows down and the flapping angle increases, which pulls the nose up and slows down the gyro. However, if your RRPM remains constant than your conclusion is most likely correct. I am looking forward to see the double hang test results.

Udi

[Hognose]

First time I read about gyros on the net, there was this guy Bruty who was going to make a great two-seater in Australia... but it never quite came together.

He had partner problems. He had capital problems. Then, he pranged a student's single-seater and was excoriated for it on both sides of the Pacific...got crosswise with the ASRA -- they suspended him which effectively grounded him in OZ and strangled his instruction business... he had to go to NZ to teach. But it's an ill wind that blows no good, and I think a lot of progress was made on Firebird during those twelve months.

A few months back Paul posted photos of several partially completed Firebirds, and I remember thinking, "he might actually get this thing into the air." Then he sold his development machine, "Hybrid," a hacked RAF, and some corners of the Net had him all but dead and buried.

Heh. I think the pictures of Firebird flying reinforce the most important lesson I ever learned in life, which is this: don't quit.

Paul, you never quit, did ya, guy? Congratulations on the first flights of Firebird, and I hope that it meets all of your projections and gives our antipodean gyro pilots another safe and capable option.

Now, who's next... Duncan? Dave Jackson's long-planned helicopter? Larry Neal's Sky Car...? Carter's PAV? This is a GREAT time to be in experimental rotorcraft.

cheers

-=K=-

[Aussie_Paul]

I think there are more forces involved here than thrustline offset. My flying egg used to raise the nose and climb on the application of power and it was definately high thrustline. I would imagine that the Magni and the Xenon would do the same.

Was your flying egg fitted with a stab Tim?

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

Udi, the first thing that happened with the application was the nose rose.

Hybrid was very close to CLT depending on fuel and pilot/passenger weights. The pics were posted.

Firebird has the weight and thrust line arranged to be quite a bit different to Hybrid. What I learnt from Hybrid I put into practice with Firebird. I will publish the pics as soon as Easter is over and I can slow down a little to take the pics. Right now I am strugling to have Firebird ready for a 300 mile cross country to the ASRA National flyin over Easter.

Firebird was designed to be near as dammit to CLT. The mast length will be the fine tuning instrument.

Did some of you think I just hoped for the best??

Aussie Paul. :)

[LARRYEBOYER]

Ron. You ask the question as to whether I would believe someone that had something to gain if that someone made a claim and that claim came from a person who was experienced in that field. The answer is yes.I have easily given away 20 sets of plans for the RAF stepped keel mod. No charge. My hopes were to have safer gyros in the air and less ridicule from some of the bashers. Not sure if that was accomplished, but I tried. You see not everyone has a monetary profit in mind.Maybe just a nobel cause. Paul has worked long and hard to accomplish his mark in the gyro world. Do I believe his claims? He has the credibility. So, Yes. When you said your Dominator was stable, I had no reason to doubt you.Even if you had been a dealer, the exibitions I saw you put on said that was a good flying machine. Yet I never saw the hang test results. Your experienced word was good enough for me.

[Aussie_Paul]

Heh. I think the pictures of Firebird flying reinforce the most important lesson I ever learned in life, which is this: don't quit.

Paul, you never quit, did ya, guy? Congratulations on the first flights of Firebird, and I hope that it meets all of your projections and gives our antipodean gyro pilots another safe and capable option.

Now, who's next... Duncan? Dave Jackson's long-planned helicopter? Larry Neal's Sky Car...? Carter's PAV? This is a GREAT time to be in experimental rotorcraft.

cheers

-=K=-

Thanks Kevin, one option was to quit, BUT, my family and I believed in what I was doing.

I still hope that Firebird will turn out to be what I wanted. A stable, safe, user friendly, and reasonably aesthetic two place gyroplane.

I am not there yet, although conducting the first test flights gives me hope.

Aussie Paul. :)

[WHUBBS]

Paul, i really enjoy reading about your progress and wish you all the success that we know, you deserve. possibly i would not have appreciated the work you have done as much, until i built two machines from a kit, where i only had to follow instruction, but the person that builds the kit and writes the instruction is really the person that i admire. with all the work you have been doing on your project, you have still found time to help folks like myself during our build projects with our kits. sure hope you get into production soon and recoup some of your build, design and test cost.

Wayne

[Aussie_Paul]

Paul, i really enjoy reading about your progress and wish you all the success that we know, you deserve. possibly i would not have appreciated the work you have done as much, until i built two machines from a kit, where i only had to follow instruction, but the person that builds the kit and writes the instruction is really the person that i admire. with all the work you have been doing on your project, you have still found time to help folks like myself during our build projects with our kits. sure hope you get into production soon and recoup some of your build, design and test cost.

Wayne

Thanks Wayne, much appreciated. Yes, we are almost there.:rapture:

Aussie Paul. :)

[Greg Mitchell]

Well Now!

I did ask previously PB about the mast being used to fine tune the relationship of thrustline to C of G and I believe you said NO or dismissed me... then again I could be wrong again.......

Either way, intuitively, I see a high thrustline ship when I look at Firebird......I definitly do not see a LTL ship.

Look forward to checking it out at the Nats.

Cheers,

Mitch