flying a gyro at a air port

[Tina]

I like to hear what other pilots have experienced when flying at a air port with other traffic.

What should a new pilot look for and watch out for in the pattern?

What is the best altitude and best approach? With a radio or with out?

[Steve McGowan]

I've been in controlled areas before, these gyros do not have a radar

signature enuff to be seen, and the Sparrow Hawk witha Transponder

the controller ask, Where Are Ya...

You have to follow all the Rotorcraft Clearance and Avoidance Rules..

You have to tell the Controllers what your ententions are,
( hopefully you being familiar with the area)

Mosta the time they will say... At Your Descretion !!!

any Rotorcraft Driver,,, (whether gyro or helicopter)

that thinks a FW will give way to them is Suicidal


In other words................CYA

At PDK in Atlanta, I've been directed thru Downtown and stopped to see the folks eatting at the Hyatt Regency over Peachtree Street...

Now thats a BLAST..

and it gets REALLLLY Crowded waitin on a seat 75 floors up

[Steve Osborne]

Maybe Chris Burgess could chime in here. He instructs at one of the busiest non-tower airports in Maryland. On a nice day you have 4 or 5 FW waiting to take the active because 3 or 4 are in the pattern. Then you have the R22 guys training 2 or 3 of them using opposite pattern along with a few Gyros. Then on the crosswind RW there will be 2 or 3 gliders and the tow plane rarely talking. Then all the GPS, ILS guys practicing approaches from both ends and to top that off the corporate jets are blasting in an out. All this at the same time. If you want to learn how to deal with all this contact Mr. B you will learn allot. :)

[Steve McGowan]

NOPE............I think I'll drive that day

[mark treidel]

Each airport is different. Its best to get a copy of the AFD & check it out before using it (its required proceedure anyway). For years, we flew out of a very busy class G airport. The g/a traffic pattern was established by that facility at 1000' AGL. Ultralights & gyros flew an 'abbreviated' pattern at 500' AGL and a smaller rectangle (if you will). A few years ago, that same airport became Class D tower controlled. The 500' buffer zone is still in effect & a very good rule of thumb to follow to stay out of the way of larger/faster traffic. I would not venture near any airport without a radio, even if you only use it to monitor position of other traffic. It could save you some real scary moments.

[Steve Osborne]

Check this out, Mr. B airport http://www.airnav.com/airport/KFDK pan about halfway down a check out how many aircraft are based and daily operations.

Seems scary, but it's not. Gyro's are flying there just about every weekend

[Steve Osborne]

Tina, just tell then to get the hell out of your way, you are coming in. Just kidding. This may be helpful http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&Product_ID=10653&DID=19#. VFR communication

[atkinson]

When flying in airport traffic, make damn sure you have a strobe flashing. You need to be seen by others, and gyros are hard to spot.

[Aussie_Paul]

NOPE............I think I'll drive that day

Me to Steve. :lol:

Aussie Paul. :)

[barnstorm2]

I like to hear what other pilots have experienced when flying at a air port with other traffic.

What should a new pilot look for and watch out for in the pattern?

What is the best altitude and best approach? With a radio or with out?

Tina,

I have a fair spot of experience with this considering the short time I have been flying gyros.

I wrote an article about flying gyros in the pattern for Rotorcraft a few years back. I will see if I can scan and post a copy.

Another good document is an FAA circular on ultralights and experimentals that describes how the FAA feels and how they suggest you avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic by flying a lower closer pattern.

I am a huge fan of using a radio. Though not legally required at non-controlled airports I consider a radio a safety MUST. If you came into the pattern and landed without a radio at my airport you would NOT get a warm welcome from the other pilots and would not be setting a good impression of gyros.

For the past three or four years I have flown out of the busiest non-controlled airport in the area. There are several training centers for FW and helo and a collage that operates flight training here. Every weekend lots of unique traffic flys in to Sporty's (a famous pilot shop here) for free hot-dogs and we also have a rich-boys'-club Warbirds Museum here.

I have been in the pattern with a P51 Mustang, a pitts, student pilots, a small jet, a gyro (me), an R44, a moto-glider and an ultralight all in the same few passes.

I once heard a student pilot on one if his first times around the pattern call down to his instructor asking how he should act with me in the pattern. The instructor radioed back that I (the gyro) fly’s the pattern just like everyone else so do nothing different. And that is pretty much right.

I fly the same pattern as the FW traffic but a little lower and a little closer in. This allows me to keep about the same time around the pattern as the faster FW traffic and makes it easy to see me.

I always call out the pattern and my position in it relative to other aircraft I have visual contact with.

A great comment above is strobes. Gyros look odd and are sometimes hard to spot even by experienced FW pilots. I always have my strobes and running lights on in the pattern even when I don't think anyone else is in the pattern.

Maybe it's because gyros are so fun to take off and land but I still love to fly the pattern and I get lots of enjoyment from it.

I used to loath a busy pattern but now I down mind at all (except when I am on the taxiway waiting on an opening to get out).

I hope some of this is what you were looking for.


Oh, and sometimes they think gyros will fly a helicopter approach/pattern. So I tend to make sure I call out my position, intent and the direction of the traffic I am in.

[barnstorm2]

If you follow the link in Steves post (#7) then click on Sporty's — More Than A Pilot Shop you will get info on my airport. Also, try the visit sporty link and Eastern Cincinnati Avation.

[PW_Plack]

Scappoose, Oregon, where Sport Copter is located, can be a challenging place to fly. There is no tower, and things can get busy.

The main runway is used primarily by fixed-wings. The west taxiway is the approved runway for gyros and ultralights. The east taxiway is used extensively by helicopter students. Flying this airport without a radio would increase the risks dramatically.

The three most important things to get communicated are: (1) what you are/look like, (2) where you are, and (3) your intentions.

At Scappoose, there is a separate pattern for ultralights and gyros, 500 feet below and on the opposite side of the airport from the fixed-wingers. We announce "ultralight pattern" so the F/W know we're out of their way. If the place you fly has such an arrangement, make sure you know and observe it!

Part of the whole point of a traffic pattern is to allow an aircraft to remain within glide distance of the runway while setting up and approach. Make your pattern tight enough to keep this option open, and it will allow you to turn a quick base and final when your turn comes. The most irritating feature of gyros (for fixed-wingers) is that they're slow, and often make steep approaches. If you stay in close, you can get down and out of their way quickly.

A real hassle here some days is people pulling out of their hangars and blocking the taxiways when you're on final, and need to LAND on that taxiway. I've taken this as a lesson to get the radio on and be listening before assuming it's OK to pull onto the taxiway.

There was a mid-air here a few years ago when an ultralight took off, and did a steep climb straight up into a gyroplane. The gyro CFI and student, and the ultralight pilot all died. It is a very sobering reminder to me to pay attenton and use the radio.

I cannot imagine an excuse not to have at least a handheld radio, wired correctly and working, when flying at an airport.

[Caribean_gyro]

My 2 cents. First FW see using the radio. SO you must have a good and clear transmition radio. Second follow publish pattern for the airport you are working on. But use the Rotorcraft pattern, if there is non then use opposite patter to FW. In my airport we use right pattern and between 500 to 800 feets.

Before you fly in or drive in. meet the tower guys or some of the locals. introduce your self. ASk them for some advice even if you know the answerd. Just Make them think they are important. Then explain them what you will like to do .

Some pilots(not all) think if you didnt took written ,and check rides you are not a pilot. So they dont treat you with respect. It has taken me time and money to learn and improved my flying to have just the cert. But I have also paved the road for other local gyro pilots so they are not seen as lunatics.

Again fly safe and stay ahead.

ChuckP

[Chris Burgess]

I will add only one thing here. Think of yourself as "invisible". Nobody will see you. So stay out of their way. Never count on them seeing you. I like "inside and low" but 2 times the top of your HVC (height velocity curve) opposite the FW pattern. The FAA seems to like it also. When low, it's much easier to see all the other flying objects. Steve (reference post #3) left out the Goodyear blimp and Presidential visits.

[dragonflyerthom]

It is true. The radio is the best piece of safety equipment you can invest in. We are the motorcycles of the air. Just as we can miss a motorcycle on the roads so the gyros. We go slower than they do, they are looking for something going fast that will catch their peripherals, and they can become irritated with us.

[GyroRon]

You may want to ask the airport manager how they want you to fly in and out of the airport first. As if you fly anything other than the fixed wing pattern - even if your legal to do so - can make some people upset. If you ask first you might be able to keep everyone happy, which is important if you want to keep flying out of that airport.

[Paul_Zurawski]

Everyone here has all made really good points. I am really big on radio communication. But remember, if its an uncontrolled airport, or the tower is closed, there is no requirement for the guy in the other airplane to even have a radio. I always keep my landing light and rotating beacon turned on.

[Steve Osborne]

I remember this one time I was heading into class D air space. My initial call was

Martinsburg tower Experiment Gyroplane 22U

Martinsburg tower, go ahead 22U.

22U 10 miles east of the field @ 1600' inbound for landing.....

22U report 3 mile final RW 26 winds are _____ .

22U report 3 mile final 26.

I had a head wind this day so it was taking a little time to get there, then the tower called

22U report you location and speed.

22U 4 mile final, 50 knots, I had to rewind the rubber band. :o

He then chuckled and said I was wondering what happened, you are cleared to land RW 26.

22U cleared to land 26.

The moral of the story is the controller was not accustom to having small slow flying aircraft at this airport. So now when I enter class D my replay would be.... 22U 10 miles east of the field @ 1600' .....slow flying.....inbound for landing..... Also they tend to talk fast, so if you do not understand what they have said. Just ask them to please repeat and if you still are having problems. Just use the words....Student Pilot please repeat..... They will slow down, works every time. This also will work well at non tower airport. Something like

Experimental Gyroplane, Student Pilot, entering a left down wind RW____

The Fix-Wing guys tend to have a little more patience because it reminds them they were once a student.

I also have been flying the pattern reporting my position and on a short final had a Fix-Wing start to pull out on the RW. I keyed up and said, Aircraft pulling on RW 23, do you see the Gyro on final? He then slammed on his breaks and said sorry, I though you would be landing in the grass like the other Helicopters.. In my eyes a radio is a must at any airport. :)

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

When some distance from the airport and your ground speed is quite low all you need do is give your estimated time of arirval at the end of your transmission so the others on that frequency will understand you are slow moving.

( landing xxx estimating the airport at :30 )

This is standard stuff.

[Harry_S.]

When some distance from the airport and your ground speed is quite low all you need do is give your estimated time of arirval at the end of your transmission so the others on that frequency will understand you are slow moving.

( landing xxx estimating the airport at :30 )

This is standard stuff.



Thank you for that professional stuff...we're mostly amateurs, here on this forum. By the way, for us amateur gyro pilots...does that :30 mean 30 seconds or 30 minutes?!

In gyro speak, it would more than likely mean 30 minutes. :humble:


.

[Fl90]

Easy now, these are all sujestions to be used at the comfort of the gyro-pilot with the bullseye painted on his/her tail feathers.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Harry, I am aware of your revulsion for pilots who fly for a living.

So I will try and help you because you as an amateur do not seem to be able to grasp how position reports are given.

Ten miles west would mean 10 nautical miles from the airport.

Estimating at :30 would mean thirty minutes past the present hour.

If you were flying with a ground speed of 60 knots you would have given that position report at twenty four minutes after that hour.

Would it be possible for me to make just one post that does not upset you?

[Jimmy]

A couple more thoughts :
- you can't always count on the FW'ers to actually be where they say they are. Early on I was wrapped up in what I was doing in the pattern and to some extent just trusted in what they broadcasted. But after a few close calls I really try to get a visual on all traffic including inbound aircraft.

- not all the FW'ers are broadcasting or listening to you, so you have to watch out for them both in the air & on the ground. & don't assume they'll actually use the active runway.

[Tina]

All this response is really good stuff to go by. I will diffidently use a radio. I will check Hemet and French Valley airport managers what they think I should do when entering the pattern.

I do think flying the ultralight pattern wi ll be the best, that is 500feet AGL and announce I am a experimental gyro-plane inbound to take the runway for landing.

I will look for other aircraft and remember they may not see me so expect all the aircraft to go right in front of me so to stay clear.

The only one I know that fly a gyro at these airports is Scott Heger I will check with him when I am ready to see what his advice is on this.

I still have to get my gyro airworthy cert and the N-numbers assigned to my gyro. Then I am good to go. Oh ya maybe a little more training at El Mirage first, again I am getting ahead of my self ;)

[Harry_S.]

Would it be possible for me to make just one post that does not upset you?



Yep, very possible...I think, but, I'm not the one that gets upset, ay?!

Relax...take another little Blue one.


Cheers

[rgraffeo]

Tina,
I did like Ron suggested & talked to the airport manager. He suggested I fly the ultralight pattern & use the taxiway to free up the runway. One day I did this & one of the fixed wing pilots questioned me about using the taxiway.
I told him about the manager & he said "what ---- does he know".

So I learned to be flexable & follow what the others do in the pattern. Most of the time I get out of their way & allow them to land ahead of me. I also found if you stay in radio contact near the airport everyone is happy.

[barnstorm2]

So I learned to be flexable & follow what the others do in the pattern. Most of the time I get out of their way & allow them to land ahead of me. I also found if you stay in radio contact near the airport everyone is happy.

This has also been my experience. People don't like the unexpected and the pattern is no differn't.

I follow the fixed wing pattern I just stay lower and in tight so that my "lap speed" is about the same as theirs. As far as landing time goes we can land just as quick or quicker. Just make a short final of it (and announce a short final) and don't touch down until you are near the taxiway. Then you are off of the active in just a few seconds.

[scottessex]

I will look for other aircraft and remember they may not see me so expect all the aircraft to go right in front of me so to stay clear.

I'll sell you one of my smoker kits! They will see you for sure in the pattern then!
:yo: :yo:

What made me realize how dificult a gyro is to see was when I went up in another aircraft (cessna) and we flew around, and the gyro's were almost invisable against the ground cluter.

[Steve Osborne]

This is from the AOPA web site. It has allot of information regarding Operations at Nontowerered Airports

http://download.aopa.org/epilot/2006/sa08.pdf

[Timchick]

... and don't touch down until you are near the taxiway. Then you are off of the active in just a few seconds.

Great tip.

[Steve Osborne]

I'll sell you one of my smoker kits! They will see you for sure in the pattern then!
:yo: :yo:

With the ADIZ and the big mans retreat so close, if I used one of them there smoker kits I would more then likely be shot down. :)

[KenSandyEggo]

Steve, one comment on your call-up. On your initial call up to a tower, don't just make contact, also state your intentions as: "Doohinkle tower, this is experimental gyro 123 CU 5 miles west, inbound for landing" (with ATIS "charlie" or whatever if applicable). This eliminates one exchange between you and the tower, especially if the traffic is heavy.

[magilla]

I am a blackhawk driver by day, and a renegade (wannabe) gyrodriver at other times.

I have NEVER had a problem at towered airports requesting an approach to the parallel taxiway or the adjacent sod strip to clear the runway for FW.

Similarly, have never had a problem at busy non-towered airports announcing my intentions and doing the same thing.

Why could we not shoot the approach to the parallel taxiway with a gyro????? it only makes sense, as we do not require 500 feet to land.

Next question: I have requested "Present Position" departures with a helo not being on the runway pretty much as a rule of thumb - as in ALWAYS, unless taking off IFR. I take off from the parallel, the sod, heck, even parking pads sometimes...towered airports want me to get the heck out of their pattern and airspace.

Why could gyros not do the same kind of take off at towered airports, and announce intentions at non-towered airports?? - i.e., take off and go whatever heading you want. It's not such a crazy idea - read below.

When I was in Iraq, we changed the airspace around all of the airports in theater - the Air Force controllers had a habit of shutting down the Class D whenever there was a rocket or mortar attack, leaving NUMEROUS helos stranded hovering outside of the 5nm ring. Ridiculous, as the Air Force was more concerned with sweeping the runway clear of debris. We waited until the 10,000 foot runway and taxiways had their FOD checks completed...and we were in helicopters, that could land anywhere!!!

We changed all that - split the 5nm circle into eight 45 degree wedges, each with an alphanumeric label. Sector Alpha,Bravo, Charlie, etc. Two sectors were split 22.5 degrees on each side of the centerline, allowing the heavies to land (C-5, C-17, etc), while the RW took off and landed using the other six sectors and stayed away from the FW traffic. Imagine a typical 8 slice pie, and lay it down on top of the runway with the top and bottom slices being cut in half by the runway...

Worked miraculously. At the seven airports and helipads we ran in Iraq, we logged over one million traffic movements in a year with no incidents (other than one RW running into a UAV that had lost control).

If we had an attack, then the tower would shut down that sector, send in the armed helos, and everyone else would stay out.

Easy to depict, too - just put an 8-slice pie on top of the runway, with the runway bisecting two slices.

It is now the DoD approved method to integrate FW and RW at the same airport.

I think we should use the same thing at civilian airports. It's brilliant.

[PW_Plack]

magilla said...

Why could we shoot the approach to the parallel taxiway with a gyro????? it only makes sense, as we do not require 500 feet to land.

What happens if you hit some FW while landing on a taxiway, because he pulled out of his hangar with the radio off?

If airport management has prepared tenants for the idea that small aircraft may be landing on taxiways, and published that procedure in the AFD so transient aircraft will also know, go for it and be careful. If not, you can't just assume it's OK.

Don't make yourself part of the gyroplane image problem!

[magilla]

Paul -

I have never flown a gyro (yet), and will strive to maintain the utmost professionalism when I do, as I understand that we suffer from an image problem...

I just thought it was accepted practice for RW to land AT THE APPROACH END of a parallel taxiway (not anywhere in-between) to expedite FW traffic that has to taxi...

Please correct me if I am wrong. I figured gyroplanes, being RW, would be under the same guidelines.

Stay in the traffic pattern (albeit lower and closer) but when turning final, shoot for the end of the parallel taxiway...

[Fl90]

Magilla, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I land on the runway within 20 feet of the taxiway I want to use. That gets me out of the way quickly. The only exception to that is a crosswind, then I'll land on the turnoff to the taxiway.

[Dean_Dolph]

This is off topic but just for the record, Spencer, Chapter 6 is not a new startup. It shared the same status as Chapter 40 and Richard and Thom have resusitated it!

[Robert G. Stark]

I manage Olney, Texas airport. I welcome gyros and all formes of aircraft. Gyros should fly lower than the standard pattern and do a very good job of looking. Airplanes have the right of way over rotorcraft because rotorcraft are more mauneverable than airplanes. Gliders have right of way over airplanes for the same reason. I have never been able to do a go round in a glider. Lighter than air has right of way over all. Any aircraft in distress has right of way, just make sure your distress is real. Communicating on the radio is a VERY good idea. Announce your position in the pattern and state your intentions so others will know where to look for you and what you plan to do.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Tina. Just tell them a female pilot would like the road!!! That does it for me!

[Tina]

Paul -
I just thought it was accepted practice for RW to land AT THE APPROACH END of a parallel taxiway (not anywhere in-between) to expedite FW traffic that has to taxi...
..


That sounds great I will check with my airport managers if I can do just that land at the end of the taxi way. I only fly FW up to this point at airports. Not really sure what RW aircraft do. All I ever really notice is the fly low and come in to land on the grass or heli pad.

[Steve Osborne]

FAA Advisory Circular 90-66A. Page 6 # 9 Other Traffic Patterns, address Gyroplanes

www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/74c9017c9457e4ab862569d800780551/$FILE/AC90-66A.pdf

[Caribean_gyro]

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap4/aim0401.html#4-1-5

go to this link It will give you all the inf. you need. But as I said previously, pay them a visit and introduce your self , eye to eye helps a lot.

chuckP

[reelmule]

In addition to using your landing lights in the pattern it is helpful to wire in a wig-wag blinker system such as used on emergency vehicles. I also have Whelen strobes but from the front the wig wag is better seen.
Walt G.

[Harry_S.]

I agree with Walt on the wig wag.

I don't have lights on my machine but I endorse the wig wag concept even if you only have one landing light. With just one light it would be a *blinker* but it would be more noticeable...eye catching...over a steady beam.

The wig wag has caught my eye from about 5 miles away...during daytime.


Cheers :)